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Whole Cake Island Scaling Revision

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Kachon123 said:
Please.
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Yes, he launches his opponent because those attacks carry significantly more force. That's why his attacks have an AP multiplier in the first place; because they get that much more powerful.

It's not just a fact that Luffy always launches his opponents with Gear 4 strikes due to tensile force; look at when he hit Big Mom directly with one and didn't budge her.
 
Damage3245 said:
Yes, he launches his opponent because those attacks carry significantly more force. That's why his attacks have an AP multiplier in the first place; because they get that much more powerful.
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Damage it's the same concept as Gum Gum Balloon. He's using his elasticity and tensile force to bounce and launch the opponent, not striking force.
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
So base luffy punching against awakened katakuri and landing a hit isn't even close to relative?
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Funny you bring that.

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Because even before unlocking FS, Base Luffy was too able to damage Katakuri when his FS was off.

And you telling me that this Base Luffy was already relative to this Base Katakuri? Even when before Base Katakuri could overpower his Gear 3rd with little effort? And FS only affect his rections/speed, physically he shouldn't be weaker.

Also if that's the case then Gear 4th Luffy would have just oneshot Base Katakuri if we go based on this scan?

I think it would be better if we don't determinare the scaling by using just a single panel and instead take the entire fight in consideration.

Especially when this isn't like Dragon Ball, One Piece characters had been harmed by weaker things like bullets or even weaker characters like the Nine Scabbars against Kaido.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
I think it would be better if we don't make scaling chains by using just a single panel and instead take the entire fight in consideration.
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yee you're ignoring hours of base luffy fighting awakened katakuri... Saying he's not relative, how does that make any sense whatsoever

Off guarded attacks has also always done more damage than how strong the attack actually is (shown with Garp vs Morgan and marineford war), katakuri was instantly fine taking that hit
 
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MonkeyOfLife said:
Off guarded attacks has also always done more damage than how strong the attack actually is (shown with Garp vs Morgan and marineford war), katakuri was instantly fine taking that hit
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And he was also instanly fine later when he was hit by FS Base Luffy, unless you can prove that specific hit caused far more damage than the previous one, otherwise they are literally done similar damage to Katakuri.

And before you bring it, Awakening only boost his AP, it doesn't affect his Durability so he didn't get tougher than before.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
And he was also instanly fine later when he was hit by FS Base Luffy, unless you can prove that specific hit caused far more damage than the previous one, otherwise they are literally cause similar damage to Katakuri.
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One is a stretched upper cut kick against off gaurded katakuri, the other is luffy lunching himself from far away, fighting against awakening and landing a normal punch to the face

They aren't the same
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This has always been a thing in op, you already know this I hope
 
KingTempest said:
Someone gimme a TLDR there's too many paragraphs
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To summarize, after rewatching the fight between Luffy and Katakuri, I’ve found reason to believe that our current Whole Cake Island scaling is very inaccurate and based on a flawed interpretation of Katakuri's quote—which is not only unproven but, if anything, creates a serious contradiction.

Specifically, the idea that Luffy supposedly became significantly stronger and faster during their fight to the point where he reached Katakuri's level in his Base. However, this isn't supported by the fight itself. From the beginning to the end, Base Luffy never managed to fight on par with Katakuri. If anything, Katakuri consistently had the upper hand in combat—even when Luffy used Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd.

While unlocking Future Sight did help Luffy perform better—allowing him to dodge some attacks, parry one with Gear 3rd, and even land a hit—he was still getting tossed around, taking more and more damage, and remained largely on the defensive. He could barely keep up, and only with great difficulty. The only moments where Luffy was able to press Katakuri or gain the upper hand were while using Gear 4th.

With Boundman, Luffy was able to briefly overwhelm Katakuri with a barrage of attacks while Katakuri's Future Sight was inactive. However, Katakuri quickly regained his composure and reactivated his Observation Haki, once again outspeeding Luffy. Despite taking multiple hits, Katakuri remained in relatively good condition and proceeded to unleash his Awakening, which allowed him to match Boundman’s offensive power. He even managed to injure Luffy and send him flying—just as Boundman had done to him earlier. And of course, with Snakeman, it was clearly shown that both fighters were finally on equal footing. For the first time, Luffy was truly able to match Katakuri’s speed and strength.

As you can see, the idea that Base Luffy = Katakuri doesn't really match with what has transpired in the original story.

Especially when it doesn't even make sense—if Base Luffy = Katakuri, then how can Katakuri also be equal to Snakeman at the same time? While weaker than Boundman, Snakeman should still increase Luffy's physical strength beyond at least Gear 2nd, if not Gear 3rd as well. And of course, in terms of speed, it's above all other forms. Realistically, at that point, Luffy wouldn't even need to use any Gear 4th forms—just sticking with Gear 2nd should be enough to easily defeat him, considering how much of a power and speed boost that form already grants him (as seen with Blueno, who was somewhat relative to Enies Lobby Luffy, only to get overpowered and speed-blitzed by Gear 2nd).

This means either we have to assume that Snakeman’s power and speed increase is so insignificant that it barely made Luffy stronger or faster than before—which, logically speaking, doesn’t make sense—or, more likely, that Katakuri has always remained above Base, Gear 2nd, and Gear 3rd Luffy all along from start to finish.

And then there's the infamous statement about Katakuri no longer viewing Luffy as inferior to him (or that he now sees him as an equal, depending on the translation). However, if you actually read and pay attention to the context, you'll realize that the quote was never referring to strength or speed—it was about Luffy's willpower and resilience and how that allow him to outlast Katakuri's own will.

The entire Luffy vs. Katakuri fight was all about whose willpower and mindset were stronger, and I think this videos explains it better than I do:

 
Stefano4444 said:
To summarize, after rewatching the fight between Luffy and Katakuri, I’ve found reason to believe that our current Whole Cake Island scaling is very inaccurate and based on a flawed interpretation of Katakuri's quote—which is not only unproven but, if anything, creates a serious contradiction.

Specifically, the idea that Luffy supposedly became significantly stronger and faster during their fight to the point where he reached Katakuri's level in his Base. However, this isn't supported by the fight itself. From the beginning to the end, Base Luffy never managed to fight on par with Katakuri. If anything, Katakuri consistently had the upper hand in combat—even when Luffy used Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd.

While unlocking Future Sight did help Luffy perform better—allowing him to dodge some attacks, parry one with Gear 3rd, and even land a hit—he was still getting tossed around, taking more and more damage, and remained largely on the defensive. He could barely keep up, and only with great difficulty. The only moments where Luffy was able to press Katakuri or gain the upper hand were while using Gear 4th.

With Boundman, Luffy was able to briefly overwhelm Katakuri with a barrage of attacks while Katakuri's Future Sight was inactive. However, Katakuri quickly regained his composure and reactivated his Observation Haki, once again outspeeding Luffy. Despite taking multiple hits, Katakuri remained in relatively good condition and proceeded to unleash his Awakening, which allowed him to match Boundman’s offensive power. He even managed to injure Luffy and send him flying—just as Boundman had done to him earlier. And of course, with Snakeman, it was clearly shown that both fighters were finally on equal footing. For the first time, Luffy was truly able to match Katakuri’s speed and strength.

As you can see, the idea that Base Luffy = Katakuri doesn't really match with what has transpired in the original story.

Especially when it doesn't even make sense—if Base Luffy = Katakuri, then how can Katakuri also be equal to Snakeman at the same time? While weaker than Boundman, Snakeman should still increase Luffy's physical strength beyond at least Gear 2nd, if not Gear 3rd as well. And of course, in terms of speed, it's above all other forms. Realistically, at that point, Luffy wouldn't even need to use any Gear 4th forms—just sticking with Gear 2nd should be enough to easily defeat him, considering how much of a power and speed boost that form already grants him (as seen with Blueno, who was somewhat relative to Enies Lobby Luffy, only to get overpowered and speed-blitzed by Gear 2nd).

This means either we have to assume that Snakeman’s power and speed increase is so insignificant that it barely made Luffy stronger or faster than before—which, logically speaking, doesn’t make sense—or, more likely, that Katakuri has always remained above Base, Gear 2nd, and Gear 3rd Luffy all along from start to finish.

And then there's the infamous statement about Katakuri no longer viewing Luffy as inferior to him (or that he now sees him as an equal, depending on the translation). However, if you actually read and pay attention to the context, you'll realize that the quote was never referring to strength or speed—it was about Luffy's willpower and resilience.

The entire Luffy vs. Katakuri fight was all about whose willpower and mindset were stronger, and I think this videos explains it better than I do:

Click to expand...

I'm sorry
Because I haven't been on the wiki heavy in a while, I did not know we scaled Base Luffy to the previous Gear 4th Luffy
The same Katakuri who was equal in strength to Post-Quote Snakeman who got bodied by Pre-Quote Bounceman?
What?

You have my agreeal with removing this
 
KingTempest said:
Because I haven't been on the wiki heavy in a while, I did not know we scaled Base Luffy to the previous Gear 4th Luffy
The same Katakuri who was equal in strength to Post-Quote Snakeman who got bodied by Pre-Quote Bounceman?
Click to expand...
Yes, Monkey D. Luffy (Emperor)'s First Key rely on that to justify the jump from 6-C to 6-B in Base.

Attack Potency: Country level (Much stronger than before. Charlotte Katakuri acknowledged Luffy's strength, stating that he did not see him as inferior. Clashed with many of Katakuri's Awakened Mochi fists before landing a strike on the side of his face), higher with Gear 2nd (Stronger than his previous Gear 2nd), Country level+ with Gear 4th: Snakeman (At least 4x stronger than his base state thanks to the compressive strength of Gear 4th. Fought and matched Katakuri blow for blow), higher with Gear 3rd (Clashed evenly with a large Mochi strike from Katakuri), Large Country level with Gear 4th: Boundman (Much stronger than Gear 3rd. 4x stronger than his Hawk Bazooka, which is twice as strong as a regular Gear 2nd punch), far higher with Strongest Attacks (Can unleash attacks least 4x as powerful as Gear 3rd due to the tensile strength of his strikes)
 
Well, now that enough agree on the revision, now its time to focus on determinate the new scaling.
 
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As the current stats for Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key for Monkey D. Luffy (Emperor) really doesn't make sense.

Either we merge it with Whole Cake Island Key for Monkey D. Luffy (Post-Timeskip), or they remain separated.

Even in that case Tier, AP, Durability, Speed and Strength still need to be revisited as the Whole Cake Island Key has its own issues for what i have see.

Katakuri would also requied some revision and Smoothie and Cracker probably need to be taken a look to make sure everything match.
 
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Lets start wtih Monkey D. Luffy (Post-Timeskip) assuming that we keep Whole Cake Island Key and Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key as separated.

1) Remove any scaling/mention related to Katakuri, as any feats displayed in that fight should be exclusive only to Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key only.

Attack Potency/Striking Strength: Island level+ (Stopped a blade swing from Charlotte Cracker's 1 Armed Biscuit Soldier and made it wince from a kick), higher with Gear 2nd, up to Large Island level with Gear 3rd (Stronger than before. Slightly pushed back a 3 Armed Biscuit Soldier that overpowered a Hawk Gatling), Country level with Gear 4th: Boundman (Stronger than before. Shook the seducing woods as he clashed with Cracker's real body), far higher with Strongest Attacks (Stronger than his Leo Bazooka, which is twice as strong as his standard Gear 4th: Boundman attacks. His Cannonball in Gear 4th: Tankman Stuffed Version was able to one-shot both Cracker and several of his Biscuit Soldiers)

Speed: At least Relativistic (Faster than before. Intercepted an attack from a 1 Armed Biscuit Soldier and kicked its arm before it could react), at least Relativistic+ with Gear 2nd, far higher with Gear 4th: Boundman (Far faster than before. Dodged Cracker's Honey Pretzel technique)

Durability: Island level+ (Took hits from a 1 Armed Biscuit Soldier), higher with Gear 2nd, far higher with Busōshoku Haki (Took many attacks from Cracker's 3 Armed Biscuit Soldiers), Country level with Gear 4th: Boundman, far higher with Gear 4th: Tankman Stuffed Version (Far more durable than Gear 4th: Boundman. Withstand Cracker's Honey Pretzel technique)

Stamina: Superhuman (Has an immensely high endurance and recovery speed. Capable of lasting in brawls for nearly a dozen hours with no rest. During his more serious fights, Luffy has suffered life-threatening injuries that gave him severe internal bleeding and damage to his organs, and he could continue fighting with only moderate lapses. He only stops fighting when it is physically impossible for him to even move. He took several strikes from Rob Lucci that affected all of his organs and left him in a large puddle of his own blood, yet he could stand back up shortly after and withstand the same attack immediately after. After the Marineford War, Luffy suffered from severe physical and mental trauma due to the loss of his brother, his life-threatening injuries, and having to use adrenaline-based drugs more than once to keep fighting, only to merely pass out and go on a rampage several hours later immediately after going through surgery, and being in perfect condition some time after. Able to persevere with highly lethal poison coursing through his veins and with grave wounds. His endurance can be nearly completely restored instantly if he eats meat)

2) Remove Greater Haki and Greater Damage Boost and again Future Sight and Snakeman are exclusive to Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key as that Key meant to rappresent Luffy during/after his fight with Katakuri and not prior.
 
Nierre said:
though you don't need to copy and paste the whole profiles lol you can just remake the stats portions
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Ok i will keep it in mind next time.

Anyway, what its your opinion about Fifth Emperor of the Sea Key and Whole Cake Island Key?

Do you think it make more sense for both of them to remain separated or we should merge them?
 
Also does this downgrade affect Post Udon/Rooftop Luffy as well?

We also have Post Udon/Rooftop Base Luffy surpassing his previous Gear 4th interaction like we assume he did against Katakuri?
 
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I also probably going to need some help to adjust/correct the references, i don't know exactly to correct them.
 
@Nierre Do you know (or can you call) any other OP knowledgeable member to call to further evaluate this revision as well as to help me determinate the new scaling?
 
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