Supersonic+ Kyogai

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Well, there's a few things to consider. First, he very clearly low diffs them. Second, I'm pretty sure those aren't lower moons, they're regular demons that have been enhanced to be at the level of a lower moon demon. Finally, Kyogai is no longer a lower moon and there's no proof he has the level of power required to be one anymore, especially considering it's been a while since he was strong enough to be 6. It's entirely possible the Infinity Castle Demons are stronger and faster then Kyogai, considering they should be stronger and faster then Lower Moon 6, the replacement for him.

The Lower Moons in the IC were also supposed to drain the slayers staminas. Muzan also had a lot of prep time to make them lower moons.

Murata himself was also one of the only demon slayers capable of even reaching Gyomei’s training and completing every other hashiras training.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Tanjiro via his smelly power reading ability thinks he's the strongest in the house, feels like it comes down to plot-induced stupidity at that point cause gotoge needed the dude to get the drum

Again, could just be difference of technique vs cqc. Kyogai's just a technique merchant, he can only be stronger through his mini infinity castle constantly messing with people's balance + spamming his transonic attacks via drumming. You walk up to him and he cries. Being a more powerful demon doesn't mean you outstat them, especially since I think Kyogai's technique makes him superior to the two other demons in the house and also the two Tanjiro fought with Tamayo. Not his actual stats.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Finally, Kyogai is no longer a lower moon and there's no proof he has the level of power required to be one anymore, especially considering it's been a while since he was strong enough to be 6

He needed to have the strength needed to be a lower moon for him be ranked in the first place. He got demoted cause he couldn't get any stronger, not that he gotten too weak

 

[Lilybitdun]

Again, could just be difference of technique vs cqc. Kyogai's just a technique merchant, he can only be stronger through his mini infinity castle constantly messing with people's balance + spamming his transonic attacks via drumming. You walk up to him and he cries. Being a more powerful demon doesn't mean you outstat them, especially since I think Kyogai's technique makes him superior to the two other demons in the house and also the two Tanjiro fought with Tamayo. Not his actual stats.

What exactly do you think is being portrayed by him having the strongest scent here

 

[Catbowtie]

...self-explanatory? I get what you're trying to hint at but it's not concrete. Kyogai's just the strongest demon there.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Yeah so he is superior to the two demons in the house not just from technique but in overall capabilities

 

[Catbowtie]

Oh. Idk what other people are talking about but BDA demons >> regular demons + demons already vary their dura so...

 

[DragoZeroNova]

He needed to have the strength needed to be a lower moon for him be ranked in the first place. He got demoted cause he couldn't get any stronger, not that he gotten too weak

What exactly do you think is being portrayed by him having the strongest scent here

He needed it at the time. Just because he couldn't get any stronger doesn't mean all other demons couldn't get stronger too. There's no proof that the weakest Lower Moon at the time is around Kyogai's level of strength. For all we know, Lower Moon 6 could've been twice as strong. Likewise, if Kyogai had hit his limits, that doesn't mean other non-moons have hit their limits. I'll just throw out a year-20. Let's say he hasn't gotten stronger in 20 years. Just because he hasn't gotten weaker doesn't mean he's not falling behind.

What I think is that he's overall the demon with the greatest connection to Muzan. It is implied that at his full power, he could beat either of the two demons. That doesn't not mean he is faster and physically more capable then the two, especially with proof his cqc skills aren't the greatest. WITH HIS TECHNIQUE, he could probably mop those two easy even in a 2v1, but man has no skill (skillstomp victim) and he doesn't necessarily have the same stats (could easily be relative though). I'm not say he's 10x slower or anything, but he could have half the speed (or even less) as the Slasher Demon with no issues. As for the other demons, I honestly don't think they have the same speed as the Slasher Demon either so /shrug. Those demons are also fodder imo.

 

[Lilybitdun]

this injured Tanjiro can dodge Inosuke's attacks who has a Likely scale to a healthy Tanjiro's speed, he doesn't seem to be as nerfed from the injury as people are suggesting tbh (tl;dr Tanjiro shouldn't be like 3.65x slower than normal)

 

[Lilybitdun]

He needed it at the time. Just because he couldn't get any stronger doesn't mean all other demons couldn't get stronger too. There's no proof that the weakest Lower Moon at the time is around Kyogai's level of strength. For all we know, Lower Moon 6 could've been twice as strong. Likewise, if Kyogai had hit his limits, that doesn't mean other non-moons have hit their limits. I'll just throw out a year-20. Let's say he hasn't gotten stronger in 20 years. Just because he hasn't gotten weaker doesn't mean he's not falling behind.

Is there proof that non-kizuki demons are getting stronger than previous lower moon 6s, this just seems like speculation

It is implied that at his full power, he could beat either of the two demons.

Kyogai is still at full power, he's only gotten stagnant. There's no implication that he got weaker

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Is there proof that non-kizuki demons are getting stronger than previous lower moon 6s, this just seems like speculation

Kyogai is still at full power, he's only gotten stagnant. There's no implication that he got weaker

It's the other way around. Is there proof that all demons somehow haven't gotten any stronger? Like, Muzan expelled Kyogai because he COULDN'T get stronger and another demon eventually took the spot. If that demon couldn't get any stronger either, Muzan wouldn't have accepted it. I'm not saying all demons are suddenly stronger then Kyogai, I'm saying his former Lower Moon status can't be used to guarantee complete superiority over all non-moon demons. In comparison, Rui's status as a Lower Moon can be used as a sign of superiority over all non-moon demons, especially since he's around the level of 1-2. Kyogai can only really be put with his feats and probably general relativity to other demons. We know his h2h is not better then other demons, he sucks at that. Maybe it's less power, maybe it's less speed, maybe he just ******* sucks, but we can't assert all aspects of Kyogai>non-moons. However, we can assert his blood has a closer connection to Muzan and out of all the currently non-moon demons, he's definitely strong and his technique is amazing and in a fight with it, he's certainly more dangerous then all demons Tanjiro previously killed.

When I said full power, I meant using his technique instead of just hands cause he's a bum with those.

 

[Lilybitdun]

It's the other way around. Is there proof that all demons somehow haven't gotten any stronger? Like, Muzan expelled Kyogai because he COULDN'T get stronger and another demon eventually took the spot. If that demon couldn't get any stronger either, Muzan wouldn't have accepted it. I'm not saying all demons are suddenly stronger then Kyogai, I'm saying his former Lower Moon status can't be used to guarantee complete superiority over all non-moon demons. In comparison, Rui's status as a Lower Moon can be used as a sign of superiority over all non-moon demons, especially since he's around the level of 1-2. Kyogai can only really be put with his feats and probably general relativity to other demons. We know his h2h is not better then other demons, he sucks at that. Maybe it's less power, maybe it's less speed, maybe he just ******* sucks, but we can't assert all aspects of Kyogai>non-moons. However, we can assert his blood has a closer connection to Muzan and out of all the currently non-moon demons, he's definitely strong and his technique is amazing and in a fight with it, he's certainly more dangerous then all demons Tanjiro previously killed.

When I said full power, I meant using his technique instead of just hands cause he's a bum with those.

All this proves is that a new lower moon rank 6 could be stronger be Kyogai. Asking for proof that all demons somehow haven't gotten stronger than past lower moon 6s is burden of proof fallacy
His previous rank of lower moon 6 should still mean he's stronger than non-moon demons as that's the entire point of twelve kizuki

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Again, you keep misreading my words.

Three seperate things:

All, or at least most demons have gotten stronger except Kyogai.

Kyogai may not be at the same level as Lower Moon 6 anymore.

It's possible that some demons are now relative BASED ON THEIR FEATS.

As a reminder, the Father Spider Demon was thought to be a lower moon (by Tanjiro, who just fought Kyogai) and big random demon overpowered Kyogai in close quarters. He is obviously not a physical powerhouse, but with his technique, he's still fairly strong (stronger then the big random demon at least).

Kyogai is obviously more powerful then the demons in his mansion, the demons Tanjiro fought with Tamayo, the swamp demons, the hand demons and the other fodder Tanjiro has fought. However, that doesn't mean he has to have more AP/Speed then all non-moons. He's probably relative to the stronger non-moons, sure. But that doesn't mean he can be scaled in speed to the Slasher Demon imo.

Again, I also don't think any of the other demons should scale to the Slasher Demon aside from the active moons. I am okay with scaling Kyogai to all other non-moons demons except for Slasher in Speed and Father Spider in Strength and possibly Speed. If the other non-moons demons scale to the Father Spider or Slasher Demon right now, I don't think that's right.

 

[Lilybitdun]

All, or at least most demons have gotten stronger except Kyogai.

Again, need to show why this is the case

Kyogai may not be at the same level as Lower Moon 6 anymore.

Kyogai hasn't been implied to have gotten any weaker

It's possible that some demons are now relative BASED ON THEIR FEATS.

That's literally the reason I made this thread

However, that doesn't mean he has to have more AP/Speed then all non-moons. He's probably relative to the stronger non-moons, sure. But that doesn't mean he can be scaled in speed to the Slasher Demon imo.

Again, I also don't think any of the other demons should scale to the Slasher Demon aside from the active moons. I am okay with scaling Kyogai to all other non-moons demons except for Slasher in Speed and Father Spider in Strength and possibly Speed. If the other non-moons demons scale to the Father Spider or Slasher Demon right now, I don't think that's right.

You need reasons why only some of the lower moons would upscale the slasher demon and not all of them. The Kizuki are meant by Muzan to be stronger than non-kizuki demons like the slasher demon
The Spider Father isn't an anti-feat either since the spider family was empowered by Rui, a lower moon 1-2 level character, with his blood

Even if you don't think he directly upscales the slasher demon he still scales to tanjiro (which I already brought up shouldn't be significantly slower than normal) who does scale to Supersonic+ even tho he's calls Kyogai's transonic attacks so fast in his inner thoughts

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Again, need to show why this is the case

Kyogai hasn't been implied to have gotten any weaker

That's literally the reason I made this thread

You need reasons why only some of the lower moons would upscale the slasher demon and not all of them. The Kizuki are meant by Muzan to be stronger than non-kizuki demons like the slasher demon
The Spider Father isn't an anti-feat either since the spider family was empowered by Rui, a lower moon 1-2 level character, with his blood

Even if you don't think he directly upscales the slasher demon he still scales to tanjiro (which I already brought up shouldn't be significantly slower than normal) who does scale to Supersonic+ even tho he's calls Kyogai's transonic attacks so fast in his inner thoughts

I don't need to show this. Demons get stronger by eating blood and Kyogai couldn't get stronger by eating blood???

I have never said Kyogai got weaker. I am saying that the Lower Moons are now stronger, based on the fact that THEY WEREN'T EXPELLED!

I HAVE NOT SAID ANY OF THE LOWER MOONS DON'T UPSCALE FROM THE SLASHER DEMON! I speculated that maybe you could argue the new Lower 6, but even that's probably not the case. KYOGAI IS NOT AN LOWER MOON ANYMORE! He can't be treated the same way as the Lower Moons.

If you're just going to replace what I said with something else entirely, I'm not entertaining this conversation anymore. It's gone from a debate to genuinely infuriating.

 

[Lilybitdun]

I don't get what you are trying to say then cause it's either all the lower moons upscale the slasher demon or they don't
You can't arbitrarily decide only the higher ones upscale from vibes alone when it's always been Kizuki demons > regular BDA demons

 

[Machmatej]

I can see the argument from both sides. Slasher is a demon whose BDA is specifically speed augmentation. Kyogai got kicked out of the Lower Moons because he reached his limit, and could no longer rival other moons. You could argue that Slasher is a special case and that Kyogai wouldn't be using attacks that are 3-4 times slower than himself. But you could also just say that Kyogai being an ex Lower 6 is enough to upscale him.

I think a "Possibly Supersonic+" could work here.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I don't get what you are trying to say then cause it's either all the lower moons upscale the slasher demon or they don't
You can't arbitrarily decide only the higher ones upscale from vibes alone when it's always been Kizuki demons > regular BDA demons

I HAVE NOT SAID ANY OF THE LOWER MOONS DON'T UPSCALE FROM THE SLASHER DEMON!

Enough. Kyogai is not a Lower Moon. Stop. Rewriting. My. Statements.
If you want to argue against an imaginary person, then do so in your own time. I'm leaving this thread, you clearly have created another person to debate with.

 

[Lilybitdun]

I can see the argument from both sides. Slasher is a demon whose BDA is specifically speed augmentation. Kyogai got kicked out of the Lower Moons because he reached his limit, and could no longer rival other moons. You could argue that Slasher is a special case and that Kyogai wouldn't be using attacks that are 3-4 times slower than himself. But you could also just say that Kyogai being an ex Lower 6 is enough to upscale him.

I think a "Possibly Supersonic+" could work here.

Even if we said his status as an ex-lower 6 doesn't scale him to slasher's BDA, he would still get a Supersonic+ rating from Tanjiro due to this

this injured Tanjiro can dodge Inosuke's attacks who has a Likely scale to a healthy Tanjiro's speed, he doesn't seem to be as nerfed from the injury as people are suggesting tbh (tl;dr Tanjiro shouldn't be like 3.65x slower than normal)

Which is weird if Tanjiro is saying his transonic attacks are "so fast" in his thoughts

 

[Catbowtie]

At this point you’re just circling right around to the same statements again.

snip

This is a misrepresentation and completely incomparable

Tanjiro had done no fighting between the point of entering the mansion and up to the moment Inosuke had attacked him. It wasn’t even a fight. I think Inosuke had tried to strike him maybe two times. None of his injuries were aggravated and he already has some pain tolerance to endure.

Now compare that to Kyogai rotating the room over and over again, forcing Tanjiro to dodge invisible claw strikes, and Tanjiro admitting he just might die because of his injuries.

Having a 4x speed advantage over something doesn’t mean anything when you can barely move your body because of pain, especially when said attack just spawns on your location and is invisible.

 

[Lilybitdun]

forcing Tanjiro to dodge invisible claw strikes, and Tanjiro admitting he just might die because of his injuries.
(...)especially when said attack just spawns on your location and is invisible.

that's literally not how the claw attacks work at all

 

[Catbowtie]

Just read the chapter. Tanjiro wasn’t even talking about the speed of the claw attack. He was talking about the speed of the room rotation lol.

Yes, those claw attacks were literally spawning on Tanjiro’s location. As in, they don’t travel a distance from Kyogai to Tanjiro. The attack begins at Tanjiro’s location, and he jumps out of the way before it can fully travel.

Tanjiro was even more nerfed than I think. He straight up says “Yea my legs could give out at any time if I’m not careful” LOL

 

[Catbowtie]

Wait Lily you just posted the same scan

 

[Lilybitdun]

Just read the chapter. Tanjiro wasn’t even talking about the speed of the claw attack. He was talking about the speed of the room rotation lol.

Yes, those claw attacks were literally spawning on Tanjiro’s location. As in, they don’t travel a distance from Kyogai to Tanjiro. The attack begins at Tanjiro’s location, and he jumps out of the way before it can fully travel.

Tanjiro was even more nerfed than I think. He straight up says “Yea my legs could give out at any time if I’m not careful” LOL

He literally says "So fast!! This speed of the spin and attack is way too strong!!"
That's blatantly referring to both the room spinning and the claw attacks

We literally see the claw attacks travel, they have to or the whole reaching him at the same time as the drum's sound makes absolutely no sense

 

[Catbowtie]

Uh, yea Lily. The force of the rotational attack is too strong for his injured body to cope with lol.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Yeah so the constant dodging + his body slamming against the room from the spinning is causing him to lose stamina and will eventually end up getting him killed if he doesn't change strats
that's why he needed to do the water breathing thing in the first place

his injury literally doesn't disprove anything

 

[Catbowtie]

“I can die because of the pain from my injuries”

 

[Lilybitdun]

"I can die because my pain might cause me to lose my strength and make me unable to dodge"

 

[Catbowtie]

"I can die because my pain might cause me to lose my strength and make me unable to dodge"

You just conceded your entire argument brah you want to quickly edit that or…

 

[Lilybitdun]

No cause I didn't concede shit

 

[Catbowtie]

Our entire point was that Tanjiro was struggling with Kyogai’s attacks because he was injured and too fast for his injured body to keep up with.

 

[Lilybitdun]

The whole injury point is really bad when 99% of demon slayer fights are slayers fighting at their best despite their horrendous physical condition

 

[Catbowtie]

Whataboutism. That does not pertain to to this situation and does not prove anything, especially when you’re trying to take the feats of stronger characters and apply them to weaker ones.

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

The whole injury point is really bad when 99% of demon slayer fights are slayers fighting at their best despite their horrendous physical condition

that's a whole other point, at that specific fight the injuries explicitly hampered his ability to fight and disallowed him from using any breathing forms (until he figured out how to use them later into the fight)