The CRT to end all CRTs: Naruto Revision (Kir-in)

[Testarossa002]

Hey
This thread seeks to upgrade Kirin's speed to SOL
Upgrade thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/happy-new-year-from-kishimoto.147078/
Downgrade thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kirin-more-like-kir-out-usopplaugh.170173/

Spoiler: 2000 words. Take your time

See naruto chapter 390-391 for full context
Zetsu's Reliability
I'm not going to sit here and argue that Zetsu was unintelligent or lacking in knowledge—far from it. In fact, he's highly intelligent, possesses sharp deductive reasoning, and is arguably the most well-informed individual when it comes to shinobi affairs in the entire Naruto series (excluding Boruto). However, that doesn't make him omniscient. He doesn't have complete knowledge of every individual or technique within the universe. This is precisely why he's not a reliable source when it comes to evaluating Kirin's capabilities.

Zetsu had absolutely no prior knowledge of Kirin’s existence or mechanics until Sasuke revealed it. What he did do was apply his strong deductive skills to gain a partial understanding of how the technique functions..

Zetsu observed Sasuke launch a fire-style jutsu into the sky to generate a cumulonimbus cloud, and using that observation—combined with his deep understanding of shinobi techniques and nature—he deduced the mechanics behind Kirin. The seemingly factual statements he made were not from firsthand knowledge of the technique itself, but rather inferred from his existing understanding of how natural cloud-to-ground lightning forms and behaves. One such statement was about Kirin's speed, which he based on Sasuke’s own explanation that it was natural lightning drawn from the sky.

Zetsu: Just as I thought. Which is why it can not be evaded. The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second. It's faster than sound.

Take note of the bolded section. Zetsu made a statement about the speed of lightning based on his general knowledge of natural lightning—not a direct statement about Kirin itself. (Technically, he referred to a timeframe rather than actual speed, but for the sake of moving forward, let's assume Kishimoto didn’t distinguish between the two.) While it's true that he applied his understanding of natural lightning to infer how Kirin might work, he never made a definitive, factual claim about Kirin itself.

Kirin: Natural lightning or more?
As previously established, Kirin’s mechanics bear a strong resemblance to those of naturally occurring cloud-to-ground lightning—but resemblance is not equivalence. They are similar, not identical, not a perfect one-to-one match.
The process behind Kirin’s creation is far from natural. It involved the intense heat generated by four powerful fire-style jutsu and Amaterasu, all used to form the necessary cumulonimbus cloud. The resulting lightning strike produced by Kirin is several orders of magnitude more destructive than standard natural lightning.
In fact, moments before Kirin strikes, we see multiple natural lightning bolts hit the ground—none of which carry the same level of power or narrative weight that Sasuke attributes to Kirin. Sasuke does make a notable statement that could be interpreted to suggest Kirin is equivalent to natural lightning. However, this is potentially hyperbolic.
After all, Sasuke claims he did nothing but “guide” Kirin to strike Itachi. Yet in reality, he did quite a bit—he launched four massive fire-style jutsu while in his Cursed Mark Stage 2 form, which ultimately generated a dragon-shaped lightning strike. Natural lightning doesn't manifest from that kind of process, nor does it take on the form of a creature. Kirin may mimic natural lightning in function, but it is clearly a highly artificial and enhanced technique.

Narrative Support (or lack of)
There are differing views on how lightning is treated in-verse.
What is however, more consistent, is that lightning speed isn't really considered an issue for Jonin tier ninjas
False Darkness
Although the databook states that dodging lightning is an extremely difficult feat, Kakashi went a step further—he didn’t just evade it, he completely outpaced it.

雷の数を増やせば、複数の敵を一瞬で屠ることも可能。高速で飛来する雷鳴をかわすのは至難の業!!
By increasing the number of lightning bolts, it’s possible to slaughter multiple enemies in an instant. Dodging the lightning roaring toward them at high speed is an extremely difficult task!!

Even non-jonins like Shikamaru could react to the jutsu.

Raikiri
According to Raikiri's lore, Kakashi once used Chidori to cut through natural cloud-to-ground lightning. The distance between him and the lightning is irrelevant—the key point is that he wasn't helpless against it. This directly contradicts Zetsu's initial deduction about lightning being virtually unavoidable.

Kankuro
Kankuro and a team of Suna-nin were able to evade natural lightning, demonstrating that it isn’t entirely unavoidable. In fact, the only individual who was struck was caught off-guard, not overwhelmed by its speed.

It was a specialty of Sunagakura shinobi to use the chakra that shinobi had and turn them into strings that could control puppets. Using chakra strings to control kozura’s directions, sort of like a homing device, was an original technique invented by Amagi. But, like I said. He’s still young. “RUOOOOOOO!” The giant roared, gathering all his strength. coy Amagi noticed something unusual was about to happen, and hurriedly moved to retract the kozura from their course. But, he was one second- no, half a second too late. It was lightning. A bolt of lightning burst out of the giant’s body, and struck the area where Kankurou and the other shinobi were gathered. “Amagi!” Kankurou yelled. He and the other shinobi were fine. They’d only lost their footing from the impact of the thunderclap.

Shinobi were special people who constantly put themselves out into the battlefield of missions, and receive various types of training. No matter how much blood has been spilt, no matter how much they fear death, if they just hear the details of their mission again, they instinctively start to calm down. Kankurou didn’t know whether this behaviour was a blessing from being human or not. All he knew was that right now, he didn’t want the young subordinate in front of his eyes to fearfully die. He’d applied first aid to stop the bleeding too. “He does use Lightning Release for his expansion in size, but when it comes to his electromagnetic power, it’s a different matter.” Kankurou continued. “The giant’s walking creates a piezoelectric effect where subterranean graphite is crushed, and electrical discharge is created. So, he takes that energy from the natural world surrounding him, and uses that instead of being limited by his own reserves.” “',.’m sorry.” Amagi mumbled, tightly clinging onto Kankurou’s hand.

Mangekyo Sharingan
The Mangekyo is noted to be capable of perceiving movements at a lower timeframe than Kirin's supposed "speed"

“Mangekyo sharingan,” Shisui murmured. The eyes of his friend, now crimson, took on a shape unlike any other sharingan Itachi had ever seen.
Normally, the sharingan had a small black dot in the center of the eye, and in the circle around that, the snake tails of magatama-shaped specks popped up. The power differed depending on the number of magatamas, but the form itself was common to the entire clan.
But Shisui’s was different. The three commas of the magatama were enlarged and connected, and the small black dot in the center had disappeared, leaving a crimson hollow. If the ratio of red to black in a normal sharingan was eight to two, then Shisui’s eyes at that moment appeared to be a fifty-fifty struggle for supremacy.
Most likely, the intersection of the gazes of Shisui and Mukai had lasted less than a thousandth of a second.
For a normal sharingan, the user couldn’t be certain of capturing his opponent in a moment that short. Shisui had not missed that fleeting instant. Mukai had definitely been ensnared in the genjutsu.

How fast is Kirin?
Having established that Zetsu is an unreliable narrator in this instance—due to both his lack of prior knowledge about Kirin and the inconsistencies between his deductions and established lore—I propose that Kirin’s speed is better classified as being equal to the speed of light.

We already have two separate statements from official sources—the Databook and the Fanbook—that support this interpretation. To further reinforce this claim, I’m presenting additional evidence from the Second Naruto Fanbook, which includes a novella recounting the Sasuke vs. Itachi battle. Below is an excerpt from that novella, with the relevant portion highlighted in bold (credits to @Samlex1234 for the scan)

「ワッカ…ザ…サスケ…火遁…カタメー」

黒いゼツが、その囁きを目にしたたん、言った。

「どういうこと…？」

白いゼツが応じる。

「アイツが読めたね。

『火遁攻撃・狙イバナ・ザ・サスケ』

トイウノヲ……」

「コイツァ…ウェルギア・サック、

膨大ナ大気（エネ

ルギー利用）デ、雷遁術・雷雲行ウタノダ…！」

サスケはチャクラを左手に蓄えさせ、建物の最上部に飛び乗った。

建物の頂上にそびえる巨大な板状の柱の上に乗る。

降りしきる雨はますます激しく、頭上の雲の中を

生き物のように蠢く雷光の先端が、地上の危険人物

建物の周囲で震えさせる。

さらにその昇気流をみて「天照」の黒炎が放つ

すべてが、サスケを中心に廻っているのだった。

「この術は、天から降る雷…オレは、その力をサス

ケへと導いただけ」

稲光を目にした時、すでに雷は落ちているからである。

「術の名は…麒麟…」

Which was translated on-site to mean:

More so, looking at the atmospheric current rising, all the released black flames of “Amaterasu” were revolving around Sasuke as the center.
This jutsu is lightning down from the heavens... I merely guided that power."
When you see the flash of lightning, the thunderbolt has already struck down.
The jutsu's name is... Kirin..."

Now, we have 3 statements that strongly imply SOL Kirin

To the main argument in the downgrade thread - hyperbole

The first problem with this statement is that "approaching the opponent at light speed, it's superb" is suspiciously similar to other common figurative descriptions like "striking the opponent with lightning fast strikes, he's quick" which describes the attack/attacker as incredibly fast and deadly, but ultimately isn't supposed to be assumed as literal given its grammatical structure (describing something as approaching at the speed of light, then introducing another word to specifically comment on the "superb-ness" of that level of speed, isn't usually supposed to be assume literal as it's using exaggerated language to show the reader how absolutely crazy this thing is. The introduction of that type of language calls into question the legitimacy of a literal interpretation, which requires evidence of it being literal to be provided, which hasn't been provided yet)

This statement has the same, exact problems as the previous one, but even more egregious since it's described as a "light speed strike" that is "unavoidable" and how it'll "blow away the opponent with no time to even blink". All of this language used is heavily exaggerated to show the sheer strength and speed behind Kirin, it isn't supposed to be taken literal unless we assume the strike is truly unavoidable and that it will blow away the opponent with no time to even blink. We can't just cherry pick what we believe is literal and what is figurative.

I honestly don't have a lot to say to these
I'll paraphrase from my response in the thread

For the statements themselves
Regarding the first statement, the phrase “it’s superb” functions as an additional descriptor to “approaching at light speed”—not a qualifier that undermines its literal meaning. There seems to be a tendency to interpret such statements as figurative by default, but there’s no compelling reason to do so in this context.

Saying something like “a lightning giraffe approaching at light speed—it’s superb” is simply highlighting how astonishing or impressive the feat is. It emphasizes the spectacle, not the literal accuracy of the speed claim. This kind of phrasing doesn’t discredit or negate the statement about the speed being light-speed; rather, it reinforces how remarkable that fact is.

For example, saying “a Bugatti accelerates from 0 to 90 km/h in 2 seconds—it’s superb” conveys both a factual statement about speed and a subjective evaluation of its impressiveness. The same logic applies here: the statement about Kirin’s speed remains literal, and “it’s superb” just underscores how extraordinary that speed is.

Moreover, nowhere in Naruto has a statement like "X moves at the speed of light" been interpreted as hyperbole. As I’ve pointed out earlier, there are multiple instances in the series where such claims are made without them being dismissed as exaggerated.

For instance, Amaterasu is repeatedly hailed as undodgeable in the manga, yet Sasuke manages to aim-dodge it in the very next chapter. Similarly, Ethereal Transmission is said to be capable of tearing humans to pieces, but just a few panels later, Tsunade only suffers minor surface injuries. Gaara's sand shield is touted as invulnerable, only to be bypassed by Lee moments later. These examples come directly from the manga, and they don’t discredit the original hype or claim.

In short, I don’t find the argument that "speed of light" is hyperbolic to be tenable—especially when we have three separate statements across different mediums all saying the same thing.

Tl;Dr
Pro lightning speed
1. Unreliable source
2. Inconsistent with the narrative
Pro light speed
1. Reliable source(s)
2. No contradictions with narrative
3. Looks cool on profile

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I glanced through it briefly and I agree.

 

[Shmooply]

I disagr- oh nevermind it's Kirin wank, agree.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Sounds about right, that using supernatural fire to form a cloud almost instantly to then form a mythological entity out of lightning that is far faster and stronger than normal lightning. I agree

 

[Damage3245]

I'm on holiday right now so I won't be able evaluate this for 2 days, but I am interested, if that's alright.

EDIT: after scanning the OP I'll give a preliminary disagree vote as there's nothing really new here that I haven't seen before but I will give a more in-depth evaluation as soon as I can.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Beautiful work test, (The OP could use some scans to make it easier to work with the translations)


3 different statements reinforcing the same idea followed by a perfect breakdown on why the lightning speed arguments are goofy, definitely agree

---

Sounds about right, that using supernatural fire to form a cloud almost instantly to then form a mythological entity out of lightning that is far faster and stronger than normal lightning. I agree

what do you mean a Chinese Dragon shaped attack ISN'T natural lightning? the narutards are at it again!

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

3. Looks cool on profile

You had me at this bit, icl

But in all seriousness, I'm inclined to agree with the OP tbh.
I'll wait to hear the counters before fully casting a vote, but I don't think the SOL Kirin arguments are half bad at all, and I like the implications of it quite a bit as well.

 

[LordTracer]

3. Looks cool on profile

Absolutely no notes, ship it

I am interested to see what counters there might be, but at the moment, I’m in agreement with the thread.

 

[Samlex1234]

Hey
This thread seeks to upgrade Kirin's speed to SOL
Upgrade thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/happy-new-year-from-kishimoto.147078/
Downgrade thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kirin-more-like-kir-out-usopplaugh.170173/

Spoiler: 2000 words. Take your time

See naruto chapter 390-391 for full context
Zetsu's Reliability
I'm not going to sit here and argue that Zetsu was unintelligent or lacking in knowledge—far from it. In fact, he's highly intelligent, possesses sharp deductive reasoning, and is arguably the most well-informed individual when it comes to shinobi affairs in the entire Naruto series (excluding Boruto). However, that doesn't make him omniscient. He doesn't have complete knowledge of every individual or technique within the universe. This is precisely why he's not a reliable source when it comes to evaluating Kirin's capabilities.

Zetsu had absolutely no prior knowledge of Kirin’s existence or mechanics until Sasuke revealed it. What he did do was apply his strong deductive skills to gain a partial understanding of how the technique functions..

Zetsu observed Sasuke launch a fire-style jutsu into the sky to generate a cumulonimbus cloud, and using that observation—combined with his deep understanding of shinobi techniques and nature—he deduced the mechanics behind Kirin. The seemingly factual statements he made were not from firsthand knowledge of the technique itself, but rather inferred from his existing understanding of how natural cloud-to-ground lightning forms and behaves. One such statement was about Kirin's speed, which he based on Sasuke’s own explanation that it was natural lightning drawn from the sky.

Take note of the bolded section. Zetsu made a statement about the speed of lightning based on his general knowledge of natural lightning—not a direct statement about Kirin itself. (Technically, he referred to a timeframe rather than actual speed, but for the sake of moving forward, let's assume Kishimoto didn’t distinguish between the two.) While it's true that he applied his understanding of natural lightning to infer how Kirin might work, he never made a definitive, factual claim about Kirin itself.

Kirin: Natural lightning or more?
As previously established, Kirin’s mechanics bear a strong resemblance to those of naturally occurring cloud-to-ground lightning—but resemblance is not equivalence. They are similar, not identical, not a perfect one-to-one match.
The process behind Kirin’s creation is far from natural. It involved the intense heat generated by four powerful fire-style jutsu and Amaterasu, all used to form the necessary cumulonimbus cloud. The resulting lightning strike produced by Kirin is several orders of magnitude more destructive than standard natural lightning.
In fact, moments before Kirin strikes, we see multiple natural lightning bolts hit the ground—none of which carry the same level of power or narrative weight that Sasuke attributes to Kirin. Sasuke does make a notable statement that could be interpreted to suggest Kirin is equivalent to natural lightning. However, this is potentially hyperbolic.
After all, Sasuke claims he did nothing but “guide” Kirin to strike Itachi. Yet in reality, he did quite a bit—he launched four massive fire-style jutsu while in his Cursed Mark Stage 2 form, which ultimately generated a dragon-shaped lightning strike. Natural lightning doesn't manifest from that kind of process, nor does it take on the form of a creature. Kirin may mimic natural lightning in function, but it is clearly a highly artificial and enhanced technique.

Narrative Support (or lack of)
There are differing views on how lightning is treated in-verse.
What is however, more consistent, is that lightning speed isn't really considered an issue for Jonin tier ninjas
False Darkness
Although the databook states that dodging lightning is an extremely difficult feat, Kakashi went a step further—he didn’t just evade it, he completely outpaced it.

Even non-jonins like Shikamaru could react to the jutsu.

Raikiri
According to Raikiri's lore, Kakashi once used Chidori to cut through natural cloud-to-ground lightning. The distance between him and the lightning is irrelevant—the key point is that he wasn't helpless against it. This directly contradicts Zetsu's initial deduction about lightning being virtually unavoidable.

Kankuro
Kankuro and a team of Suna-nin were able to evade natural lightning, demonstrating that it isn’t entirely unavoidable. In fact, the only individual who was struck was caught off-guard, not overwhelmed by its speed.



Mangekyo Sharingan
The Mangekyo is noted to be capable of perceiving movements at a lower timeframe than Kirin's supposed "speed"


How fast is Kirin?
Having established that Zetsu is an unreliable narrator in this instance—due to both his lack of prior knowledge about Kirin and the inconsistencies between his deductions and established lore—I propose that Kirin’s speed is better classified as being equal to the speed of light.

We already have two separate statements from official sources—the Databook and the Fanbook—that support this interpretation. To further reinforce this claim, I’m presenting additional evidence from the Second Naruto Fanbook, which includes a novella recounting the Sasuke vs. Itachi battle. Below is an excerpt from that novella, with the relevant portion highlighted in bold (credits to @Samlex1234 for the scan)



Which was translated on-site to mean:


Now, we have 3 statements that strongly imply SOL Kirin

To the main argument in the downgrade thread - hyperbole


I honestly don't have a lot to say to these
I'll paraphrase from my response in the thread

Moreover, nowhere in Naruto has a statement like "X moves at the speed of light" been interpreted as hyperbole. As I’ve pointed out earlier, there are multiple instances in the series where such claims are made without them being dismissed as exaggerated.

For instance, Amaterasu is repeatedly hailed as undodgeable in the manga, yet Sasuke manages to aim-dodge it in the very next chapter. Similarly, Ethereal Transmission is said to be capable of tearing humans to pieces, but just a few panels later, Tsunade only suffers minor surface injuries. Gaara's sand shield is touted as invulnerable, only to be bypassed by Lee moments later. These examples come directly from the manga, and they don’t discredit the original hype or claim.

In short, I don’t find the argument that "speed of light" is hyperbolic to be tenable—especially when we have three separate statements across different mediums all saying the same thing.

Tl;Dr
Pro lightning speed
1. Unreliable source
2. Inconsistent with the narrative
Pro light speed
1. Reliable source(s)
2. No contradictions with narrative
3. Looks cool on profile

Thanks for the CRT, Tet. Just to add, this novel was written by Kishimoto himself to further elaborate on the entire fight and Kirin from an omniscient perspective. I shouldn’t need to explain why the original author providing direct clarification on a jutsu he created outweighs any in-universe hypothesis made by a character he also wrote. That’s three canonical sources all aligning, with the author’s own hand behind them. I fully support this CRT.

 

[Godernet]

very easy agree from me, nice work as usual Test

 

[DavidTPPM]

Nah Kirin is lightning speed and Hidan simply perception blitzes Itachi

 

[That_moron2]

Good work, agree

 

[KingTempest]

...what's the difference between this and all of the other threads we've had?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

...what's the difference between this and all of the other threads we've had?

We added the argument that it looks good on profiles.

 

[KingTempest]

We added the argument that it looks good on profiles.

Hehehehehehe

 

[Testarossa002]

...what's the difference between this and all of the other threads we've had?

1. Additional scan for LS Kirin
2. 3 more narrative support for lightning speed not being an issue for jonin tiers
3. World class argument

Looks cool on profile

EDIT: after scanning the OP I'll give a preliminary disagree vote as there's nothing really new here that I haven't seen before but I will give a more in-depth evaluation as soon as I can.

This is for you too

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I wouldn't really call the people whose feats you listed jonin tier, but I digress. I agree with the thread overall

 

[ssgengar]

We added the argument that it looks good on profiles.

Should be more than enough

 

[karo_senpaii]

I agree.

 

[Stryker861]

Looks good test

 

[thedaymare]

Looks very good, I agree.

 

[Testarossa002]

Just to clarify, I intentionally avoided using arguments based on Raiton being lightning speed. It's not that I don't believe it, but using clearly stated, in-universe facts is much more straightforward than relying on fan-made calculations.
On that note, bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Agree!

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Looking good man

Agree

 

[Damage3245]

I will prioritize addressing what is new about the OP and leave my thoughts on it.

Zetsu's Reliability
I'm not going to sit here and argue that Zetsu was unintelligent or lacking in knowledge—far from it. In fact, he's highly intelligent, possesses sharp deductive reasoning, and is arguably the most well-informed individual when it comes to shinobi affairs in the entire Naruto series (excluding Boruto). However, that doesn't make him omniscient. He doesn't have complete knowledge of every individual or technique within the universe. This is precisely why he's not a reliable source when it comes to evaluating Kirin's capabilities.

I don't follow this. Zetsu isn't an omniscient source, therefore he can't be relied on at all? Since when did a character have to have complete knowledge of everything individual or technique in the Universe to have some legitimacy to their statements?

Zetsu had absolutely no prior knowledge of Kirin’s existence or mechanics until Sasuke revealed it. What he did do was apply his strong deductive skills to gain a partial understanding of how the technique functions..

Sure, I agree that he used some deduction and he didn't know of Kirin's existence prior to seeing it.

Zetsu observed Sasuke launch a fire-style jutsu into the sky to generate a cumulonimbus cloud, and using that observation—combined with his deep understanding of shinobi techniques and nature—he deduced the mechanics behind Kirin. The seemingly factual statements he made were not from firsthand knowledge of the technique itself, but rather inferred from his existing understanding of how natural cloud-to-ground lightning forms and behaves. One such statement was about Kirin's speed, which he based on Sasuke’s own explanation that it was natural lightning drawn from the sky.

Take note of the bolded section. Zetsu made a statement about the speed of lightning based on his general knowledge of natural lightning—not a direct statement about Kirin itself. (Technically, he referred to a timeframe rather than actual speed, but for the sake of moving forward, let's assume Kishimoto didn’t distinguish between the two.) While it's true that he applied his understanding of natural lightning to infer how Kirin might work, he never made a definitive, factual claim about Kirin itself.

He made the inference of why Kirin can't be dodged, and after Sasuke's own words on the subject he said, "Just as I thought".

This is the bolded section that should be paid attention IMO. If it was just Zetsu guessing, and it being left open to question whether he was right, that'd be one thing. But Kishimoto provides additional information not from Zetsu but from the originator of the jutsu, Sasuke, and he uses that to have Zetsu confirm that his earlier suspicions were correct.

Zetsu not being an all-knowing source of information doesn't matter if we're shown support for his deductions in the manga rather than having him be debunked and saying "I guess I was wrong..."

Kirin: Natural lightning or more?
As previously established, Kirin’s mechanics bear a strong resemblance to those of naturally occurring cloud-to-ground lightning—but resemblance is not equivalence. They are similar, not identical, not a perfect one-to-one match.
The process behind Kirin’s creation is far from natural. It involved the intense heat generated by four powerful fire-style jutsu and Amaterasu, all used to form the necessary cumulonimbus cloud. The resulting lightning strike produced by Kirin is several orders of magnitude more destructive than standard natural lightning.
In fact, moments before Kirin strikes, we see multiple natural lightning bolts hit the ground—none of which carry the same level of power or narrative weight that Sasuke attributes to Kirin. Sasuke does make a notable statement that could be interpreted to suggest Kirin is equivalent to natural lightning. However, this is potentially hyperbolic.
After all, Sasuke claims he did nothing but “guide” Kirin to strike Itachi. Yet in reality, he did quite a bit—he launched four massive fire-style jutsu while in his Cursed Mark Stage 2 form, which ultimately generated a dragon-shaped lightning strike. Natural lightning doesn't manifest from that kind of process, nor does it take on the form of a creature. Kirin may mimic natural lightning in function, but it is clearly a highly artificial and enhanced technique.

Artificial in shape, no doubt, but that does not necessarily extend to it being enhanced in speed. I don't see why Kirin being shaped into a fancy dragon shape would debunk Sasuke's own words describing the technique.

Kankuro
Kankuro and a team of Suna-nin were able to evade natural lightning, demonstrating that it isn’t entirely unavoidable. In fact, the only individual who was struck was caught off-guard, not overwhelmed by its speed.

For this novel statement we have very few details on how Kankuro and his team actually moved. All it says really is:

It was lightning. A bolt of lightning burst out of the giant’s body, and struck the area where Kankurou and the other shinobi were gathered. “Amagi!” Kankurou yelled. He and the other shinobi were fine. They’d only lost their footing from the impact of the thunderclap.

How far did they actually move? How close did the lightning end up being to them? Did it just miss? It says it struck the area, but it doesn't tell us that Kankurou and the other ninja actually moved from the area. Without details, it is difficult to say how much bearing this actually has.

Raikiri
According to Raikiri's lore, Kakashi once used Chidori to cut through natural cloud-to-ground lightning. The distance between him and the lightning is irrelevant—the key point is that he wasn't helpless against it. This directly contradicts Zetsu's initial deduction about lightning being virtually unavoidable.

An ordinary lightning bolt is about 2 - 3 cm wide. The size of the projectile that you're dodging - or attempting to dodge - will play a role in your ability to evade it.

Kirin is dozens of meters across. As Zetsu says, the jutsu that Sasuke is about to create from the thunderclouds he crated will be on a completely different scale to anything that anyone else can produce conventionally, which would also make it a far larger scale than natural lightning bolts.

Size alone doesn't make it impossible to dodge though; a slow-moving massive projectile can be evaded, but it is after Zetsu's deduction about the scale of Sasuke's jutsu that he proclaims that he understands why the Kirin cannot be dodged; it is because of it is being launched at the speed of natural lightning.

So Kakashi being able to handle a natural lightning bolt, and theoretically being able to evade one at the time he got his "Lightning-Cutter" moniker does not mean that he'd be able to handle the Kirin just as easily.

There are differing views on how lightning is treated in-verse.
What is however, more consistent, is that lightning speed isn't really considered an issue for Jonin tier ninjas
False Darkness
Although the databook states that dodging lightning is an extremely difficult feat, Kakashi went a step further—he didn’t just evade it, he completely outpaced it.
Even non-jonins like Shikamaru could react to the jutsu.

As mentioned in the above section, the Kirin is on a vastly different scale to Kakazu's False Darkness. Kakashi's speed may not be sufficient for it, and Shikamaru's "reactions" are not a factor as he showed no ability to dodge the lightning at all. It was practically in his face by the time he finished reacting to it.

Mangekyo Sharingan
The Mangekyo is noted to be capable of perceiving movements at a lower timeframe than Kirin's supposed "speed"

I'm not sure what relevance this has. Nobody has claimed that Kirin is faster than the Mangekyo Sharingan's perception speed.

More so, looking at the atmospheric current rising, all the released black flames of “Amaterasu” were revolving around Sasuke as the center.
This jutsu is lightning down from the heavens... I merely guided that power."
When you see the flash of lightning, the thunderbolt has already struck down.
The jutsu's name is... Kirin..."

I don't see this as being an additional support for lightspeed necessarily; it's Sasuke saying that by the time Itachi sees flash of lightning he will already have been hit by Kirin. Seeing something is more than just the photons of it hitting your eyeball; the information still has to travel to your brain to process the information and "see" what is happening. Now, I expect this ties into the previous point about Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan being able to perceive things in very quick timeframes, but remember that this is a boastful statement from Sasuke who doesn't possess the Mangekyo Sharingan himself. He could just be underestimating Itachi here.

But this is a passage from the second fanbook? The manga would take priority over the fanbook passages.

I don't think the OP is convincing enough to overturn Deceived's thread on the topic.

 

[Testarossa002]

Oh boy

 

[Damage3245]

Oh boy

Well, I did promise an evaluation, haha. I assume my response is essentially what you were expecting anyway?

 

[Testarossa002]

Yeah
I should be able to get a response in a day or so

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah
I should be able to get a response in a day or so

No rush.

 

[Testarossa002]

Spoiler

don't follow this. Zetsu isn't an omniscient source, therefore he can't be relied on at all? Since when did a character have to have complete knowledge of everything individual or technique in the Universe to have some legitimacy to their statements?

I went on to explain why he doesn't have legitimacy to his statements which you ended up quoting anyway

He made the inference of why Kirin can't be dodged, and after Sasuke's own words on the subject he said, "Just as I thought".

This is the bolded section that should be paid attention IMO. If it was just Zetsu guessing, and it being left open to question whether he was right, that'd be one thing. But Kishimoto provides additional information not from Zetsu but from the originator of the jutsu, Sasuke, and he uses that to have Zetsu confirm that his earlier suspicions were correct.

He never made any claim about Kirin being “unavoidable” until after Sasuke himself stated it.
2. Sasuke's statement is this:

This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens. In short, I merely directs its power towards you.

Zetsu was under the impression that Sasuke was merely directing natural lightning from the sky, with no further involvement beyond that.
I addressed that line of thought in the OP

In fact, moments before Kirin strikes, we see multiple natural lightning bolts hit the ground—none of which carry the same level of power or narrative weight that Sasuke attributes to Kirin. Sasuke does make a notable statement that could be interpreted to suggest Kirin is equivalent to natural lightning. However, this is potentially hyperbolic.
After all, Sasuke claims he did nothing but “guide” Kirin to strike Itachi. Yet in reality, he did quite a bit—he launched four massive fire-style jutsu while in his Cursed Mark Stage 2 form, which ultimately generated a dragon-shaped lightning strike. Natural lightning doesn't manifest from that kind of process, nor does it take on the form of a creature. Kirin may mimic natural lightning in function, but it is clearly a highly artificial and enhanced technique.

Artificial in shape, no doubt, but that does not necessarily extend to it being enhanced in speed. I don't see why Kirin being shaped into a fancy dragon shape would debunk Sasuke's own words describing the technique.

It actually does matter. Taking his statement literally would imply that lightning "striking down from the heavens"—i.e., typical cloud-to-ground lightning—always possesses mountain-level destructive power. This is clearly not the case, as even within the same chapter, we see lightning strikes hitting the ground with nowhere near the level of devastation Kirin caused

How far did they actually move? How close did the lightning end up being to them? Did it just miss? It says it struck the area, but it doesn't tell us that Kankurou and the other ninja actually moved from the area. Without details, it is difficult to say how much bearing this actually has.

The actual distance they moved is narratively irrelevant—Zetsu never associates lightning’s lethality with the distance between its point of origin and its target. Besides, it’s doubtful the gap was even close to the accepted 3km distance between Kirin and the ground.
What matters is that we're told the lightning was fired at them, and they emerged unharmed. That alone is enough to reasonably deduce that they must have evaded it in some way.

An ordinary lightning bolt is about 2 - 3 cm wide. The size of the projectile that you're dodging - or attempting to dodge - will play a role in your ability to evade it.

Same as my response above.
This though

Kirin is dozens of meters across. As Zetsu says, the jutsu that Sasuke is about to create from the thunderclouds he crated will be on a completely different scale to anything that anyone else can produce conventionally, which would also make it a far larger scale than natural lightning bolts.

Scale as in potency. Not literally size.

'm not sure what relevance this has. Nobody has claimed that Kirin is faster than the Mangekyo Sharingan's perception speed.

Itachi could hypothetically have used a substitution to escape, but that's a highly speculative interpretation.

don't see this as being an additional support for lightspeed necessarily; it's Sasuke saying that by the time Itachi sees flash of lightning he will already have been hit by Kirin. Seeing something is more than just the photons of it hitting your eyeball; the information still has to travel to your brain to process the information and "see" what is happening. Now, I expect this ties into the previous point about Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan being able to perceive things in very quick timeframes, but remember that this is a boastful statement from Sasuke who doesn't possess the Mangekyo Sharingan himself. He could just be underestimating Itachi here.

I see where you're coming from, but I strongly disagree with the bolded section. Sasuke dedicated years of his life solely to defeating Itachi and was trained by someone who had spent the majority of his life studying the Sharingan and its more advanced form, the Mangekyō Sharingan.

You can drop a response if you wish to do so but we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, thanks for getting back to me. I would be interested to know what @UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer and @KingTempest think of my response up above, so that I know what I need to focus any follow-up posts on.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Stood up and started clapping. I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it is important to note it is surprisingly common for authors (Especially ones who do not speak English as their native language) to think "Speed of Sound," "Speed of Lightning," and "Speed of Light" to all be the same thing. To debunk the myths one by one, speed of light is the only one that is a consistent number of those three assuming there are no hyperbole.

But speed of sounds can greatly vary based on temperature or what objects it vibrates through; and it is not strictly Mach 1/(343 m/s). That's like room temperature through air, but it's 4.3x faster in water and over 17.38x faster through solid steel. Finally, when going through microphones and speakers, they transform into EMR waves/Radio waves. Which travel at SoL. And that's the final nail in the coffin, authors get the difference between a sound wave and a radio wave mixed up and thus, various sci fi verses with demonstratively FTL velocity feats being described as 超音速 or "Beyond Sound Speed" and translated as merely "Supersonic" in English localizations are not uncommon.

And Lightning is also more complicated. Since when someone says "Speed of lightning" they aren't properly consistent since lightning is composed of different components. Though, the most popular method would be the lightning bolt. Which can vary between 89,408 m/s to 10,000,000 m/s; with an average of 440,000 m/s. The return strike is like nearly 100,000,000 m/s. Though, the Japanese Kanji for lightning has been mistakenly translated to Thunder before; which is just the sound wave generated from the thunder cloud. See sound notes above, though these specific examples really aren't too fast. But also, there is specifically the flash of lightning, which is just pure light and therefore speed of light. And again, when an author says "Speed of lightning," they may keep it vague if it is a lightning bolt or simply the flash of lightning.

As for the topic at hand, Mach 1 has always been demonstrated pretty slow for Naruto standards, and of course lightning bolts are much faster than that. And if Kirin was truly in the lightning bolt range, it would hardly be considered undodgeable for Naruto standards considering it is pretty consistent that Kakashi Hatake has on more than one occasion been able to "Cut a lightning bolt in half." So, sounds more believable if "Lightning speed" of Kirin is more in line with the flash of lightning rather than a thunder wave or lightning bolt. Not to mention, the extended material that was written by Kishimoto, and wasn't stressed out by workload like he has been back then and is more recent than the manga chapter, does have him outright compare Kirin to the speed of light. There's also the translation above in the OP comparing Kirin to a "flash" of lightning as opposed to a "Bolt" of lightning.

In other words, I agree with the pro light side.

 

[Damage3245]

As for the topic at hand, Mach 1 has always been demonstrated pretty slow for Naruto standards, and of course lightning bolts are much faster than that. And if Kirin was truly in the lightning bolt range, it would hardly be considered undodgeable for Naruto standards considering it is pretty consistent that Kakashi Hatake has on more than one occasion been able to "Cut a lightning bolt in half." So, sounds more believable if "Lightning speed" of Kirin is more in line with the flash of lightning rather than a thunder wave or lightning bolt. Not to mention, the extended material that was written by Kishimoto, and wasn't stressed out by workload like he has been back then and is more recent than the manga chapter, does have him outright compare Kirin to the speed of light. There's also the translation above in the OP comparing Kirin to a "flash" of lightning as opposed to a "Bolt" of lightning.

Did you see my response to the OP where I addressed that part?

Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt in half (which is Combat Speed anyway) really has nothing to do with being able to avoid the Kirin.

And if Kirin is supposed to be considered undodgeable because it is the Speed of Light, why would Kishimoto write Zetsu explain that Kirin is undodgeable because of the Speed of Lightning.

I'm baffled tht we're taking the material from the databook as being better to use than the manga itself. The mechanics of the jutsu make no sense if you go down that route; Sasuke states he is guiding a bolt of natural lightning down towards his target... So it becomes lightspeed? He has no chakra left to amplify it.

 

[KingTempest]

You could be Mach 5 and cut some lightning tbh

 

[MrTayman616]

Does the author know what light speed is?

 

[karo_senpaii]

You could be Mach 5 and cut some lightning tbh

I don't necessarily think kishi was taking that into account. I think kishi was just implying lightning isn't something impossible for kakashi to dodge or react to . Honestly zetsu statement should be treated like an outlier. He's saying cloud to ground lightning is impossible to evade when people moving at like Mach 10 can dodge it. A speed which the verse is well above

 

[KingTempest]

I don't necessarily think kishi was taking that into account. I think kishi was just implying lightning isn't something impossible for kakashi to dodge or react to . Honestly zetsu statement should be treated like an outlier. He's saying cloud to ground lightning is impossible to evade when people moving at like Mach 10 can dodge it. A speed which the verse is well above

Nobody in this verse is running at speeds of mach 10 and such barren for shunshin. Kishi's statement was showcasing the amplification of speed and the power that chidori utilize.

Now I don't feel like voting but saying one of the few statements about speed in the verse is treated like an outlier is asinine to me.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Nobody in this verse is moving at the speed of mach 10 and such barren for shunshin. Kishi's statement was showcasing the amplification of speed and the power that chidori utilize.

Now I don't feel like voting but saying one of the few statements about speed in the verse is treated like an outlier is asinine to me.

He still thought it wise to use lightning as a comparison.
Also zetsu here is clearly talking about reactions or at least quick bursts like shunsin so at the end of the day he still thinks no one in the verse got Mach 10 reactions to dodge lightning.

Well I'm not too pressed about whether it gets accepted or not so agree to disagree

 

[Damage3245]

Nobody in this verse is running at speeds of mach 10 and such barren for shunshin. Kishi's statement was showcasing the amplification of speed and the power that chidori utilize.

Now I don't feel like voting but saying one of the few statements about speed in the verse is treated like an outlier is asinine to me.

Let's not forget that Itachi was also clearly low on chakra and huffing and puffing with exhaustion. He's not going to be in optimal condition like Kakashi would be for his lightning-cutting feat. It's not going to be easy for him to be dodging the Kirin in that state.