Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Amakasu]

Also why are people confusing the great darkness to the dark multivese? They both are different. The dark multivese was created because barbatos didn't do his job and killed the world forger. The second is the darkness before creation

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx, Amakasu, Sandman31, and Firestorm808:

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Amakasu]

My opinion on this overvoid, the Presence and the source thing. The source, the Presence and the overvoid are one of the most powerful beings present in DC and yes these three are called one multiple times, but we should look for a more consistent Interpretation. The source has been recreated using imagination or the red to be specific. The red however is trancended by the world soul, Which is the body of god, the Presence to be exact. The overvoid trancends everything below it.

Tho retcon, enoynimus, Greg freely trancend the overvoid....

 

[Amakasu]

Tho I can agree with the Source/Presence thing. That's also consistent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lucifer being the Great Evil Beast is demonstrably false and its ridiculous that anyone is arguing for it. The only evidence is a possible interpretation of one panel from a comic from 2018. The only reason Ant is agreeing and thanking the people in that side is because it downgrades comics.

 

[Amakasu]

Lucifer being the Great Evil Beast is demonstrably false and its ridiculous that anyone is arguing for it. The only evidence is a possible interpretation of one panel from a comic from 2018. The only reason Ant is agreeing and thanking the people in that side is because it downgrades comics.

Well it's again stated in issue 19 to 24 where he is called the great beast multiple times, and said to be the darkness.

 

[Amakasu]

Isn't the dreaming 1A? Just scale hecate to the dreaming

 

[Sandman31]

Well, here's what I think, The Presence did not create the GBE. Second is that this can be interpreted very literally and that Lucifer is GBE. I don't agree with it, too much contradiction and the evidences are vague. Or that he was only talking about his role in contrast to the role of the Presence/"his Light". That he is talking figuratively. Which would makes more sense and less contradiction. Also, you can interpret this literally and it can still be Lucifer=/=GBE. Its been stated many times that Lucifer and Hell was indeed created to be an opposite to God/Heaven. Hell is even called as Heavens shadow many times so its really nothing new, Lucifer and Hell has always been created as an opposite of the Presence and The Silver City. He doesn't need to be the GBE to be as opposite.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/r4SoNXBSo...yL-ZwYZ2bEzyDdDKVbmGRyIvvl4bzI0H0_rXyr3DcQ=s0

This scan from the same chapter stated that Lucifer was born in the Darkness of the void. Which wouldn't make sense if Lucifer is the Darkness.

 

[Sandman31]

Well it's again stated in issue 19 to 24 where he is called the great beast multiple times, and said to be the darkness.

Was it in the original run? because the current one only has 18 chapters

 

[Amakasu]

Well, here's what I think, The Presence did not create the GBE. Second is that this can be interpreted very literally and that Lucifer is GBE. I don't agree with it, too much contradiction and the evidences are vague. Or that he was only talking about his role in contrast to the role of the Presence/"his Light". That he is talking figuratively. Which would makes more sense and less contradiction. Also, you can interpret this literally and it can still be Lucifer=/=GBE. Its been stated many times that Lucifer and Hell was indeed created to be an opposite to God/Heaven. Hell is even called as Heavens shadow many times so its really nothing new, Lucifer and Hell has always been created as an opposite of the Presence and The Silver City. He doesn't need to be the GBE to be as opposite.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/r4SoNXBSo...yL-ZwYZ2bEzyDdDKVbmGRyIvvl4bzI0H0_rXyr3DcQ=s0

This scan from the same chapter stated that Lucifer was born in the Darkness of the void. Which wouldn't make sense if Lucifer is the Darkness.

Firstly the quote "being born aswell" is just a reference to how the darkness was shaped to be lucifer, it's a metaphor of how he was born.

 

[Amakasu]

Was it in the original run? because the current one only has 18 chapters

The 4 issues got released. Also lucifer and the Presence were stated to pre date humanity. Don't know how that works

 

[Amakasu]

And hell is from my knowledge not a opponent or a rival to the Presence. Hell is just the dark reflection of heaven, the place, the Presence gifted to lucifer. Lucifer actually dosen't want shit with the Presence because he was ts to escape the plan

 

[Deagonx]

The source has been recreated using imagination or the red to be specific.

The source there isn't "The Source" he's using the term to refer to the M-Field which is the source of Animal Man's power. Thats a scan that WCP tried to use to undermine The Source falsely.

The only evidence is a possible interpretation of one panel from a comic from 2018.

The possible interpretation was pretty clear to anyone that read it and it was confirmed by the author.

because the current one only has 18 chapters

The remaining chapters were released in graphic novel format. Their original release was delayed due to COVID.

 

[Sandman31]

The 4 issues got released. Also lucifer and the Presence were stated to pre date humanity. Don't know how that works

They were always stated to predate humanity. Dreams in Vertigo shapes reality retroactively, dreams change everything from the beginning.

The Dreaming affects both the dreaming and waking reality.Changing stories where everything comes from, like the story of garden of Eden affects everything, not just the Dreaming [1]A change in the Dreaming made everything revert back from the very beginning

1

"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going. And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"

Firstly the quote "being born aswell" is just a reference to how the darkness was shaped to be lucifer, it's a metaphor of how he was born.

He was literally said to came into being in the void, if the the Darkness was shaped into Lucifer then how did he came into being in it?

Meriam-Webster definition of come into being

: to begin to exist : to come to be

 

[Xearsay]

Just to throw this out there. The original Darkness was described as not a fallen angel.

And Lucifer has also distinguished himself from it in the past.

 

[Sandman31]

The remaining chapters were released in graphic novel format. Their original release was delayed due to COVID.

Thanks. Didnt know that, I dont really care much about this Lucifer (or the entire Sandman Universe) run so I'm a bit out of the loop

 

[Amakasu]

They were always stated to predate humanity. Dreams in Vertigo shapes reality retroactively, dreams change everything from the beginning.

The Dreaming affects both the dreaming and waking reality.Changing stories where everything comes from, like the story of garden of Eden affects everything, not just the Dreaming [1]A change in the Dreaming made everything revert back from the very beginning

1

"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going. And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"

Firstly the quote "being born aswell" is just a reference to how the darkness was shaped to be lucifer, it's a metaphor of how he was born.

He was literally said to came into being in the void, if the the Darkness was shaped into Lucifer then how did he came into being in it?

Meriam-Webster definition of come into being

: to begin to exist : to come to be

I don't necessarily agree with him being born of belief because I think the scan taken out of context. What the author meant to say was that lucifer and beings like the Presence are shaped into gods like lucifer is some american native god and Michael is kali. Each belief of humans shape them into a god they made. I don't think he needs belief to exist.

Plus you know lucifer was created in the overvoid right? The void is a reference to the overvoid.

 

[Amakasu]

Thanks. Didnt know that, I dont really care much about this Lucifer (or the entire Sandman Universe) run so I'm a bit out of the loop

Imo, 2018 low-key better than both 2000 and 2016. And I prefer lucifer way more than Sandman. But swampthing is the best

 

[Xearsay]

I don't necessarily agree with him being born of belief because I think the scan that is represented to say that is out of context. What the author meant to say was that lucifer and beings like the Presence are shaped into gods like lucifer is some american native god and Michael is kali. Each belief of humans shape them into a god they made. I don't think he needs belief to exist.

Plus you know lucifer was created in the overvoid right? The void is a reference to the overvoid.

Indeed. Not just Lucifer but all the Gods are shaped by belief. Without belief they still exist though.

There's a good scan from JLD that kind of goes over this with Khalid talking about what a world without stories would look like.

 

[Sandman31]

I don't necessarily agree with him being born of belief because I think the scan that is represented to say that is out of context. What the author meant to say was that lucifer and beings like the Presence are shaped into gods like lucifer is some american native god and Michael is kali. Each belief of humans shape them into a god they made. I don't think he needs belief to exist.

No, I think thats just what he meant.


"Because it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept " -The Sandman: Overture

From the Presence's profile: The Presence has stated that he was shaped by external forces, apparently intended to be the beliefs and imaginations of humanity, rather than a 4th Wall reference to the writers or real-world humans. This concept was introduced in The Sandman: A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from it's very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats. In Vertigo, dreams, stories and beliefs shapes the universe. The collected dream of a thousand being can rewrite creation from its very beginning to its very end.

This has also been shown in The Dreaming. There's a place in the Dreaming where the most important stories are stored: Creation stories, changing these stories not only changes the Dreaming but also all of creation. The Creation story in the Dreaming was once changed so that the Fall never happened and because of that everything whirled back to its source. Changing the stories in the Dreaming does change reality

There are beings who are not affected by dreams rewriting Creation like Mother Night, Father Time, Glory of the First Circle and possibly Dream

Does this mean the Dream created everything or is above everyone?

The answer is no. But it does mean that the Endless are more primal than any gods

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .

"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"

There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God

"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"

The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation

"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"

"Except our sister"

1

"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"

Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers

2

"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"

In the Void, you see these Creations as seperate, but these Creations are just different version of the same thing and since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously

You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void

"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus"

Plus you know lucifer was created in the overvoid right? The void is a reference to the overvoid.

Not really, you could argue that thats case if the narration which continued in the next page didn't tell that:
"The Mazikeen was born in the Darkness as well. A darkness not of Void, but of rot and warmth"

Put 2 and 2 together and its clearly saying that Lucifer was born in the Darkness, and not that he's the Darkness

Imo, 2018 low-key better than both 2000 and 2016. And I prefer lucifer way more than Sandman. But swampthing is the best

Well, from what I've read before I dropped it, I'm just gonna have to disagree with that. If you like it then cool, I just personally think the 2000 run was way better

 

[Sandman31]

Also, the Presence has been used by tons of different writers so their interpretation of the character are not always going to be the same. At this point the Presence has become more of a concept than a character. There may have been stories/storylines where it could be argued that he's just "one of the gods, but the strongest" but there are also stories which depicts him as clearly being different than the other gods. Trying to cram all of this history in a single "Presence entity" is ultimately going to be a mess

 

[Amakasu]

No, I think thats just what he meant.


"Because it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept " -The Sandman: Overture

What is that supposed to mean exactly? It just means dreams is what gives reality meaning, destiny is only in creation and death claims whatever she will like or not.

From the Presence's profile: The Presence has stated that he was shaped by external forces, apparently intended to be the beliefs and imaginations of humanity, rather than a 4th Wall reference to the writers or real-world humans. This concept was introduced in The Sandman: A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from it's very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats. In Vertigo, dreams, stories and beliefs shapes the universe. The collected dream of a thousand being can rewrite creation from its very beginning to its very end.

This has also been shown in The Dreaming. There's a place in the Dreaming where the most important stories are stored: Creation stories, changing these stories not only changes the Dreaming but also all of creation. The Creation story in the Dreaming was once changed so that the Fall never happened and because of that everything whirled back to its source. Changing the stories in the Dreaming does change reality

Yes, the dreaming can only happen because of the collective Unconsciousness.

There are beings who are not affected by dreams rewriting Creation like Mother Night, Father Time, Glory of the First Circle and possibly Dream

Imo if we used creation myth logic, Odin pre dates lucifer, and he is directly below him. Plus just because these characters survived a rewrite dosen't mean anything exactly. Glory is called Shekinah by Dream, which is the "Glory of the Divine Presence". This makes it extremely likely that the Council of the First Circle are aspects of God. Plus it's stated by dream that the Presence is the strongest being there is, it's not stated that he is the strongest being in creation or existence, it's literally stated the most powerful being there is. Off course it would only apply to beings dream know the glory, mother night, father time and destiny.

Does this mean the Dream created everything or is above everyone?

The answer is no. But it does mean that the Endless are more primal than any gods

"He is not a god; he is older than all the gods, and is their cause. He is the human capacity to imagine meaning, to tell stories: an anthropomorphic projection of our thirst for mythology. And as such, he is both greater and less than the humans whose dreams he shapes, but whose thirst, after all, shapes him. As Titania would say, he does not exist; and thus he is all that matters"

.- The Sandman: Book of Dreams
There are creations that exists before the present one (Even older than the Presence), and beings from these much earlier universe who survived the destruction of their reality. The Jin En Moks are beings who survived the death of their reality and continues to "float" in the Void, one of them was Cestis who came from a much erlier version of creation, the reality where she came from was much older than the Creation of the presence, Cestis herself is much older than the Presence .

Don't really care

"Before there were demons, or a hell to put them in, or a God to curse them--there was Cestis--of the dancing flesh"

There's also The Silk Man, a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God

"Facing here, the Silk Man, isnt around from these parts: he's a relic from a much earlier Creation, and was never sculpted by the hand of God. This makes him uniquely unpredictable and uniquely dangerous"

The Endless likely exists in all these versions of Creation, or at least a version of them, Death was the only Endless was stated to last longer that the present version of Creation

Again don't really care

"And even our existence is brief and bounded, none of us will last longer than this version of Creation"

"Except our sister"

1

"Since past and present have no real meaning here, to argue whether about this Creation came before or after Yahweh's is futile"

Yahweh isnt the only maker, there will be other creations and other makers

2

"Destruction is the single beat of the all-encompassing heart. There will be other Creations and other Makers, far more worthy"

This is so unnecessary

In the Void, you see these Creations as seperate, but these Creations are just different version of the same thing and since time doesnt have meaning in the Void they appear to exists silmultaneously

It's literally never stated that they are the same, it's properly a reference to the difference creations on the overvoid.

You can see this when Lucifer flew into the Void

"There is nothing, there is, has been, will be nothing. All the same, always. But this-this is a possibility, Burgeoning now where nothing was. And being something in the midst of nothing, it becomes the center of focus"

Not interested

Not really, you could argue that thats case if the narration which continued in the next page tells that:
"The Mazikeen was born in the Darkness as well. A darkness not of Void, but of rot and warmth.

You know in the scan you posted earlier where lucifer falls in naraka? There it literally states that the darkness is a similar void in which he was born in, we also know the Presence created lucifer in the void and lucifer laughed at the very blackness of the void.

Put 2 and 2 together and its clearly saying that Lucifer was born in the Darkness, and not that he's the Darkness

I think I already explained this

Well, from what I've read before I dropped it, I'm just gonna have to disagree with that. If you like it then cool, I just personally think the 2000 run was way better

It gets a lot better as you read it.

 

[Amakasu]

Also, the Presence has been used by tons of different writers so their interpretation of the character are not always going to be the same. At this point the Presence has become more of a concept than a character. There may have been stories/storylines where it could be argued that he's just "one of the gods, but the strongest" but there are also stories which depicts him as clearly being different than the other gods. Trying to cram all of this history in a single "Presence entity" is ultimately going to be a mess

I don't think so. The Presence is a being who trancends everything in DC. He is the source who sits above everyone in creation. His maybe lesser aspects of maybe influenced by belief but that's it.

 

[Sandman31]

It's literally never stated that they are the same, it's properly a reference to the difference creations on the overvoid.

Why would they reference something that something thats like 10+ years in the future? Sandman already said that Creation is cyclical and that there are different versions of Creations. When Creation ends, another version will pop up. Overture already said that there is only 1 Creation but just different versions

Thats why the scan said it doesnt matter whether those Creations came before or after the Presence, as they were in timeless Void all of them exist at the same time because the Void doesnt have time.

You know in the scan you posted earlier where lucifer falls in naraka? There it literally states that the darkness is a similar void in which he was born in, we also know the Presence created lucifer in the void and lucifer laughed at the very blackness of the void.

Thats what I said? Did I say that he was born in Naraka? You said that the Presence shaped the Darkness into Lucifer, but that clearly isnt true because Lucifer said he came into being in the Darkness

Imo if we used creation myth logic, Odin pre dates lucifer, and he is directly below him. Plus just because these characters survived a rewrite dosen't mean anything exactly. Glory is called Shekinah by Dream, which is the "Glory of the Divine Presence". This makes it extremely likely that the Council of the First Circle are aspects of God. Plus it's stated by dream that the Presence is the strongest being there is, it's not stated that he is the strongest being in creation or existence, it's literally stated the most powerful being there is. Off course it would only apply to beings dream know the glory, mother night, father time and destiny.

Odin doesnt preadate Lucifer, maybe reading the post help? Dreams made it so that The Presence is the Creator, from the very beginning. Its not like the Presence and Lucifer just popped when Christianity became popular. What happened is that Creation was change so that the Presence has always existed and is always the creator of Creation.

Why would he mention Mother Night and Father Time when they only first appeared in Overture?

 

[Amakasu]

It's literally never stated that they are the same, it's properly a reference to the difference creations on the overvoid.

Why would they reference something that something thats like 10+ years in the future? Sandman already said that Creation is cyclical and that there are different versions of Creations. When Creation ends, another version will pop up.

Because the idea of other creations existing in the void was a reference in lucifer. The overvoid had already existed far far before lucifer in animal man. So I think grant Morrison and synder took inspiration from that. Also Synder had read lucifer and talked about this in his interview with imaginary axis, plus he created the concept of the greater omnivere. That's my interpretation tho.

You know in the scan you posted earlier where lucifer falls in naraka? There it literally states that the darkness is a similar void in which he was born in, we also know the Presence created lucifer in the void and lucifer laughed at the very blackness of the void.

Thats what I said? Did I say that he was born in Naraka? I said that the Presence shaped the Darkness into Lucifer, but that clearly isnt true because Lucifer said he came into being in the Darkness

You used the scan of lucifer diving in naraka to suggest he was born in the darkness or geb, but that scans just says he was born in a similar void, which can be the overvoid.

Imo if we used creation myth logic, Odin pre dates lucifer, and he is directly below him. Plus just because these characters survived a rewrite dosen't mean anything exactly. Glory is called Shekinah by Dream, which is the "Glory of the Divine Presence". This makes it extremely likely that the Council of the First Circle are aspects of God. Plus it's stated by dream that the Presence is the strongest being there is, it's not stated that he is the strongest being in creation or existence, it's literally stated the most powerful being there is. Off course it would only apply to beings dream know the glory, mother night, father time and destiny.

Odin doesnt preadate Lucifer, maybe reading the post help? Dreams made it so that The Presence is the Creator, from the very beginning. Its not like the Presence and Lucifer just popped when Christianity became popular. What happened is that Creation was change so that the Presence has always existed and is the creator of Creation.

Nah not exactly, Odin says that from his perceptive hell is relatively young because it just came in the minds of people.

Why would he mention Mother Night and Father Time when they only first appeared in Overture?

Because those people are who dreams specifically knows. Overtrue from what I read is a prequel or some sort (read it a long time ago) so him knowing mother night and these characters are just expanded.

 

[Deagonx]

Not just Lucifer but all the Gods are shaped by belief.

Lucifer isn't a god.

 

[Xearsay]

That's not what my comment saids. Maybe you should read it again instead of trying to derail the discussion into some nonsense.

 

[Amakasu]

I think the justification for upside down man and hecate trancending geb is not valid. But I do think they should be upgraded to 1A.

 

[Deagonx]

That's not what my comment saids.

said* and yes it did, "Not just Lucifer, but all the gods" indicates that Lucifer is a god. E.g. "Not just Roosevelt but all American presidents" etc.

If you make a false claim, and it's responded to, that's not derailing. If what you feel the discussion is off-topic, you shouldn't bring it up in the first place.

 

[Sandman31]

Because the idea of other creations existing in the void was a reference in lucifer. The overvoid had already existed far far before lucifer in animal man. So I think grant Morrison and synder took inspiration from that. Also Synder had read lucifer and talked about this in his interview with imaginary axis, plus he created the concept of the greater omnivere. That's my interpretation tho.

Then it would be Morrison referencing Lucifer and not the other way around. The scene of Lucifer in the Void is obviously referencing to the fact that Creation is cyclical and being in the timeless Void was what enabled him to view all of those Creations which came before or after the Presence.

Why else would they mention the timeless nature of the Void and how it doesn't matter that the Creations there came before or after the Presence?

You used the scan of lucifer diving in naraka to suggest he was born in the darkness or geb, but that scans just says he was born in a similar void, which can be the overvoid.

Because those scans are in order.
1
2
The Naraka narrations states that Lucifer was born in a similar Void. Then it continued on to the next page that that Void was the Darkness. So that's definitely not the Overvoid

Nah not exactly, Odin says that from his perceptive hell is relatively young because it just came in the minds of people.

Doesnt really say anything about how he is older than Lucifer or The Presence, Lucifer and the Presence are much older than hell. Hell also have different contradicting history, it was said that Lucifer was casted into the Chaoplasm and Hell formed around him but in Hellblazers it was said that the FotF was already in Hell waiting for him. So you could just add to one of the history of Hell. Or maybe Odin is right, Hell is young because just like Heaven, humans create their own hell, so these hells aren't really that old. Lucifer and the other fallen angels could be sitting in the place where Hell would come to exist even before Christianity existed.

 

[Xearsay]

Not just Lucifer but all “of” the Gods. Implying not only Lucifer but the all of the Gods as well.
No where is that stating Lucifer is titled as God or something like that. However he is comparable to other deities.

And once again this is derailing. The discussion was not about whether you Lucifer is a God or not.

 

[Deagonx]

Implying not only Lucifer but the all of the Gods as well.

Yes, which implicates Lucifer in the latter category. That's pretty simple grammar.

And once again this is derailing. The discussion was not about whether you Lucifer is a God or not.

1) You made the choice to make that claim

2) You made the choice to respond even though you agreed with what I was saying. If you make a false claim, it will be addressed.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes, which implicates Lucifer in the latter category. That's pretty simple grammar.


1) You made the choice to make that claim

2) You made the choice to respond even though you agreed with what I was saying. If you make a false claim, it will be addressed.

Maybe to you but that’s not what I was trying to imply.

I made the choice to respond to tell you to stop derailing my thread. You want to discuss whether Lucifer is a god or not? Go do it in another thread. Don’t sully mine.

 

[Amakasu]

Because the idea of other creations existing in the void was a reference in lucifer. The overvoid had already existed far far before lucifer in animal man. So I think grant Morrison and synder took inspiration from that. Also Synder had read lucifer and talked about this in his interview with imaginary axis, plus he created the concept of the greater omnivere. That's my interpretation tho.

Then it would be Morrison referencing Lucifer and not the other way around. The scene of Lucifer in the Void is obviously referencing to the fact that Creation is cyclical and being in the timeless Void was what enabled him to view all of those Creations which came before or after the Presence.

See, animal man came out way before lucifer, and it was the comic where overvoid was first shown. The creations in the void however is a concept created by lucifer, and later used to make the greater omnivere. That's the most consistent Interpretation of this thing, as we know the void lucifer goes to in the last is the overvoid and there's creations in the overvoid like the void in lucifer. The Other creations are created by other makers who I think is the super Celestials which makes sense for them to be.

Why else would they mention the timeless nature of the Void and how it doesn't matter that the Creations there came before or after the Presence?

Because creations in the void arenot created in the same manor so one creation can be older and one can be younger, and even the quote "it dosen't meant that yaweh's creation came first or last" dosen't mean anything, the void is timeless so there's no form of time or change, so saying something is younger or older is pointless there as the very concepts of them don't exist there

You used the scan of lucifer diving in naraka to suggest he was born in the darkness or geb, but that scans just says he was born in a similar void, which can be the overvoid.

Because those scans are in order.
1
2
The Naraka narrations states that Lucifer said that Lucifer was born in a similar Void. Then it continued on to the next page that that Void was the Darkness. So that's definitely not the Overvoid

What? It's literally stated that the void lucifer goes through is a void similar to where he was born, then there page after that says maze was also born in a void. It doesn't say anything like "lucifer was born in the darkness" it just says lucifer was born in a similar void which is the overvoid as lucifer's birth happened outside creation and then he created creation with his brothers.

Nah not exactly, Odin says that from his perceptive hell is relatively young because it just came in the minds of people.

Doesnt really say anything about how he is older than Lucifer or The Presence, Lucifer and the Presence are much older than hell. Hell also have different contradicting history, it was said that Lucifer was casted into the Chaoplasm and Hell formed around him but in Hellblazers it was said that the FotF was already in Hell waiting for him. Or that Odin is right, Hell is young because just like Heaven, humans create their own hell, so these hells aren't really that old. Lucifer and the other fallen angels could be sitting in the place where Hell would come to exist even before Christianity existed.

Odin says that he dosen't know who lucifer or hell is and asks how old is this realm, to which lucifer replies with it's almost old as creation, and odin replies with that to him this place is not old because this place just recently got in the minds and hearts of humans.

 

[Sandman31]

See, animal man came out way before lucifer, and it was the comic where overvoid was first shown. The creations in the void however is a concept created by lucifer, and later used to make the greater omnivere. That's the most consistent Interpretation of this thing, as we know the void lucifer goes to in the last is the overvoid and there's creations in the overvoid like the void in lucifer. The Other creations are created by other makers who I think is the super Celestials which makes sense for them to be.

I know Animal Man came out way before universe.

Its not the most consistent interpretation of this thing. How could it be the most consistent interpretation when you're trying to connect multiple stories that are decades apart and has nothing to with each other?

The most consistent interpretation here is whats told in the series itself and in its related series. You're supplanting things that are established within the series itself with interpretations that is based on storylines that are either 10 years older or 10 years after the end of the run.

What? It's literally stated that the void lucifer goes through is a void similar to where he was born, then there page after that says maze was also born in a void. It doesn't say anything like "lucifer was born in the darkness" it just says lucifer was born in a similar void which is the overvoid as lucifer's birth happened outside creation and then he created creation with his brothers.

Looks like I have to spell it out for you and dissect how the sentence is structured points to Lucifer being born in the Void of Darkness

"The Void by its nature, a nothing place.It is not cold or warm. There is no sensation of sinking. There is no sensation at all. It is infinite familiar to Lucifer. He came into being into somewhere just like this.....(continues to the next page). Mazikeen was born in Darkness as well. Darkness not of Void but of rot and warmth"

The Narration was making a comparison. First it mentions how Lucifer was born in a similar Void then it continues to say that Mazikeen, just like Lucifer, was born in darkness, but a darkness of rot and warmth not like the void of darkness where Lucifer came into being

Do you expect everything to be spelled out to you so straightforwardly?

Odin says that he dosen't know who lucifer or hell is and asks how old is this realm, to which lucifer replies with it's almost old as creation, and odin replies with that to him this place is not old because this place just recently got in the minds and hearts of humans.

Then it just sounds like Odin is not talking about the actual age of Hell, and more of how Hell has entered the minds of humans which only happened after the popularization of Christianity. But we know that Lucifer and the place that would later be called Hell already exists even before Christianity itself.

Hell, in Books of Magic, Tim and The Phantom Stranger's road trip through time started with Lucifer's rebellion and they passed other mythologies older than christianity as they walk through time up to the end of the universe

 

[Amakasu]

See, animal man came out way before lucifer, and it was the comic where overvoid was first shown. The creations in the void however is a concept created by lucifer, and later used to make the greater omnivere. That's the most consistent Interpretation of this thing, as we know the void lucifer goes to in the last is the overvoid and there's creations in the overvoid like the void in lucifer. The Other creations are created by other makers who I think is the super Celestials which makes sense for them to be.

I know Animal Man came out way before universe.

Its not the most consistent interpretation of this thing. How could it be the most consistent interpretation when you're trying to connect multiple stories that are decades apart and has nothing to with each other?

The most consistent interpretation here is whats told in the series itself and in its related series. You're supplanting things that are established within the series itself with interpretations that is based on storylines that are either 10 years older or 10 years after the end of the run.

Wait, what? You know lucifer, Sandman, Animal man and others contribute to DC right? Everything that happens in these comics is applied to the greater dc verse, that's why whenever there's mention of infinte dimensions or outerversal planes we take that as part of canon, just because these comics are not in the same year dosen't negate the fact they can be connected. We have to look consistency, not argue with baseless arguments. You legit are trying to argue that lucifer has it's own version of dc.

What? It's literally stated that the void lucifer goes through is a void similar to where he was born, then there page after that says maze was also born in a void. It doesn't say anything like "lucifer was born in the darkness" it just says lucifer was born in a similar void which is the overvoid as lucifer's birth happened outside creation and then he created creation with his brothers.

Looks like I have to spell it out for you and dissect how the sentence is structured points to Lucifer being born in the Void of Darkness

"The Void by its nature, a nothing place.It is not cold or warm. There is no sensation of sinking. There is no sensation at all. It is infinite familiar to Lucifer. He came into being into somewhere just like this.....(continues to the next page). Mazikeen was born in Darkness as well. Darkness not of Void but of rot and warmth"

The Narration was making a comparison. First it mentions how Lucifer was born in a similar Void then it continues to say that Mazikeen, just like Lucifer, was born in darkness, but a darkness of rot and warmth not like the void of darkness where Lucifer came into being

Do you expect everything to be spelled out to you so straightforwardly?

What, no. "The darkness not of void" this quote is very vauge, just because it says darkness dosent mean it's geb. Even back in lucifer the void is shown black when the Presence talk to Elaine and helds all of creation in his hand.

Odin says that he dosen't know who lucifer or hell is and asks how old is this realm, to which lucifer replies with it's almost old as creation, and odin replies with that to him this place is not old because this place just recently got in the minds and hearts of humans.

Then it just sounds like Odin is not talking about the actual age of Hell, and more of how Hell has entered the minds of humans which only happened after the popularization of Christianity. But we know that Lucifer and the place that would later be called Hell already exists even before Christianity itself.

Hell, in Books of Magic, Tim and The Phantom Stranger's road trip through time started with Lucifer's rebellion and they passed other mythologies older than christianity as they walk through time up to the end of the universe

Yes, that's why I say shape rather than create. Lucifer and his family is shaped by belief, not created by them.

 

[Deagonx]

Maybe to you

That's how English works.

You want to discuss whether Lucifer is a god or not? Go do it in another thread

Then don't make a false claim saying otherwise, and I won't be compelled to debunk it.

 

[Amakasu]

Omg. We are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Can we now decide if this upgrade is possible?

 

[Xearsay]

Omg. We are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Can we now decide if this upgrade is possible?

Well the majority agreed and I already wrote out the statement. Just waiting for moderator response at this point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well it's again stated in issue 19 to 24 where he is called the great beast multiple times, and said to be the darkness.

Provide actual scans.

"Great Beast" is a generic moniker. Seems more like a reference to the Beast of Revelation than anything in particular.