The GOAT finally gets the speed justification he deserves fr (War Arc high tiers speed revision)

[MinatoSparkle]

This CRT was coming for years. We all knew a Minato related speed revision was gonna come from me at one point or another. So here we go. First off, this is the sandbox containing all the proposed changes. Following is a (somewhat optional, but preferable to read) summary of the significant changes and elaboration on some points that I think warrant it, with the elaborations in bold.

Spoiler: Explanation

Minato

• His combat speed at least scales around Hashirama and Tobirama and scales around Late WA Kakashi and TSOs, and somewhat to Kurama (not complete relativity since the distances between everyone in the Bijuudama situation are somewhat unclear). He's also the fastest of his era (this part is more debatable and I'm open to different wordings in the justification as it can be interpreted in other ways; I'm just assuming the most basic interpretation in this case of Minato's combat speed>Everyone else's combat speed as there's no surrounding context to point to a different one, and it's just consistent with his other feats and statements)
• His Shunshin scales above Kurama, above Base Hashirama/Tobirama/Hiruzen's Shunshin, and likely far above YM Obito's combat speed
• His reaction speed is far above his combat speed/TSOs/8th Gate Guy's air travel speed and scales to his own Shunshin
• SM Minato is easily faster than Late WA Kakashi's Kamui and Late WA Gaara
• SM Minato's reaction speed might downscale from Pre-Shinju Juubidara (I expect this to be one of the more controversial points, but I don't really have anything more to say that's not in the sandbox/imgur; if you're not convinced after reading that, we can discuss further)

Tobirama

• He physically scales to Base Hashirama, and is only faster than SM Hashirama with FTG
• He doesn't scale above KCM Minato as Minato is shown and stated to have been in a stupor in the early stages of the Juubito fight, meaning Tobirama just scales above a nerfed Minato who's not even as fast as EMS Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o
• I removed Tobirama placing several paper bombs on Unstable Juubito as it's not concrete at all and would be inconsistent
  • Tobirama had paper bombs in one part of his body, making it possible that paper bombs simply splashed out of his body like debris onto Juubito when part of his body got destroyed
    
    • This is actually likely, as Tobirama doesn't seem to have a weapons pouch to hold paper bombs, meaning they had to either come out of his body or he just miraculously had a paper bomb summoning jutsu that was never mentioned; the former possibility definitely has more basis
  • It makes no real sense for Tobirama to have physically placed a paper bomb on the side of Juubito's left knee and arm, as he was on Juubito's right side, and his arm wouldn't have even been able to reach that far at the position he was in
  • This would essentially put Tobirama a blitz tier above Unstable Juubito, despite Juubito being superior to Hashirama, Tobirama's superior. You don't have to be faster than someone to be stronger, but you at least have to be able to keep up, which Hashirama wouldn't really under the manually placing paper bombs interpretation

Kakashi

• Separated his War Arc key into two keys, one covering the Edo Jinchūriki fight (as he didn't show any growth prior to that) and the rest covering from the Gedo Mazo battle until he got his Sharingan stolen
• Early War Arc
  • Made his speed scaling around Guy and the Jinchūriki more precise
• Late War Arc
  • His combat speed scales to Minato, TSOs, and Rinnegan Obito (this isn't contradictory to Minato~YM Obito, as the relativity between YM Obito, Minato, Kakashi, and Rinnegan Obito doesn't mean complete equality, and the speed boost provided by the Rinnegan is somewhat vague)
  • His Kamui speed scales to MKCM Naruto's chakra arm (and arguably Obito, but given that Obito kicked the kunai from a somewhat awkward position, it's hard to prove that the kicked kunai scales to his full speed), is somewhat comparable to KCM2 Naruto, and is superior to Rinnegan Obito's Kamui speed/8th Gate Guy's flight speed
  • Raikiri Kakashi is faster than Rinnegan Obito and a KCM2 clone

Obito

• Changed Obito's "Fourth Shinobi World War" key to "Rinnegan"
• Added "far higher reaction speed with the Sharingan" to YM/OM/WM/Ten Tails Obito's keys and revised OM Obito's justification accordingly (also changed OM Obito>YM Obito to OM Obito~/>YM Obito as there's technically no proof he got faster)
• Rinnegan Obito's combat speed scales to KCM2 Naruto, to/above Edo Madara, and above Kakashi's Kamui/MKCM Naruto/BM Bee
• His Kamui speed scales to a KCM2 clone/Edo Madara's Yasaka Magatama and above BM Bee/MKCM Naruto
• His reaction speed is above KCM2 Naruto's combat speed
• Fleshed out Juubito's speed justification and removed his feat against Nerfed KCM Minato

Naruto

• Fourth Shinobi World War
  • KCM1 Naruto's combat speed is comparable to Jonin Minato/Ay/BM Bee and faster than 3T Edo Itachi/Muu/the 3rd Raikage/Obito's V2 Jinchūriki
  • KCM2 Naruto's combat speed scales to Rinnegan Obito/Edo Madara and far above KCM1 Naruto/the Edo Jinchūriki
  • KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin is far faster than the Edo Jinchūriki's Bijuudamas/Rinnegan Obito/Edo Madara
• Birth of the Ten Tails' Jinchūriki
  • Added Base/SM/KCM1 Naruto
  • Added SM Naruto's reaction to Blind Madara
  • KCM1 Naruto~EMS Sasuke~WA Sakura and barely scales to Edo Madara/Rinnegan Obito
  • BOTTJ KCM2 Naruto is faster than his FSWW version
  • BSM Naruto is comparable to KCM Minato/SEMS Sasuke and barely scales to Juubito

Gaara

• Separated his War Arc key into two keys, one covering him from the FKS until he was put out of commission by Edo Madara (also changed this key name from "Fourth Shinobi World War" to "Five Kage Summit to Fourth Shinobi World War," and the rest covering from his return during the Juubito fight to the 8th Gate Guy fight
• Fourth Shinobi World War
  • Comparable to Rasa/Kankuro and later Ohnoki; his automatic sand defense scales to Sasuke's Amaterasu
• Birth of the Ten Tails' Jinchūriki
  • Scales above Kakashi's Kamui, to/above 8th Gate Guy's air travel speed, and slightly to Rinnegan SM Madara

Madara

• His TSOs are not FTL+ as that would be inconsistent with its antifeats. Instead, they scale above Obito's self Kamui/Kakashi's Kamui/Late WA Gaara's sand

Guy

• Merged his keys to fit the new two-key format of his profile
• Added 7th Gate Guy being faster than Edo Madara, Late WA Gaara, and Ōnoki enhanced V2 A
• Added feats to his 6th Gate justification
• Similar to Madara, his air travel speed isn't FTL+ like his combat speed is, because that would be inconsistent with its antifeats. Instead, his air travel speed will scale far above Tobirama due to performing better in a similar situation against a much faster Madara

Since the scaling around characters that scale to TSOs and Kamui is kind of complicated, I'm also gonna break that down into a simple list to make it more easily understandable.

1. Minato/Late WA Kakashi/Rinnegan Obito/Pre-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's TSOs
2. Late WA Gaara
3. Late WA Kakashi's Kamui/Six Paths Chakra BZ Obito's self Kamui
4. Rinnegan Obito's expulsive Kamui/KCM2 Naruto clone
5. Rinnegan Obito's self Kamui
6. MKCM Naruto

And that's pretty much everything. Now let's discuss!

Agree: Testarossa002 (mostly), SlendVeny, MattaGrimm

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[MeiouHades]

Agree for reasons that don't exist.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Is that a serious comment

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don’t think Kakashi should get gates scaling for his DMS form, that’s usually multiplying your base and not the external source


I feel like it’s better to just use normal justifications for the dms key

 

[Kaydee1648]

Air travel

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I don’t think Kakashi should get gates scaling for his DMS form, that’s usually multiplying your base and not the external source


I feel like it’s better to just use normal justifications for the dms key

I didn't talk about DMS Kakashi?

Air travel

I'm open to other names

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It said late 4GNW or something I assumed it would be his DMS key, ignore it then I shouldn’t be reading these on mobile

 

[Godernet]

Outlier no jutsu gg

This can be closed‍

 

[Testarossa002]

Nice work
There are a few things I disagree with (Guy, Kakashi and Minato) but I'd leave that for now
Still undecided on whether I tackle it here or do it in a fresh thread (provided it passes)

 

[karo_senpaii]

This CRT was coming for years. We all knew a Minato related speed revision was gonna come from me at one point or another. So here we go. First off, this is the sandbox containing all the proposed changes. Following is a (somewhat optional, but preferable to read) summary of the significant changes and elaboration on some points that I think warrant it, with the elaborations in bold.

Spoiler: Explanation

Minato

• His combat speed at least scales around Hashirama and Tobirama and scales around Late WA Kakashi and TSOs, and somewhat to Kurama (not complete relativity since the distances between everyone in the Bijuudama situation are somewhat unclear). He's also the fastest of his era (this part is more debatable and I'm open to different wordings in the justification as it can be interpreted in other ways; I'm just assuming the most basic interpretation in this case of Minato's combat speed>Everyone else's combat speed as there's no surrounding context to point to a different one, and it's just consistent with his other feats and statements)
• His Shunshin scales above Kurama, above Base Hashirama/Tobirama/Hiruzen's Shunshin, and likely far above YM Obito's combat speed
• His reaction speed is far above his combat speed/TSOs/8th Gate Guy's air travel speed and scales to his own Shunshin
• SM Minato is easily faster than Late WA Kakashi's Kamui and Late WA Gaara
• SM Minato's reaction speed might downscale from Pre-Shinju Juubidara (I expect this to be one of the more controversial points, but I don't really have anything more to say that's not in the sandbox/imgur; if you're not convinced after reading that, we can discuss further), which is rather consistent with a fatigued 3T Kakashi somewhat reacting to Post-Shinju Juubidara

Tobirama

• He physically scales to Base Hashirama, and is only faster than SM Hashirama with FTG
• He doesn't scale above KCM Minato as Minato is shown and stated to have been in a stupor in the early stages of the Juubito fight, meaning Tobirama just scales above a nerfed Minato who's not even as fast as EMS Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o
• I removed Tobirama placing several paper bombs on Unstable Juubito as it's not concrete at all and would be inconsistent
  • Tobirama had paper bombs in one part of his body, making it possible that paper bombs simply splashed out of his body like debris onto Juubito when part of his body got destroyed
    
    • This is actually likely, as Tobirama doesn't seem to have a weapons pouch to hold paper bombs, meaning they had to either come out of his body or he just miraculously had a paper bomb summoning jutsu that was never mentioned; the former possibility definitely has more basis
  • It makes no real sense for Tobirama to have physically placed a paper bomb on the side of Juubito's left knee and arm, as he was on Juubito's right side, and his arm wouldn't have even been able to reach that far at the position he was in
  • This would essentially put Tobirama a blitz tier above Unstable Juubito, despite Juubito being superior to Hashirama, Tobirama's superior. You don't have to be faster than someone to be stronger, but you at least have to be able to keep up, which Hashirama wouldn't really under the manually placing paper bombs interpretation

Kakashi

• Separated his War Arc key into two keys, one covering the Edo Jinchūriki fight (as he didn't show any growth prior to that) and the rest covering from the Gedo Mazo battle until he got his Sharingan stolen
• Early War Arc
  • Made his speed scaling around Guy and the Jinchūriki more precise
• Late War Arc
  • His combat speed scales to Minato, TSOs, and Rinnegan Obito (this isn't contradictory to Minato~YM Obito, as the relativity between YM Obito, Minato, Kakashi, and Rinnegan Obito doesn't mean complete equality, and the speed boost provided by the Rinnegan is somewhat vague)
  • His Kamui speed scales to MKCM Naruto's chakra arm (and arguably Obito, but given that Obito kicked the kunai from a somewhat awkward position, it's hard to prove that the kicked kunai scales to his full speed), is somewhat comparable to KCM2 Naruto, and is superior to Rinnegan Obito's Kamui speed
  • Raikiri Kakashi is faster than Rinnegan Obito and a KCM2 clone
  • Kakashi's reaction speed downscales from Post-Shinju Juubidara

Obito

• Changed Obito's "Fourth Shinobi World War" key to "Rinnegan"
• Added "far higher reaction speed with the Sharingan" to YM/OM/WM/Ten Tails Obito's keys and revised OM Obito's justification accordingly (also changed OM Obito>YM Obito to OM Obito~/>YM Obito as there's technically no proof he got faster)
• Rinnegan Obito's combat speed scales to KCM2 Naruto, to/above Edo Madara, and above Kakashi's Kamui/MKCM Naruto/BM Bee
• His Kamui speed scales to a KCM2 clone/Edo Madara's Yasaka Magatama and above BM Bee/MKCM Naruto
• His reaction speed is above KCM2 Naruto's combat speed
• Fleshed out Juubito's speed justification and removed his feat against Nerfed KCM Minato

Naruto

• Fourth Shinobi World War
  • KCM1 Naruto's combat speed is comparable to Jonin Minato/Ay/BM Bee and faster than 3T Edo Itachi/Muu/the 3rd Raikage/Obito's V2 Jinchūriki
  • KCM2 Naruto's combat speed scales to Rinnegan Obito/Edo Madara and far above KCM1 Naruto/the Edo Jinchūriki
  • KCM2 Naruto's Shunshin is far faster than the Edo Jinchūriki's Bijuudamas/Rinnegan Obito/Edo Madara
• Birth of the Ten Tails' Jinchūriki
  • Added Base/SM/KCM1 Naruto
  • Added SM Naruto's reaction to Blind Madara
  • KCM1 Naruto~EMS Sasuke~WA Sakura and barely scales to Edo Madara/Rinnegan Obito
  • BOTTJ KCM2 Naruto is faster than his FSWW version
  • BSM Naruto is comparable to KCM Minato/SEMS Sasuke and barely scales to Juubito

Gaara

• Separated his War Arc key into two keys, one covering him from the FKS until he was put out of commission by Edo Madara (also changed this key name from "Fourth Shinobi World War" to "Five Kage Summit to Fourth Shinobi World War," and the rest covering from his return during the Juubito fight to the 8th Gate Guy fight
• Fourth Shinobi World War
  • Comparable to Rasa/Kankuro and later Ohnoki; his automatic sand defense scales to Sasuke's Amaterasu
• Birth of the Ten Tails' Jinchūriki
  • Scales above Kakashi's Kamui, to/above 8th Gate Guy's air travel speed, and slightly to Rinnegan SM Madara

Madara

• His TSOs are not FTL+ as that would be inconsistent with its antifeats. Instead, they scale above Obito's self Kamui/Kakashi's Kamui/Late WA Gaara's sand

Guy

• Merged his keys to fit the new two-key format of his profile
• Added 7th Gate Guy being faster than Edo Madara, Late WA Gaara, and Ōnoki enhanced V2 A
• Added feats to his 6th Gate justification
• Similar to Madara, his air travel speed isn't FTL+ like his combat speed is, because that would be inconsistent with its antifeats. Instead, his air travel speed will scale far above Tobirama due to performing better in a similar situation against a much faster Madara

Since the scaling around characters that scale to TSOs and Kamui is kind of complicated, I'm also gonna break that down into a simple list to make it more easily understandable.

1. Minato/Late WA Kakashi/Rinnegan Obito/Pre-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's TSOs
2. Late WA Gaara
3. Late WA Kakashi's Kamui/Six Paths Chakra BZ Obito's self Kamui
4. Rinnegan Obito's expulsive Kamui/KCM2 Naruto clone
5. Rinnegan Obito's self Kamui
6. MKCM Naruto

And that's pretty much everything. Now let's discuss!

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Off the bat I disagree with the ftl+ kakashi section. Madara was coming from a great distance away. Kakashi likely sensed his chakra and turned in response. And considering he has rel speeds it's something you can easily do from quite a distance

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Off the bat I disagree with the ftl+ kakashi section. Madara was coming from a great distance away. Kakashi likely sensed his chakra and turned in response. And considering he has rel speeds it's something you can easily do from quite a distance

I don't think that really changes the feat of Kakashi turning his head given that Kakashi is unresponsive until Madara is shown already being just a few meters away.

 

[SlendVeny]

Gaara

Agree FRA

 

[karo_senpaii]

I don't think that really changes the feat of Kakashi turning his head given that Kakashi is unresponsive until Madara is shown already being just a few meters away.

Uhhn that's not definitive proof considering he couldn't dodge. Also tbh turning your head is a few cms of movement at best. You see what I'm driving at right?

 

[MeiouHades]

I don't think that really changes the feat of Kakashi turning his head given that Kakashi is unresponsive until Madara is shown already being just a few meters away.

You can still do that even if you're just relativistic. Turning your head like, what, maybe a fourth of the circumference of your neck is a far shorter distance than what Madara had yet to move still.

 

[Damage3245]

Karo and Hades are correct on that.

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t really have the time to go over everything right now, but there is one thing I want to address:

possibly FTL reaction speed (Seemingly jerked backward in response to Pre-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's slash, but it's somewhat vague and he didn't actually dodge the attack)

No. Just… no.

The fact that you had to put the caveats of “seemingly”, “somewhat vague” and “he didn’t actually dodge” should tell you that this isn’t even remotely solid enough for scaling, even for a possibly rating.

Minato falling backwards could very easily be a result of Madara cutting his arm off, and if we look to the anime for more clarity, there’s absolutely no indication of Minato moving in response to Madara.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bro he seemingly… what

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bro he seemingly… what

Goon7Kuroi

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Uhhn that's not definitive proof considering he couldn't dodge.

Hence his reactions likely being 10c as opposed to 20/28c which is Madara's speed. Although Kakashi was being sneak attacked anyways.

Also tbh turning your head is a few cms of movement at best. You see what I'm driving at right?

A few centimeters is downplaying it. I get that it's an odd feat, but it's still pretty blatant and worth taking into consideration.

You can still do that even if you're just relativistic. Turning your head like, what, maybe a fourth of the circumference of your neck is a far shorter distance than what Madara had yet to move still.

Not really. That's more than a 200x speed difference, which isn't accounted for by the rather small distance

I don’t really have the time to go over everything right now, but there is one thing I want to address:

No. Just… no.

The fact that you had to put the caveats of “seemingly”, “somewhat vague” and “he didn’t actually dodge” should tell you that this isn’t even remotely solid enough for scaling, even for a possibly rating.

Minato falling backwards could very easily be a result of Madara cutting his arm off,

No, because Minato's position had significantly changed before his arm was cut off, if it hadn't his body and arm would be farther apart from each other

and if we look to the anime for more clarity, there’s absolutely no indication of Minato moving in response to Madara.

He's shown both moving backwards while Madara's kicking his arm and explicitly turning his head before Madara kicks him. The before his arm was cut off part is different though, to the point of him not even being in the same position so idt that's really the best source.

 

[Damage3245]

He's shown both moving backwards while Madara's kicking his arm and explicitly turning his head before Madara kicks him. The before his arm was cut off part is different though, to the point of him not even being in the same position so idt that's really the best source.

This is not a good feat for Minato. Being shown to move before Madara is even attacking him means there is no comparison between Madara's speed and his speed.

 

[MeiouHades]

.

Not really. That's more than a 200x speed difference, which isn't accounted for by the rather small distance
.

The circumference for an average man's neck is 37 centimeters. A fourth of that would be 9.25 centimeters. You said Madara moved a few meters, so let's assume 2 meters as a bare minimum. That's 200 centimeters, barely more than a 20x difference which does not justify a 200x speed upgrade, not to mention 2 meters is the bare minimum here, it could be more, I haven't pixel scaled it

 

[Testarossa002]

**** it. Let's get this done now.
I'm not interested in bible wars. This will just be a long post and nothing more. I might make a short reply later to address any counterarguments.

Spoiler: Minato

My main issue with his scaling is that the "feats" tend to be isolated and then used for scaling.
For example:

Minato moved to take action, then slammed himself into the ground before Pre-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's Truth-Seeker Orbs could get close to Kakashi and Obito.

If you didn’t click the link, you might come away thinking Minato pulled off a noteworthy feat—intentionally taking action and slamming himself down before the Truth-Seeking Orbs could do anything meaningful to the Kamui duo. In reality, he simply tried to move, lost his balance because he had no arms, and fell without covering any significant distance relative to the TSOs.

He also tossed a kunai to Kakashi faster than Madara's Truth-Seeker Orb could get close to Guy, as Kakashi had enough time to intercept it from a distance.

Another misrepresentation. While the statement is technically true, it's largely irrelevant when scaling Minato's speed relative to the Truth-Seeking Orb. Throwing a kunai to Kakashi—who was standing right beside him—has no bearing on the TSO, which was covering a much greater distance.
Here comes the biggest contention

with possibly FTL reaction speed (Seemingly jerked backward in response to Pre-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara's slash, but it's somewhat vague and he didn't actually dodge the attack)

We did discuss this off-site, but we never really concluded it—my bad.
I do agree that Minato technically 'reacted' to Madara. The anime helps clarify this a bit: he grunts, gets sliced, Madara kicks his arm, then he leans up slightly before being kicked again.
However, I don’t agree that this should be used to scale Minato anywhere near Madara’s level. The fact that he was essentially statued while Madara carried out three distinct actions (a slash and two kicks) makes it pretty clear he was heavily outclassed in terms of speed. You’ve tried to explain it away with this:

Minato seems to have jerked backward (perhaps he tried to dodge after seeing Madara start to swing his staff), with speed lines and his flowing cloak indicating that he had moved, along with his left leg being in a different position

If Minato was genuinely trying to dodge Madara’s swing, he could have attempted to pull his arm completely out of range, which would’ve been far easier than trying to jerk his entire body back for a full evasion. However, his arm is in essentially the same position in both panels, showing no meaningful attempt to move it.
The scaling would make more sense if Madara had been aiming for Minato’s torso, missed due to Minato’s evasive movement, and ended up hitting a trailing arm instead. But that’s not what happened—Madara aimed for the arm, sliced it cleanly, and followed up with a roundhouse kick before Minato had made any significant movement. That sequence makes it clear just how outclassed Minato was in that moment.

Spoiler: Kakashi and Guy

Just to clarify, I’ve gone over the scaling for both of these characters extensively, including discussions with Slayer. The conclusion we came to is that there’s no definitive or ‘perfect’ scaling for either of them. To make it work, you'd have to ignore certain details, hyperfocus on others, or even rely on headcanon to bridge the gaps. Because of that, I can’t say your scaling is more right or wrong than mine—we’re both working with imperfect information. We’ll just have to wait and see how things develop in my CRT.
I'd just tackle this for now:

likely FTL+ reaction speed with the Sharingan (Turned his head in response to Post-Shinju Ten-Tails Jinchūriki Madara flying at him, but he was unable to dodge)

Yeah.....this ain't it
He quite literally got blitzed. Yes, it was off-guard, but that doesn’t justify elevating the scene beyond how it was clearly portrayed. The speed of his Kamui is a full tier above his own movement speed (See FKS vs Sasuke), yet even Kamui was slower than Pre-Shinju Juubidara’s Truth-Seeking Orb, which, according to you, is itself slower than Madara’s base movement speed. And let’s not forget that version of Madara is weaker than the one who ripped out Kakashi’s eye. Hopefully, you can see the inconsistency here. He shouldn't be scaling to Madara in any form. Also, how is this considered a Sharingan-enhanced reaction speed feat when he had already turned before the Sharingan could even register Madara? If the movement happened prior to the Sharingan providing any visual input, then it shouldn’t be credited as a result of its enhanced perception.

You did take care of some important stuff for the characters that are lacking on the profiles but currently absent. Sharingan-based reaction speed, Kamui speed, Body flicker, and so on greatly enhance the user's speed in various capacities but are missing from the current profiles. Kudos on that

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is not a good feat for Minato. Being shown to move before Madara is even attacking him means there is no comparison between Madara's speed and his speed.

1. Minato moved at the same time Madara was kicking his arm
2. It's not like Madara took a nap between attacks, Minato moved in the time it took for Madara to transition from kicking Minato's arm to kicking Minato himself

The circumference for an average man's neck is 37 centimeters. A fourth of that would be 9.25 centimeters. You said Madara moved a few meters, so let's assume 2 meters as a bare minimum. That's 200 centimeters, barely more than a 20x difference which does not justify a 200x speed upgrade, not to mention 2 meters is the bare minimum here, it could be more, I haven't pixel scaled it

This is still a large difference between where Kakashi's reaction speed scales currently and what this feat would suggest. You're also scrutinizing it far more than is necessary. A lot of reaction speed feats (and even speed feats in general) don't involve moving the same distance as the opponent, just reacting from a reasonably close distance. If Madara had a stated speed I would propose pixel scaling how much Kakashi moved in comparison to Madara but that would be calc stacking in this case (I think), so the next best option is just downscaling rather than completely ignoring that Kakashi reacted to someone more than 200x faster than him.

**** it. Let's get this done now.
I'm not interested in bible wars. This will just be a long post and nothing more. I might make a short reply later to address any counterarguments.

My main issue with his scaling is that the "feats" tend to be isolated and then used for scaling.
For example:

If you didn’t click the link, you might come away thinking Minato pulled off a noteworthy feat—intentionally taking action and slamming himself down before the Truth-Seeking Orbs could do anything meaningful to the Kamui duo. In reality, he simply tried to move, lost his balance because he had no arms, and fell without covering any significant distance relative to the TSOs.

I wouldn't necessarily say that considering the TSOs visually hadn't travelled too far by the time Minato fell. There's like a few dozen meters between Madara and Kakashi/Obito, and by the time Minato fell, the TSOs were still quite far from the two. It's not the most quantifiable thing in the world, but it is a valid supporting feat (supporting since Minato scales to Kakashi who directly scales to TSOs, and Minato later has his infamous feat of turning to catch TSOs on his back at point blank range (which is technically a reaction speed feat, but in practicality just speaks to how fast he can move)).

Another misrepresentation. While the statement is technically true, it's largely irrelevant when scaling Minato's speed relative to the Truth-Seeking Orb. Throwing a kunai to Kakashi—who was standing right beside him—has no bearing on the TSO, which was covering a much greater distance.
Here comes the biggest contention

Again, can't be that the TSO had covered a great distance seeing as Madara already wasn't very far from Guy, Kakashi was far away from Guy even before he charged forward and pressed Madara backwards, and Kakashi still threw the kunai to intercept Madara's TSO at a comparable speed. Given how small a margin of error there was, Minato would've had to throw the kunai to Kakashi before the TSO had covered any significant distance.

Here comes the biggest contention

We did discuss this off-site, but we never really concluded it—my bad.
I do agree that Minato technically 'reacted' to Madara. The anime helps clarify this a bit: he grunts, gets sliced, Madara kicks his arm, then he leans up slightly before being kicked again.
However, I don’t agree that this should be used to scale Minato anywhere near Madara’s level. The fact that he was essentially statued while Madara carried out three distinct actions (a slash and two kicks) makes it pretty clear he was heavily outclassed in terms of speed. You’ve tried to explain it away with this:

If Minato was genuinely trying to dodge Madara’s swing, he could have attempted to pull his arm completely out of range, which would’ve been far easier than trying to jerk his entire body back for a full evasion. However, his arm is in essentially the same position in both panels, showing no meaningful attempt to move it.

Maybe it would've been easier, but Minato could've been trying to put distance between them rather than just avoiding the one blow, and/or his instinctive reaction was simply incorrect (sort of like this moment). A more out there but plausible reason is that he was using Shunshin, which involves chakra concentrated at the feet for a super boost, and with that jutsu activated it would've been faster for him to run/jump away then to move his arm.

The scaling would make more sense if Madara had been aiming for Minato’s torso, missed due to Minato’s evasive movement, and ended up hitting a trailing arm instead. But that’s not what happened—Madara aimed for the arm, sliced it cleanly, and followed up with a roundhouse kick before Minato had made any significant movement. That sequence makes it clear just how outclassed Minato was in that moment.

Incredibly outclassed yes, but completely statued no. It'd be one thing if the values we're working with were sort of close (e.g. Madara was just baseline FTL), but the Minato vs Madara scene isn't one of 0.1c+ reaction speed vs 10/14c combat speed. There should be some sort of middle ground. I would even be fine with changing the possibly 5.5c reaction speed to possibly 1.1c reaction speed, and that is what I had originally, I just heard downscaling is meant to be down to the average of the lower tier rather than the baseline.

Just to clarify, I’ve gone over the scaling for both of these characters extensively, including discussions with Slayer. The conclusion we came to is that there’s no definitive or ‘perfect’ scaling for either of them. To make it work, you'd have to ignore certain details, hyperfocus on others, or even rely on headcanon to bridge the gaps. Because of that, I can’t say your scaling is more right or wrong than mine—we’re both working with imperfect information. We’ll just have to wait and see how things develop in my CRT.
I'd just tackle this for now:

Yeah.....this ain't it
He quite literally got blitzed. Yes, it was off-guard, but that doesn’t justify elevating the scene beyond how it was clearly portrayed.

It's by definition not a blitz, since a blitz entails attacking an opponent before they can do anything. Madara if anything is just around the cusp of a blitz tier above Kakashi.

The speed of his Kamui is a full tier above his own movement speed (See FKS vs Sasuke), yet even Kamui was slower than Pre-Shinju Juubidara’s Truth-Seeking Orb, which, according to you, is itself slower than Madara’s base movement speed.

This was true prior to the WA, but Late WA Kakashi is physically faster than his Kamui. It's really quite simple. Kakashi~TSO>Kamui. It's odd certainly, but this just means Kamui's speed doesn't scale proportionately with the user.

And let’s not forget that version of Madara is weaker than the one who ripped out Kakashi’s eye. Hopefully, you can see the inconsistency here. He shouldn't be scaling to Madara in any form. Also, how is this considered a Sharingan-enhanced reaction speed feat when he had already turned before the Sharingan could even register Madara? If the movement happened prior to the Sharingan providing any visual input, then it shouldn’t be credited as a result of its enhanced perception.

The Sharingan doesn't just boost reactions in terms of giving you better eyesight and precognition, it boosts you physically too. That's how previously High Hypersonic+ Sasuke was able to dodge Sub-Relativistic KM0 Naruto from fairly close distances. And heck, even in that fight the 3T boost helped Sasuke react to an attack from behind.

Btw, you didn't say anything about Guy?

You did take care of some important stuff for the characters that are lacking on the profiles but currently absent. Sharingan-based reaction speed, Kamui speed, Body flicker, and so on greatly enhance the user's speed in various capacities but are missing from the current profiles. Kudos on that

 

[Damage3245]

Why is it being assumed that Madara is flying at FTL+ speeds? We've seen Madara fly far slower than that.

 

[MeiouHades]

Are we really doing a Bible war?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Why is it being assumed that Madara is flying at FTL+ speeds? We've seen Madara fly far slower than that.

He flew fast enough that Sasuke couldn't figure out he had substituted and switch places with him before he got far away, and Madara reached Kakashi before a Chidori amped Sasuke could reach him.

Are we really doing a Bible war?

Yes.

 

[Damage3245]

He flew fast enough that Sasuke couldn't figure out he had substituted and switch places with him before he got far away, and Madara reached Kakashi before a Chidori amped Sasuke could reach him.

Sasuke was tricked by the substitution delaying him a moment for Madara to get out of range of his teleportation jutsu, and he had to catch up to Madara on foot which just means that Sasuke likely can't run far distances at FTL speeds.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sasuke was tricked by the substitution delaying him a moment for Madara to get out of range of his teleportation jutsu,

It wouldn't take long given that Madara suddenly not being there is a very obvious change, and Sasuke just had to look to know what had happened and then focus back on the real Madara.

and he had to catch up to Madara on foot which just means that Sasuke likely can't run far distances at FTL speeds.

It's not a far distance though. We're not talking about an hours long journey, it's a few moments and a couple hundred meters at most. Given that even Elite Jonin/Low Kage level characters can Shunshin 10+ meters pretty casually I see no reason why Rinnegan Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep his FTL+ speed up until he reaches Madara when the distance you can run at extreme speed is just determined by how much chakra you put in the jutsu.

Not to mention that Madara was impressed and arguably blitzed by Sasuke's running speed even after he had travelled this distance.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It wouldn't take long given that Madara suddenly not being there is a very obvious change, and Sasuke just had to look to know what had happened and then focus back on the real Madara.

It's not a far distance though. We're not talking about an hours long journey, it's a few moments and a couple hundred meters at most. Given that even Elite Jonin/Low Kage level characters can Shunshin 10+ meters pretty casually I see no reason why Rinnegan Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep his FTL+ speed up until he reaches Madara when the distance you can run at extreme speed is just determined by how much chakra you put in the jutsu.

Not to mention that Madara was impressed and arguably blitzed by Sasuke's running speed even after he had travelled this distance.

I'm not sure we should just be considering that madara was very close to kakashi before he turned his head. Tbh in a way it gives more credence to the fact that he is actually leagues slower. Like a hypersonic character having cloud to ground lightning fired at him would probably actually dodge when the lightning is already close to him not coz he's faster or comparable in speed but coz before he even finished processing the lightning coming down, it had covered a great distance.


I honestly think kakashi sensed madara from quite a distance and in the process of trying to turn his head madara already got close. He just then moved a few centimetres while madara still covered meters before grabbing the eye

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Brevity is the soul of wit, and it appears this thread is filled with the soulless…

 

[LordTracer]

Yes.

Sparkle, genuine question, has it ever occurred to you that your love of multi-page long Bible wars is part of the reason why your threads always take 9000 years to conclude?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm not sure we should just be considering that madara was very close to kakashi before he turned his head. Tbh in a way it gives more credence to the fact that he is actually leagues slower. Like a hypersonic character having cloud to ground lightning fired at him would probably actually dodge when the lightning is already close to him not coz he's faster or comparable in speed but coz before he even finished processing the lightning coming down, it had covered a great distance.


I honestly think kakashi sensed madara from quite a distance and in the process of trying to turn his head madara already got close. He just then moved a few centimetres while madara still covered meters before grabbing the eye

I don't think that's really applicable here since Kakashi didn't even seem to know Madara was there until Naruto alerted him and Madara was already close.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Sparkle, genuine question, has it ever occurred to you that your love of multi-page long Bible wars is part of the reason why your threads always take 9000 years to conclude?

Most likely lack of irl friends

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sparkle, genuine question, has it ever occurred to you that your love of multi-page long Bible wars is part of the reason why your threads always take 9000 years to conclude?

I joke about it a lot but I don't really love it, it's pretty tiring. But it's only reasonable that I address comments completely, and when the other person fully addresses that it just naturally ends up that way.

Most likely lack of irl friends

You'd actually be pretty close to the truth rn given that some of my friends are at camp but nah this happens even when my social life is good

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I joke about it a lot but I don't really love it, it's pretty tiring. But it's only reasonable that I address comments completely, and when the other person fully addresses that it just naturally ends up that way.

Or learn how to be concise… learn how to coalesce points in a way that’s digestible, rather than word vomit… more words =/= better

That’s my wholehearted advice if you want this thread to conclude before 2026

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Sparkle, genuine question, has it ever occurred to you that your love of multi-page long Bible wars is part of the reason why your threads always take 9000 years to conclude?

Tears lmao

Most likely lack of irl friends

Alr let’s chill up now

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Or learn how to be concise… learn how to coalesce points in a way that’s digestible, rather than word vomit… more words =/= better

That’s my wholehearted advice if you want this thread to conclude before 2026

I think I've been fairly concise in my responses this thread at least, there's just a lot of points

 

[MeiouHades]

Sparkle, genuine question, has it ever occurred to you that your love of multi-page long Bible wars is part of the reason why your threads always take 9000 years to conclude?

No. It hasn't occurred to him.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Or learn how to be concise… learn how to coalesce points in a way that’s digestible, rather than word vomit… more words =/= better

That’s my wholehearted advice if you want this thread to conclude before 2026

Wtf does coalesce even mean?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Wtf does coalesce even mean?

Google it Raven junior