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Undertale - Downgrades are wack

The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It appears she summon them already on fire, yes.
She just needs to pop them into existence and gravity would do the rest.
This would mean she doesn't actually have to simultaneously control all 41 meteors.​
Click to expand...
I would rather not make unnecessary assumptions about how or where the meteors are coming from.

Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.
 
Jason_Courne said:
It is, you can visibly see the calf, it is just the lower leg it's not the entire leg
Click to expand...
Except we can see his heels compared to this leg and they look small enough to fit the entire leg.

Unless of course, you think Mettaton's heels shrinked to a fraction of the leg's full length just for this attack.

... And it doesn't negate the fact that you are measuring legs that don't exist.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Dude... It's literally changing a calc with a scaling we already accept lol.
Click to expand...
"Anyone with comparable or higher ATK than her pretty much upscales from this"

Technically there is nothing wrong with this statement, he is not denying the downscaling.
 
Therefir said:
Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.
Click to expand...
Frisk may still be vulnerable to the secondary effects like shrapnel and heat, I think that's the reason why the 0.83 Tons Frisk can still be harmed by Vulkin's 0.36 Tons Lightning
 
Therefir said:
Still, Frisk can be damaged by a single meteor's KE... so I'm not really sure about using the whole barrage or even 5 meteors at once, they are all separated meteors with separated KE.
Click to expand...
This can pretty much be explained from Frisk downscaling from her attack value tbf.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Anyone with comparable or higher ATK than her pretty much upscales from this

Uhm, no? Most of the monsters downscale on the basis on Papyrus being still comparable to Undyne with his 20 ATK and Undyne having a durability of 20 DEF being similar to her ATK of 50 too. Remove that part, please.
Click to expand...
I never mentioned anything about the monsters with an ATK value less than Knight Knight not scaling to it, I only mentioned that anyone with an ATK value higher than her upscales.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
The first thing you said
Click to expand...
Okay, then you should count only the maximum number of meteors that are in motion during a single frame, like this one.

I can count like 25 meteors onscreen, but you could probably count more or less using different moments of the attack.
 
Therefir said:
I would rather not make unnecessary assumptions about how or where the meteors are coming from.
Click to expand...
I don't enjoy the idea of the meteors accelerating to Mach 5 instantly, but it's fine.


I made a version including all 3 possible ends, could you take a look?


It's seems as if @Psychomaster35 and I disagree on pixelscaling sizes.
If you could double check, it would be grand.​
 
I am sad to see the downgrades but overall I'd say i am neutral on the sun (or agree i guess it's kinda weird anyways) and fully disagree with the magic lightning ≠ real one. Something being magical doesn't discredit its existence.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It's seems as if @Psychomaster35 and I disagree on pixelscaling sizes.
If you could double check, it would be grand.​
Click to expand...
After counting every pixel that makes up the heart, I got 38 pixels, which is closer to your 36 px, while Psycho only got 20 px.

That being said, I want you to add another end, using the at least 25 meteors that can be shown moving at the same time.

Anyone is welcome to try to find a frame with the most meteors on-screen, if you want to get the highest results.

If people think that the outscreen meteors and those that haven't even been created still count for the feat, then I will choose the 9-A+ end, it is more consistent with Mettaton EX's calc after all.
 
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TEAM FORTRESS 2 VS UNDERTAIL IS NOW POSSIBLE
S5LSUeT.png
 
Therefir said:
After counting every pixel that makes up the heart, I got 38 pixels, which is closer to your 36 px, while Psycho only got 20 px.
Click to expand...
I think that’s probably because we are all using different screen resolutions based on the devices we are using. I’m on iPad.
 
did jevil and spamton fight for writting this CRT lmao?

anyway, idk about the sun and mettaton leg one but the lightning part, well, the lightning feats page says "Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise."

it being magical doesn't discredit it being a cloud so i think it is fine, coming from clouds is probably the single most powerful evidence for the speed you can have in the wiki
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I made a version including all 3 possible ends, could you take a look?​
Click to expand...
After some consideration, I think the mid-end should be fine, Knight Knight takes some time to summon all those meteors on screen.

And it's more consistent with Mettaton EX's feat.

Knight Knight: 0.14 tons
Mettaton EX: 0.193 tons

This means Vulkin loses the requirement needed for their lightning to be MHS+.
 
Both Knight Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work when 9-A+ are their best feats, and were not casual.

Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.
 
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Therefir said:
Both Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work 9-A+ are their best feat.
Click to expand...
This is legit taking things way too literally. They still work as supportive feats, higher tiered characters having lower yet comparable feats than the main one used happens all the time. With this logic using the explosion feat is wrong because the higher stats than 0 are in KJs instead of MJs.
Therefir said:
Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.
Click to expand...
Size doesn't matter if is still a cloud. Pizza Tower and EarthBound have that stuff accepted (despite latter doesn't really scale) despite those clouds being smaller.
 
Therefir said:
Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.
Click to expand...
This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case. If you want to make High 8-C Deltarune anyway I'm not going to stop you.
 
Therefir said:
Both Knight Knight and Mettaton EX are stronger than Vulkin, this extrapolation doesn't really work when 9-A+ are their best feats, and were not casual.

Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.
Click to expand...
Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast
 
StrymULTRA said:
This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case.
Click to expand...
You literally were the one who suggested that idea in the first place, you only changed opinion after I told you the result.
CloverDragon03 said:
Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast
Click to expand...
I admit this was derailing on my part, so continuing with the thread.

Are you okay with Vulkin's lightning being 8-C?
 
Therefir said:
You literally were the one who suggested that idea in the first place, you only changed opinion after I told you the result.
Click to expand...
I legit couldn't tell that you'd use lightning, I believed you'd use just regular electricity as I couldn't find the Joule value for it kek.
 
Therefir said:
Also, nice double standards, I guess 2 tons is "too high" when someone much weaker than you can produce 0.47 tons earthquakes with their presence alone, but having 8-C lightning is perfectly fine when someone stronger than you only have an attack at 0.14 tons, pretty cool.
Click to expand...
hate to be that gal, but we can't really use plasma for lightning balls, it's like the criteria for lightning speed, but for AP​
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
hate to be that gal, but we can't really use plasma for lightning balls, it's like the criteria for lightning speed, but for AP​
Click to expand...
And I have no plans on using it.
I legit couldn't tell that you'd use lightning, I believed you'd use just regular electricity as I couldn't find the Joule value for it kek.
Click to expand...
There's no such a thing, and Queen's electricity is stronger than lightning.

Anyway, we are still derailing.
 
Therefir said:
There's no such a thing, and Queen's electricity is stronger than lightning.

Anyway we are still derailing.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
This is taking it out of context, I said it because Queen stuff isn't confirmed to be lightning unlike Vulkin's case. If you want to make High 8-C Deltarune anyway I'm not going to stop you.
Click to expand...
This and the Maus thing. But yeah, if you want to make the upgrade for Deltarune, feel free to do so after this CRT.
 
Agreements: @Da3ggman, @Therefir, @Psychomaster35 (On Sun feat), @Expectro2000xxx (On MHS+ Downgrade), @CloverDragon03 (MTT leg)
Neutral: @Rau, @CloverDragon03 (On Sun feat), @Psychomaster35, @Arceus0x
Disagreement: @StrymULTRA, @Thelastmlg (on MHS+ downgrade), @Arceus0x (on MHS+ downgrade), @Jason_Courne (on MTT Leg)

Sun feat and Mettaton Leg EX seems to be approved already. MHS+ needs review as well.

CloverDragon03 said:
Can we not play the "lol nice double standards" game? I get pointing out an inconsistency in arguments but this is getting accusatory real fast
Click to expand...
Could you give your [[opinion]] on the other stuff?​
 
Last edited:
I evaluated Therefir's new Mettaton kick calc that used your measurements. It looks good

As for the lightning speed thing, I have no opinion tbh
 
Besides, about the Sun thing I have no opinion, but the stardust thing is still worth to be mentioned to be fair.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
Neutral in that for now until I hear more opinions
Click to expand...
Mine is that

The fact is, Vulkin downscales from a weaker feat, coming from a stronger character.
The fact it's a cloud shouldn't automatically qualify for 1.6 billion joules.

Not only is the energy of the cloud generated by the monster itself,
but natural clouds that generate that much energy are hundreds of thousand of times larger.

There is no reason to scale Vulkin's lightning to real life lightning.
So unless the monster scales to 1.6 billion joules themselves,
this shall not be assumed.

Otherwise, we'd be just working backwards.​
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Not only is the energy of the cloud generated by the monster itself,
but natural clouds that generate that much energy are hundreds of thousand of times larger.
Click to expand...
Pizza Tower. We accept it even for those sizes, so Vulkin should too.

Besides the gap is barely x2 come on now. This wiki has the issue of cockblocking common sense based on minor stuff like this, so let's better not repeat this mistake, okay?
 
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