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Versatility and Hax Tiering Attempts

Ignoring hierachy is kind of a complimentary power. It's useless alone and might even be detrimental, but with a strong enough tool set of abilities that can be infinitely scaled up (such as sealing, erasure, nulling), you can turn it into a very strong benefit. I usually see hierachy ignoring as a property of attacks that are particularly haxed or good at bypassing resistances. It'll be even worse if it does not grant the ability to actually reach a higher dimensional being who is moving along their extra dimension, or doesn't grant the ability to bypass resistances that are applied on top of the innate abilities of a high ranking entity.

I see!
 
Just damage them, and only if their durability is low enough relative to their dimensionality. Instinctive reactions compensate for being unable to move like that.
 
Perhaps achieved by some kind of magical energy that resonates through the entirety of a structure that it touches, regardless of how many dimensions it is composed of. Or perhaps the ability to damage the entirety of a structure from attacaking just a part of it, regardless of shape and form.

Then just make it a double edged sword and allow this power to hurt you, so lower dimensional beings can do the same thing back.
 
SauceSorcery said:
Wow, the wiki ate my reply... Here's a short and modified version of what I was writing.
I tried my own hand at making a hax tiering system years before joining the wiki in order to rank the placement of powers and abilities in my fantasy setting. They're based on their degree of transcendence over mortal limitations and how close they come to operating on a level of true platonic concepts. To put it simply, killing a human is easier than killing a regenerating ghost, so the latter inherently requires a higher tier of abilities to be put down.

[tier system ensues]
Click to expand...
Wow. This was really damn impressive. Way better than mine. I'd just perhaps split your first through third tiers into two or three more while maybe doing something about the fifth and sixth. That's because the fifth and sixth seemed to have to do with power to a degree more than versatility (or maybe I just understood them wrong) and maybe could be merged, while the second and third tiers have a lot more nuance, such as the power to control the electromagnetic force entirely (virtual and real photons of all kinds, plus any particle with a charge), which is anywhere on second or third tiers depending only on how good the user is, potentially posing a significant threat to fourth-tiers.

I also kinda struggle with the fact that powers can "increase" or "decrease" in versatility depending on the user. A dumb user may use the entire electromagnetic force as just a gourmet name for lightning bolts, while a smart one has telekinesis, elemental manipulation, low level Regenerationn, ridiculously fast reaction speed, body limits breaking, audiovisual illusions, physical attributes enhancement, powerful plasma shields which repel anything that touches them, radiation of all kinds below and above the visible spectrum (do you know how OP microwaves are?) and so much more, that without even exaggerating how smart/precise/powerful the character's ability with that power is, just raw knowledge and the training to apply it. With more than that, you get matter manipulation, mind reading and control... etc. If you get esoteric and start speaking about electromagnetic fields from spirits and quantum woo, you get even more stuff and risk becoming a low key fourth-tier.

EDIT: Not to mention that the power to manipulate virtual photons can create a virtual immunity to any form of mechanical force, just by unconsciously reflecting undesirable ones from you.
 
I would like to set apart "law manipulation" and "instance manipulation". For instance, controlling the electromagnetic force can be done in two ways. Either you can generate, alter and control instances of the force, or manipulate the entire force through law manipulation... The reason why I make this distinction is because controlling the entire force would probably put you in the fourth tier due to manipulating a broad limit, everywhere and constantly, while manipulating instances of it would be a third tier ability. Even worse if you're restricted to just surface level manipulation or just generation.

This Law/Instance split applies to everything you can think of in the laws of physics, reality, space and time.

I may merge the fifth and sixth tiers since they're basically built on the same principles. The minimum level of hax that an outerversal would use against an outerversal by using an outerversal version of it; ex: Outerversal erasure, outerversal sealing, outerversal power null, etc, while the tiers below don't mean anything to them.

There are three ways to look at it I suppose. Either you can view hax as its basic application, its full potential or you can take its full potential and judge its applications separately, meaning that the individual uses of electromagnetic manipulation are the things we're judging, while electromagnetic manipulation itself becomes more of a "hax domain" with its own tier depending on if it's manipulated by law or by instance, as well as the competency of the person using it.

The "hax domain" thing is actually what I intended to be the distinction for the fifth and sixth tiers. Where having just one of the "offensive" sixth tier hax is all you need to achieve a lot of fifth tier applications. For instance, presence manipulation has a variety of applications, as it means to control whether or not something is present and how/where it is present, including omnipresence. It can also be described as "coordinates manipulation".

The last thing to think about is the potency. When trying to compare hax, the hard part is trying to arbitrarily equalise the potency so that they can be grouped together. For instance, you could raise the temperature of the entire universe until physics no longer resembles anything we know and it would still be just heat manipulation being taken to the point of breaking our understanding of physics... So the best I could do was create principles to guide the hax into large, broad categories.
 
Oh, now that I read this, I see no reason to merge tiers. At most, I'd still separate tiers 2 and 3 into two more tiers or so. This way we could have tiers go from say, 0 to 10, with 10 being Omnipotence.

That's because within 2 there are powers which are a lot more or less versatile.

Look at Adult Aang for example. He has firebending, potentially electricity bending, water bending, potentially blood bending, earthbending, metal bending, air bending, seismic sense and power removal. I'm not sure if any direct attack to a target (bloodbending is his only) fits Tier 3, and if not, this here blurs the lines.

At the same time, Uvogin from Hunter x Hunter is basically an enhanced brawler with not much that's notable and Gon isn't a lot better than a normal person with a rifle and a bayonet.
 
Tier 2 is based on my fantasy setting (particularly, a place called the 'basic realm') where blood bending, manifesting concrete in the foe's lungs and everything that directly applies/travels to the foe in non-physical form first is illegal within the setting itself due to some "soul protecting range" thing. Mechnically, all intelligent beings (all intelligent beings have souls) control magic in its non-physical and physical form, but cannot 'activate' magic that's closer to an intelligent being than it is to themselves due to the soul's aura.

Tier 3 is when you can take elementalism and do exactly that to your opponent, manifesting the elements out of thin air and away from your body to do less conventional things, which can incapacitate some of the monsters listed in tier 3 such as the undead, but will certainly kill beings who live off of the first two tiers, possibly without them being able to do anything about it, unless speed, range, intelligence, potency or some limitation is involved.

Bending for the most part is explicitly tier 2 until you start blood bending or manipulating people's insides in any way, ex: Sucking the air out of someone's body. It is an entire separation of hax application because you can dodge all tier 2 hax if you're sufficiently fast, but you can't dodge all tier 3 hax necessarily, unless it's limited in a way that makes it dodgeable.

But I suppose doing soul hax and polymorph could be seen as a level above the more 'rude' uses of elemental manipulation and some other things that only barely make it out of tier 2 by being directly applied to the foe's insides, which is not available against a ghost.

I don't see too much of a range in tier 2 though. Amping your speed is a tier 2 hax ability by my definition, but even though it is purely physical, it can be used against all tier 2 hax since tier 2 hax by nature is usually dodgeable due to lacking the 'apply directly to opponent instantly' aspect of latter hax. From there, it all comes down to which is more potent, your speed amp or your foe's elementalism.
 
I see :3

So we can split Tier 3 into a lower end so that it becomes like this...

Tier 0 - Punches and kicks, that kind of material and basic stuff

Tier 1 - No direct effect on enemy, not intangible, pretty material

Tier 2 - Direct effect on enemy but simple ability that wouldn't work on more broken opponents like those with high regen level, ghosts, hard to kill elementals or tough undeads.

Tier 3 - Direct effect and more abstract stuff like what would take down said opponents.

Tier 4 - Stuff like space, time and lower levels of reality manip.

Tier 5 - Functions of logic which can be scaled infinitely, stuff that can fight timeless opponents and other kinds of "low end" abstract-ish enemies.

Tier 6 - Hax domain with several Tier 5 applications

Tier 7 - Creation of all laws that govern reality

Tier 8 - Transcendence of pretty much everything, being of a platonic form level

Tier 9 - True Omnipotence

How about that? You can edit/add details and examples to anything you wish.
 
This is fine. A great example of higher tier hax beings are the causa-sui's. Beings who created themselves from nothing without assistance and depending on the degree of their self-creation, such as whether or not they created their own concepts, how close to nothing they were before they created themselves and if they could do it in frozen time or outside of time, or possibly other laws, determines the tier of causa-sui physiology and directly implies a high level of Regenerationn.

It can range from tier 4 to tier 8, though tier 8's usually just 'always exist' and lack even an acasual/time-transcending beginning, making its usual limit tier 7.

A strong causa sui is the focus of the higher parts of my fantasy setting, being all about how there is a being who can convince all beings below him of the false idea of being omnipotent due to predating almost all laws and foundations, when really there are two tiers of beings above him that he can't even affect and can barely perceive. It features humility and fear of the unknown.

Now try filling the iters up with hax examples, putting it to the test.
 
I see. owo Also, before that, another question... is being versatile enough to fight someone with a certain level of hax itself a hax from that tier? Like, tier 3 is meant to defeat tough ghosts and such, so I suppose being a ghost or otherwise capable of defending oneself from tier 3 attacks would give one tier 3 defensive capabilities? It's not like hax is always offensive.
 
Yes. The tiers are also based on having the necessary hax to put down an increasingly durable foe.

Different forms of physiology are found throughout the tiers and higher ones lend themselves to plenty of defensive hax, including but not limited to Regenerationn, levels of non-corporeal and a lack of weaknesses associated with being mortal. You can also expect that a resistance to a hax is equal in tier to the hax itself.
 
Tier 0 — Purely physical, non-magical abilities such as punches and kicks.

Tier 1 — Purely tangible, yet superhuman abilities. (Ex: Stat Amping, Fireballs, Earthbending)

Tier 2 — Abilities capable of being unavoidable. (Ex: Microwave emissions into one's brain to blow it up, airbending or bloodbending directly inside someone, "skipping steps" in one's move so that a punch hits its target without wind-up or being sent towards them)

Tier 3 — Abilities capable of taking down characters which cannot be defeated by previous tiers unless they are under a power disadvantage of many orders of magnitude and maybe not even then, such as ghosts, people with extremely high Regenerationn, some energy beings and tough undead. (Ex: Ainz Ooal Gown's The Goal of All Life is Death, Soul Manipulation, Beerus's Hakai)

Tier 4 — Abilities that manipulate concepts which are inescapable in mortal life, such as time, space and the laws of reality. (Ex: Star Platinum's The World, that Fate lance which kills the person before being thrown, Golden Experience Requiem)
 
Non-existence physiology is probably inherently high up as well, at least tier 4 considering what tier 3 consists of. What do you think of non-existence physiology?
 
I failed to make a more objective/clear description than yours for Tier 5 or make some interesting examples of powers from that level so I left that and above tiers out for now. Your "features of logic" concept is somewhat difficult to wrap my head around.

You talked quite a bit about your verse which I personally don't understand. Mine only has powers up to Tier 4 or maybe 5~6, but pretty much everyone resists stuff that directly attempts to affect them. That's because all supernatural objects and monsters (humans belonging to the latter group due to being "animals with supernatural capabilities" in this world) have their supernaturality subtly (to the point it's not noticeable on a macroscopic scale) distort the behavior of everything around them by disturbing the laws of reality. This means that any power that tries to manifest directly inside them is resisted before it can even generate its effect, making so they can resist even something that comes from someone insanely more powerful than they are. This works even on powers that are supposed to alter these laws of realities themselves: it's like stopping a muscle from contracting on the first tensions for those, or like blocking the neural signs from reaching on the others. It's possible to bypass this resistance in a lot of ways, though, and many characters have a fighting style based on approaching someone to touch them and use their powers directly on the touched region.
 
SauceSorcery said:
Non-existence physiology is probably inherently high up as well, at least tier 4 considering what tier 3 consists of. What do you think of non-existence physiology?
Click to expand...
Doesn't that require Tier 5 powers to defeat?
 
I also realized that we could perhaps branch off Tier 1/2 by separating into another category powers which can bypass typical defenses. Durability negation would be one example. That's where hax often begins. Or maybe this criteria could be added to Tier 2.

Also, if Tiers 5 and 6 are merged, then this could also stop being a versatility tier list and become merely a hax tier list which speaks only about how haxxed a power is, with no regards to their actual versatility. This would allow us to make a different tier list for versatility, which may or may not be interesting.
 
Level 1: These abilities require setup to be useful/are only good for one thing without extreme creativity. Examples: Survivor, Paralysis Inducement.

Level 2: These powers have some options, and are regularly useful. Examples: Most manipulations, Telepathy.

Level 3: Starting from here, powers will regularly start to overlap with each other, having a wide variety of options. Examples: Mastered manipulations, high-level Shapeshifting

Level 4: These powers grant almost limitless possibilities. Examples: Reality Warping, Higher-Dimensional Existence

Level 5: This is the level that takes Cure Yell's words too literally. Examples: Omnipotence
 
The God Of Procrastination said:
Level 1: These abilities require setup to be useful/are only good for one thing without extreme creativity. Examples: Survivor, Paralysis Inducement.
Level 2: These powers have some options, and are regularly useful. Examples: Most manipulations, Telepathy.

Level 3: Starting from here, powers will regularly start to overlap with each other, having a wide variety of options. Examples: Mastered manipulations, high-level Shapeshifting

Level 4: These powers grant almost limitless possibilities. Examples: Reality Warping, Higher-Dimensional Existence

Level 5: This is the level that takes Cure Yell's words too literally. Examples: Omnipotence
Click to expand...
Holy, your list looks like it goes up on a double exponent :v

Level 1 = barely useful

Level 2 = run-of-the-mill versatile-ish powers

Level 3 = very smart powers

Level 4 = SEMI OMNIPOTENCE

Level 5 = OMNIPOTENCE ITSELF
 
Well when it comes to versatility and going by the number of applications rather than potency or anything else. Inevitably the first level is going to be hax with exactly one use and the last level is going to be hax with infinite uses or can be applied to all things.

Then you have to figure out how to go from 1 to infinity in a finite number of levels.
 
There are many levels of infinities before the "applied to all things" category. Even simple telekinesis can be applied on an infinity of ways.

Yeah, it's complicated
 
Perhaps each level could be a different layer or multiplication of infinity?

The first level being hax with a fixed use (induce physical paralysis), then hax that hax a fixed usage that can be stretched to all physical things at least (telekinesis), then hax that either contains more than one application (electromagnetic manipulation) or hax that can affect non-physical things (mind/soul hax), then hax that contains infinite applications, possibly individual applications that can be applied to everything on the level of the previous tier (law manipulation), then omnipotence being; hax that contains all hax and can do anything (omnipotence is the only qualifier)?

This is just a draft.
 
That's a good idea, but it's not as if illusionism, even Aizen level, is above electromagnetism. I'd rather have something like "both physical and non-physical".

Like, illusionism would be probably akin to telekinesis. Full-blown telepathy would be equivalent to electromagnetism. Illusions, including real ones, would be on the level above electromagnetism.

But yeah.

Tier F - Useless power

Tier E - Fixed use

Tier D - Fixed and restricted function which can be stretched in a numberless amount of small ways which do not take over the physical or non-physical realm completely. (e.g: firebending, basic telepathy)

Tier C - Power which can be stretched to either all physical things or a non-physical realm (e.g: illusionism of all five senses, telekinesis)

Tier B - Power that contains more than one application on the level of Tier 3 (e.g: Electromagnetism, mind control)

Tier A - Power that stretches over physical and non-physical targets (illusions which include real illusions)

Tier S - Hax that contains infinite applications on the level of Tier 4, multiple of Tier 5 (e.g: Law Manip)

Tier Z - Hax that can do all things.

Though this is still just a sketch.
 
SauceSorcery made a very interesting hax scale which I'm helping refine, as well as make a versatility one owo
 
I'm just asking because where might Cha-Cha be placed now?

And also I have come up with some interesting ability Ikaruga in my adaption

Also, where would someone be placed if they can create and manipulate blackholes?
 
In the main hax tiering, I have been thinking a lot about the tier that is second from omnipotent. Particularly a character draft or character sketch of an outerversal character with a set of specific abilities.

I have found that the mentality behind this level of hax goes as follows "I must be as powerful as possible without using the term omnipotent and I must be prepared to fight other beings trying to do the same thing as me." - Of course also taking into consideration that outerversal entities transcend time, space and probably a number of other things by default so being extremely haxed requires hax that is either conceptual, or is a conceptual version of hax that normally doesn't work, such as how time/space manipulation doesn't work here. More on that later.

The hax in this tier is often so abstract that it can often be made independent from other concepts due to the abstract nature of which it can be described. But what separates it from the tiers below that already begin to cover some abstract hax is the level of transcendence (outerverse hax may approach, equal or surpass true platonic concepts) and the applications of it are either vast or very inherently potent, designed to work on beings that offer very little in terms of exploitable weaknesses, as outerversal beings have a distinct lack of "vital functions" as well as bounds.

This can place it above very potent hax that still relies on other concepts such as plot hax and fate hax. The concepts that this hax does rely on are pretty hard to fully escape from, such as being an entity, having a function or information, possibly following metaphysical laws, etc.

Here are the abilities I gave the character: "Apeiron".

Transcendence inducement, Transcendence null (Outerversal) Retroactive, Functionality Manipulation, Functionality Removal, Resistance and immunity null, immutability, mu perspective, mu negate, entity manipulation, encryption filter.

Only listing abilities that I made or I find extra notable. Apeiron has much of the standard outerverse abilities too, such as true godly.

Explanations of the less common ones.

Transcendence inducement "Targets anything, user transcends its properties, rendering it not applicable to the user. If used in conjunction with another power, the power can transcend attempts to block or interrupt it."

Transcendence null "The inverse of the above. Is able to remove a target's degree of transcendence over bounds, push a target below bounds, impose bounds on a target, lift existing bounds above them."

(Outerversal) Retroactive "The funny explanation is that it allows the user to for example; power null the foe before power nulling the foe at all. The real explanation is that it allows a power to be applied to the absolute state of the outerverse as if it was always that way by default, even before Outerversal Retroactive is used. It is like being able to apply powers retroactively, even though outerversals already transcend time, it is retroactive from their timeless point of view, making it comparable to a timeless/concept version of past manipulation. It can also be seen as vaguely similar to law manipulation due to how it works."

Functionality manipulation "Manipulates the functionality of the target, including properties that are outerversal by nature. The only things truly immune to it are things that lack functions entirely. The only other way to be immune is to be unidentifiable or undefinable to the user... In short, if the user can comprehend you, you and your attacks will get functionality manipulated. This can be applied to foes who transcend information."

Functionality removal "Similar to the above. Removes the functionality of the target."

Immutability "Immunity to change. Simple as that."

Mu perspective "When a change occurs, it is either a change in your perspective or a change in reality, as well as either a change to you or a change to your surroundings that makes it seem like you're the one being altered, ex: 'Are you moving or is everything else moving?'. Mu Perspective allows a power to be none of these things, but take affect anyway, making it impossible to resist as resisting anything implies that it is being applied to the target and thus has to go through resistances. Even protecting perspective, reality, you and your surroundings simultaneously won't stop it for it does not work like an 'or' function. However, Mu Perspective can be used on its own."

(Standard use) "When Mu Perspective is used on its own instead of in conjunction with another power, it has a default effect, similar to transcendence null. It creates a duality of 'lifting the entire setting's hierarchy up above the target' and 'demoting the target to a below dimensional level', both having the same result, but the power itself cancels out both causes... In a way, the power is best described as an extreme version of cause and effect manipulation where not only the cause is removed, but the result is completely detached from all implications of the cause whatsoever, save for the very result itself, so much so that it can technically change things without changing anything about them; it works on immutability."

Mu negate "View reality as a set of questions, where yes confirms its state and no confirms an opposing state. Ex: Does cheese exist? 'Yes' makes it exist, 'No' erases all cheese... Mu negate is to go back and 'un-ask' the question, thus causing all implications of the question to cease, thus erasing the target on a higher level and keeping them from coming back as the 'question of them' is no longer 'asked'."

Entity manipulation "The ability to manipulate anything that is considered to be an entity. Mind, soul and body manipulation resistances does not resist entity manipulation, for those are only symptoms of the cause."

Encryption filter "A self applied power that makes the user and its powers impossible to comprehend or understand to beings of a similar level. May induce madness and confusion in those with weak mental fortitude."

What can you make of this? Is there a method to the madness? Or a madness to the method?
 
Okay, here is a new thought.

What if we tiered NOT the potency, the type of hax or its versatility, but rather, how it's applied?

I'm thinking something like this:

Tier F: Touch: Assuming the character is limited to a body, this is the worst way to deliver hax (in short notice) as it can be completely avoided and sometimes shutdown by covering the opponent. It is only surpassed in badness by gimmick hax, requiring lots of conditions, prep or complications to work.

Tier E: Projectile: This max the hax easy to dodge and implies that it can be blocked, deflected or even redirected. Other means of physically delivering hax may be slightly higher in this tier or the next tier. This is bad for offensive hax, but isn't as bad for helpful hax for allies.

Tier D: Motion: The hax is activated by performing a motion. Such as the Vrock's dance of ruin. Presumably, if the motion is physically disrupted, the hax is prevented. If the motion is completed, it is applied.

Tier B: Thought-based: The hax is activated with a thought. As soon as the user thinks, it is applied to the foe like telekinesis or telepathy. Anything disrupting thought might disrupt this hax.

Tier S: True passive: The hax applies instantly, automatically without thought or other conditions, within the character's range... It is not an aura, a spell or a projectile either, it simply happens. This is the omnipotent of hax applications.
 
This list is not exhaustive, there's aura, there's sensory information hax (look at it, smell it, touch it, taste it, hear it - it hurts) there's reverse sensory hax (if it sees you, smells you, etc. It hurts.)

But I will admit that touch is worse than projectile.

The only thing worse is hax with way too much prep or too many conditions, in short, gimmick hax.
 
There's also touch-based, but you need to think about it, which is either on the borderline of gimmick hax, the most common gimmick hax, or touch-based is actually range.
 
SauceSorcery said:
This list is not exhaustive, there's aura, there's sensory information hax (look at it, smell it, touch it, taste it, hear it - it hurts) there's reverse sensory hax (if it sees you, smells you, etc. It hurts.)

But I will admit that touch is worse than projectile.

The only thing worse is hax with way too much prep or too many conditions, in short, gimmick hax.
Click to expand...
I would say that hax to start with preparation is a different concept from the above tiers. Say Evil Containment Wave has to be started with a seal-able container with a specially processed "Demon Seal" sticker. But once the sealing starts, the target (and the life energy of the caster) will be drained into the container for sealing.

The God Of Procrastination said:
Maybe you could tier hax based on how hard it is to counter.
Click to expand...
Hax counters can be tricky.

It can be done by dodging the media that trigger such hax, by simply having a type that is resistant or straight immune to it, or... by having your own hax of similar type then it would be a hax struggle (Yoda vs Palpatine intensifies).

Well most can can think of Nightwing's ultrasonic wing dings (Sound Manipulation gadget) being a counter to Daredevil's Enhanced Senses (which is by itself a good counter against some forms of Invisibility and Camouflage), but basically hax and hax counters are so tricky that scaling by easiness of countering can be difficulty. Which is why we have a weakness column for the character profile.
 
You could say that if you start the battle without evil containment wave's equipment, it's in the gimmick tier. But if you have the items for it, it jumps up to probably whatever tier aura is in or something near it... Gimmick tier is essentially "conditional tier" as well, because if you're already doing it, it's better.

I'm less sure on how to tier hax counters specifically, it sounds a little too specific coupled with being potentially too numerous. Hax methods/applications are numerous but they're a lot more concrete and observable.

Besides, the S tier for it might be too common. Basically just "If it hits you, it works regardless of what you're doing. Unless you outright resist it, immune to it or you have a direct counter hax." as opposed to hax that anyone can counter by screaming.

Methods already imply reduced/increased counters to them anyway.
 
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