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Sheesh.
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Buddy if immeasurable speed is not ENOUGH to deal to temporal omni......than how the hell is finite or infinite speed going do any better....it would be even worse for them....@Greenshifter It won't be "might" it would be, "Immeasurable speed will never dodge a attack from an time and space omnipresent character" since where and when ever they go, the attack would still hit them. Think about it like this, you have immeasurable speed and just got hit from a omnipresent character, so you decided to go to the past but oops you got hit since the attack hits you in the past too, so you go to the future instead and oops it hits you in the future too, so what do you do? Nothing, since your past and future will get hit and there would be no safe location for you, even in the present you're getting hit from the attack. You're getting hit, got hit, and will get hit by the attack, nothing can escape from an omnipresent attack.
Now let's talk about a attack from a omnipresent character that is only omnipresent through space, you can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so immeasurable speed beats only space omnipresent character.
But the hard part comes when it's about a time only omnipresent character vs immeasurable speed character. Think of time line a horizontal line on a graph, now try to imagine that every point in that line is getting attacked by a time only omnipresent character, you would see that no point in that line is safe. You might say that the immeasurable character can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so now think of a new line being created from a point in the original line and curve it backwards to a point in the past, though there's still the problem that the omnipresent attack would still hit the character on the new line because the time only omnipresent attack would hit you through all of the past, present, and future. The immeasurable character while creating the new line would be going through the present and future(they're going through the future by going to create the new line and will be in the present when they're creating the new line, while going to go through the future while being in the present, not mentioning that their past is being attacked too), and so all point in that new line would be hit by the omnipresent character. You get hit in the past, present, and future so there's no avoiding the attack. You can create another line from that line or any other point but it won't do any good because all those lines are getting hit.
I personally disagree with the immeasurable speed because there would be no way for a immeasurable character to avoid an attack from a time only/space and time omnipresent character. They might avoid a space only omnipresent character but not a time only omnipresent character. Thought what would they get if not immeasurable speed?
You lack forbidden knowledge then......It is impossible because any point of time he goes to he is being hit in the past present and future, any point that is in the timeline would be hit, if you say "where the attack hasn't hit yet" then it seems like you need to look at the definition of omnipresent because there is no safe spot as the attack has hit
IF there is somehow a place that isn't already hit. being hit, and going to be hit then the attack isn't omnipresent. Unless you can show something that will change my opinion, I really don't think there would be a place that isn't hit.You lack forbidden knowledge then......
Unless you can show something that will change my opinion,
These points have been brought up indirectly and directly......regardless we have discussed over this extensively amongst ourselves......and we have the explanations for it......but the ball is in Anti immeasurable sides court to catalogue and post thier arguements.....the burden of proof is on them....untill then we won't reveal our cards....and Sonic will continue to enjoy immeasurable speed on his profile in the meantime.IF there is somehow a place that isn't already hit. being hit, and going to be hit then the attack isn't omnipresent. Unless you can show something that will change my opinion, I really don't think there would be a place that isn't hit.
I'm not arguing Immeasurable as an outlier.I'm sorry if I'm missing some context, but, even if they should be getting no matter what, we know they can avoid Solaris' attacks with, I don't want to say without effort, but with ease. We have to find out why that is, though, I assume.
I don't personally see this feat as any sort of outlier. Yes, assuming immeasurable for Super is solid, then it is well above what's been established for the forms as of now. But, I don't think that's an issue at all. After all, if big gaps means a feat is an outlier, then how are you to upgrade characters in the first place? Unless the feat is immensely vague, or contradictory, I don't feel it can be marked as an outlier.
Why doesn’t the downgrade side just make a “final argument” bit? Summarise your whole point of why it’s specifically not immeasurable speed, and if it makes enough sense, it should get agreed on.
Because seriously, this thread’s been a shitshow. It’s been a bunch of back and forths that hasn’t overall really proved anything to anyone.
This doesn't debunk immesurable per say, only that not even immesurable is enough, that's your only reason that you honestly refuse to even accept any counters to this"Now, it is then said that to avoid temporal omnipresence, immeasurable does not help due to how immeasurable speed can't be used to move one's past self (also future self) who would still be in the way of the attack if it was dodged.
Immeasurable speed does however, allow you to project your present self into the past and move there. If it also allows you to update your present and avoid things from happening in it like you said, doesn't that also support my point? Since that present would eventually become the past, and the new present would get replaced by what was formerly known as the future, to dodge an attack after already being struck by it is essentially the same thing as moving your past self out of harm's way. It looks like I had a stroke trying to write that sentence, and it must be hard to wrap your head around it from an outsider's perspective, but basically, I don't see how changing something that happened in your present and something that happened in your past is any different in this case, especially given the context. The past is nothing but a former present, and the future is nothing but a soon-to-be present."The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks.
If the attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time, then if any point in their own time ever overlaps with Solaris' attacks they would get hit. Even with immeasurable speed, you still have a past and a future. And immeasurable speed in of itself does not allow you to control the position of your past self, merely update your present to avoid things that incur upon them.
Immesurable doesn't work because the past self would be hit, people countered that past attacks can be dodged by immesurables, you then argued that this isn't visually show, then I said no video game media visually shows this, so asking for evidence is unreasonable because this type of evidence doesn't exist, it's improvable, therefore immesurable can work because your counter is simply false, you are scaming us by repeating yourself, your logic has been dismantled, those two staments have no more backing, you cannot hide in those false truths anymore"I outlined above why Immeasurable doesn't work to solve the logistical problems of this fight and then asked for evidence to prove immeasurable.
How can he even have a crappy version of temporal omnipresence? This isn't an abillity with varying levels of effectiveness, this is just what Solaris IS. He can't be bad at having a physiology, and members on both sides of the argument have admitted that temporal omnipresence is something that can be countered with certain abillities that don't just involve TAoE. Cal said that immeasurable speed would do the trick, while other anti-immeasurables such as Duedate say that even immeasurable speed is not enough, and that the hedgehogs would need to have thier own omnipresence or type 2 acausality. Both sides agree that omnipresence and type 2 acausality are unreasonable due to their contradictions. Every member of pro-immeasurable agrees that immeasurable speed is the best and only way left to match Solaris the way they do, (and Cal, who is an anti-immeasurable agrees with that idea and only seems to disagree with immeasurable for an unrelated reason that has been debunked)." by peptoIf Solaris has a really crappy, gutted version of Temporal Omnipresence with few benefits, then I guess it would suck to be them, but it would still make more sense than slapping immeasurable speed onto characters who lack the requirements and are stuck in an awkward middle ground as a result.
And my points are my points, I don't need to stop just because it contradicts some other person's opinion. I would like to be able to debate with them, but I don't know how to contact them. Although immeasurable is the best solution, it still wouldn't be able to dodge omnipresent, I can only say that it's the game's fault for such illogical things as this.@DebatingIsMyGoal Your points are the same ad Duedate's. The same ones that contradict DarkDragon. If you read the last two pages, you would realize your points contribute to nothing. We still need to wait for them to agree with each other and compile their arguments. We already have multiple times, but we're ready to do it again if we have to. I'm glad you're still open-minded enough to consider sonething more OP though. If immeasurable doesn't cut it in your opinion, then there's either 2nd degree immeasurable speed or temporal omnipresence to consider for the hedgehogs. We don't agree with either of these atm. Immeasurable is the best solution.
Welp I guess I'll have to wait thenThese points have been brought up indirectly and directly......regardless we have discussed over this extensively amongst ourselves......and we have the explanations for it......but the ball is in Anti immeasurable sides court to catalogue and post thier arguements.....the burden of proof is on them....untill then we won't reveal our cards....and Sonic will continue to enjoy immeasurable speed on his profile in the meantime.
I also made a comparison board many pages ago that compare characters with infinite speed, space omnis, characters with immeasurable speed, and time omnis. It helps illustrate my point better. The reason I haven't made any new argument since is because this one has never been responded to.This is basically the only argument(I have found right now) for immeasurable speed against the statement that immeasurable wouldn't work against omnipresent, just that Sonic is higher into Immeasurable speed, and/or that Sonic has omnipresence like Solaris, and this would be added to the two other characters.
How would it NOT beat omnipresence? If anything, it's overkill, because "regular" Immeasurable speed can already replicate the benefits of temporal area of effect, temporal omnipresence (without the survivabillity perks), and type 2 acausality with speed alone. Even Dudedate said that, along with TAOE, one of these last two options should allow them to dodge Solaris's attacks. Yet, these individual options have been debunked, but immeasurable can grant any and all of them when used properly.So we can all agree that we have no idea how Sonic and the co. had fought against Solaris because immeasurable speed wouldn't be enough, either it was plot stupidity or Sonic should have higher into immeasurable speed which still won't beat omnipresence.
That's fair, but have you seen the reset requirements? You can voice your points once it happens. It's essential for our opposition to have a clear and consistant vision. We can't keep going when the two members most heavily involved in the downgrade agree for completely contradictary reasons.And my points are my points, I don't need to stop just because it contradicts some other person's opinion. I would like to be able to debate with them, but I don't know how to contact them. Although immeasurable is the best solution, it still wouldn't be able to dodge omnipresent, I can only say that it's the game's fault for such illogical things as this
We're all caught up then. Good to knowWelp I guess I'll have to wait then
The magical fuckles happened here?
11 pages
Maybe we need to create a general thread for that?This entire thread just makes me believe more and more that our consensus on how to treat immeasurable speed here is being made to be far more complicated than it actually needs to be.
Let’s just say our standards for immeasurable speed are like a girl trying on new clothes from the mall. They are constantly ever changing in what is acceptable for the rating and what isn’t, making things more complicated and more strict than they actually need to be as obstacles to get the rating.How so?
While I understand the concept behind why its restricted, my problem with this decision in restricting the standards more is because this issue isn't really a standards issue. It's a scaling issue from the particular verse.We actually did have a lengthy discussion about Immeasurable speed. And it got restricted because there are plenty of characters who time travel but lack an actual "Combat speed" feats for Immeasurable, but have been rated as Immeasurable regardless. Which was explained that doing so is the same as giving someone Infinite speed simply because they teleport. But this is off topic.
All this lingo about Immeasurable speed, I don't think a thread has ever given me a headache before until now, and I sat through the Mario upgrade.
Exactly! This is precisely what we've been trying to say for so long!While I understand the concept behind why its restricted, my problem with this decision in restricting the standards more is because this issue isn't really a standards issue. It's a scaling issue from the particular verse.
There's a difference between what actually qualifies as the particular feat in the first place, and how its actually applied to the characters involved with the feat. The latter is where our problem stems from. If a bunch of characters are being inappropriately scaled to immeasurable without having enough sufficient evidence to defend their ratings, such as the lack of combat speeds or if its an outlier, or whatever the circumstances may be, then the solution for this should be to downgrade those characters who don't qualify. Not revise the standards as a whole that can screw over other verses who don't suffer from these inconsistencies.
I know this isn't the thread for this, and I'll drop it from here on, but I just wanted to get this small piece from me out here so people can see.
Where is it? I've been asking you to link that discussion thread since page 5. By now, I just assumed it didn't exist.We actually did have a lengthy discussion about Immeasurable speed.
We've proven time and time again that some degree of immeasurable is the only option left, with arguments that have been ignored time and time again, wether on purpose or not. Even DueDate accidentally disagreed with your points despite being anti-immeasurable. Have you talked to him yet?It doesn't just go related to "Outliers" and "PIS"; but the specific feats need to be Immeasurable to begin with.
Since Pre-Crisis Supes could make up new Super powers on the spot, I guess that's fair? Pretty sure he has other immeasurable scaling, but that's a different discussion.Like Pre-Crisis Superman having Immeasurable flight speed when all he really should have is just Time Travel.
Yep. That's the second step of the reset plan. Did you read the other steps of the process? The first one is by far the most importantAnd honestly, the basic premise of Immeasurable speed isn't that complicated; most agreed the way I wrote sounds on point. The Omnipresent parts are the complicated example, but yes; we should probably make a new thread later and then link it here, then close this after it's made.