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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

Phoenks said:
Guys I have noticed many slight issues with the Slime verse that I feel like might be wanking the verse a bit.

I have some concerns but I will start with some minor things that have been bugging me.

  • Why do Spiritual Lifeforms have type 5 immortality? Overcoming death via willpower is supernatural willpower, not existing outside the concept of death itself.

  • Why does LN Rimiru have high regeneration in slime key? He has not demonstrated anything above Low-High, and the statements used do no support molecular regeneration.

  • Why do you guys treat Information Particles as genuine Info Type 2 when they seem to have measurable, physical mass and size as said in the very scans you guys use to say they have Information Type 2? This just seems like Quantum manipulation to me tbh. I recall seeing in another thread that they had an actual finite value (Something like 0.000001 or whatever) ascribed to them as well. I will try and find that.

  • Why is magic treated as this extremely esoteric law and concept warping ability in the verse. Just being able to bypass "laws" doesn't mean you have law manipulation. The magic page describes magic as being "The ability to allow manipulating aspects of reality (or all of them), bypassing the known laws of physics." I haven't seen anything in Tensei Slime that actually goes outside of that definition so far. Magic is literally inherently the ability to manifest things that break the laws of worlds.


  • Generally I'd also like to specifically see the evidence for Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation because I have some concerns.


That's all for now! I just wanted to see if you guys could explain some things.
Click to expand...
First of all, have you read the description pages we make for this sort of thing? There is a purpose for creating such pages.

About the first question

I said in the thread where this upgrade was accepted that I did not accept immortality type 5 for all Spiritual Lifeforms, that it should be listed as just supernatural willpower, but I guess I'll be playing the devil's advocate here.

Of course, I'll wait for you to take a look at the description pages first, because it sure looks like you haven't.

About the second question

I'll be clear here, yes actually looking at the scans there is no conclusive proof that Ultraspeed Regeneration is at the molecular level and therefore it needs to be revised at some point, but based on the scans I see no reason to object to a possible rating as well and so if a content revision is created that is what I would support there will still be at least Low-High, possibly High regeneration.

About other questions

If you ignore some dead links on the pages that need to be fixed, and the incorrect statements made during the application of type 1 conceptual manipulation as a result of the last accepted content revision, I think the explanation pages explain your remaining questions very well. If there are places where you have difficulty connecting even after reading all the pages, feel free to ask.
 
Phoenks said:
It doesn't. It just says they can overcome death via will. That's supernatural willpower.

More than that, there are scans that actually contradict Type 5. For example, this scan, this scan, and this scan refer to them being killed or dying. If they can normally just die then they don't exist outside of life and death. That's contradictory.
Click to expand...
For the first scan it is true that it is quite relevant but for the other scans it is not specified how they died. The alter ego's death is not described in the second scan. He may have been a victim of existence erasure. Guy also killing the high human can also be through existence erasure. Demons have a wide range of skills like Diablo who completely canceled the reincarnation of the demon Orthos

Phoenks said:
My point is that all magic manipulates physical laws to some extent. So I wanted to see if there are any particular scans where someone changes a law in such a way that it affects the laws areas of influence.
Click to expand...
The problem is that in the majority of anime, magic is just used without explanation so it just seems that they make phenomena appear through magic. In the justification you see that law manipulation is done thanks to the insertion of the will into the magicules. I have seen other verses where there was mana and other types of energy and law manipulation was accepted for the fact that these energies allow one to break laws or manipulate them to create phenomena in the world
 
I think even Demi-Spiritual Lifeforms who have the "Ultraspeed Regeneration" skill can get Low Godly Regeneration.

Ultraspeed Regeneration: Provides the user with incredible regenerative properties far superior to those offered by self-regeneration. Any injuries and damage that do not instantly kill the user can be regenerated very quickly.

Demi-Spiritual Lifeform: Although semi-spiritual lifeforms are extremely close to spiritual lifeforms in nature, they are still inferior in one key aspect: their mortality. If the spiritual body of a semi-spiritual life form is destroyed, then they die forever, having failed to escape the limitations of their body and cheat death.
 
I will double check the pages. Also, I am not planning a CRT I am simply curious about some things. So no need to be hostile or anything I'm just checking stuff.
 
Phoenks said:
I will double check the pages. Also, I am not planning a CRT I am simply curious about some things. So no need to be hostile or anything I'm just checking stuff.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we arent hostile, just wanted to point out some stuff, i know you only had questions, but just saying, we have a general explanation page for misconceptions
 
Phoenks said:
So no need to be hostile or anything I'm just checking stuff
Click to expand...
You may have been tagged a little too many times, there's nothing we can do about it, but apart from that, I haven't seen anyone take a hostile attitude.
Phoenks said:
Also, I am not planning a CRT I am simply curious about some things.
Click to expand...
Even if you're not planning on crt, don't hesitate to talk about things you find questionable, my first priority right now is really to clear the verse from wank and increase the credibility of profiles.
 
CodeCCLL said:
You may have been tagged a little too many times, there's nothing we can do about it, but apart from that, I haven't seen anyone take a hostile attitude.

Even if you're not planning on crt, don't hesitate to talk about things you find questionable, my first priority right now is really to clear the verse from wank and increase the credibility of profiles.
Click to expand...
Please someone respond to my comment and tell me: No, it doesn't work like that, tell me 🤓

I want you to stop my mind...
 
Phoenks said:
Which CRT concerned the concept type 1?
Click to expand...
vsbattles.com

Upgrade for Spiritual Lifeforms [TenSura]

Lets get straight to the point this time, and avoid derailing the thread with useless arguments or comments. With that done, lets begin Concept Type 1 Upgrade Currently, we have Spiritual Lifeforms as Type 2 Concepts based of this : Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - Elemental...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

TenSura Revision [LN]

This thread will be a series of upgrades[as well as degrades] from small changes to major ones. Please keep the discussion civil, avoid toxic behavior as well as derailing! With that, lets begin with the proposals --Upgrades-- Change of wording for Regeneration So, I've noticed that Rimuru...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
These two are important for the Type 1 Concept.
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
By the way, can you tell me what things seem questionable to you to see if we have the same coincidence?
Click to expand...
I can't compile them all right now. If you take a look at the history of the general discussion thread, you can see that talks about things that I and many others are not happy with.
 
Ok, but please respond to my comment about Ultraspeed Regeneration.

I think even Demi-Spiritual Lifeforms who have the "Ultraspeed Regeneration" skill can get Low Godly Regeneration.

Ultraspeed Regeneration: Provides the user with incredible regenerative properties far superior to those offered by self-regeneration. Any injuries and damage that do not instantly kill the user can be regenerated very quickly.

Demi-Spiritual Lifeform: Although semi-spiritual lifeforms are extremely close to spiritual lifeforms in nature, they are still inferior in one key aspect: their mortality. If the spiritual body of a semi-spiritual life form is destroyed, then they die forever, having failed to escape the limitations of their body and cheat death.
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
Ok, but please respond to my comment about Ultraspeed Regeneration.

I think even Demi-Spiritual Lifeforms who have the "Ultraspeed Regeneration" skill can get Low Godly Regeneration.

Ultraspeed Regeneration: Provides the user with incredible regenerative properties far superior to those offered by self-regeneration. Any injuries and damage that do not instantly kill the user can be regenerated very quickly.

Demi-Spiritual Lifeform: Although semi-spiritual lifeforms are extremely close to spiritual lifeforms in nature, they are still inferior in one key aspect: their mortality. If the spiritual body of a semi-spiritual life form is destroyed, then they die forever, having failed to escape the limitations of their body and cheat death.
Click to expand...
We've discussed this before as far as I remember and I had no problem with this.
 
Now that I see conversations from the past of this Thread...

What happened to all those people? 🥺

I see that the Thread was previously friendly.
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
Now that I see conversations from the past of this Thread...

What happened to all those people? 🥺

I see that the Thread was previously friendly.
Click to expand...
Some are still here, some are not much interested in the verse anymore, some have left the wiki, eventually, our conversations will become history like theirs.
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
Non-existent creation? What? Does that even exist in the verse? 🤔
Click to expand...
The end, sub space, nothingness
It comes with several names, i believe nothing was there before Veldanava, and exist as part of God, Veldanava didn't create nonexistence, its been there since the beginning, so it should be removed
Turn null is also derived from that place so...
 
I see, I think you have to do it yourself since you made a CRT for that, right? Ulitma Reality (Jozaysmith?), but I think Rimuru can still maintain those things because he can create everything 🤔
 
Phoenks said:
Guys I have noticed many slight issues with the Slime verse that I feel like might be wanking the verse a bit.

I have some concerns but I will start with some minor things that have been bugging me.

  • Why do Spiritual Lifeforms have type 5 immortality? Overcoming death via willpower is supernatural willpower, not existing outside the concept of death itself.
Click to expand...
They cannot experience normal death
Phoenks said:
https://gyazo.com/f90db331bf4a5798ab0dc547059cdd9c
  • Why does LN Rimiru have high regeneration in slime key? He has not demonstrated anything above Low-High, and the statements used do no support molecular regeneration.
Click to expand...
First off, around this much temperature is required to disintegrate even atoms, and it was basically stated that even if Rimuru's underlings[Ogres] combined all their abilities, it still wouldn't be enough to kill the Orc Lord off, where Benimaru's[one of the ogre] hell-flare can reach temperatures up to hundreds of millions of degrees, yet the orc lord still wouldn't have been defeated, and Rimuru stated his Ultra-speed regen was at least comparable, if not better, since he'd win in the end if they started consuming each other
Phoenks said:
  • Why do you guys treat Information Particles as genuine Info Type 2 when they seem to have measurable, physical mass and size as said in the very scans you guys use to say they have Information Type 2? This just seems like Quantum manipulation to me tbh. I recall seeing in another thread that they had an actual finite value (Something like 0.000001 or whatever) ascribed to them as well. I will try and find that.
Click to expand...
A photon is considered massless, yet an Information Particle's mass is even smaller than a photon and are the very foundation of the world, and they store one's information so no, its not actually finite value, it'll be 0, especially when the verse follows the theory of relativity that nothing can exceed the speed of light, yet Information particle travel anywhere at 0 time[i.e., faster than light]
Phoenks said:
  • Why is magic treated as this extremely esoteric law and concept warping ability in the verse. Just being able to bypass "laws" doesn't mean you have law manipulation. The magic page describes magic as being "The ability to allow manipulating aspects of reality (or all of them), bypassing the known laws of physics." I haven't seen anything in Tensei Slime that actually goes outside of that definition so far. Magic is literally inherently the ability to manifest things that break the laws of worlds.
Click to expand...
Phoenks said:
Generally I'd also like to specifically see the evidence for Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation because I have some concerns.
Click to expand...
It can harm Spiritual Lifeforms that are such concepts, which are type 1 concepts. additionally, Spiritual Lifeforms like Elementals are basically an off-shot of a higher concept called Great Spirits/Attributes, which are the Laws governing the principle of the world in tensura, additionally, here's a more direct statement implying Spiritual lifeforms are literal concepts
So we have a direct Concept : Law co-relation here

That should be enough, I suppose?
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
They cannot experience normal death

First off, around this much temperature is required to disintegrate even atoms, and it was basically stated that even if Rimuru's underlings[Ogres] combined all their abilities, it still wouldn't be enough to kill the Orc Lord off, where Benimaru's[one of the ogre] hell-flare can reach temperatures up to hundreds of millions of degrees, yet the orc lord still wouldn't have been defeated, and Rimuru stated his Ultra-speed regen was at least comparable, if not better, since he'd win in the end if they started consuming each other

A photon is considered massless, yet an Information Particle's mass is even less than a photon and are the very foundation of the world, and they store one's information so no, its not actually finite value, it'll be 0, especially when the verse follows the theory of relativity that nothing can exceed the speed of light, yet Information particle travel anywhere at 0 time[i.e., faster than light]


It can harm Spiritual Lifeforms that are such concepts, which are type 1 concepts. additionally, Spiritual Lifeforms like Elementals are basically an off-shot of a higher concept called Great Spirits/Attributes, which are the Laws governing the principle of the world in tensura, additionally, here's a more direct statement implying Spiritual lifeforms are literal concepts
So we have a direct Concept : Law co-relation here

That should be enough, I suppose?
Click to expand...
In your same scan it says that Benimaru couldn't create something like Rimuru so you chose a bad example...
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
I see, I think you have to do it yourself since you made a CRT for that, right? Ulitma Reality (Jozaysmith?), but I think Rimuru can still maintain those things because he can create everything 🤔
Click to expand...
I am not ultima reality, neither am i jozay smith, how did you even come to all this conclusion
 

Mizuki67: I was told to give input on this. I am back again ig sigh.​

vsbattles.com

Upgrade for Spiritual Lifeforms [TenSura]

Lets get straight to the point this time, and avoid derailing the thread with useless arguments or comments. With that done, lets begin Concept Type 1 Upgrade Currently, we have Spiritual Lifeforms as Type 2 Concepts based of this : Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - Elemental...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:

Mizuki67: I was told to give input on this. I am back again ig sigh.​

vsbattles.com

Upgrade for Spiritual Lifeforms [TenSura]

Lets get straight to the point this time, and avoid derailing the thread with useless arguments or comments. With that done, lets begin Concept Type 1 Upgrade Currently, we have Spiritual Lifeforms as Type 2 Concepts based of this : Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Concept (Type 2) - Elemental...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Ig
 
Mizuki67 said:
The end, sub space, nothingness
It comes with several names, i believe nothing was there before Veldanava, and exist as part of God, Veldanava didn't create nonexistence, its been there since the beginning, so it should be removed
Turn null is also derived from that place so...
Click to expand...
I see what you mean but I don't think that's the case. Subspace is a space that separates worlds and extends to infinity. If it hadn't been created and was a part of God from the start then that would mean the worlds are directly in the multiverse and not in separate dimensions.
 
This matter of Veldanava needs to be explained again.

Did Veldanva create everything that exists after the Void World?

It is said that he created the Worlds, ok, this may be related to him creating everything else except Subspace and Void World, but...

In volume 21 it is said that Veldanava lost Turn Null when creating the World, so?
 
Franz said:
I see what you mean but I don't think that's the case. Subspace is a space that separates worlds and extends to infinity. If it hadn't been created and was a part of God from the start then that would mean the worlds are directly in the multiverse and not in separate dimensions.
Click to expand...
Isn't that the case?
The universes were placed there, its like a river and universes are bubbles, it also mentioned how each universes met their beginnings and end there
So yes.
 
Eikichi_Sensei said:
This matter of Veldanava needs to be explained again.

Did Veldanva create everything that exists after the Void World?

It is said that he created the Worlds, ok, this may be related to him creating everything else except Subspace and Void World, but...

In volume 21 it is said that Veldanava lost Turn Null when creating the World, so?
Click to expand...
Its more like he stopped using it and became satisfied after creating all the other ideal worlds, void world is subspace and turn null probably originated from there
The other universes being born are born because of leftover turn null energy Veldanava used
 
Mizuki67 said:
Its more like he stopped using it and became satisfied after creating all the other ideal worlds, void world is subspace and turn null probably originated from there
The other universes being born are born because of leftover turn null energy Veldanava used
Click to expand...
It's a rather plausible thought
 
Also, does anyone know how the verse is set up?

Dimensions>Spiritual Realms>Physical Worlds

Or...

Spiritual Realms>Physical Worlds=Dimensions?
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
They cannot experience normal death
Click to expand...
"natural death," meaning death via aging. The context suggests this. They were just talking about lifeforms not really aging.

Nothing there suggests Type 5. And again, there were multiple statements that showcased they are able to "die."


Astral_Trinity439 said:
First off, around this much temperature is required to disintegrate even atoms, and it was basically stated that even if Rimuru's underlings[Ogres] combined all their abilities, it still wouldn't be enough to kill the Orc Lord off, where Benimaru's[one of the ogre] hell-flare can reach temperatures up to hundreds of millions of degrees, yet the orc lord still wouldn't have been defeated, and Rimuru stated his Ultra-speed regen was at least comparable, if not better, since he'd win in the end if they started consuming each other
Click to expand...
This argument doesn't work because both Rimuru and Orc Disaster Geld possess significant fire and heat resistances. So the fire was not even affecting them to that extent in the first place.

For you to argue for High regeneration you'd need to showcase that they are able to regenerate from molecules.

Also, trying to use Quora for an argument is pretty bad. It doesn't really matter here since there are issues in the first place but try and get better sources if you can.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
A photon is considered massless, yet an Information Particle's mass is even smaller than a photon and are the very foundation of the world, and they store one's information so no, its not actually finite value, it'll be 0, especially when the verse follows the theory of relativity that nothing can exceed the speed of light, yet Information particle travel anywhere at 0 time[i.e., faster than light]
Click to expand...
Photons are still considered Macro-Quantum. Being significantly smaller than that would be quantum level. I never argued with that.

My main concern whether or not these spiritual and information aspects were entirely metaphysical. Cause from the descriptions they seem more like pseudo-physical quantum stuff.

IT's fine though, I don't really have much else to say on this for now. It probably works.

Astral_Trinity439 said:
Click to expand...
Upon looking through other pages this is probably fine.
 
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