"Realms with starry skies" feats

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes agreed. I still stand by my guideline and also by my opinion that like 90% of all verses that use them would get removed.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

There's absolutely no reason to assume lights on a space are stars by default. Burden of proof asks for evidence to the positive claim, which is that they are stars, since they being stars would effectively be saying that the dimension is big enough to house celestial bodies within it. Unless there's evidence that this character can create a pocket dimension of such a size, we shouldn't assume they can by default, so I'm sticking with Matthew.

What about this case?

1. It was stated to be a pocket dimension

2. there are celestial bodies on the sky AKA Planets

3. The events are similar to the anime, where was stated those celestial bodies are stars

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Personally I feel that we shouldn’t assume such realms contain actual stars unless there is sufficient evidence that they are, that seems reasonable to me

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff and experienced members have commented here earlier? If somebody writes a list, I can call them here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I still hold the same stance I had before with what I, andy and ultimata said.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Personally I feel that we shouldn’t assume such realms contain actual stars unless there is sufficient evidence that they are, that seems reasonable to me

But those are stars dude

One of them is close enogh to notice is a star, there are aso planets, and the dimension is called space dimension.

Wanna more proofs?

It is an adapted arc from the anime where those were confirmed stars, even nebulas.

 

[Damage3245]

Personally I feel that we shouldn’t assume such realms contain actual stars unless there is sufficient evidence that they are, that seems reasonable to me

This also sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I mean people here isn't even reading my arguments :V

If this is not a starry sky then..... I'm a Bogaloo (it contains two planets, a single close star and many others in the background)

Here was stated to be a pocket-dimension created by the Alca Noise

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can we not argue specific cases here please? I know examples are to be used but this thread first and foremost is about starry sky feats in general.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

If this is becoming more case by case, why does the general calc even exist?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still in agreement with Kukui, Andy, and Ultima.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm still in agreement with Kukui, Andy, and Ultima.

Can you remind me of their conclusions please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If you're taken to a dimension where a starry sky exists, it is logical to consider the stars actual stars. That's pretty much common sense as far as "Bodies of space" are concerned. Since assuming those aren't stars would also have to come back and there would be other things that would require evidence. Saying "It's only a planet or town sized dimension combined with illusion creation" actually requires more assumptions than saying it's a dimension large enough to contain starry skies.

We don't have problems with point 1 or 3, it's point 2 is what a lot of people have problems with Matt's interpretations.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Precisely.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus seems to make sense to me.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

If you're taken to a dimension where a starry sky exists, it is logical to consider the stars actual stars. That's pretty much common sense as far as "Bodies of space" are concerned. Since assuming those aren't stars would also have to come back and there would be other things that would require evidence. Saying "It's only a planet or town sized dimension combined with illusion creation" actually requires more assumptions than saying it's a dimension large enough to contain starry skies.

We don't have problems with point 1 or 3, it's point 2 is what a lot of people have problems with Matt's interpretations.

This seems fine to me as well, as that sort of an example falls within "Sufficient Evidence" to me

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I said this before, but id like to point it out again as I think it should also be somewhat discussed.

We're all pretty much on agreement that pocket dimension feats explicitly need to be proven to scale to AP regularly in order for it to count. So how would we judge the feats that a character does through some kind of technique? Like if a character uses an energy beam that creates a starry dimension during the attack phase, but its only created during the techniques actual usage. Or if a character has a power that allows them to create/manipulate/destroy starry dimensions.

Would we scale it to regular AP? Or would we specify that only the specific power or technique is that strong and seperate them from their regular stats?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I said this before, but id like to point up again as I think it should also be somewhat discussed.

We're all pretty much on agreement that pocket dimension feats explicitly need to be proven to scale to AP regularly in order for it to count. So how would we judge the feats that a character does through some kind of technique? Like if a character uses an energy beam that creates a starry dimension during the attack phase, but its only created during the techniques actual usage. Or if a character has a power that allows them to create/manipulate/destroy starry dimensions.

Would we scale it to regular AP? Or would we specify that only the specific power or technique is that strong and seperate them from their regular stats?

Well if someone survives said technique, then it scales to their durability and if the first character can damage the one who survived said technique with regular attacks, then their regular attacks would scale to the technique

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh well yeah, that exception is fine. My question was moreso asking what we'd do without that solution.

 

[Ionliosite]

What about this case?

Not really relevant to the thread, so idk why you're quoting me of all people to answer it.

And I remain by Matt's side, since as Mitch said, we shouldn’t assume such realms contain actual stars unless there is sufficient evidence that they are.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We don't have problems with point 1 or 3, it's point 2 is what a lot of people have problems with Matt's interpretations.

Point 2 is for stuff that's like, there's no evidence that anything is even being created. Like a vague wavy background change being interpreted as dimensional creation is my problem.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's already pretty much covered in point 1.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Idk this seems like smth u can scrutinize into a non feat if u want.

The moment u start asking if the stars r plasma or just lights way up high in sky made to look like stars then we can also start asking if the trees r actually made of wood or some other material made to look like wood. After which we can also question if those same trees, that may or may not be made of wood, r solid or hollow.

Imo either everythings an Illusion or everything is real. Obviously treat the former as true as a basis. If they happen to make it clear they created it then assume the ladder. Ofc there is a third route, a mix of both. Like maybe, the town is real but the sky is fake. Tho, idoubt most cases go into such detail so just split the difference and put "At least (lowest possible interpretation), possibly (highest possible interpretation)".

 

[RadicalMrR]

The assumption that they didnt make the dimension also works too as a basis.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @Sera_EX

Would you be willing to help us reach some form of conclusion here please?

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I still stand by what I said earlier. Plus, I'd also like to add that we also need to a reason to believe that the dimension was actually created by the character and it's not just a case of the character simply teleporting everybody in another dimension.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would you or some other knowledgeable member be willing to write down an outline for what we need to do here please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think we already agreed the creating the dimension needs proof as opposed to simply teleporting or character having "Power of illusion". But once it's already stated to be a "Pocket reality creation" the logical assumption is that the starry sky background are stars. If there's no "Creation statement" but a simple hand wave and a starry sky appears; I agree with that being just an illusion. But "Entire bodies of space" or "Worldwide dimensions" clearly have celestial bodies within them.

Just a recap, Point 1 is good, Point 2 just feels like a redundant much redundant of Point 1, but everyone also agrees with Point 3.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so point 1 and 3 are likely fine to apply then?

If so, we should probably create a new page that explains our new standards, and move the pocket reality manipulation page extra explanation text to there as well:

Pocket Reality Manipulation

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

I would greatly appreciate help with this from other staff members.

Would you be willing to write a draft page @DontTalkDT?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I know I am late, but the idea that you need to prove that stars are actual stars and not just lights is comical.

Occam's Razor isn't always right, and can in fact be comically wrong, as seen by the fact that people did believe that stars were lights in the sky at one point in time. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the world accepts that stars are physical objects as an objective fact, so there's absolutely no reason to automatically assume that all stars in the night sky are just lights unless we have reason to believe that the author wants you to think otherwise.

Simply put, that point is an absolute abuse of Occam's Razor to assume something so divergent from actual reality that it requires special proof to be the case, not the other way around where you need physical evidence that it's actually physical objects. Certainly, there are cases where it can be reasonably assumed to be an illusion or simple decoration, but to say that those are common enough to warrant every single instance of this feat being called into doubt like that is a joke.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so point 1 and 3 are likely fine to apply then?

If so, we should probably create a new page that explains our new standards, and move the pocket reality manipulation page extra explanation text to there as well:

Pocket Reality Manipulation

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Would you be willing to write a draft page @DontTalkDT? Or is some other knowledgeable staff member willing to do so? I would appreciate the help.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @ProfessorKukui4Life @Ionliosite @Antoniofer @DemonGodMitchAubin @Damage3245 @KLOL506 @DontTalkDT @Sera_EX @Ultima_Reality @Andytrenom

I would greatly appreciate your help with finishing this project.

 

[KLOL506]

Me personally I'm on board with DDM regarding his points, but that's all I can say at this time.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Same for me as well, I still hold the same stance I did last time.

Points 1 and 3 for the new standards are perfectly fine to add no problem. But as DDM explained again, I’m vehemently opposed to Point 2, as it’s just a repeat of point 1 and is baseless.

If a character is proven to create a real dimension, then the stars inside said dimension should be taken as real stars until something says otherwise on that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need to apply these conclusions in practice, as I mentioned above.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I still hold my stance as well, starry sky feats can be used if there is evidence that they are truly creating stars and used the universal energy system to make them

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I need to go to work right now, but the last I heard was DT's proposal for making the creation feats page on that other "Creation Feats" thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Sorry. We seem to have two similar revisions threads running right now. Perhaps somebody could link to this thread within the other, newer one to incorporate potential missing information?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was this thread, and specifically this post.