Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Sera_EX]

Ultima and I had a discussion about how many villains in DC are claimed to be ">=" the Presence which is just hype and contradicted by everything else in the comics or lore. Mordu was even claimed to be stronger than God, if memory serves me correctly. Just keep in mind that till this day some writers still treat the Presence as simply a deity who inherited a large portion of the godwave.

Let me explain it another way. In Digimon, any random Digimon of excessively great power can be described as "beyond Yggdrasil", yet they are done in by Digimon inferior than Yggdrasil. Why? Because it was just hype. It reminds me of that one fraccion of Baragon in Bleach who claimed to be stronger than a captain but was defeated by Hisagi the lieutenant. He even told his fallen foe that he wasn't even close to captain level. Writers can hype up characters too, and no amount of narration or dialogue can change what actually is established in the comics.

As the old saying goes: Actions speak louder than words.

P.S: I just felt like adding this as it might help (maybe it won't). I'm not actually here to argue. Some things I claimed might not actually be completely accurate and some I'd my comparisons might be good old false equivalencies. I'm dealing with some sort of mental/emotional crisis and a lot of anxiety, and it's tough trying to hide it from my kids (they're smarter than their age would suggest), so please if you disagree that's fine, I'm not trying to debunk anyone here. I'm just saying it might help to go with the old saying rather than a couple of instances of narration or dialogue. Maybe. You do you, I guess.

 

[Sandman31]

The Otherkind were problems for Hecate. Eclipso was made by Yahweh to combat Hecate and whittle down her power. We can take that as The Presence is lazy and a jerk, letting someone else fight for him. Or, he literally couldn't fight her without being wiped immediately. And I think the latter is the case.

The Presence uses agents all the time, he almost never act by himself, the Presence creating Eclipso to combat someone doesn't say anything about his strength/power. On the contrary, the Presence sending an agent to deal with something means that that something doesn't really bother the Presence

 

[Deagonx]

Source Wall is 1-A on here. So Tearing down the Source Wall would be 1-A.

The Otherkind did not tear down the Source Wall.

What isn't clicking is his failure to address that he omitted the rest of the conversation from the debate community for nearly an entire year.

Omitted it? I posted it on Comicvine in tandem with the first post. I uploaded it myself.

He also said the Dark Multiverse wasn't made by a Monitor, when in fact it was made by Alpheus

Alpheus is not a Monitor.

Another blatant mistruth, as multiple deities had to group to pull resources to forge Eclipso.

You, personally, claimed two comments ago that The Presence made Eclipso. See the quote below.

Eclipso was made by Yahweh to combat Hecate and whittle down her power

^^^^ So which is it?

Two debunks here, first Hecate came before all those Gods, sorry. The comic said it clear as a bell.

That's fine? The New Gods and Greek Pantheons aren't a part of what I said. The comic said "clear as a bell" that the Collective Unconscious along with the other Seven Energies of the Universe were entrusted to Perpetua by The Source/Presence.

Chronicler confirmed twice in this comic that the Source is the Overvoid

Neither of your scans suggest the Source is the Overvoid, how exactly did you reach that conclusion from your evidence? I'll wait.

Capital G for God. Twice.
TWO capitol G's lol

Neither of those scans say "capital G God" nor is the G distinctly capital. Both of your scans say "there is a god." Not "The God" or "God."

Next, he said the Monitors didn't call the Source the Prime Monitor. I guess I have to crop the already super cropped scan. Ok,no prob

Yes, the sentence which mentions the Source and the sentence which mentions "Prime Monitor" are separate sentences. This is on top of the fact that you, personally, have summarily rejected any canon from Countdown on account of Morrison saying he didn't consider it when writing Final Crisis. So if you're open to taking Countdown, does that mean you recognize that the (1) the average Monitor isn't that much more powerful than the average hero (2) the Monitors were made by seed programming activated by messing with Anti-Monitor's body and (3) there are only 52 universes?

Which also isn't true, he was not in the Void nor was he outside of the Source Wall.

Elaine narrated that he was where the Source was, which is both in the void and outside the Source Wall.

Great Darkness being an aspect of Lucifer is blatntly wrong and not implied in the actual comic

It absolutely is, the very reason the question was asked is because the "hand" aspect of Lucifer looks distinctly like the Great Darkness from American Gothic. The author confirmed that it was.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg

I would still appreciate your input here, as the full scale of this is complicated to create a coherent tiering structure from.

Higher things in the cosmology is usually where I put the line in the sand for Marvel and DC, so I don't have much intel here. From my reading of the opening post and comments throughout the thread, I can't really point out anything wrong and both make sense, although I did find myself agreeing with Sandman and Sera's comments. I'm not necessary against the revisions either though, as I'm not well-versed enough on this topic.

 

[Xearsay]

It’s directly expressed that they were capable of tearing down the barrier separating the multiverse and dark multiverse. Which includes The Source Wall. Which is 1-A on here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would appreciate if you can figure out how we should properly reorganise our DC tiering structure based on this. Should we downgrade "The Presence" profile page, along with The Great Evil Beast, Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel, or use some other approach? Making The Upside-Down Man and Hecate High 1-A would obviously be extremely exaggerated.

The thing is, Hecate and the Upside-Down Man are NEVER claimed to be stronger than the Presence directly. Hecate is stated to be stronger than all the Gods as she created the Collective Unconscious from which they emerged. The question stands if you agree that it makes her stronger than the Presence or not.

The Presence was shaped by belief, this much is factual. The Source created the universe and was itself also created by the universe, its a recursive creation that doesn't follow causality. Even if you want to attribute the creation of the Collective Unconscious to Hecate I don't think that makes her stronger than 1-A.

The Upside-Down Man is unquestionably 1-A imo because its relation to the Shadowlands and the Great Darkness and being its embodiment, I agree. Hecate scales to him and would also be 1-A. But I don't think that the hand that matched the Great Darkness was the Presence himself directly. The Presence's "true self" is constantly explained to be shapeless and abstract, only appearing through forms and avatars that lesser beings can comprehend. So Yawheh would not be as powerful as the full-thing, the Presence / The Source. Just 1-A imo.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s directly expressed that they were capable of tearing down the barrier separating the multiverse and dark multiverse. Which includes The Source Wall.

1. I already debunked the notion that the Dark Multiverse is outside the Source Wall in this thread.

2. A single statement is not a good reason to make a character 1-A well above and beyond any of their feats outside of that.

 

[Xearsay]

lol no you didn’t. You can’t debunk what’s literally solidified in the comic.

How many times it was expressed means nothing. As long as it is expressed is all that matters. And It’s also an essential plot point of the story since it’s the reason the Lords of Order tried to carry out their plan. The story literally falls into nonsense if we ignore it.

 

[Deagonx]

Of course not, but the idea that the Dark Multiverse is separated from the Multiverse by the Source Wall isn't solidifed in the comic, it's directly contradicted by the comic. So, I'll reiterate, this notion has already been debunked in this thread:

The Source Wall doesn't separate the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse, as proven by the fact that the Source Wall encompasses the Sphere of the Gods, but the Sphere was connected directly to the Other Place before Hecate created a barrier, which means the Source Wall is around both.

This is further proven by the fact that following the first Dark Multiverse storyline, it was said that "even greater mysteries" lay beyond the Source Wall.

Do you have any response to this proof or do you concede?

And their ability to destroy the Source Wall is not an essential plot point, and the best proof of this is that it's never mentioned in any way. The "barrier" is not the Source Wall. If it was, they would just call it the Source Wall, and that would contradict other information from the comic that debunks that theory.

As long as it is expressed is all that matter.

This is an illogical viewpoint. It was expressed that Darkseid was omnipotent, is he therefore tier 0? Of course not, anti-feats, a lack of corroboration, errors in a certain interpretation, these are all reasons why a single character statement is not reliable enough for an upgrade.

 

[Xearsay]

Where was the Sphere directly connected to the Otherplace?

Yes it is. If the Otherkind weren’t capable of doing that then the entire plan Nabu devised was for literally no reason.

That’s not even the same because omnipotent in DC is just a term they fling out to beings who wield great power. It’s not expressing that they have the ability to do anything. This however is not the case bee cause there’s nothing contradicting them from being capable of tearing down the Source Wall.

 

[Deagonx]

Where was the Sphere directly connected to the Otherplace?

In Hecate's origin story. Upside Down Man was looking at her directly from the Other Place prior to her creating a barrier. How did you miss this?

Yes it is. If the Otherkind weren’t capable of doing that then the entire plan Nabu devised was for literally no reason.

Again, the "barrier" is not the Source Wall, so this objection is moot.

That’s not even the same because omnipotent in DC is just a term they fling out

This is a meaningless semantic objection. The point is: Character statements of power level are oft unreliable and should be taken with a grain of salt, rather than clinging to one single statement in an attempt to overrate a characters power despite contradictory evidence that you've still failed to address.

This however is not the case bee cause there’s nothing contradicting them from being capable of tearing down the Source Wall.

Yes, there is, they've never displayed 1-A power, it was never said that they could destroy the Source Wall, and the being that created the Source Wall is far more powerful than them. Likewise, the logic used to connect "barrier" to "Source Wall" is flawed and based on faulty information.

 

[Xearsay]

That’s because there both in The Dark which is beneath the Multiverse. This proves literally nothing about the Source Walls position.

There unreliable only if proven to be unreliable and not because random user on the internet personally doesn’t want to trust the statement.

It’s directly said they’re capable of tearing down the barriers separating the multiverses which includes the Source Wall which is 1-A. Meaning they are capable of 1-A power whether you like it or not.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx

What do you think about this?

Can you stop pinging me for DC threads in particular?
I literally do not read them

 

[Deagonx]

That’s because there both in The Dark which is beneath the Multiverse.

She's in the Sphere, the panel literally says this. "The dark" that she is in refers to an unpopulated Sphere/Other Place. If they were both in the Dark Multiverse, why would it mention the Sphere, and say that the Other Place is tied to a "darker, other Multiverse?" Your interpretation makes no sense and it is born purely of you refusing to concede despite proof that you are wrong. She creates the barrier between the Sphere and the Other Place, which proves that the Source Wall does not bisect them

There unreliable only if proven to be unreliable

Unreliable, by definition, means inconsistent. Character statements writ large have been proven to be unreliable. Character statements aren't "innocent until proven guilty" or some nonsense like that. They are tertiary evidence that can be used to support or describe feats, not stand-alone bases for upgrades, because they are so often proven wrong.

It’s directly said they’re capable of tearing down the barriers separating the multiverses which includes the Source Wall

No, it does not include the Source Wall. All you've done is repeat yourself without addressing the counterargument that shows how your interpretation is illogical.

 

[Xearsay]

It saids “It wasn’t long before the girl sensed she wasn’t alone in the Dark.” The Dark =/= The Sphere of Gods. The very scan you’re using doesn’t even support anything you’re trying to claim.

One character statement being unreliable for specific reasons =/= every character statement is unreliable. This is literally a fallacy.

You didn’t make a counter argument. All you’ve done was present scans that don’t support your point and use a fallacy of generalization.

 

[Deagonx]

It saids “It wasn’t long before the girl sensed she wasn’t alone in the Dark.” The Dark =/= The Sphere of Gods.

You are editorializing the scan, you're capitalizing the D in Dark to try and indicate that it's a specific location, when the scan does not suggest that.

The scan specifically delineates between the Sphere and the Other Place, and states that Hecate created the barrier because "she did not want her beautiful new realm to be sullied with the possibility of horror." This clearly refers to the Sphere, and the barrier is clearly between the Sphere and the Other Place. Are you saying "her beautiful new realm" is the Other Place instead of the Sphere? Or that it's some other realm entirely? Is she not in the Sphere at the end of the scan? If so, what is this barrier supposed to be separating if not the Sphere and the Other Place?

Your interpretation is nonsense, you're only peddling this viewpoint because it supports your pre-held biases, not because it makes sense in the story or because it's backed by evidence.

How can you form an argument that revolves so fundamentally around ignoring what's happening in a story?

One character statement being unreliable for specific reasons =/= every character statement is unreliable. This is literally a fallacy.

Character statements in general are unreliable, this has been proven time and time again, they cannot be taken wholesale at face value without supporting evidence to justify an upgrade, particularly when they are contradicted by better evidence like in this case.

All you’ve done was present scans that don’t support your point

You just tried to tell me Hecate wasn't in the Sphere. Your headcanon is positively absurd.

 

[Sandman31]

It saids “It wasn’t long before the girl sensed she wasn’t alone in the Dark.” The Dark =/= The Sphere of Gods. The very scan you’re using doesn’t even support anything you’re trying to claim.

I'm gonna side with DeagonX on this one. The narration clearly state that they're in a seperate location.

"It wasnt long before the girl sense she wasnt alone in the dark" = referring to her current location

"Beneath the Sphere of the Gods, there was a darker...other place. Tied to a darker, other multiverse" = clearly stating a distinction between their locations by saying that the other entity is in a darker other place beneath where the girl is (The Sphere of the Gods)

You cant just ignore the narration that made it clear that there is a distinction in where they are despite both being in the dark. Also, if you're judging it by how the sentence is structured, then yes the dark is indeed = the Sphere of the Gods. If its not then the narration wouldn't try to distinguish it by calling it beneath the Sphere and being a "darker" place. The narration is obviously making a comparison, you cant compare something to itself so its quite clear that the comparison that is happening here is between the "darker" other place and the merely "dark" Sphere of the Gods

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Deagonx and Sandman31 make sense above.

However, everybody should please try to be respectful and patient in their posts, so we can more easily collaborate to find logical solutions. No more "lols" or irritable tone comments please.

 

[Xearsay]

I'm gonna side with DeagonX on this one. The narration clearly state that they're in a seperate location.

"It wasnt long before the girl sense she wasnt alone in the dark" = referring to her current location

"Beneath the Sphere of the Gods, there was a darker...other place. Tied to a darker, other multiverse" = clearly stating a distinction between their locations by saying that the other entity is in a darker other place beneath where the girl is (The Sphere of the Gods)

You cant just ignore the narration that made it clear that there is a distinction in where they are despite both being in the dark. Also, if you're judging it by how the sentence is structured, then yes the dark is indeed = the Sphere of the Gods. If its not then the narration wouldn't try to distinguish it by calling it beneath the Sphere and being a "darker" place. The narration is obviously making a comparison, you cant compare something to itself so its quite clear that the comparison that is happening here is between the "darker" other place and the merely "dark" Sphere of the Gods

The thing is I’m not saying the The Dark isn’t beneath the Sphere of Gods. Nor am I denying theirs comparisons. I’m just saying this doesn’t prove there isn’t a Source Wall separating them as it’s literally shown in the panel with Dr Fate where he’s talking about the barriers and backed by Jason Blood.

 

[Deagonx]

The thing is I’m not saying the The Dark isn’t beneath the Sphere of Gods

As Sandman31 explained, "The dark" clearly refers to the Sphere as it is contrasted against the darker Other Place. The capital D that you keep adding to it is editorializing, not something that's actually in the comic.

I’m just saying this doesn’t prove there isn’t a Source Wall separating them.

Yes, it does. If there was a Source Wall separating the Sphere/Multiverse and the Other Place/Dark Multiverse, there would have been no need for Hecate to create a barrier to keep UDM out, since the greatest barrier known to DC would have already served that purpose.

 

[Xearsay]

As Sandman31 explained, "The dark" clearly refers to the Sphere as it is contrasted against the darker Other Place. The capital D that you keep adding to it is editorializing, not something that's actually in the comic.


Yes, it does. If there was a Source Wall separating the Sphere/Multiverse and the Other Place/Dark Multiverse, there would have been no need for Hecate to create a barrier to keep UDM out, since the greatest barrier known to DC would have already served that purpose.

That’s because The Source Wall didn’t exist at the dawn of creation. It came into existence after the Multiverse was reset.

 

[Deagonx]

There's no information that suggests Hecate existed in Perpetua's old twisted multiverse, and no reason why the Cosmic Raptor would create a barrier separating the two realms specifically, and that already contradicts what's on panel.

 

[Xearsay]

It directly saids that it takes place in the beginning billions of years before Gods even came into existence. Which aligns with dawn of creation happening billions of years ago. That’s direct proof right there.

 

[Deagonx]

We have no idea when the Gods first came into existence relative to the creation of the Perpetua's original multiverse.

Also, not all billions are created equal. Something that happened 10 billion years ago and 20 billion years ago both happened "billions of years ago." They didn't happen at the same time.

 

[Xearsay]

We have no idea when the Gods first came into existence relative to the creation of the Perpetua's original multiverse.

Also, not all billions are created equal. Something that happened 10 billion years ago and 20 billion years ago both happened "billions of years ago." They didn't happen at the same time.

That’s true to a certain extent. Regardless, just because a Source Wall wasn’t drawn when they were touching doesn’t mean one didn’t exist between the two multiverses. It’s directly said at the start of the story that a year in creation at the Source Wall has given the Otherkind a way in. Meaning the Otherkind have to have been outside of it.

 

[Deagonx]

The tear was in creation at/near the Source Wall, not in the wall itself. As explained, what was beyond the wall was described as a "greater mystery" than the Dark Multiverse.

Likewise, worlds from the forge either go into the multiverse or into the dark multiverse. If the Source Wall separates them this suggests the Cosmic Raptor for some reason left a hole in it for the World Forge.

There's clearly no wall between the realms.

 

[Xearsay]

“Tear in creation at the Source Wall. It’s given something a way in.” The only tear at the Source Wall is the one made in wall itself lol.

The Otherkind weren’t from the Dark Multiverse. So that statement isn’t applicable to them. They’re from the Otherplace which surrounds the Dark Multiverse.
Also just to add. The Source Wall was described as the barrier between realms of the multiverse in Dark Knights Metal.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, the scan says the tear was in creation itself. Not the wall. Do you have any scans that say there was a tear in the wall itself or do you concede?

The Otherkind weren’t from the Dark Multiverse

This is semantics.

The Source Wall was described as the barrier between realms of the multiverse in Dark Knights Metal.

Where? Your scan does not mention the Source Wall. Plus, that description would not support your point.

 

[Xearsay]

You realize a tear in The Source Wall can be described as a tear in creation right?

it’s not semantics it’s a fact. They’re from the Sphere surrounding the dark Multiverse. They’re not from one of the nightmare realities within the Dark Multiverse itself.

It saids “The rupture of the barrier between realms of the Multiverse...” Which is in reference to The Source Wall that they broke open in the same story.

 

[MichaelJZero]

Great Darkness being an aspect of Lucifer is blatntly wrong and not implied in the actual comic. Twitter Comments from authors don't go by editorial reviews and are not approved for publishing and hence aren't canon, the actual comic doesn't indicate that.

The Great Darkness is indeed only a fragment of "The Otherplace", but I don't think that "The Source / The Presence" is meant to be included in the Gods that Hecate is more powerful than. It's possible that the hand that matched the Great Evil Darkness was just a fragment of the Presence anyways, at least that's how I figure.

Or, more accurately, there is a distinction to be had between Yahweh and "The Presence / The Source" who is described as a boundless, unconscious and abstract deity, and the former is actually weaker than Hecate.

Either way I agree with 1-A for Upside-Down Man and Hecate.

This is correct. The comics already confirmed the Dark Multiverse contains the Otherkind in the exterior spheres that house it. I feel like any counter to this is a moot point.

Anyone reading, please stop debating Deagon on this issue. He is trying to flood this thread with as much empty posts as possible so that other readers get dissuaded from reading and understanding the crux of this topic we are discussing about altering the rating on some characters. He was directly debunked in this scan above and his continued shill of the opposite is a play to flood this thread with as much nothing as possible.

When you are debunked, you need to take your L with grace and acceptance. Not continue to shill nonsense over and over, disregarding it repeatedly in 10x posts in a row.


IMO, some power rating shifts need to be allocated based on all of this. The Presence requires a shift, as well as the Fuginauts. Hecate and Upsidedown Man require a promotion. The Fuginauts also need to be placed a step above Upsidedown Man and Hecate for being the beings who kept them in check.

Does anyone else agree? I base this on the scans, not any personal opinion or even author statements, I am judging directly by the narration box in the comic and nothing else.

 

[Deagonx]

Hecate lives in the Collective Unconscious's top layers, but the entire "thing" is the Leviathan.

No, it isn't. The Leviathan is not canon to DC. Carey was told explicitly that he wasn't allowed to include DC characters.

The question now becomes, do we agree that Hecate > The Presence when the scans said the Presence and other deities/beings had to group together to forge the first Spectre just to combat Hecate?

The Presence was not implicated in the scan, it merely said "Great Powers."

Well, if so, they come from the Source and the same place Chronicler came from. This means Chronicler has to be rated higher than Perpetua and Batman Who Laughs.

No, it doesn't, because Perpetua is also from the same place Chronicler is from.

 

[MichaelJZero]

It is very clear that this user is just trying to get this thread locked or filled with as many tangent arguments as possible, so that other readers get dissuaded from reading this thread.

Let's take this one step at a time and just agree or disagree on the alterations for rating of the Upsidedown Man. Can we do that? Because literally, nobody here is going to agree with Deagon that the Dark Multiverse doesn't contain the Otherkind. He called this statement in this comic panel "semantics" *rolls eyes

After the mods or whoever else agrees on the Upsidedown man's feats and power rating, we can make more motions to discuss other topics and other character power rating reallocations.

Is everyone okay with that?

 

[Deagonx]

It is very clear that this user is just trying to get this thread locked or filled with as many tangent arguments as possible, so that other readers get dissuaded from reading this thread.

In what way is that "clear?" All I have done is respond to your claims.

You have failed to address any of the errors in your argument or explain how your scans support your claims.

You claimed Death Metal said the Source was the Overvoid but never provided proof. You claimed that it retconned Presence = Source and never provided proof.

Because literally, nobody here is going to agree with Deagon that the Dark Multiverse doesn't contain the Otherkind

I never said that. Xearsay did. See below.

The Otherkind weren’t from the Dark Multiverse

^^^^

He called this statement in this comic panel "semantics"

No, I didn't.

 

[MichaelJZero]

You just spent the last few hours arguing with Xearesay that JLD is not part of Future State. In Swamp Things Future State series, it starts off confirming itself is the future of the situation after Death Metal. And JLD was ongoing during the Metal series as part of the same canon as an integrated story to the Metal series.

This was literal, and I mean literal first panel in the Swamp Thing Future State comic.

Your argument that JLD isn't part of this new story, is a moot point. Just like your argument that the Dark Multiverse didn't contain the Otherkind, which you argued for an entire page, but now are trying to double back telling us you never said it.

You've shown us in the past 48 hours that you hide your full conversations and try to pass them off as legit until someone digs and finds out you lied to everyone about it. You've shown us that no level of debunking matters and you'll just come back tomorrow and say "nuh uhh, I never said that."

In all honestly, mods, I am tremendously sorry I even engaged in responding to him on anything at all. It was totally my fault here for even replying to him. I won't be making that mistake in the future. I hope nobody is listening to him on any of these subjects, this guy just told us to our faces that the arguments on Page one that he brandished were actually fake, we apparently hallucinated Deagon saying that the Otherkind were not from the Dark Multiverse.

 

[Deagonx]

Is this debate supposed to be death by constant strawman?

You just spent the last few hours arguing with Xearesay that JLD is not part of Future State.

No, I didn't. I said that just because the Justice League Dark is in Future State does not mean it's a continuation of Justice League Dark (2018). This is a strawman.

Your argument that JLD isn't part of this new story, is a moot point.

That's not my argument, and I never said that.

Just like your argument that the Dark Multiverse didn't contain the Otherkind, which you argued for an entire page, but now are trying to double back telling us you never said it.

Michael, I literally posted a quote proving Xearsay was the one who said that, not me. What aren't you able to understand about this? See below:

The Otherkind weren’t from the Dark Multiverse

^^

You've shown us in the past 48 hours that you hide your full conversations and try to pass them off as legit until someone digs

I posted a scan proving I uploaded that half of the conversation literally a year ago. I never hid it from anyone, I uploaded it the same day I did the first half.

Proof:

Do you have any more lies to tell in the empty pursuit of character assassination?

we apparently hallucinated Deagon saying that the Otherkind were not from the Dark Multiverse.

Who is "we?" You are the only one who saw Xearsay say something and for some reason accuse me of saying it instead.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm gonna need time to sort through everything.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Source Wall discussion is meaningless to the overall point.

 

[Amakasu]

Sigh. This is getting terrible, lol.

So I'll be supporting deagonx idea of lucifer being the great evil beast because I don't particularly like Michael (monitor wanking) and I don't like hecate or the upside down man. Xearsay is still a bro tho.

Before I start, I will be proving why the JLD title 2018 directly contradicts the narrative of swampthing volume 2 the american Gothic.

In the beginning of the comic, it was stated that the battle between the great darkness and the light of creation is the ultimate battle between the ultimate light and the ultimate evil, and that whatever side will win everything will be changed. We then see the great darkness arose from hell. We then see many powerfull character meet and interact with the great darkness, the first being etrigan who the great darkness asks about it's being, name and what purpose he has, to which the demon replies with, "your name.... your name is evil, the absence of god's light, his shadow partner, locked in an endless fight" to which the darkness replies with throwing him away because etrigan didn't answer what he asked. Like this goes on and on until he meets swampthing which gives it what it wanted. I am not the one you see....... I have tried to make sense of that darkness.... An I have failed. I have seen evil, it's cruelty... The randomness which it ravages.... Innocent and guilty alike.... I have not understood it... I ask the parliament of tress.... Whose knowledge is older, greater than mine.... They seem to insist.... that there was no evil.... But I have seen evil..... And their answer was incomprehensible to me.... And yet, they spoke of aphids eating leaves.... Bugs eating aphidsThemselves finally devoured by the soil..... Feeding the foliage. They asked.... Where evil dwelled within the cycle.... And told me to look for the soil. The black soil.... In rich in foul decay.... Yet glorious of life.... Springs from it. But however dazzling... The flourishes of life in the end.... All decays... to the same black humus... Perhaps.... perhaps... Evil.... Is the humus.... Formed by virtues decay.... And perhaps it is from... The dark sinister loam.... That virtue grows strongest? This entire quote right here says that without darkness light can't exist, and that without light darkness can't exist.Then we the great darkness understanding it's purpose and moving forward and merging with the light into unity. Stating that everything has changed.

The entire narrative of this comic is the greatest evil to merge with the greatest good, so suddenly it's revealed that it's part of another great darkness is a direct contradiction to the comic. Yes, it may be closer to the comic but the core beliefs is not present. However in case of lucifer it dose make sense for him to be the great darkness.

In the comic (2018) It's solidified that lucifer before the Presence made him lucifer was the darkness before creation, he was created by the sole reason to give meaning to the Presence's light, and that both are perfect and both are one. This whole quote aligns quite well with the earliest description of the great evil beast and the light.

 

[Amakasu]

I too will be proving why lucifer pre dates the collective Unconsciousness (humanity to be exact), hecate power source being the Presence, and that the Presence is not the light if you guess want to say my explanation is wrong.

 

[Amakasu]

Tho I agree upside down man and hecate should be upgraded