Why is current Garp not 6-B?

[-BANLK-]

There is only one instance where he complained about his old age, it was supposed to be a gag and even if taken seriously he would still scale to old Whitebeard. Why is a old half dead Whitebeard 6B and the hero of marines, the navy equivalent of Roger only high 7A? Does he age differently? Not to mention he is also healthy, it would also be weird if the Marines did not have even a single 6B soldier in their midst, to combat the emperors.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that BANLK makes sense. Garp's statistics should probably be adjusted.

 

[Damage3245]

Here is the revision thread created by Calaca where he proposed downgrading Sengoku and Garp and it was accepted by a few people, including yourself Antvasima.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. In retrospect it may have been a bad call, but it depends on what other members knowledgeable about One Piece think.

 

[Purgy]

Completely disagree with Garp being 6-B out of his Prime. Zero feats putting him there and the logic of "Garp should scale to Old Whitebeard because they were roughly equal in the past", doesn't really work since we don't how their lives differed past their Primes, and it also goes against Garp himself admitting he's lost "so much" power over the years, you're arguing Prime Garp and old Garp are the same in terms of AP which contradicts that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[-BANLK-]

If feats determine everything then why the hell do we use scaling, let everyone be tiered according to their feats. Also it is very dumb that the present marines don't have a single 6B character when having 4 6Bs as enemies. @Purgy You refused to scale Garp's stamina from Buggy's underlings, I cannot take your opinion seriously. One Piece is lore based, there aren't many fights to gather feats, it's common sense that Garp should be 6B.

 

[-BANLK-]

Here is the revision thread created by Calaca where he proposed downgrading Sengoku and Garp and it was accepted by a few people, including yourself Antvasima.

That thread was closed prematurely.

 

[Damage3245]

@-BANLK-; well, I do think the current 4 6-B's should be revised to a lower rating which would clear up any scaling issues.

 

[Purgy]

If feats determine everything then why the hell do we use scaling, let everyone be tiered according to their feats.

We use scaling, mostly for characters that have actually fought each other, but there are exceptions based on other evidence, I don't think your argument of Prime Garp being one of the strongest characters in One Piece so he should be when he's almost 80 years old is enough evidence honestly. Your basis for scaling Old Garp to Old Whitebeard is because Prime Garp scales to Prime Whitebeard, that doesn't work I'm afraid since as I said, we don't know how their lives differed past their Primes.

Also it is very dumb that the present marines don't have a single 6B character when having 4 6Bs as enemies.

This doesn't mean Garp is 6-B.

You refused to scale Garp's stamina from Buggy's underlings, I cannot take your opinion seriously.

Okay? I don't really care if you take me seriously, I can't convince everyone. If you had actually read that thread you'd see the arguments I used to justify Garp not being able to fight for days on end, namely he's super old, 78 as of current, and we know age can greatly effect Stamina given how Rayleigh was out of breath against Kizaru even though their fight lasted a couple minutes at most. But it also depends on their opponents strength, e.g Rayleigh can swim across an ocean whilst simultaneously killing multiple Seakings without breaking a sweat because it's not physically demanding of him, but fighting somebody who's equal or superior is where he starts to tire because he has to exert effort, it should be the same for Garp.

One Piece is lore based, there aren't many fights to gather feats, it's common sense that Garp should be 6B.

Common sense to you maybe, multiple people disagree which is evident from the original thread downgrading him. Your only argument for Garp is backscaling him from his Prime self which I don't think I need to explain why that's faulty.

 

[Purgy]

I actually agree with Damage on that. I've always thought everybody scaling from Whitebeard's strongest attack was a bit weird, it kinda mitigates his DF being this mega destructive thing.

 

[-BANLK-]

@-BANLK-; well, I do think the current 4 6-B's should be revised to a lower rating which would clear up any scaling issues.

If they are being downgraded then it is fine, there shouldn't be a big tier difference between the admirals and yonkos, otherwise all the "balance of the world" is pretty moot.

 

[Antvasima]

I definitely don't think that they should be downgraded. The Whitebeard and following Blackbeard feats at Marineford were very explicit. If anything, the admirals should be upgraded to something in-between Pica's stone golem and Whitebeard, with Garp and Sengoku roughly comparable to the Yonkou.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; a feat can be explicit without needing to scale lots of people in the verse to it.

A lot of faith is put into Whitebeard's tsunami feat (Blackbeard's feat hasn't been calced as far as I'm aware) but Whitebeard also demonstrates several attacks which are noticeably weaker than what is calced for the tsunami. Which suggests that not only is it an extremely unusual level of power for the verse, but also an unusual amount of power for Whitebeard himself.

Until we get more evidence of the Top Tiers having Island level or Country level feats, it would make more sense to treat this one feat of Whitebeard's as an outlier for the time being.

A verse's ratings being lower than what we would like isn't a bad thing.

 

[CinCameron20]

Personally, I do believe the entire verse (notably from Marineford onwards) should be brought under discussion once again due to many descriptions not making sense due to several large revisions occurring, yet not a single one of the summaries were changes despite the reasoning for each profile no longer being valid. Like I brought up previously, the Admirals have the biggest issue here

• Taken from Borsalino's profile: "At least Large Mountain Level+ (Stopped one of Whitebeard's quakes alongside his Admiral peers. Strong enough to defeat Whitebeard's Commanders without much of a problem. Contributed to some of the damage dealt to Whitebeard during the war and should be on par with other Admirals)"
  • Note how there's only one mention to any other High 7-A character, yet he's scaling from dealing damage to Whitebeard and stopping one of his quakes... who is a 6-B character. The damage can be explained if DURA NEGATION were placed on his profile, but this is nonsense. No one thought to change this during the downgrade? And don't get me started on the lack of description changes regarding his speed. The link takes it to Rayleigh's profile, but Rayleigh's speed states he is "comparable to Kizaru"... CIRCLE SCALING???

In regards to Garp, I do believe he had gotten weaker over the years, but people forget there are quite a number of inconsistencies anyways. He was injured by a punch from Pre time-skip Luffy who is inconsistent during Marineford anyways but do we upgrade Luffy to 7-A tier because of this? No.

I think obscure characters like Garp should be left alone in regards to revisions due to lack of feats and we never actually see him fight anyone. If anything, Garp during Marineford should be left as "Unknown" because there's not enough evidence to even support him being High 7-A, let alone 6-B.

 

[Damage3245]

I thought Durability Negation was already on Kizaru's profile at some point? Or was that removed?

You're correct that there's currently some circular scaling on Kizaru's profile.

 

[Purgy]

The biggest issue I have is basically what Damage said, Whitebeards Quakes aren't consistently the same power, the Tsunami feat is far beyond any of his other Quakes. There's also the matter of Whitebeard's Quake being the strongest feat in the verse with none other coming even remotely close, and yet we scale all the God Tiers to it, it just doesn't really make sense to me and there isn't enough justification. If the Yonko had even a single feat around that tier then I'd be fine with it, but given that Whitebeard's DF is the strongest Paramecia and it's entire nature is about causing massive destruction, I don't think the Yonko's should scale to it's full AP until they've demonstrated they do with feats honestly.

So with all that said, I agree with Damage's suggestion on downgrading them until a feat even remotely similar to Whitebeards is demonstrated, it makes the scaling convoluted the way it currently is.

Should probably wait for others to comment though.

 

[-BANLK-]

Imo admirals should be on the same tier as yonkos, it would be illogical if any admiral does not have enough raw power to inflict damage on emperors, marineford Garp and Sengoku should be "Unknown".

 

[-BANLK-]

Yonko>Admirals but they are on the same tier.

 

[Purgy]

Why would Kizaru have Durability Negation btw?

 

[CinCameron20]

I will say that we can't automatically suggest a character is using weaker attacks as that may become a topic of discussion for each and every shounen character (granted, Whitebeard was wounded before he ever started fighting, but besides the point)

A character may display a 6-B feat, then proceed to fight a character, only displaying feats that'd be calculated at tier 7 or even 8, yet we'd still consider them to have 6-B AP and their opponent is 6-B in durability (unless a special case is displayed--which there KIND OF is for the Admirals due to intangibility).

I do not believe the Admirals should be 6-B (in fact, I'm 100% against this), but I do believe they should be higher than High 7-A considering how both Kizaru and Akainu each got the better of Whitebeard at some points of their fight.

Might I suggest the following (Regarding AP):

(This is nothing new and generally accepted) ALL Commanders are believed to be scaled from eachother. I bought into this idea as well, but now view that as pretty hypocritical and we have no real reason to scale them to eachother. Instead, they should scale from their showings against each of the Admirals.

All Admirals should obviously have Dura Negation on their profile due to the nature of their attacks. Aokiji via freezing, Akainu via heat, Kizaru via heat

Aokiji should be the anchor for this chain. He should get his High 7-A scaling from being at least comparable if not stronger than Doflamingo due to the context of their confrontation on Punk Hazard (for the record, we can't use bias. There's no confirmation Aokiji is > Doflamingo despite the vast majority including myself to believe this to be factual).

• IDK where the whole Doflamingo downgrade discussion is at, but it should be clear that I disagree with it

Akainu scales from Aokiji for defeating him.

Marco scales comparable (Likely) to both of them for fending off Akainu multiple times, and kicking Aokiji away from Luffy.

Kizaru scales from Marco for taking hits from him, and contending with him in a fight.

Jozu scales from hurting Aokiji and battling him for a brief period off-panel.

Vista scales from being a threat to Akainu.

Here, we have a very clear and concise scaling chain using Aokiji as a base (technically Doflamingo/G4 Luffy, but ignore that)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that CinCameron and BANLK largely make sense. The Admirals should be somewhat comparable to, but less powerful than, the Yonkou.

Also, Blackbeard's feat was visibly of at least the same scale as Whitebeard's, and was calculated as such for the anime; and focused attack potency without surrounding comparable environmental destruction is a fundamental feature of both this wiki and fiction as a whole, as the storytelling usually wouldn't work otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Btw: If it is necessary for a revision, I can give temporary editing rights to CinCameron20.

 

[Damage3245]

I should note that in the proposed revisions for One Piece (which is on hold due to the forum migration), Doflamingo is not scaling to High 7-A.

@Antvasima; Blackbeard's feat was not the same as Whitebeard's feat. You're thinking of two different feats. And we treat the anime is non-canon for One Piece out of necessity.

And arguing against Whitebeard's attacks causing environmental destruction is a bit confusing since Whitebeard's whole basis for his AP is environmental destruction, and his attacks notably cause environmental destruction (just not to a very powerful degree).

If you're agreeing with Cin then you're agreeing with downgrades, from the looks of his last post.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - it should come as no surprise that I disagree with the Doflamingo downgrade due to the context, but I will not shift the tiers because of my belief (I mean, I'll argue it again for the 20th time in another thread since this is an important topic due to like 8+ characters being affected by this). Doflamingo should not be downgraded just because the vast majority of his battle with Luffy was thrown off-panel... We literally only see 2 pages of it after Chapter 784 because of a time-skip and Riku's speech overshadowing it.

If it is accepted (Which I hope it isn't), I'll downgrade his tier myself, but this will absolutely affect the Admirals and WB Commanders (AND EVERYONE around them) because Doflamingo is literally their only scale-able option.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that just because a character causes high levels of environmental destruction in one instance, this does not mean that they will usually do so even with full power strikes. This is how these types of stories almost always work, or there would quickly be nothing left of the settings in question.

 

[Purgy]

Can somebody link me that revision thread please? I'd like to read it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima; I think some of verses treat that kind of thing more consistently than others. Toriko for example almost always shows massive planetary affects whenever characters launch massive attacks. In Dragon Ball characters are noted multiple times to be holding themselves back from destroying the planet.

Whitebeard consistently causes destruction whenever he uses his Devil Fruit; but he fails to completely destroy Marineford after multiple attacks. Either he's holding back, or his attacks aren't that strong.

But putting that aside; focusing on consistency of portrayal is important. Whitebeard has a single Country level feat; multiple characters that could hypothetical scale to him have far more lower-rated feats than that. Why is the single largest feat the only one worth using for scaling? Just because it is biggest, and bigger = better?

 

[Damage3245]

Can somebody link me that revision thread please? I'd like to read it.

Here is the revision thread for it.

 

[Purgy]

Can somebody link me that revision thread please? I'd like to read it.

Here is the revision thread for it.

Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Because it is an explicit feat that is important for the story progression that displays his full power in a series wherein the full power feats for god-tier characters are extremely rare, and because Blackbeard has a feat of a similar scale right afterwards.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have some other tasks to do now, so this will have to wait for a while.

 

[-BANLK-]

Whitebeard consistently causes destruction whenever he uses his Devil Fruit; but he fails to completely destroy Marineford after multiple attacks. Either he's holding back, or his attacks aren't that strong.

I don't really remember but can't Whitebeard concentrate his quake powers? He is bound to be holding back since destroying marineford would kill Ace and his allies, this might explain why marineford endured his attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think that he held back against such dangerous enemies, just that he focused his attack power, as this is usually what happens in fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, this is just a notification about that all discussion posts made after April 14 will disappear in the new forum, so if there are any important content revisions that need to be referenced in the new forum, please back them up here:

https://archive.org/web/

The threads can be updated with later backups if there are more posts in them.