The CRT to end all CRTs: Naruto Revision (Kir-in)

[DavidTPPM]

I already explained in my earlier posts. I'm not repeating myself.

Did you now? The most I remember you saying was that Kirin was larger and closer than regular lightning but I made an argument against that (one that you ignored). Idk where did you explain how can lightning speed be unavoidable but lightning itself be avoidable.

I have nothing further to say to you. I'll just let staff decide for the thread.

 

[Samlex1234]

Why are we still debating why a hypothetical statement from Zetsu should take precedence over three Word of God statements that are meant to clarify the author’s actual intent? The OP already pointed out multiple contradictions that come from relying on Zetsu’s speculation. On top of that, they provided three separate, definitive statements this time not hypotheticals straight from the same author who wrote Zetsu’s lines in the first place. Whew.

 

[Damage3245]

Why are we still debating why a hypothetical statement from Zetsu should take precedence over three Word of God statements that are meant to clarify the author’s actual intent? The OP already pointed out multiple contradictions that come from relying on Zetsu’s speculation. On top of that, they provided three separate, definitive statements this time not hypotheticals straight from the same author who wrote Zetsu’s lines in the first place. Whew.

The previous downgrade thread had sufficient reasoning to believe that those statements are not necessarily literal (for some people at least) - which combined with context with the manga give a conclusion that it is not lightspeed. Not everyone will interpret things the same way though so i understand why supporters are in favour it, but try to see why not everyone is going to be on the same page.

 

[Samlex1234]

The previous downgrade thread had sufficient reasoning to believe that those statements are not necessarily literal (for some people at least) - which combined with context with the manga gives a conclusion that it is not lightspeed. Not everyone will interpret things the same way though so i understand why supporters are in favour it, but try to see why not everyone is going to be on the same page.

“Flash of light.”
“Speed of light.”
“Speed of light.”

Three different statements—and none of them are literal? Then what is considered literal? Oh, maybe it’s Light Fang, supposedly an undodgeable lightspeed attack… that got dodged on the same page it was used, never appeared again, and was only ever described in the “non-literal Databook”. But sure, let’s take that one literally.

How about lightning speed (Zetsu)? It’s was also stated to be undodgeable yet Sasuke never used it again against faster and stronger opponents he struggled with - Undodgeable lightning bolt speed is literal but Undodgeable Light is not literal, right? Or Mabui’s jutsu, which transports matter at the speed of light- oh wait, too fast, so it must not be literal either. Speed of sound? Also too fast to be literal?

So when Zetsu sees a jutsu he’s never seen before and casually says, “Looks like lightning and since lightning is this fast it must be this fast,” we’re supposed to treat that hypothetical remark as a speed cap? Even though the same author who wrote that also wrote three separate statements describing it as the speed of light?

So which should we take literally: a random hypothesis from a character within the story that introduces contradictions, or three direct statements from the author indicating his intent?

Omniscient Zetsu (boundless/tier 0 above Masashi Kishimoto)

 

[Golden_Void]

“Flash of light.”
“Speed of light.”
“Speed of light.”

Three different statements—and none of them are literal? Then what is considered literal? Oh, maybe it’s Light Fang, supposedly an undodgeable lightspeed attack… that got dodged on the same page it was used, never appeared again, and was only ever described in the “non-literal Databook”. But sure, let’s take that one literally.

An IRL lightning bolt can be described as a flash of light. It still isn't light speed.

How about lightning speed (Zetsu)? It’s was also stated to be undodgeable yet Sasuke never used it again against faster and stronger opponents he struggled with - Undodgeable lightning bolt speed is literal but Undodgeable Light is not literal, right?

Kirin requires specific conditions.

Or Mabui’s jutsu, which transports matter at the speed of light- oh wait, too fast, so it must not be literal either. Speed of sound? Also too fast to be literal?

Funny enough, her jutsu is called instantaneous because it happens at light speed.

Sasuke said Kirin lasts an instant, and stated that it is like amaterasu in that it cannot be blocked or evaded. Black Zetsu said amaterasu appears on the target of the user's eyesight. Sasuke outran amaterasu until it caught up with him, making him faster than both Amaterasu and, logically by his own words, Kirin. V2 Ay could dodge amaterasu, also making him faster than instant, yet is constantly under Minato's FTG which can only be instant due to it being teleportation.

Somebody's lying.

So when Zetsu sees a jutsu he’s never seen before and casually says, “Looks like lightning and since lightning is this fast it must be this fast,” we’re supposed to treat that hypothetical remark as a speed cap? Even though the same author who wrote that also wrote three separate statements describing it as the speed of light?

Is it not redirected elements from the sky? So Narutoverse lightning is light speed universally then?

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Zetsu sees lightning bolts falling from the clouds

Zetsu: looks like lightning, feels like lightning, tastes like lightning. Must be lightning speed.

Sees a lightning dragon just moments later and is dumbfounded at its power. It’s like he didn’t expect it to be this powerful and expected it to be just your average commercial lightning jutsu that shoots lightning bolts.

Very reliable indeed, we should ignore 3 WoG statements for this

 

[FinePoint]

I'm a little confused.

What exactly are the WOG statements which claim light speed?

 

[MrTayman616]

I'm a little confused.

What exactly are the WOG statements which claim light speed?

First two from this thread

First, we have this one: For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

Secondly, we have the next one: The light speed strike is unavoidable, it blows away the opponent with no time to even blink!!

The third one is this i guess

More so, looking at the atmospheric current rising, all the released black flames of “Amaterasu” were revolving around Sasuke as the center.
This jutsu is lightning down from the heavens... I merely guided that power."
When you see the flash of lightning, the thunderbolt has already struck down.
The jutsu's name is... Kirin..."

 

[FinePoint]

First two from this thread


The third one is this i guess

Thank you. And were these translations accepted by Translation Helpers?

I know that Japanese has some ambiguity with things like light and lightning.

 

[MrTayman616]

Thank you. And were these translations accepted by Translation Helpers?

I know that Japanese has some ambiguity with things like light and lightning.

Yes, they were ig.

 

[Damage3245]

Yes, they were ig.

I find it interesting that this statement is confirmed to be correctly translated as well;

(「この術は、天から降る雷... オレは、その力をサスケへと導いただけ」[Kono jutsu wa, ten kara furu kaminari... Ore wa, sono chikara o Sasuke e to michibiita dake])

=

"This jutsu is lightning down from the heavens... I merely guided that power."

Surely this explanation from the creator of the jutsu himself should carry some weight.

 

[MrTayman616]

Does the author know what light/lightning speed is?

Well my bet is still on this :d

Though i don't even think False darkness is lighting speed either, as this is what makes "kirin" special. They show it like there is supposed to be a difference between a justu and natural lightning.

Databook is clear about the light speed statements for kirin, though manga and explanation of the jutsu shows otherwise.

 

[FinePoint]

Alright, so here is my opinion:

It seems like there's statements about light speed but that the ability's lightning-theme has cast doubt over whether this is literal or just thematic since lightning obviously is connected strongly with light.

It reads to me like it's entirely plausible these statements themselves either don't understand the difference between lightning and light fully or is being liberal with the terminology for the sake of effect.

However, that is an educated guess, and I can't say for certain they don't mean it literally here.

Given the ambiguity, I would support the simple compromise of making the light speed rating a "Possibly."

 

[Damage3245]

Given the ambiguity, I would support the simple compromise of making the light speed rating a "Possibly."

I would be willing to compromise with this. I don't have a lot of faith in those databook statements but they do exist - so if a Possibly rating is the best option, then I can go along with that.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Well my bet is still on this :d

Worlds worst argument ever constructed. Like unironically what do you want, Naruto supporters to go ask Kishimoto if he knows middle school physics?

Though i don't even think False darkness is lighting speed either, as this is what makes "kirin" special. They show it like there is supposed to be a difference between a justu and natural lightning.

Kirin isn't special because it moves at the speed of lightning but because it requires essentially no chakra to use and just uses natural clouds.

(「この術は、天から降る雷... オレは、その力をサスケへと導いただけ」[Kono jutsu wa, ten kara furu kaminari... Ore wa, sono chikara o Sasuke e to michibiita dake])

=

"This jutsu is lightning down from the heavens... I merely guided that power."

Surely this explanation from the creator of the jutsu himself should carry some weight.

Lightning doesn't have a constant speed. And while it's true Sasuke only guides it, he doesn't just guide 1 lightning bolt. Kirin has power over 20 billion times greater than natural lightning.

So if Sasuke "merely guiding it" doesn't stop it from being dozens of billions of times stronger I don't think it should stop it from being a couple hundred times faster either.

 

[LordTracer]

Having read through the recent arguments, I’m still in full agreement with the OP.

 

[KingTempest]

It’s only massively stronger because the heat used to form the clouds is hot as hell. Not cause of him guiding it to be strong

 

[Damage3245]

It’s only massively stronger because the heat used to form the clouds is hot as hell. Not cause of him guiding it to be strong

What do you think of FinePoint's suggestion to treat it as a Possibly rating?

 

[MrTayman616]

Worlds worst argument ever constructed. Like unironically what do you want, Naruto supporters to go ask Kishimoto if he knows middle school physics?

I'm not serious about it lmao. He was even giving a timeframe in the manga, how would he not know.

Kirin isn't special because it moves at the speed of lightning but because it requires essentially no chakra to use and just uses natural clouds.

"it requires essentially no chakra to use" Not what i meant but it being "can't be evaded" stated by Sasuke. Makes me think two things, either kirin is faster than a lightning, or lightning style jutsu's can't compare to real lightning's speed.

Databook fully supports light speed. I'm fine with it as well.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not serious about it lmao.

Idk man, I can never know with you

"it requires essentially no chakra to use" Not what i meant but it being "can't be evaded" stated by Sasuke. Makes me think two things, either kirin is faster than a lightning, or lightning style jutsu's can't compare to real lightning's speed.

And what do you think is more likely? On one hand you have lore like Kakashis chidori and countless lightning techniques that act like real lightning while being far stronger than real lightning and on the other hand you have a nearly baseless assumption.

I think it should be a lot more likely that Kirin is just faster than regular lightning

 

[Samlex1234]

Alright, so here is my opinion:

It seems like there's statements about light speed but that the ability's lightning-theme has cast doubt over whether this is literal or just thematic since lightning obviously is connected strongly with light.

It reads to me like it's entirely plausible these statements themselves either don't understand the difference between lightning and light fully or is being liberal with the terminology for the sake of effect.

However, that is an educated guess, and I can't say for certain they don't mean it literally here.

Given the ambiguity, I would support the simple compromise of making the light speed rating a "Possibly."

If we accept the notion that Kishimoto truly doesn’t understand the physical terminology he uses (confusing a “flash of light” with a lightning bolt) the implications go far beyond just Kirin. Techniques like Mabui’s teleportation jutsu, Light Fang, and Haku’s Demonic Ice Mirrors would all fall under the same scrutiny. And for what? A natural lightning bolt, manually guided with a chakra-infused arm, that at best yields mountain-level energy?

 

[KingTempest]

Light fang follows criteria and it’s literally a beam of light.
Haku world through reflections which actually move at the speed of light.
Mabui’s moves you so fast you shit yourself and it doesn’t have any contradicted statements.

What do you think of FinePoint's suggestion to treat it as a Possibly rating?

I’m not against it

 

[FinePoint]

If we accept the notion that Kishimoto truly doesn’t understand the physical terminology he uses (confusing a “flash of light” with a lightning bolt) the implications go far beyond just Kirin. Techniques like Mabui’s teleportation jutsu, Light Fang, and Haku’s Demonic Ice Mirrors would all fall under the same scrutiny. And for what? A natural lightning bolt, manually guided with a chakra-infused arm, that at best yields mountain-level energy?

Well, a lot of people refer to the light itself as the lightning, so I think it goes beyond not understanding and more towards there being some nuance in how people in general refer to lightning. I find it most likely that they're simply being loose with the language, rather than them not understanding the difference between electrons and photons, for example.

 

[Samlex1234]

Light fang follows criteria and it’s literally a beam of light.
Haku world through reflections which actually move at the speed of light.
Mabui’s moves you so fast you shit yourself and it doesn’t have any contradicted statements.

All of this only makes sense if we consider the author a credible source on the physics-related terminology he uses. Light Fang, for example, was never stated to be lightspeed in the manga that came from the databook. In fact, Kirin is arguably the only instance where a statement is directly contradicted by multiple feats in the show, assuming we follow the hypothetical deduction from Zetsu.

So my core question is this: does the author actually understand what the speed of light is or not? If he does, then Kirin being lightspeed remains valid. But if not, then we’re forced to question every statement he’s ever made about lightspeed and other scientific concepts throughout the series.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

"This jutsu is lightning"

Surely this explanation from the creator of the jutsu himself should carry some weight.

we dont accept calling something light to be enough evidence for something to be light speed and that is why concrete and more explicit things like speed of light are required to get something accepted as light speed, for the same reasons we don't need to assume just because it is a lightning it will only be lightning speed or that it's hard capped at lightning, it does not even conflict with the actual speed statements either

lightning in fiction (if supernatural in nature) is allowed to be ftl, mftl, immeasurable speed based on their feats / statements either from the source material or from feats against other characters

---

though manga and explanation of the jutsu shows otherwise.

not a single thing in the manga remotely conflicts with anything the manga says

I can say "most men of x company generally earn 500K per month so be aware of mr. Y as you're trying to flex against him" and then the story can later reveal said man to earn 1 trillion per month, there's no contradictions, it's simply laying the world-building foundations for what lowballed value is to be applied to the general characters/things of a specific category in the absence of greater, more explicit information

---

It reads to me like it's entirely plausible these statements themselves either don't understand the difference between lightning and light fully or is being liberal with the terminology for the sake of effect.

brother, Kishimoto of all people knows what he's talking about, he is a powerscaler author, he's written this series with this typa wank and this and this and this and this
he's also taken his main inspiration from this, he doesnt often dive into super explicit stuff within the story of naruto unlike S8 because it breaks the narrative flow that he's established for his world, the databooks don't have this issue so he's able to freely dump light speed statements several times to his desire, the idea that he's not aware of the scaling arguments that he repeatedly puts out is just blatantly untrue

Well, a lot of people refer to the light itself as the lightning

this never happens in the naruto series (outside obvious similes) kishimoto never confuses the two terms and he's attributed light speed towards light beams as well (he's also added photon guns being used into one of his novels so we know he's fully aware of them and what they entail)

 

[FinePoint]

brother, Kishimoto of all people knows what he's talking about, he is a powerscaler author

I do not doubt that. I listed two possibilities. My apologies for not making it clear that I thought the first one was far less likely than the latter.

this never happens in the naruto series (outside obvious similes) kishimoto never confuses the two terms and he's attributed light speed towards light beams as well (he's also added photon guns being used into one of his novels so we know he's fully aware of them and what they entail)

What obvious similes are you talking about?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I do not doubt that. I listed two possibilities. My apologies for not making it clear that I thought the first one was far less likely than the latter.

no worries

What obvious similes are you talking about?

some statements in general battle shonen media including naruto sometimes tend to say "x is fast like light" or "y moves at light like speeds" or "temari can blow the world away" which we ignore for being similes/hyperboles/flowery language
granted I don't actually recall any light speed smile ever being used when talking about lightning attacks but the point I was trying to convey is as far as descriptions containing explicit speed statements are concerned there is no such case of the writer confusing the two numeric terms

 

[FinePoint]

some statements in general battle shonen media including naruto sometimes tend to say "x is fast like light" or "y moves at light like speeds" or "temari can blow the world away" which we ignore for being similes/hyperboles/flowery language
granted I don't actually recall any light speed smile ever being used when talking about lightning attacks but the point I was trying to convey is as far as descriptions containing explicit speed statements are concerned there is no such case of the writer confusing the two numeric terms

Well for practical purposes a possibly rating will still allow the stats to be used in versus matches, it's mostly just a recognition that we're not certain (and someone could optionally use the lower rating as well).

So even if I'm slightly leaning towards it being more likely that they meant what they said, I'm willing to admit there's at least enough doubt that a possibly is appropriate.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Well for practical purposes a possibly rating will still allow the stats to be used in versus matches, it's mostly just a recognition that we're not certain (and someone could optionally use the lower rating as well).

So even if I'm slightly leaning towards it being more likely that they meant what they said, I'm willing to admit there's at least enough doubt that a possibly is appropriate.

May I know why you feel there is uncertainty in believing it is light speed? I haven't really kept up with the thread and I'm definitely not accusing you of anything but I can't help but feel like taking this stance after seeing 3 statements repeatedly reinforcing the same idea bleeds a bit into ignorance, as though the writer cannot have SOL entities in his own fiction no matter how many times he clarifies that they are on that level


I'd understand scrutinizing if let's say an attack was just called light and resembled light, you wouldn't have really conclusive information for it being light speed but WOG statements are pretty straightforward and consistent.

 

[KingTempest]

Kishi be calling ninja lightspeed before he even calls em ninja

 

[FinePoint]

May I know why you feel there is uncertainty in believing it is light speed? I haven't really kept up with the thread and I'm definitely not accusing you of anything but I can't help but feel like taking this stance after seeing 3 statements repeatedly reinforcing the same idea bleeds a bit into ignorance, as though the writer cannot have SOL entities in his own fiction no matter how many times he clarifies that they are on that level


I'd understand scrutinizing if let's say an attack was just called light and resembled light, you wouldn't have really conclusive information for it being light speed but WOG statements are pretty straightforward and consistent.

Well, I'm not a Naruto fan, so I can't speak to general trends.

Based on this thread, my understanding is that there's in-universe statements about it being lightning, and WOG statements about it being light.

The reliability of the former has been called into question, and the latter I inherently question just because lightning and light are so similar in concept and nomenclature when talking about speed, as well as being less trusting of WOG in general.

 

[ssgengar]

Kishi be calling ninja lightspeed before he even calls em ninja

I see no issues here

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Well, I'm not a Naruto fan, so I can't speak to general trends.

Based on this thread, my understanding is that there's in-universe statements about it being lightning, and WOG statements about it being light.

The reliability of the former has been called into question, and the latter I inherently question just because lightning and light are so similar in concept and nomenclature when talking about speed, as well as being less trusting of WOG in general.

I see, that's fine I'd like to point out that this is what Kirin looks like

I think based on visual appearance we can deduce something easily that natural lightning don't really take the shape of a chinese style dragon or ROARS on screen like a demonic beast at all, to argue something like this is just lightning that occurs naturally in our day to day lives is just flat out wrong

is it called lightning? yes but I don't believe the nature of an entity determines its final stats, it's called a type of lightning because it employs the power of electric booms, when we think about some marvel/DC characters that are 1A, we don't look at ones that utilize lightning based attacking styles and say "yeah you fought outerversal beings before but you use lightning based attacks for your offence therefore you cannot be immeasurable speed and are capped at lightning speed" it's just a fallacious method of equating the property of a supernatural attack to it's statistics when those have never been remotely implied to be indicative of their stats

so it's not really a defeater of anything, as for the manga, it doesn't even list a speed for Kirin or even try to argue it's lightning speed, it gives a timeframe and I think I best explain that here, the WOG statements would only come into conflict if we were to have 1 lightning speed statement and 5 light speed statements and that doesn't even happen here, all the speed statements just say light speed and nothing else.

Since I've already explained on Kishimoto's nature of powerscaling and his understanding of photons and light speeds I won't elaborate more on that

 

[FinePoint]

is it called lightning? yes but I don't believe the nature of an entity determines its final stats

It's my understanding that they specifically referred to it as going at the speed of lightning.

Zetsu: Just as I thought. Which is why it can not be evaded. The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second. It's faster than sound.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's my understanding that they specifically referred to it as going at the speed of lightning.

he had no knowledge of what Kirin is and he said this before he ever saw kirin, he only had seen enough to deduce lightning is being summoned from the clouds, he presumed it was natural lightning and that's what he made the statement for, it's an okay statement to gauge the speed of lightning within the narutoverse because he would be knowledgeable on natural occurrences but Kirin isn't something he's ever seen



I'd like to reiterate the analogy I used earlier

I can say "most men of x company generally earn 500K per month so be aware of mr. Y as you're trying to flex against him" and then the story can later reveal said man to earn 1 trillion per month, there's no contradictions, it's simply laying the world-building foundations for what lowballed value is to be applied to the general characters/things of a specific category in the absence of greater, more explicit information

I'd like to remind this isn't a speed statement but a timeframe statement and in the perspective of an author I believe listing the timeframe of traditional lightning in the verse would help to gauge actual lightning feats that the characters have, in where those feats have the lightning strongly represent the properties of real lightning which resulted in the wiki accepting them as lightning speed for calculation purposes strongly for years. Unlike those, Kirin explicitly violates the properties of lightning and is given statements of being much higher than lightning speed as such it should not be confused to be on the same level

 

[FinePoint]

Snip

I see. Given this additional context, I think light speed is probably fine then, and my vote can be considered to have changed to that.

However, if there remains contention, I'm still okay with a possibly rating as a compromise.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I see. Given this additional context, I think light speed is probably fine then, and my vote can be considered to have changed to that.

However, if there remains contention, I'm still okay with a possibly rating as a compromise.

Awesome!

 

[KingTempest]

Bro why does him guiding it disqualify it from being natural lightning?????

If I change the shape of some dirt is it not natural dirt no more?

How do we use the Databook for “its lightspeed” but not for “its reshaped natural lightning”

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

How do we use the Databook for “its lightspeed” but not for “its reshaped natural lightning”

A very good question.

 

[KLOL506]

Bro why does him guiding it disqualify it from being natural lightning?????

If I change the shape of some dirt is it not natural dirt no more?

How do we use the Databook for “its lightspeed” but not for “its reshaped natural lightning”

Something something standards, they did something similar with bottled lightning for the Witcher Netflix series.