The CRT to end all CRTs: Naruto Revision (Kir-in)

[KingTempest]

He still thought it wise to use lightning as a comparison.

There are only 2 things faster than sound that nature causes. Lightning and light. There was nothing else. He was just saying that he’s fast.

Also zetsu here is clearly talking about reactions or at least quick bursts like shunsin so at the end of the day he still thinks no one in the verse got Mach 10 reactions to dodge lightning.

You don’t just need reactions to dodge lightning, you need the movement speed to get the hell away. People aren’t just shoulder checking lightning they need to MOVE

Well I'm not too pressed about whether it gets accepted or not so agree to disagree

Fair

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Did you see my response to the OP where I addressed that part?

Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt in half (which is Combat Speed anyway) really has nothing to do with being able to avoid the Kirin.

And if Kirin is supposed to be considered undodgeable because it is the Speed of Light, why would Kishimoto write Zetsu explain that Kirin is undodgeable because of the Speed of Lightning.

I'm baffled tht we're taking the material from the databook as being better to use than the manga itself. The mechanics of the jutsu make no sense if you go down that route; Sasuke states he is guiding a bolt of natural lightning down towards his target... So it becomes lightspeed? He has no chakra left to amplify it.

I did read it, and understand some points, but I still wrote other arguments. I never said "Cutting Lightning in half" made you faster than lightning, but it does show consistency that "Lightning bolts are not undodgeable." Not to mention, there are plenty feats in the Quadruple digit mach speeds; which would through a wrench under "lightning bolts being undodgeable implication." Also, again, there was a raw Japanese text translated to literally mention "The flash of lightning." In my paragraph, I mention authors often get flash of lightning and bolt of lightning mixed up. But it looks like the actual "Flash" of lightning is the interpreted proper translation thus far. Which would be in line with lightspeed.

 

[Damage3245]

Not to mention, there are plenty feats in the Quadruple digit mach speeds; which would through a wrench under "lightning bolts being undodgeable implication."

I assume you're referring to these?

• Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1914.72)
• Kakashi blocks False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7699.56512406)
• Kakashi intercepts False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7981.519475451894)
• Kirin speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8089)

One of these is Toneri's Attack Speed which I'm sure we can agree has no bearing on this discussion.

One of these is for the Kirin itself so obviously not a factor.

And the other two are both for the same incident, when Kakashi intercepted the False Darkness (with one of those calcs just being for raising his arms).

So that's only really one Quadruple Digit Mach calc that would contradict this. It's not exactly "plenty of feats" as far as I can tell.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I assume you're referring to these?

• Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1914.72)
• Kakashi blocks False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7699.56512406)
• Kakashi intercepts False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7981.519475451894)
• Kirin speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8089)

Just the first three was necessary for listing; I already now the last one is the current discussion.

 

[KingTempest]

Just the first three was necessary for listing; I already now the last one is the current discussion.

The first one is for a god tier who has managed to reach the above lightspeed wall that was placed on lesser characters. It’s like a DC herald having a country level feat.

And Dama already spoke for the others

 

[Damage3245]

Just the first three was necessary for listing; I already now the last one is the current discussion.

Two of those first three don't have any relevance to this topic, as far as I can tell. Do you get where I'm coming from with that or am I not explaining that part well enough? I just want to have more detail on why you believe those three calcs affects this.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

There's also this calc thats accepted but hasn't been added to the verse page.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already have two separate statements from official sources—the Databook and the Fanbook—that support this interpretation. To further reinforce this claim, I’m presenting additional evidence from the Second Naruto Fanbook, which includes a novella recounting the Sasuke vs. Itachi battle. Below is an excerpt from that novella, with the relevant portion highlighted in bold (credits to @Samlex1234 for the scan)


Which was translated on-site to mean:

Now, we have 3 statements that strongly imply SOL Kirin

I still basically find this to be the important highlight.

 

[Damage3245]

There's also this calc thats accepted but hasn't been added to the verse page.

Not accepted for scaling anyone yet.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Not accepted for scaling anyone yet.

I know, I was just throwing it out there that there's another higher end feat thats not on the verse page.

 

[Damage3245]

I still basically find this to be the important highlight.

I get that part, but aren't the fanbooks still notoriously not 100% accurate and we have a note that they're only to be used in a case-by-case basis? If we're in a situation where they're contradicted by something in the manga then the manga is what should take a higher priority.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think the consistency argument being brought up so much is a bit silly. If we call 50 different statements calling people light/lightning timers hyperbolic then of course it will seem inconsistent. Not because it's actually inconsistent but because we forcefully made it inconsistent.

• Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1914.72)
• Kakashi blocks False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7699.56512406)
• Kakashi intercepts False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7981.519475451894)
• Kirin speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 8089)

One of these is Toneri's Attack Speed which I'm sure we can agree has no bearing on this discussion.

No we can't because Zetsu saw Kaguya fight Hagoromo. If we were to actually take his word then Toneri should very much be getting blitzed by lightning while canonically not even pre-p1 Kakashi was.

And the other two are both for the same incident, when Kakashi intercepted the False Darkness (with one of those calcs just being for raising his arms).

Yes which is also narratively consistent with him cutting lightning, proving it's not impossible to react to and should very much be dodgeable.

So that's only really one Quadruple Digit Mach calc that would contradict this. It's not exactly "plenty of feats" as far as I can tell.

Like others have said you can avoid lightning if you're as slow as like Mach 5-10 because of the distance it has to travel since Cumulonimbus clouds get at high as 20km.

So every single statement or feat in the entire series putting characters in the double digit Mach range contradicts Zetsu. Now add precog and even slower characters can probably avoid lightning. To take Zetsus statement here over multiple WoG statements under the false idea of "consistency" is absurd.

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm baffled tht we're taking the material from the databook as being better to use than the manga itself. The mechanics of the jutsu make no sense if you go down that route; Sasuke states he is guiding a bolt of natural lightning down towards his target... So it becomes lightspeed? He has no chakra left to amplify it.

I'm equally baffled that you're "dying" on the hill of Kirin being just natural lightning when it's obviously not the case. That shit nuked a mountain instantly. With that level of potency, the entire verse would be eliminated whenever thunderstorms happen. If Kirin obviously doesn't carry the potency of a natural lightning bolt, why are we still claiming it to be just so?

Konohamaru dodged CTG lightning while mid-air (no flight ability) and he's regarded as a mere jonin. I refuse to believe that Sasuke (whose base speed was already considered to be well above high tiered jonins like deidara) spent 3 years developing a trump card with "unprecedented speed" that can be dodged by Konohamaru


We'll just agree to disagree at this point
@KingTempest I don't think you’ve officially casted a vote here

 

[Damage3245]

Yes which is also narratively consistent with him cutting lightning, proving it's not impossible to react to and should very much be dodgeable.

Sorry, but who the hell said that it was impossible to react to?

 

[Testarossa002]

Like earlier stated, I deliberately avoided using raiton based arguments because I don't want to be dragged into a separate debate
Episode 20 sarada has lightning timing feats dfkm

 

[DavidTPPM]

Sorry, but who the hell said that it was impossible to react to?

Both Sasuke and Zetsu…?

 

[Damage3245]

Both Sasuke and Zetsu…?

I don't see the word 'react' there. I want to be specific with the terminology here because being unable to evade something is different to being unable to react to something.

 

[Damage3245]

I think the consistency argument being brought up so much is a bit silly. If we call 50 different statements calling people light/lightning timers hyperbolic then of course it will seem inconsistent. Not because it's actually inconsistent but because we forcefully made it inconsistent.

Are there 50 statements in this case? If not, how many are there?

No we can't because Zetsu saw Kaguya fight Hagoromo. If we were to actually take his word then Toneri should very much be getting blitzed by lightning while canonically not even pre-p1 Kakashi was.

Neither Kaguya or Hagoromo exist in any fighting capacity at the time Zetsu made his statement. No reason to believe he is speaking about people from the distant past here; and Sasuke who made the statement first (which Zetsu is referring to) certainly doesn't have knowledge of them.

Like others have said you can avoid lightning if you're as slow as like Mach 5-10 because of the distance it has to travel since Cumulonimbus clouds get at high as 20km.

So every single statement or feat in the entire series putting characters in the double digit Mach range contradicts Zetsu. Now add precog and even slower characters can probably avoid lightning. To take Zetsus statement here over multiple WoG statements under the false idea of "consistency" is absurd.

Kirin was not formly that highly. And characters having much higher combat speed than Mach 5-10 isn't a contradiction for it. Shinobi are stated to run as fast as a galloping horse. Outside of very short bursts of speed with Shunshin, nobody is regularly outrunning lightning bolts otherwise they'd be zipping across the continent easily.

I'm equally baffled that you're "dying" on the hill of Kirin being just natural lightning when it's obviously not the case. That shit nuked a mountain instantly. With that level of potency, the entire verse would be eliminated whenever thunderstorms happen. If Kirin obviously doesn't carry the potency of a natural lightning bolt, why are we still claiming it to be just so?

This is not an AP thread, it's a speed thread. We already know even before we see the results of the feat that it will be vastly more powerful than any individual lightning bolt because Zetsu stated it would be on a scale incomparable to conventional Raiton jutsu.

Konohamaru dodged CTG lightning while mid-air (no flight ability) and he's regarded as a mere jonin. I refuse to believe that Sasuke (whose base speed was already considered to be well above high tiered jonins like deidara) spent 3 years developing a trump card with "unprecedented speed" that can be dodged by Konohamaru

We don't even see Konohamaru moving on-screen in that clip you sent.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't see the word 'react' there.

Really? Sure bro I also don't see the words "the speed of Kirin is the speed of lighting" there so all this does is upscale in-universe lightning without affecting Kirins speed.

Hitting the ground from 20km away in 1/1000 of a second upscales lightning to almost Mach 59,000

I want to be specific with the terminology here because being unable to evade something is different to being unable to react to something.

Alrighty then.
Evade definitions:

Oxford: escape or avoid (someone or something)

Cambridge: to avoid or escape from someone or something

Collins: If you evade someone or something, you move so that you can avoid meeting them or avoid being touched or hit.

As you can see evading something simply means avoiding it. So any sort of reacting that would help the target avoid lightning would by definition be evading such as Itachi blocking it with Kirin. Meaning if we're being REALLY specific with the terminology, Itachi debunked this statement on screen.

And so anyone who could teleport out of the way (Kaguya, Minato, Tobirama, etc), or put up something strong enough to block it (literally anyone who can react and has building level or above AP/dura) can by definition evade lightning.

 

[Damage3245]

As you can see evading something simply means avoiding it. So any sort of reacting that would help the target avoid lightning would by definition be evading such as Itachi blocking it with Kirin. Meaning if we're being REALLY specific with the terminology, Itachi debunked this statement on screen.

And so anyone who could teleport out of the way (Kaguya, Minato, Tobirama, etc), or put up something strong enough to block it (literally anyone who can react and has building level or above AP/dura) can by definition evade lightning.

Yes, you understand that's not actually an issue, right?

I feel like this is a point that some people just do not understand. Statements are made within the character's own knowledge.

When Temari states that Gaara has an "absolute defense" with his automatically reacting sand, she is obviously speaking within the constraints of her own knowledge and experience. It means she hasn't yet seen anything that can breach his shield. Obviously if a Tailed Beast dropped a Biju Bomb on Part 1 Gaara's head, guess what, that "absolute defense" isn't so absolute anymore. Does that mean that because Temari was wrong that the statement she gave is completely worthless? No, because it doesn't mean what you thought it meant if you believed she was saying from some kind of Omniscient point of view "Nothing in the entirety of the known and unknown Universe can possibly breach Gaara's defenses." The statement is still useable is you consider the context in which it is said.

When a character comments that Amateraus is undodgeable, it's because it is within their experience. Amaterasu is so difficult to evade that it took the fastest Shinobi in the world with multiple speed-amps to be able to narrowly side-step it when Sasuke tried using it on him. Does that fact that just one Shinobi in the entire world manage to dodge it therefore mean that Amaterasu is actually slow as hell? No; it's still really, really difficult to dodge.

Yes; characters can teleport out of the way of the Kirin. But I think it should be pretty obvious from context that Sasuke isn't including those people in his statement. He doesn't know that technique, has never fought anyone that used it, etc. Nobody who even knows how to do it perfectly is alive.

And yes - Itachi did block Kirin. That just means that Sasuke is wrong only because he lacked specific knowledge of the Susano'o. That is not the same thing as statements from characters being completely unuseable. If we axed statements just because characters are fallible then we shouldn't be using any statement-based scaling at all on the wiki just because there's room for characters to be wrong, uninformed or misinformed.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Neither Kaguya or Hagoromo exist in any fighting capacity at the time Zetsu made his statement. No reason to believe he is speaking about people from the distant past here;

What? What reason is there to believe he's only talking about people who are alive rn? He said it's "impossible to evade", not that "nobody alive can evade it".

If I say it's impossible to fit a plane up your bum would I be talking about just people who are alive or all living beings I have knowledge of?

You'd have to be making a huge assumption about what he's saying to make the statement not apply to Kaguya and others.

Kirin was not formly that highly.

Yeah this time but he didn't say Kirin is unavoidable because it's unusually close to the ground did he? He said it's impossible to evade and then said how fast lightning hits the ground.

Like I said technically Zetsu didn't say anything about Kirin being lightning speed so if we REALLY want to be precise and specific with statements there's nothing to even talk about here, but if we assume that's what he meant then the distance here was irrelevant.

And characters having much higher combat speed than Mach 5-10 isn't a contradiction for it. Shinobi are stated to run as fast as a galloping horse. Outside of very short bursts of speed with Shunshin, nobody is regularly outrunning lightning bolts otherwise they'd be zipping across the continent easily.

Lightning bolts are about 3 inches thin. Do you think Shinobi can't jump, say, 30 inches at their peak speed?

This is not an AP thread, it's a speed thread. We already know even before we see the results of the feat that it will be vastly more powerful than any individual lightning bolt because Zetsu stated it would be on a scale incomparable to conventional Raiton jutsu.

Yeah so the speed can also be much higher as the bolt clearly has far more energy..

Are there 50 statements in this case? If not, how many are there?

I'll be fr I haven't been actually scaling Naruto that much for years now so I don't remember every statement off the top of my head. I'm pointing this out because the "consistency" argument is abused in basically every upgrade thread here.

Just recently off the top of my head:
FTL bijuu bombs? Consistency.
New kn6 calc? Consistency.
Isshiki/BMN scaling to a portion of ETSO? Consistency.

Of course if you try to stop any and every upgrade attempt with the excuse of "consistency" you'll create a lower "consistent" rating.

 

[Damage3245]

Lightning bolts are about 3 inches thin. Do you think Shinobi can't jump, say, 30 inches at their peak speed?

I already commented on this in my first response to the OP.

Notice that Zetsu doesn't actually say "Lightning bolts can't be dodged"?

What he says is that he understands why Kirin can't be dodged, and it's because of the speed of lightning. Kirin is a vastly huge attack, covering dozens of meters in diameter even before the explosion when it touches down at its target. Zetsu knows that a jutsu of huge scale is coming. Huge scale + speed of lightning = "Just as I thought... Which is why it cannot be evaded."

 

[DavidTPPM]

When a character comments that Amateraus is undodgeable, it's because it is within their experience. Amaterasu is so difficult to evade that it took the fastest Shinobi in the world with multiple speed-amps to be able to narrowly side-step it when Sasuke tried using it on him. Does that fact that just one Shinobi in the entire world manage to dodge it therefore mean that Amaterasu is actually slow as hell? No; it's still really, really difficult to dodge.

Yes; characters can teleport out of the way of the Kirin. But I think it should be pretty obvious from context that Sasuke isn't including those people in his statement. He doesn't know that technique, has never fought anyone that used it, etc.

And now you're suddenly forgetting that the main topic of discussion is Zetsus statement and not Sasukes.

It's almost like Zetsu has all the knowledge in the world when it's necessary to downgrade Kirin but the moment his knowledge would actually make it an inconsistent outlier he loses it…

Nobody who even knows how to do it perfectly is alive.

Technically not true but that's besides the point.

And yes - Itachi did block Kirin. That just means that Sasuke is wrong only because he lacked specific knowledge of the Susano'o.

And it also means Zetsu was wrong about it being impossible to evade, so using his canonically incorrect statement about it should be absurd.

Right?

That is not the same thing as statements from characters being completely unuseable.

I never even remotely implied that's the case. My point was very clearly that within Zetsus knowledge lightning should absolutely NOT be "impossible to evade", something that was proven on screen, meaning his statement is just wrong and using it over WoG statements doesn't make sense.

Because then we're taking the statement of someone who has no knowledge of Kirin in a scene where they're proven to be incorrect about it over a WoG from a statement not contradicted anywhere.

 

[Damage3245]

And it also means Zetsu was wrong about it being impossible to evade, so using his canonically incorrect statement about it should be absurd.

Zetsu being wrong about it being impossible to evade is not the same thing as him being wrong about the speed of lightning being a factor.

If a character is wrong about one thing, does that meant they're wrong about everything?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Notice that Zetsu doesn't actually say "Lightning bolts can't be dodged"?

He says it can't be evaded because the speed of lighting is 1/1000 of a second.

So yes he does. Anything like "the distance is much lesser than normal lightning" and "oh Kirin is actually much larger than regular lightning" being a deciding factor in Zetsus eyes is pure headcanon.

What he says is that he understands why Kirin can't be dodged, and it's because of the speed of lightning.

Exactly so you admit Zetsu said lightning can't be avoided and yet we know about countless characters who can avoid lightning. Nice so there shouldn't be any issues with Zetsus statement then.

Kirin is a vastly huge attack, covering dozens of meters in diameter even before the explosion when it touches down at its target. Zetsu knows that a jutsu of huge scale is coming. Huge scale + speed of lightning = "Just as I thought... Which is why it cannot be evaded."

You wanted to be strict with it so where does this huge scale come from? Zetsu ONLY mentioned speed and hasn't even seen Kirins full size as it didn't form yet.

Zetsu being wrong about it being impossible to evade is not the same thing as him being wrong about the speed of lightning being a factor.

Sure but it does greatly lower his credibility. He already didn't know anything about Kirin to begin with, and now he's canonically been wrong about it as well.

And you want us to take THAT over multiple WoG? You're taking a canonically unreliable source of information over what should be the most reliable narrator for virtually no reason.

If a character is wrong about one thing, does that meant they're wrong about everything?

No but if a character makes a false assumption about a jutsu they have never seen does that not lower their credibility?

WoG >>> statement by a character with limited knowledge >>>>>>> statement from a character with limited knowledge who has been proven to be wrong about this topic

If anything is inconsistent and/or unreliable here it's Zetsu so what reason do we actually have for taking him over everything else?

 

[Damage3245]

Exactly so you admit Zetsu said lightning can't be avoided and yet we know about countless characters who can avoid lightning. Nice so there shouldn't be any issues with Zetsus statement then.

I'm not going to respond to Straw Man arguments if you're just going to take what I'm saying and try to twist it into something else.

 

[Testarossa002]

One final pitch.

If all we had to go on were Sasuke's and Zetsu's statements about Kirin's speed, I'd gladly concede and walk away from the argument. But that's not the case.

We have two omniscient sources—the Third Databook and Second Fanbook—and an additional narrative excerpt from the Second Fanbook, all of which were supervised by Masashi Kishimoto himself. These sources aren't speculation; they’re authoritative, editorially sanctioned perspectives that reinforce the claim of Kirin moving at light speed.

Naturally, these may not be enough to outright override statements from the primary canon—but that hinges on the nature of those statements. In this case, they come from subjective in-universe characters. One of them (Zetsu) has already been shown to be unreliable in this scenario, lacking any prior knowledge of Kirin’s existence or mechanics. The other (Sasuke), while more reliable, arguably understates Kirin’s true potency

Sasuke: Yeah, I don't have any chakra left (not true. Had enough to keep the sharingan active and activate Chidori). I used it up on that fire style jutsu. But... Do you really think I would come here to kill you unprepared?
It only lasts an instant (sure). Just like the Amaterasu, it cannot be blocked or evaded (sasuke evaded amaterasu the chapter directly preceeding this). Now....you wanted it....so here it is. Your death
This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens (sure, except for one, or 4, big katons creating the justu in the first place). In short, I merely direct it power towards you (regular lightning from the heavens didn’t nuke the uchiha hideout. We see at least 4 lightning bolts hit the ground before kirin with none of the power or narrative importance) .
This jutsu is Kirin. Begone with the thunderclap.

When weighed against this, the omniscient, albeit secondary, sources deserve to be taken seriously—especially when there are multiple, consistent statements reinforcing the same conclusion.

Additionally, there are numerous examples in the primary canon that show lightning-speed attacks are not inherently unmanageable for high-tier shinobi. Zetsu’s statement, when paraphrased, essentially claims: “Lightning-speed attacks are unavoidable.” Not “They’re only unavoidable if you're 5 meters away.” That’s a critical distinction. Therefore, counter-arguments like “Kakashi might be Mach 10 and cut lightning” or “Kankuro was 20km away and dodged it” don't really hold water here.

In summary, we’re not working off a single claim or one vague line. We're dealing with a body of consistent, cross-referenced statements across multiple officially sanctioned sources—all pointing to the same conclusion.

Goodnight.

 

[BlackeJan]

Atp there’s no point in trying persuade/dissuade one another since we all have on what we agree or disagree. Just get more staff here

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

While I commend, appreciate, and respect Damage's efforts here, and even see where he's coming from on a lot of his points, I still lean ever so slightly towards the pro-OP side.

Ultimately, what it comes down to for me is that I actually believe the so-called "unreliability" of the Naruto supplementary material to be astronomically blown out of proportion.
As someone who entered this fandom and had the mantra of "the Databooks are heavily unreliable" blasted in my face for years on end, I made a point of actually going through these materials in order to determine for myself if they are reliable. And my personal assessment is that they largely are, and should be considered reliable unless proven otherwise, and NOT the other way around. This is why I've historically made liberal use of more DB statements than I could count. I wouldn't have if I thought they were largely suspect.
Of course, I ultimately agree with the sentiment that the manga takes precedence over everything else. However, in cases where certain manga-based statements have a little bit of leeway and are a bit more open to interpretation -- or have certain aspects to them that may call their legitimacy into question, as I believe is the case here -- then I don't think it's outrageous to defer to more objective WoG-type statements.
Now, if it were just one DB statement, I'd have suggested that this should get a possibly rating at best; however, with two, or arguably even three, statements, I find myself leaning towards the full proposal the OP laid out.

Don't mean to upset anyone, that's just genuinely what I believe personally.

 

[Golden_Void]

Naruto should've been FTL since Part 1 since Sasuke could track LS movements with only a 2 tomoe sharingan.


Ok, now that the bait has been successfully deployed, Sasuke is only guiding what naturally exists, artistic appearance of Kirin be damned. So are we really pushing for light speed natural lightning? Because this has far-reaching implications and contradictions.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I already commented on this in my first response to the OP.

Notice that Zetsu doesn't actually say "Lightning bolts can't be dodged"?

What he says is that he understands why Kirin can't be dodged, and it's because of the speed of lightning. Kirin is a vastly huge attack, covering dozens of meters in diameter even before the explosion when it touches down at its target. Zetsu knows that a jutsu of huge scale is coming. Huge scale + speed of lightning = "Just as I thought... Which is why it cannot be evaded."

Characters can Shunshin over dozens of meters anyways

 

[Golden_Void]

Characters can Shunshin over dozens of meters anyways

Call ninjas Clark Kent the way they can apparently leap over an entire mountain in a single bound

 

[KingTempest]

I'm equally baffled that you're "dying" on the hill of Kirin being just natural lightning when it's obviously not the case. That shit nuked a mountain instantly. With that level of potency, the entire verse would be eliminated whenever thunderstorms happen. If Kirin obviously doesn't carry the potency of a natural lightning bolt, why are we still claiming it to be just so?

It's natural lightning in it's elementation, in that the only thing it's comprised of is natural lightning, but the strength of the bolt is increased because it's a LOT of natural lightning.
Same way that the ground I stand on is just some rocks, but if I throw earth at you, it's gonna hit a lot harder than "just rocks".
I explained it a lot more here.

Konohamaru dodged CTG lightning while mid-air (no flight ability) and he's regarded as a mere jonin. I refuse to believe that Sasuke (whose base speed was already considered to be well above high tiered jonins like deidara) spent 3 years developing a trump card with "unprecedented speed" that can be dodged by Konohamaru

I don't wanna be that guy but I'm not sure he actually dodged this.

We'll just agree to disagree at this point
@KingTempest I don't think you’ve officially casted a vote here

I haven't because I'm in a place where I have a very strong stance against SOL Kirin and I don't want my borderline bias against it to end up as a vote against the OP (you). Like unless Kishi in an interview says it, it will be very hard for me to sit and say "I like this".

If I end up typing a message directly countering the OP, then you can count my vote. But until then, there's just some arguments I don't agree with, and I refuse to tip the scales with bias

 

[SlendVeny]

Agree

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I haven't because I'm in a place where I have a very strong stance against SOL Kirin and I don't want my borderline bias against it to end up as a vote against the OP (you). Like unless Kishi in an interview says it, it will be very hard for me to sit and say "I like this".

If I end up typing a message directly countering the OP, then you can count my vote. But until then, there's just some arguments I don't agree with, and I refuse to tip the scales with bias

The typa shit the term "Mrk" was coined for...Incredibol.

 

[MrTayman616]

Kakashi blocks False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7699.56512406)
Kakashi intercepts False Darkness: Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 7981.519475451894)

Do lightning style jutsu's count as lightning speed? I mean all that statement about lighting speed being fast etc but this? And it's before Sasuke and Itachi. Either it shouldn't be count as lightning speed from a jutsu, or Kirin scaling higher makes sense.

At least should be used 4000m/s from this or something like that in my opinion as seen from other magic systems use :d.

Even databook doesn't call it lightning speed but "high speed" iirc.

 

[Damage3245]

Do lightning style jutsu's count as lightning speed?

Not all of them but Kakuzu's are accepted to be.

Funnily enough even without Kirin being lightspeed, Kirin is still accepted to be faster than Kakuzu's jutsu there because we assume average lightning speed for them.

 

[SlendVeny]

Do lightning style jutsu's count as lightning speed?

False Darkness does.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not going to respond to Straw Man arguments

Could you please point out where and why exactly were all my arguments strawmans?

Because you don't have to respond to me if you don't want to but if are going to then maybe don't just throw buzzwords around. It just feels like a cheap excuse to ignore arguments you can't address.

if you're just going to take what I'm saying and try to twist it into something else.

You VERBATIM said

"he says is that he understands why Kirin can't be dodged, and it's because of the speed of lightning"

The only way this wouldn't mean lightning is unavoidable is if lightning wasn't moving at the speed of lighting to begin with. So how did I twist anything here?

 

[Damage3245]

The only way this wouldn't mean lightning is unavoidable is if lightning wasn't moving at the speed of lighting to begin with. So how did I twist anything here?

I already explained in my earlier posts. I'm not repeating myself.

Could you please point out where and why exactly were all my arguments strawmans?

Because you don't have to respond to me if you don't want to but if are going to then maybe don't just throw buzzwords around. It just feels like a cheap excuse to ignore arguments you can't address.

I have nothing further to say to you. I'll just let staff decide for the thread.