• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nothing states that they're in different dimension. If I attack you now and hit your past self, that would qualify for immeasurable speed

And that literally what Solaris does
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Before this thread inevitably gets "too" heated, try to be as objective as possible and keep your bias for/against the Sonic franchise and it's fandom in check please.

This isn't targeted at anyone directly but we all know how "colourful" Sonic CRTs can get.

Whelp I'm going take shelter and watch this thread unfold.
Click to expand...
Oh I can biased, Classic Sonic >>>> Any other Sonic.
 
I'm happy to see 2 downgrade threads in the same day over stats that I deem wrong but I'm worried about how their authors portray them as risky in the way they do, they're not wrong.

I agree that Immessurable speed is easily not the take to make out of this but can't tell precisely what was going on; what exact powers were happening for the characters and environment. Someone should compile all the statements in the game and guide(s?), it will be easier to evaluate what was really going on based on seeing all that at once.
 
Theuser789 said:
Before the FRA train of any side come in I want to say that this thread should be focused how the new standards affect the tiering, and what should be changed, it shouldn't be about "outliers" or "there is no feat" because this already accepted in the original thread by various staff members knowelegeble on the series, and it's honestly derrailing from the main point
Click to expand...
there is no feat. That's the issue. Fighting Solaris in different time points isn't immeasurable. Solaris existing across time has no bearing on his attack speed or reaction spee
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
And? Being MFTL+ won't help you in a place where time constantly changes from past to future randomly
Click to expand...
Pretty sure that's pretty much the same practice for why Timeless voids aren't infinite; a realm where past, present, and future are all over the place and shifting constantly would also discredit any potential Immeasurable feats.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Being launched from the Future and then reaching the past is just dimensional travel range, not speed proof. And others brought them up on previous threads.
Click to expand...
That's again not the argument, the point was never about an attack being launched or being time travelled, the point was that Solaris attacks in all time periods, the same attack will be in the past, but also in the future, they do not travel in time, because they are already there, they don't folow linear time, and the hedgehogs dodge those, react to it

I agree Solaris should be downgraded, but as Sera said in the original thread (correct me if I am wrong), the hedgehogs need immesurable speed to react to a being like Solaris, and that hasn't changed

DDM, the tutorials aren't canon, don't use them as a debunk, the hedgehogs never react to what's the characters are saying, in fact, using your example, the hedgehogs will repeat that tutorial to each other even though Amy for example already said so
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, Matt is right that Time being messed up. If someone is causing Past, Present, and Future to be merged into time periods, then that only makes Immeasurable speed even more dubious. Not to mention the "Weak point" was even stated in lore about needing to be struck "Across all three time periods".
Click to expand...
But he isn't doing that, he isn't merging time, he is destroying it, and that caused a rift outside of where he was, a TEMPORARY rift at that, it isn't related at all to the feat
Matthew_Schroeder said:
there is no feat. That's the issue. Fighting Solaris in different time points isn't immeasurable. Solaris existing across time has no bearing on his attack speed or reaction spee
Click to expand...
But that isn't the arguments, noone used those to segue he is immesurable, stop acting that just because you don't believe in something, that it must not exist
 
Eficiente said:
Someone should compile all the statements in the game and guide(s?), it will be easier to evaluate what was really going on based on seeing all that at once.
Click to expand...
I will do that tommorow, I will go over every scan, video, dialogue in a big post showing all the arguments pro immesurable speed

Hopefully the thread can be organized before then
 
@Zamasu_Chan I didn't mean to come off as putting words in your mouth, but I recall in a post you made above you quoted something on the speed page. But I'll bring that up in the other thread.

@Theuser789 That actually goes back to what I was saying about attacks having Temporal AoE. It is possible for a projectile to be omnipresent across time, but not across space, but said attack still has finite speed when traveling the spatial distance.

Sera may come here to refute if she wishes, but I last recall she doesn't want to get involved in another Sonic thread ever again basically. But Antoniofer is probably better at explaining the Omnipresence Vs Immeasurable speed than I am. Though, she also later though traveling to other universes via sheer movement was Immeasurable on another thread when Dargoo later pointed out that's just "Dimensional Travel". She is very knowledgeable, but I recall she tends to be a bit too lax when it comes to applying Immeasurable speed sometimes.

I still find it weird that some non Immeasurable speed characters' voices are able to reach the players faster than the meteor that's allegedly Immeasurable travels from point A to point B. And that's more like a side note, the points were more above and below this one.

Destroying time is yet another argument; it's slowly but surely turning into a timeless void. Which I don't need to repeat that again.

But I can also tag others generally more neutral; @AKM sama @Elizhaa @Agnaa @DontTalkDT @Wokistan
 
Also, if the staff members that agreed with immesurable could comment on this new thread, that would be greatly appreciated to see the different oppinions
 
Theuser789 said:
But that isn't the arguments, noone used those to segue he is immesurable, stop acting that just because you don't believe in something, that it must not exist
Click to expand...
I am explaining how fighting Solaris doesn't equate to immeasurable, regardless if he "transcends time" or they fought in a "timeless void" or "across time", Solaris' existence and his capacity to attack are unrelated.
 
The problem with the AoE argument is that we, or at least mine, that I am arguing that the attack is hitting the character no matter where they come from, immesurable as stated in the thread is like Chuck Norris hitting his yesterday self, this is what the attacks do, they come from the present to hit the past, they don't follow the linear time, the "travel speed" argument is not a bad one tbh, it can work, but not in the context of what I am arguing, but I wouldn't mind outside oppinions about this, I don't mind Solaris being downgraded, powerscaling doesn't interest me as much anymore, I just want it for be for understandble reasons rather than what of bias, or taking advantages of circunstances

The player isn't canon, they are talking between each other, which I don't see any problem with

The arguments isn't about timeless void, that was just against the merged argument
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I am explaining how fighting Solaris doesn't equate to immeasurable, regardless if he "transcends time" or they fought in a "timeless void" or "across time", Solaris' existence and his capacity to attack are unrelated.
Click to expand...
And what you are explaining is not relevant to any of the arguments between the pro and con side, since noone is using that
 
Last time, I think Sera, DragonMasterxyz, and maybe Dark649 were the only ones who agreed with Immeasurable, but DragonMaster only did so mostly because "I trust Sera". That doesn't discredit him, but at the same time it's not the most elaborate response, but he's also taking a break from the wiki last I heard. Dark649 has also been inactive for over a year.

Also, The Real Cal Howard was the one who brought up the Chuck Norris example, but that was dismissed as simply being FTL and not Immeasurable.
 
Oh? My mistake then

Anyways I will only reply tommorow now (in order to have a good might sleep, you can't let an internet forum get away from your life lol) in order to make the post explaining the pro immesurable side
 
If what User said was true (that Sera said the Super Trio would need to be Immeasurable to react to the being that Solaris is), then what if we ask her for input? She said that she was staying away from Sonic CRTs, but maybe it would be a good idea to at least ask her what she meant by that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Pretty sure that's pretty much the same practice for why Timeless voids aren't infinite; a realm where past, present, and future are all over the place and shifting constantly would also discredit any potential Immeasurable feats.
Click to expand...
You still didn't answered my other question. If I go and attack you now, and the attack would hit your past self, how would that not count as immeasurable?

This seems to be like the clearest immeasurable feat out there
 
Actually, Wally West "Moving so fast he outpaced Instant Transmission thus literally moving faster than instantly" is a better example, but off topic. Also, time is shattered as mentioned by multiple posts above, meaning a lot of characters move all across time on a regular basis. That's just Space-Time being unstable and not so much characters moving at Immeasurable speeds.

Anyway, some characters can teleport the projectiles to other dimensions or other time periods, but that doesn't always make said characters Immeasurable.

Anyway, I just rewatched this fight scene and actually found some details. And actually, during both phases, the side characters do comment on the entire battle. While we can probably say characters going "Press the Y button" and all that seems irrelevant. But it was during the first phase Omega actually lectures Shadow to use the spear of light ability. Also, there was some lore statements from Elise, Amy, and Eggman about his core being his weak spot because "That's where his conscious is stored." And they've been warning Sonic to "Watch out for the blue lights" meaning they're literally perceiving the entire battle.

If the cast was truly infinite let alone immeasurable, all non-infinite speed characters should be completely 100% frozen during the entire fight. Not having a frozen background doesn't really debunk Massively FTL+ characters fighting; because there's should logically still be some motion, just really slow motion but still motion due to being finite speed. But infinite and Immeasurable speeds are standards we have to be extra strict with when it comes to environmental backgrounds and weaker characters perceiving the fights. Not to mention, even during the 2nd phase, we hear Rouge going "You can do it Shadow!" or Eggman going "I'm counting on you Shadow!"

Also, I was watching the fight scene, and the way the meteors work is actually kind of off. Let's say someone was just playing as Sonic and not switching out anyone else yet, the meteors are attacking normally, but when you switch out, all the meteors and what not are in the same respective locations for each period. So it doesn't look much like the meteors actively travel to different time periods, more like that the three fight scenes seem to be happening the same time and Solaris is using the exact same attack patterns across all three periods. For each character you're not controlling, it's commonly assumed the other two are not attacking and probably collecting ring based on the conversations between Sonic, Shadow, and Silver.

But bottomline, I still don't see any Immeasurable speed feats and see more things to argue against Immeasurable speed than for it, but I'm willing to be open to wait for the pro side to gather the list of other statements.
 

Context​

I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here

Misconceptions​

First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional

First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change

First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both

And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier

The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering



Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points

First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long

Arguments​

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself

Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Let's say someone was just playing as Sonic and not switching out anyone else yet, the meteors are attacking normally, but when you switch out, all the meteors and what not are in the same respective locations for each period. So it doesn't look much like the meteors actively travel to different time periods, more like that the three fight scenes seem to be happening the same time and Solaris is using the exact same attack patterns across all three periods. For each character you're not controlling, it's commonly assumed the other two are not attacking and probably collecting ring based on the conversations between Sonic, Shadow, and Silver.
Click to expand...
This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong

Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.

Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.

Conclusion​


The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.
 
Last edited:
I agree that Solaris shall have his Immeasurable Speed and I agree the hedgehogs did do that feat, but I think we shall remove the Immeasurable Speed Tier for the Trio and here is why

1. Its an outliner, the other bosses such as Time Eater only hits Universal+ with Massive FTL+ Speed and the Egg Salamander reaches Massive FTL+ as well which Solaris is the only one with has Immeasurable Speed

2. Super Sonic has shown Large Planet Feats after 2006 Game and he can even got drained even with his Super Form of the Chaos Emeralds and it has been shown to drain planets with ease in Unleashed and if the 2006 game was not an outliner, Sonic could have tanked that 5-A Drain.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Eseseso
Sonic General CRT
2
Replies
52
Views
3K
GlaceonGamez471
GlaceonGamez471
ShakeResounding
Even Further Beyond: The Hypertime of Sonic the Hedgehog
4 5 6
Replies
211
Views
16K
Eseseso
Eseseso
CloverDragon03
  • Locked
Sonic the Hedgehog CRT: Super Form Speed with a Side of Perfect Dark Gaia
2
Replies
59
Views
3K
CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
  • Locked
Finite Speed? That's Small Time! (Modern Base Sonic Speed CRT)
4 5 6
Replies
217
Views
12K
AdamVhenJP
AdamVhenJP
ShakeResounding
  • Locked
Tyranny Across Time: Solaris [Vol. 2, Pt. 1 - Sonic Revision Series]
3 4 5
Replies
172
Views
9K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top