Pokemon: Minor Creation Trio Hax Upgrade

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What the title says. The arguments for this is literally going off of what's already accepted for the CT on their pages, and just adding in somethings that they should have based off of what's currently accepted.

So on all of the Creation Trio's pages, all three of them currently have Conceptual Manipulation for the following justifications:

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Was about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

This is also apart of both Dialga and Palkia's AP justifications:

Like Palkia, it was about to completely reset all the reality, which is made of an untold to likely an infinite number of universes, from destroying the concept of spirit.

And as for Giratina, he has Limited Power Nullification & Immortality (true form) for these reasons:

Limited Power Nullification and Immortality (Type 8; Is the Distortion World itself, which has the role of maintaining the balance between time and space and corrects all imbalances in the cosmology that could threaten it, which also applies to attacks)

Long story short, all of the Creation Trio have Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation as their powers are capable of destroying and resetting all of reality without the concept of spirit made up from the Lake Trio, effectively being able to destroy it. And alternatively, TF Giratina has Power Nullification as the distortion world holds the responsibility of maintaining balance within the entirety of the Pokemon Cosmology. Any imbalances that happen get corrected and fixed by the distortion world, so that the balance between time and space is maintained, and the world is kept in existence. And as we see in the clips, this also applies to attacks, as Dialga and Palkia's Alamos Town battle had the damage of their attacks suppressed by the distortion world.

So, where am I going with this?

First, Giratina. Based on the role Giratina plays in the cosmology, not only should the Power Nullification no longer be "limited', but it should be upgraded to operate on a Conceptual level. We already acknowledge that all of the Creation Trio can destroy the Lake Trio's concept of spirit upon destroying everything. And as im sure we all know, Giratina prevented the destruction of existence when Cyrus tried using Dialga and Palkia to unmake everything, because of the Distortion World keeping all of existence maintained. That means, not only did Giratina prevent all of realities destruction, but he also stopped the concept of spirit from being destroyed. Case end point, he blocked conceptual destruction from happening.

So the Power Nullification should be bumped to Conceptual Power Nullification.

Secondly, Dialga and Palkia. Since we acknowledge that their powers could destroy the concept of spirit upon destroying the cosmology, then we're also acknowledging that their attacks can destroy things on a conceptual level too. And both of them, when fighting each other, slam each other with these very same powers and attacks that are used to destroy both the cosmology and the concept of spirit along with it. Because of that, I believe Dialga, Palkia, (and Giratina by sheer extension) should get Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation.

And of course, if nothing else, this should all go to Arceus by extension for obvious reasons.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Seems simple enough. I agree.

 

[AsterReal]

I agree.

 

[FinePoint]

This is probably fine.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Was about to entirely reshape the world in a new one from destroying the concept of spirit)

And as im sure we all know, Giratina prevented the destruction of existence when Cyrus tried using Dialga and Palkia to unmake everything, because of the Distortion World keeping all of existence maintained. That means, not only did Giratina prevent all of realities destruction, but he also stopped the concept of spirit from being destroyed. Case end point, he blocked conceptual destruction from happening.
Secondly, Dialga and Palkia. Since we acknowledge that their powers could destroy the concept of spirit upon destroying the cosmology, then we're also acknowledging that their attacks can destroy things on a conceptual level too. And both of them, when fighting each other, slam each other with these very same powers and attacks that are used to destroy both the cosmology and the concept of spirit along with it. Because of that, I believe Dialga, Palkia, (and Giratina by sheer extension) should get Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation.

I feel like this shouldn't be CM type 1. Dialga and Palkia achieve this by destroying everything in existence, not by directly manipulating the concept of spirit. If someone were to blow up the whole universe, all humans would die, and this would by extension wipe out the human spirit. No conceptual manipulation is required to do that

The distortion world's power null should stay at limited even if it is conceptual. The distortion world's purpose is to repair damages in space-time that occur specifically in the real world. Giratina is only able to "power null" damage done to the real world, it isn't able to repair anything if there's no damage done to objects in the Pokemon universe. It repaired the damage done by Dialga and Palkia because they were distorting space-time with their attacks

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I feel like this shouldn't be CM type 1. Dialga and Palkia achieve this by destroying everything in existence, not by directly manipulating the concept of spirit. If someone were to blow up the whole universe, all humans would die, and this would by extension wipe out the human spirit. No conceptual manipulation is required to do that

Im fairly certain them remaking existence without the concept of spirit would, however, be directly manipulating the concept, as to why that was accepted as CM T1. It's not just destroying existence that is part of the feat, but remaking the whole cosmology without spirit, as that was Cyrus's goal. Regarding destroying the universe(s), that wouldn't work as people can exist on a mental level in the verse (even inside the distortion world). Not only does consciousness dictate the metaphysical aspect of existence in Pokemon, but the lake trio being around would still mean spirit exists, so simply making all humans/living beings in the universe die (and others, like Deoxys, or say, Ultra Beasts) wouldn't be enough to eradicate spirit as a whole.

The distortion world's power null should stay at limited even if it is conceptual. The distortion world's purpose is to repair damages in space-time that occur specifically in the real world. Giratina is only able to "power null" damage done to the real world, it isn't able to repair anything if there's no damage done to objects in the Pokemon universe. It repaired the damage done by Dialga and Palkia because they were distorting space-time with their attacks

The problem however is that this isn't just limited to attacks or damages done in the outer cosmology. It would go for any kind of imbalance.

Firstly, it can restore damages that were caused by things inside the distortion world. Such as, for instance, the glacier Zero made move by destroying its support inside the distortion world and Giratina restoring it. But more importantly, during that scene in particular, we are able to see that the Distortion World fixes imbalances, even ones caused independently from Dialga/Palkia, proven by the fact that we still see those toxic clouds formed in the distortion world on a normal basis.

In addition, if it can suppress and repair the damages from the effects of Dialga and Palkia fighting, such as time and space being violently distorted and restoring it to their proper balanced state, or things like existence getting erased (Alamos Town & the dimension it was floating in) and concepts being unmade, it doesn't sound like it should be limited.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Im fairly certain them remaking existence without the concept of spirit would, however, be directly manipulating the concept, as to why that was accepted as CM T1. It's not just destroying existence that is part of the feat, but remaking the whole cosmology without spirit, as that was Cyrus's goal.

Recreating a universe without spirit is also not conceptual manipulation? You don't need to manipulate the concept of spirit to not recreate the human spirit when remaking a universe

Regarding destroying the universe(s), that wouldn't work as people can exist on a mental level in the verse (even inside the distortion world).

What does this mean

Not only does consciousness dictate the metaphysical aspect of existence in Pokemon, but the lake trio being around would still mean spirit exists, so simply making all humans/living beings in the universe die (and others, like Deoxys, or say, Ultra Beasts) wouldn't be enough to eradicate spirit as a whole.

How do you know the Lake Trio would be around? If his plan is to destroy spirit, it would be pretty obvious that the Pokemon who embody spirit would disappear as well

Firstly, it can restore damages that were caused by things inside the distortion world. Such as, for instance, the glacier Zero made move by destroying its support inside the distortion world and Giratina restoring it. But more importantly, during that scene in particular, we are able to see that the Distortion World fixes imbalances, even ones caused independently from Dialga/Palkia, proven by the fact that we still see those toxic clouds formed in the distortion world on a normal basis.

This is true, so Giratina can only repair damage done to the distortion world and to the Pokemon world that exists on the opposite side of it

In addition, if it can suppress and repair the damages from the effects of Dialga and Palkia fighting, such as time and space being violently distorted and restoring it to their proper balanced state, or things like existence getting erased (Alamos Town & the dimension it was floating in) and concepts being unmade, it doesn't sound like it should be limited.

The fact that it can only repair damage done to the Pokemon universe and its distortion world seems like a limitation to me

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Recreating a universe without spirit is also not conceptual manipulation? You don't need to manipulate the concept of spirit to not recreate the human spirit when remaking a universe

You're missing my point. Cyrus was aiming to use Dialga/Palkia to destroy the cosmology AND Spirit, and remake everything without any spirit at all. That would be conceptual manipulation as they would be erasing the concept of spirit entirely and it wouldn't exist whatsoever.

What does this mean

It means beings inside the verse can exist as consciousness, even if they don't have physical bodies anymore. In other words, say the universe gets destroyed and humans die. Those humans minds can still exist as pure consciousness, so killing them wouldn't destroy their minds, aka spirit.

How do you know the Lake Trio would be around? If his plan is to destroy spirit, it would be pretty obvious that the Pokemon who embody spirit would disappear as well.

This is in regards to your "kill all humans" comment.

This is true, so Giratina can only repair damage done to the distortion world and to the Pokemon world that exists on the opposite side of it

The fact that it can only repair damage done to the Pokemon universe and its distortion world seems like a limitation to me

Thats not how "Limited" here works. Abilities working in a limited way would be something like they can only effect something to a certain extent (Ex: power null only negating energy or strength based attacks, rather than abilities).

The location on which they're used, which would obviously be inside the characters own universe, doesn't mean that would be limited. A better reason for the limitation should be brought forth then.

 

[Hypertornado099]

You're missing my point. Cyrus was aiming to use Dialga/Palkia to destroy the cosmology AND Spirit, and remake everything without any spirit at all. That would be conceptual manipulation as they would be erasing the concept of spirit entirely and it wouldn't exist whatsoever.

It means beings inside the verse can exist as consciousness, even if they don't have physical bodies anymore. In other words, say the universe gets destroyed and humans die. Those humans minds can still exist as pure consciousness, so killing them wouldn't destroy their minds, aka spirit.

The thing is destroying spirit doesn't necessarily make it conceptual. That could just be mental/spiritual destruction. A character who erases all minds in the universe for example wouldn't get conceptual mind manipulation, even though that would cause all human emotions to disappear

Also, it wouldn't matter if beings in the verse can exist as consciousness. If space-time as a whole is nuked, spirits and disembodied consciousnesses would be destroyed too

Thats not how "Limited" here works. Abilities working in a limited way would be something like they can only effect something to a certain extent (Ex: power null only negating energy or strength based attacks, rather than abilities).

The location on which they're used, which would obviously be inside the characters own universe, doesn't mean that would be limited. A better reason for the limitation should be brought forth then.

"Only able to nullify attacks if they have caused damage to the Pokemon universe and distortion world" sounds like a limit though.

 

[FinePoint]

For the record, I was also a little skeptical about it being Type 1 instead of Type 2, but since it was already accepted I didn't address it.

 

[Deonment]

Also, it wouldn't matter if beings in the verse can exist as consciousness. If space-time as a whole is nuked, spirits and disembodied consciousnesses would be destroyed too

No? The Heart is very much non-corporeal and metaphysical, and as such wouldn't be affected by the very physical destruction of time and space.
Hell if we really want to I can bring up how all Heart as a whole originates from and as its core is the Original Spirit, and as such very, very much predates and would be fine if Dialga and Palkia bought it, let alone if space and time were destroyed.

The thing is destroying spirit doesn't necessarily make it conceptual. That could just be mental/spiritual destruction. A character who erases all minds in the universe for example wouldn't get conceptual mind manipulation, even though that would cause all human emotions to disappear

The issue here is that the concept of Heart quite literally predates the emergence of the Heart in human and pokemon, with the Lake trio not only directly granting their aspects, but directly "praying" to bring Heart into existence. So it would make no sense for the destruction of the universe/all life to actually affect the concept of Heart (which directly predates and is superior to the concepts that the Lake Trio brought into existence) without also directly destroying all Heart, in addition to the fact that he would specifically be recreating the universe without Heart at all, which is a natural part of existence (and is entwined with Space and Time to begin with).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No? The Heart is very much non-corporeal and metaphysical, and as such wouldn't be affected by the very physical destruction of time and space.
Hell if we really want to I can bring up how all Heart as a whole originates from and as its core is the Original Spirit, and as such very, very much predates and would be fine if Dialga and Palkia bought it, let alone if space and time were destroyed.

The issue here is that the concept of Heart quite literally predates the emergence of the Heart in human and pokemon, with the Lake trio not only directly granting their aspects, but directly "praying" to bring Heart into existence. So it would make no sense for the destruction of the universe/all life to actually affect the concept of Heart (which directly predates and is superior to the concepts that the Lake Trio brought into existence) without also directly destroying all Heart, in addition to the fact that he would specifically be recreating the universe without Heart at all, which is a natural part of existence (and is entwined with Space and Time to begin with).

^This. Since the Lake Trio, who predate any aspects of existence, are the ones who brought forth Spirit into the cosmology for people, Pokemon and all beings, the concept of spirit predates everything and is an independent concept. So ridding the world of Spirit and destroying it wouldn't be possible at all without Dialga and Palkia fundamentally affecting how the independent concept itself applies to the world. Aka, conceptual manipulation.

 

[Hypertornado099]

^This. Since the Lake Trio, who predate any aspects of existence, are the ones who brought forth Spirit into the cosmology for people, Pokemon and all beings, the concept of spirit predates everything and is an independent concept. So ridding the world of Spirit and destroying it wouldn't be possible at all without Dialga and Palkia fundamentally affecting how the independent concept itself applies to the world. Aka, conceptual manipulation.

I mean, couldn't that be achieved by destroying the Lake Trio, which wouldn't require conceptual manipulation?

 

[Deonment]

I mean, couldn't that be achieved by destroying the Lake Trio, which wouldn't require conceptual manipulation?

That would actually be concept manip anyways, if they destroy the true form of the Lake Trio, as they are literally also concepts in of themselves (or at least are currently accepted to be as such, and so any arguments against such should be made in their own thread)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That would actually be concept manip anyways, if they destroy the true form of the Lake Trio, as they are literally also concepts in of themselves (or at least are currently accepted to be as such, and so any arguments against such should be made in their own thread)

Plus, Cyrus's plan didn't include specifically targeting the Lake Trio, who can presumably survive the destruction of the cosmology anyway (since they can negate one of the CT from doing what they want and they were surviving their destruction IIRC).

So the only way he could create a world without Spirit would be for Dialga/Palkia to directly target the concept of spirit itself and how it applies to everything in the cosmology.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump

 

[Deonment]

Actually, now that I reread the OP, I have some disagreements, but firstly, I do think that yeah the power null shouldn't be limited anymore
I don't think the Distortion World power null should be conceptual, entirely because Cyrus never actually gets the chance to create his new world, or to fully destroy the one one, the closest he gets to it is in Diamond and Pearl (at least to my memory, but the anime/manga may contradict me here), where he actively starts distorting the time/space of the world and creating his new one, but gets interrupted by the Lake Trio, in Platinum he doesn't even get the chance to start creating his world because he monologues like crazy, and then gets snatched by Giratina, and the same can be said about his USUM version too, though this in specific I can understand disagreeing with, but I think the entire situation is a bit strange since the Lake Trio don't seem to have interfered (since they aren't on his team and he explicitly stated he would capture them).
Now then, I think its kinda a stretch to say that Dialga and Palkia have conceptual attacks off what you provided. In particular, this very much doesn't seem to apply to their normal attacks (see the Darkrai movie), and only to when they decide to go reset the cosmology, which while it does scale to them and their AP, shouldn't scale to their hax for a simliar reason as to why we don't give like, an RPG character's basic attacks elemental effects for being able to cast spells, the two are distinct actions they can take, and while there can be cross scaling between them AP wise, that doesn't mean the same for it Hax wise. (I'm probably explaining this poorly I realize)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Apologies for being quite late on responding to this, I procrastinated like crazy and put this off for a little while. But alas

I don't think the Distortion World power null should be conceptual, entirely because Cyrus never actually gets the chance to create his new world, or to fully destroy the one one, the closest he gets to it is in Diamond and Pearl (at least to my memory, but the anime/manga may contradict me here), where he actively starts distorting the time/space of the world and creating his new one, but gets interrupted by the Lake Trio, in Platinum he doesn't even get the chance to start creating his world because he monologues like crazy, and then gets snatched by Giratina, and the same can be said about his USUM version too, though this in specific I can understand disagreeing with, but I think the entire situation is a bit strange since the Lake Trio don't seem to have interfered (since they aren't on his team and he explicitly stated he would capture them).

In fairness, you could argue that Giratina in Platinum saw the writing on the wall on what was about to happen and just stepped in to capture Cyrus before he even makes the attempt at destroying the world. Plus, Cyrus later on when the protagonist enters the distortion world does give the explanation about how the distortion world keeps everything in existence, which would coincide with Dialga and Palkia's feat of destroying everything + Spirit and why making Cyrus's world wouldn't have succeeded.

That said, we do see Cyrus going forth with the destruction in Adventures and it ends up with a portal to the distortion world opening, signifying Giratina's realm negating the destruction of existence as per its role.

Now then, I think its kinda a stretch to say that Dialga and Palkia have conceptual attacks off what you provided. In particular, this very much doesn't seem to apply to their normal attacks (see the Darkrai movie), and only to when they decide to go reset the cosmology, which while it does scale to them and their AP, shouldn't scale to their hax for a simliar reason as to why we don't give like, an RPG character's basic attacks elemental effects for being able to cast spells, the two are distinct actions they can take, and while there can be cross scaling between them AP wise, that doesn't mean the same for it Hax wise. (I'm probably explaining this poorly I realize)

No I understand what you're saying. The thing is, however, is that we acknowledge that Dialga and Palkia can nuke & reset the cosmology, and unmake spirit, with their AP. So the way it's framed here is that their ordinary AP has a conceptual erasure component to it for being able to reset everything. While it is true that AP and hax normally don't have a correlation to one another, I believe in this particular case with Dialga and Palkia, that can be argued, and theres a few reasons for that.

In the anime, we do see Dialga and Palkia's regular attacks having erasure properties to it. Since you mentioned the Darkrai movie, we can use that as an example. Their every attacks, even basic ones like hyper beam and aura sphere, caused effects like space-time shockwaves & Alamos Town and the Unown dimension being erased from existence. This already demonstrates a hax component to all of their attacks.

Going deeper, as revealed in the Giratina movie, Dialga and Palkia's every attack required the distortion world to interfere as a buffer to maintain the balance of time and space to keep existence maintained, so all of what we saw from them in Rise of Darkrai were suppressed effects from the Giratina's dimension doing its job of interfering.

And as another addition, when Cyrus in the anime used them to create his world, while also simultaneously destroying the old world, Dialga and Palkia used energy beams as the means, further suggesting that their own energy (which obviously gets applied to their attacks) has the haxy component of nuking all of existence, including the concept of spirit that Cyrus wanted completely gone above everything else.

 

[Deonment]

In fairness, you could argue that Giratina in Platinum saw the writing on the wall on what was about to happen and just stepped in to capture Cyrus before he even makes the attempt at destroying the world. Plus, Cyrus later on when the protagonist enters the distortion world does give the explanation about how the distortion world keeps everything in existence, which would coincide with Dialga and Palkia's feat of destroying everything + Spirit and why making Cyrus's world wouldn't have succeeded.

Yeah, though my main thing there is that he genuinely never gets the chance to do the thing in those cases, though in the case of Platinum given the contexts of the game itself, it seems more like the balancing he's talking about there is Giratina showing up and grabbing his ass, but given later context it can be interpreted otherwise

That said, we do see Cyrus going forth with the destruction in Adventures and it ends up with a portal to the distortion world opening, signifying Giratina's realm negating the destruction of existence as per its role.

Huh, fair enough I guess though that is a bit scuffed imo seeing as how we are directly told/shown that the way it balances the world is through the creation of the "clouds" in the distortion world, so a portal is a bit scuffed

No I understand what you're saying. The thing is, however, is that we acknowledge that Dialga and Palkia can nuke & reset the cosmology, and unmake spirit, with their AP. So the way it's framed here is that their ordinary AP has a conceptual erasure component to it for being able to reset everything.

Not all instances of AP stuff is the same is the issue, someone can have Low 2-C AP off erasing the timeline but also shaking the timeline with their attacks, but we wouldn't say a character who can do both will get EE of their attacks, and that the same thing here (though I do notice that we for some reason don't give the sustaining feats to the pokemon despite them being given about the "avatars" but ech)

In the anime, we do see Dialga and Palkia's regular attacks having erasure properties to it. Since you mentioned the Darkrai movie, we can use that as an example. Their every attacks, even basic ones like hyper beam and aura sphere, caused effects like space-time shockwaves & Alamos Town and the Unown dimension being erased from existence. This already demonstrates a hax component to all of their attacks.

Yeah sure, I'm fine off that (though for Alamos in specific, its directly stated that the town itself is just being sent into another dimension than actually EE'd), but that's EE

Going deeper, as revealed in the Giratina movie, Dialga and Palkia's every attack required the distortion world to interfere as a buffer to maintain the balance of time and space to keep existence maintained, so all of what we saw from them in Rise of Darkrai were suppressed effects from the Giratina's dimension doing its job of interfering.

Yes, but that would be included in Giratina's domain even without the concept part of the EE, unless you are arguing they have EE on the concepts of space and time, which is scuffed

And as another addition, when Cyrus in the anime used them to create his world, while also simultaneously destroying the old world, Dialga and Palkia used energy beams as the means, further suggesting that their own energy (which obviously gets applied to their attacks) has the haxy component of nuking all of existence, including the concept of spirit that Cyrus wanted completely gone above everything else.

I don't actually remember them trying to destroy the (current) world actually, so a scan for that would be nice
But either way, they destroy the world they created for Cyrus yeah, but that wouldn't actually mean much by itself bar just EE, seeing as the world wouldn't have its own concepts of space and time (seeing as those are the True Forms, unless you want to argue Time is conceptual, which you could, but I personally wouldn't), and the concept of Spirit is one spread across the Multiverse, so it isn't like the Dialga and Palkia could have made a universe without it without first or after destroying spirit.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, though my main thing there is that he genuinely never gets the chance to do the thing in those cases, though in the case of Platinum given the contexts of the game itself, it seems more like the balancing he's talking about there is Giratina showing up and grabbing his ass, but given later context it can be interpreted otherwise

Maybe this is a better thing to point out then-


When Cyrus talks to us about Giratina and the role it plays with the 2 worlds, he does admit that he wouldn’t be able to create the world he desires without spirit, and revert existence to it’s original state, until Giratina and the distortion world are gone, as Giratina would just continue to interfere.

Perhaps this would be better to say Giratina would’ve nulled the attempt at destroying Spirit regardless?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Maybe this is a better thing to point out then-


When Cyrus talks to us about Giratina and the role it plays with the 2 worlds, he does admit that he wouldn’t be able to create the world he desires without spirit, and revert existence to it’s original state, until Giratina and the distortion world are gone, as Giratina would just continue to interfere.

Perhaps this would be better to say Giratina would’ve nulled the attempt at destroying Spirit regardless?

You could also argue this means Giratina would have just beaten Dialga and Palkia's asses since he's consistently shown to upscale them individually as shown by his much better performance against Arceus than they had and the fact that he literally fights them 2v1 in that one animated thing.

 

[Deonment]

Snip

You could also argue this means Giratina would have just beaten Dialga and Palkia's asses since he's consistently shown to upscale them individually as shown by his much better performance against Arceus than they had and the fact that he literally fights them 2v1 in that one animated thing.

This, or he would just snatch Cyrus again, since without Cyrus commanding them, Palkia and Dialga wouldn't continue on, either with destroying the world, or creating a new universe
Like generally, Giratina is much more willing to take an active role in its preservation of the world in incidents not named Alamos Town, but even than that case is kinda an outlier

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You could also argue this means Giratina would have just beaten Dialga and Palkia's asses since he's consistently shown to upscale them individually as shown by his much better performance against Arceus than they had and the fact that he literally fights them 2v1 in that one animated thing.

Yeah that’s a fair point, but Cyrus does specifically make the notion that the world wouldn’t have been able to be reverted to its original state as long as Giratina and the distortion world exists. Rather than him saying Giratina would take alternate measures like snatching him up again.

And if Adventures helps gives us anything, since Cyrus there was able to get Dialga and Palkia to successfully begin resetting existence, their attempt at reverting the world ended up forcibly making a portal to the distortion world instead, suggesting Giratina did indeed nullify their attempt at destroying Spirit and everything else.

 

[Deonment]

And if Adventures helps gives us anything, since Cyrus there was able to get Dialga and Palkia to successfully begin resetting existence, their attempt at reverting the world ended up forcibly making a portal to the distortion world instead, suggesting Giratina did indeed nullify their attempt at destroying Spirit and everything else.

I mean, sure I can agree with that

Though I still have the above issues with scaling all their AP to having concept ee (rather than just normal/space-time ee, which I'm fine with)

 

[Re5yh]

Looks fine, I Agree

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean, sure I can agree with that

Though I still have the above issues with scaling all their AP to having concept ee (rather than just normal/space-time ee, which I'm fine with)

That I'll address in a bit, I wanted to get the Cyrus part covered first.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't actually remember them trying to destroy the (current) world actually, so a scan for that would be nice

In the anime it's stated by Jupiter, actually.

But either way, they destroy the world they created for Cyrus yeah, but that wouldn't actually mean much by itself bar just EE, seeing as the world wouldn't have its own concepts of space and time (seeing as those are the True Forms, unless you want to argue Time is conceptual, which you could, but I personally wouldn't), and the concept of Spirit is one spread across the Multiverse, so it isn't like the Dialga and Palkia could have made a universe without it without first or after destroying spirit.

Basically, my prior points about their attacks have EE effects was to pretty much point out that Dialga and Palkia's attacks would have those haxy, erasure components to them, so it would make sense for them to have conceptual erasure as aspects of their AP being able to erase things, whether space-time, existence or the cosmology.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Hmmm, I do have my doubts about a few things, but those points were already accepted in the past, so if anything, they’d need to be discussed in a separate thread.

That said, the logic used here makes sense. Although if I’m not mistaken, isn’t the Distortion World described as a world without spirit? How would that work exactly? What is spirit, anyway? Cyrus seems to talk about it as something inherently tied to humans. If that’s the case, then the argument of “if you destroy the universe, you destroy spirit because you wipe out the human race” actually makes sense, doesn’t it?

I don't necessarily disagree with the thread, I just want to be sure.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That said, the logic used here makes sense. Although if I’m not mistaken, isn’t the Distortion World described as a world without spirit? How would that work exactly? What is spirit, anyway? Cyrus seems to talk about it as something inherently tied to humans. If that’s the case, then the argument of “if you destroy the universe, you destroy spirit because you wipe out the human race” actually makes sense, doesn’t it?

I don't necessarily disagree with the thread, I just want to be sure.

This response from Deonment and myself pretty much answers this:

No? The Heart is very much non-corporeal and metaphysical, and as such wouldn't be affected by the very physical destruction of time and space.
Hell if we really want to I can bring up how all Heart as a whole originates from and as its core is the Original Spirit, and as such very, very much predates and would be fine if Dialga and Palkia bought it, let alone if space and time were destroyed.

The issue here is that the concept of Heart quite literally predates the emergence of the Heart in human and pokemon, with the Lake trio not only directly granting their aspects, but directly "praying" to bring Heart into existence. So it would make no sense for the destruction of the universe/all life to actually affect the concept of Heart (which directly predates and is superior to the concepts that the Lake Trio brought into existence) without also directly destroying all Heart, in addition to the fact that he would specifically be recreating the universe without Heart at all, which is a natural part of existence (and is entwined with Space and Time to begin with).

^This. Since the Lake Trio, who predate any aspects of existence, are the ones who brought forth Spirit into the cosmology for people, Pokemon and all beings, the concept of spirit predates everything and is an independent concept. So ridding the world of Spirit and destroying it wouldn't be possible at all without Dialga and Palkia fundamentally affecting how the independent concept itself applies to the world. Aka, conceptual manipulation.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Sorry, I think I explained myself poorly. Let me clarify.

My point was more focused on the idea that if we define “spirit” as the essence that makes up living beings (basically kokoro in Japanese: the union of soul, spirit, and mind), then by sheer logic, it’s possible to eliminate that “spirit” by eradicating all the entities that possess it.

Think about it this way: you have the concept of “red.” If you remove every particular instance that participates in that concept of red, then red ceases to exist in the sensible reality, so essentially, you’ve "erased it" even if the abstract object still "exists" outside of reality.

It could be that Pokémon uses a similar idea, which would make sense with the Distortion World being a place without spirit, because it’s a place where human impurity doesn’t exist.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sorry, I think I explained myself poorly. Let me clarify.

My point was more focused on the idea that if we define “spirit” as the essence that makes up living beings (basically kokoro in Japanese: the union of soul, spirit, and mind), then by sheer logic, it’s possible to eliminate that “spirit” by eradicating all the entities that possess it.

Think about it this way: you have the concept of “red.” If you remove every particular instance that participates in that concept of red, then red ceases to exist in the sensible reality, so essentially, you’ve "erased it" even if the abstract object still "exists" outside of reality.

It could be that Pokémon uses a similar idea, which would make sense with the Distortion World being a place without spirit, because it’s a place where human impurity doesn’t exist.

No I know what your point was, thats why I quoted what Deo and I said. The concept of spirit predates that of existence, it's not something that came about when people, Pokemon and all living beings came. It came before all of that, when the Lake Trio birthed the concept into being. It's non-corporeal, metaphysical, so the destruction of all living things and even space and time wouldn't eradicate Spirit.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The concept of spirit predates that of existence, it's not something that came about when people, Pokemon and all living beings came. It came before all of that, when the Lake Trio birthed the concept into being. It's non-corporeal, metaphysical, so the destruction of all living things and even space and time wouldn't eradicate Spirit.

I've never said the opposite.

Re-read what I wrote please.

My point was more focused on the idea that if we define “spirit” as the essence that makes up living beings (basically kokoro in Japanese: the union of soul, spirit, and mind), then by sheer logic, it’s possible to eliminate that “spirit” by eradicating all the entities that possess it.

Think about it this way: you have the concept of “red.” If you remove every particular instance that participates in that concept of red, then red ceases to exist in the sensible reality, so essentially, you’ve "erased it" even if the abstract object still "exists" outside of reality.

I’m explicitly acknowledging that spirit is something external to sensible reality. My argument is that Dialga and Palkia were going to destroy all instances of that concept within the material world, and thus in effect, “eliminate” it.

In fact, in one of the scans you posted above, we see Cyrus talking about how he removed spirit from his own reality, and yet the USUM trainer still has spirit. If he had actually destroyed the primordial concept of spirit, then that discrepancy wouldn’t exist, because everything should’ve been wiped out entirely.

 

[Deonment]

In the anime it's stated by Jupiter, actually.

Yeah, I can see that, but that also seems that the old world (and thus the "local" instance of spirit) will only be destroyed after the new world is created, which never actually reaches fruition

I’m explicitly acknowledging that spirit is something external to sensible reality. My argument is that Dialga and Palkia were going to destroy all instances of that concept within the material world, and thus in effect, “eliminate” it.

Fair enough point honestly, I can't really argue against it, though it would still require some form of concept manip for Spirit to then not come about in the new world

In fact, in one of the scans you posted above, we see Cyrus talking about how he removed spirit from his own reality, and yet the USUM trainer still has spirit. If he had actually destroyed the primordial concept of spirit, then that discrepancy wouldn’t exist, because everything should’ve been wiped out entirely.

Well, in that case in specific I have issues (that I mentioned above), that make me think that Cyrus never actually succeeded either, in part because USUM Cyrus only has one of Dialga and Palkia and not both, and not the Lake Trio (who we know would have interfered), and Giratina interefered once he thought he won, so I would honestly say that he never actually suceeded to begin with.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

though it would still require some form of concept manip for Spirit to then not come about in the new world

Or maybe, following my previous reasoning, it’s enough for the new world to simply not have living beings. Which, if you think about it, aligns perfectly with Cyrus’s anti-anthropocentric philosophy, he praises the precision of the artificial and rejects human impurity as something flawed.

That definitely sounds like something Palkia and Dialga could do without much trouble. What do you think?

Well, in that case in specific I have issues (that I mentioned above), that make me think that Cyrus never actually succeeded either, in part because USUM Cyrus only has one of Dialga and Palkia and not both, and not the Lake Trio (who we know would have interfered), and Giratina interefered once he thought he won, so I would honestly say that he never actually suceeded to begin with

Fair point. The way I had interpreted it was that Cyrus had already succeeded in destroying the world, but just as he was about to create the new one, he was taken and brought to the Rainbow Rocket headquarters.

That aside, let’s focus on something else: we do accept that each game version is a separate, disconnected universe, right?

Wouldn't it be a bit odd to think that if Cyrus had completed his plan, the entire multiverse, with all its variants of the same legendary trio, would vanish?

It’s an important question, because Pokémon operates on MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation), which means that a world where Cyrus wasn’t stopped by the protagonist must necessarily exist.

All of this, combined with the fact that the Distortion World is a place devoid of spirit, leads me to believe that the most coherent interpretation is also the least convoluted one.

 

[Deonment]

Or maybe, following my previous reasoning, it’s enough for the new world to simply not have living beings. Which, if you think about it, aligns perfectly with Cyrus’s anti-anthropocentric philosophy, he praises the precision of the artificial and rejects human impurity as something flawed.

That definitely sounds like something Palkia and Dialga could do without much trouble. What do you think?

We also know that pokemon can very much come into existence from purely artificial things, and we know spirit is what binds space and time together, so they would have to actively stop spirit from remanifesting

Fair point. The way I had interpreted it was that Cyrus had already succeeded in destroying the world, but just as he was about to create the new one, he was taken and brought to the Rainbow Rocket headquarters.

The issue with this interpretation is that in-game, anime and manga, we know that it is the creation (and then substitution) of Cyrus' new world that causes the old world to be destroyed, and we also have showings of Giratina interfering with this before it actually was completed, both in the games (where after the Lake Trio fail to stop Palkia and Dialga, Giratina shows up and yoinks Cyrus), and in the manga, where rather than anything that major happening, a portal to the distortion world was created instead, so instead Giratina just, did what we knew he could do (steal away Cyrus, prevent the end of existence as we know it, and yeet him into another timeline)

Wouldn't it be a bit odd to think that if Cyrus had completed his plan, the entire multiverse, with all its variants of the same legendary trio, would vanish?

That's a separate issue, but no, considering we (currently) consider the creation trio as pokemon to be manifestations of their true forms, and given Spirit is a force which binds space and time together, if Spirit well and truly ceased to be then they would be affected also, and Giratina wouldn't be affected anyways given the Distortion World exists outside of the whole multiverse anyways

It’s an important question, because Pokémon operates on MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation), which means that a world where Cyrus wasn’t stopped by the protagonist must necessarily exist.

Not really, considering MWI is limited to the extent of the Multiverse, and Giratina, which explicitly both lies outside of the structure as a whole, and does not abide by (or even have) causality to begin with, and should be entirely capable of just stepping in in the cases where a)the protag doesn't win or b)the lake trio can't stop him, along with how we already know that the Distortion World will automatically work to prevent stuff like that from working in the first place

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

We also know that pokemon can very much come into existence from purely artificial things, and we know spirit is what binds space and time together, so they would have to actively stop spirit from remanifesting

As far as I remember, the act of an artificial object becoming a Pokémon is mostly due to human involvement, like with Golurk or Claydol and their evolutions.

It is said that Golurk were ordered to protect people and Pokémon by the ancient people who made them.
Golurk were created to protect people and Pokémon. They run on a mysterious energy

Claydol are said to be dolls of mud made by primitive humans and brought to life by exposure to a mysterious ray. This Pokémon moves about while levitating.

Though to be fair, your argument makes sense if we consider Pokémon like Groudon or Kyogre, which are direct manifestations of the spirit that embodies their respective elements in the world.

I think conceptual manipulation could be a valid angle, but only if we assume that spirit would continue to exist even without the active presence of the lake trio.

Which, honestly, would be kind of odd, considering their pokedex description.

When Mesprit flew, people learned the joy and sadness of living. It was the birth of emotions.

When Azelf flew, people gained the determination to do things. It was the birth of willpower.

When Uxie flew, people gained the ability to solve problems. It was the birth of knowledge

Playing devil’s advocate, you could argue that if the lake trio were completely erased, then spirit simply wouldn’t exist anymore in universe X (as a collateral consequence).

Probably the pixies should be the only ones who truly have conceptual manipulation, since they seem to create a universal iteration of the concept of spirit through their actions.

The issue with this interpretation is that in-game, anime and manga, we know that it is the creation (and then substitution) of Cyrus' new world that causes the old world to be destroyed, and we also have showings of Giratina interfering with this before it actually was completed, both in the games (where after the Lake Trio fail to stop Palkia and Dialga, Giratina shows up and yoinks Cyrus), and in the manga, where rather than anything that major happening, a portal to the distortion world was created instead, so instead Giratina just, did what we knew he could do (steal away Cyrus, prevent the end of existence as we know it, and yeet him into another timeline)

Yeah, fair enough. Makes sense.

That's a separate issue, but no, considering we (currently) consider the creation trio as pokemon to be manifestations of their true forms, and given Spirit is a force which binds space and time together, if Spirit well and truly ceased to be then they would be affected also, and Giratina wouldn't be affected anyways given the Distortion World exists outside of the whole multiverse anyways

Oh of course, I’m not talking about their true forms, I mean all their iterations that are subject to the rules of the multiverse (that is, the ones we actually capture in the games).

If the fundamental concept of spirit that governs everything were truly destroyed, then by obvious inference, every universe in the multiverse should be affected, so Cyrus’s destruction would be multiversal in scale.

But I think that instead of that, Cyrus simply destroys and recreates a single world so that it can exist as a reality without living beings (looks like way more coherent this way).

Not really, considering MWI is limited to the extent of the Multiverse, and Giratina, which explicitly both lies outside of the structure as a whole, and does not abide by (or even have) causality to begin with, and should be entirely capable of just stepping in in the cases where a)the protag doesn't win or b)the lake trio can't stop him, along with how we already know that the Distortion World will automatically work to prevent stuff like that from working in the first place

It’s a weird argument. Remember that Diamond and Pearl versions also exist, where Giratina doesn’t intervene. Giratina only steps in when both space (Palkia) and time (Dialga) overlap.

So, since Cyrus’s plan at the top of Mt. Coronet is subject to the rules of the multiverse, there should exist a version of Cyrus who actually succeeded in his goal.

All of this is easily resolved by accepting the argument I proposed above.

 

[Deonment]

Playing devil’s advocate, you could argue that if the lake trio were completely erased, then spirit simply wouldn’t exist anymore in universe X (as a collateral consequence).

I mean in that case fair

Oh of course, I’m not talking about their true forms, I mean all their iterations that are subject to the rules of the multiverse (that is, the ones we actually capture in the games).

If the fundamental concept of spirit that governs everything were truly destroyed, then by obvious inference, every universe in the multiverse should be affected, so Cyrus’s destruction would be multiversal in scale.

But I think that instead of that, Cyrus simply destroys and recreates a single world so that it can exist as a reality without living beings (looks like way more coherent this way).

That, while true, is not what I was saying, I was saying that, since Spirit is what binds Space and Time together, and Dialga and Palkia are manifestations of these aspects, without Spirit, Space and Time themselves would fundamentally change in the new world, since Spirit is an aspect of existence that even without life, is fundamentally part of the Universe

It’s a weird argument. Remember that Diamond and Pearl versions also exist, where Giratina doesn’t intervene. Giratina only steps in when both space (Palkia) and time (Dialga) overlap.

So, since Cyrus’s plan at the top of Mt. Coronet is subject to the rules of the multiverse, there should exist a version of Cyrus who actually succeeded in his goal.

Giratina doesn't intervene because the Lake spirits are enough to suppress Palkia or Dialga, we already see in Platinum what happens when they aren't enough (Cyrus goes ahead with his plan before getting yoinked by Giratina), Giratina has no reason to interfere if the Lake Trio can do their jobs, if they aren't then Giratina will just play its part

All of this is easily resolved by accepting the argument I proposed above.

But yeah, I don't really have much to say against the life argument outside of the issue that Spirit is as fundamental to the Universe as Space and Time, but if you instead take it as Cryus just removing Spirit from the material parts of reality, then I don't have an argument there

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Giratina doesn't intervene because the Lake spirits are enough to suppress Palkia or Dialga, we already see in Platinum what happens when they aren't enough (Cyrus goes ahead with his plan before getting yoinked by Giratina), Giratina has no reason to interfere if the Lake Trio can do their jobs, if they aren't then Giratina will just play its part

So like, then Cyrus doesn’t succeed in any possible world for X or Y reasons. I don’t have enough knowledge about absolutely every part of the Pokémon franchise to go against that, so I’ll give the benefit of the doubt.

I was saying that, since Spirit is what binds Space and Time together, and Dialga and Palkia are manifestations of these aspects, without Spirit, Space and Time themselves would fundamentally change in the new world, since Spirit is an aspect of existence that even without life, is fundamentally part of the Universe

So what conclusion are we reaching, then? What do you think the conclusion for this thread should be? I’m genuinely interested in reading your opinion.