Garou vs Reinhard (15-5-1)

[Delusionaltx2]

Watch Puck vs Reinhard

Reinhard came into this fully knowing how dangerous puck was I believe.

Garous threat lvl at this point isn't exactly world ending he's more like dragon lvl so I don't think thats a good comparison

 

[Phoenks]

Not really sure how Garou's sleepwalkong works but sleepwalking does not equal active sustained fighting, it typically happens during non REM deep sleep where the body is on autopilot but thw movements are usually simple and limited, fighting like a madman is nothing like that because jt requires continuous complex motor function and high brain activity which directly disrupts the restorative processes of sleep, so comparing a sleepwalker slowly pacing around to someone brawling nonstop is a false equivalence.

I mean that Garou fights while sleeping.

While sleeping he can still master opponent's attacks with just a "glance", subconsciously obtain and utilize composited martial arts that not even masters in the first can replicate completely put together (Which is impossible even for a world-class genius), use techniques despite only having read about them beforehand, and defeat people like Bang & Bomb who each have similar levels of master and decades worth of experience in martial arts. They are the world-class geniuses in the verse.

 

[Zabazab]

he upscales from characters who can read perception blitz danmaku; however garou has adapted simmilar things before while in an enclosed area I might add

For refference, golden bullets attacks were so fast garou had to read his hand movements to guess his trajectory in orer to ut narrowly dodge one meaning the attack is not only way faster than him but it's fast enough to the point he has to prepare to dodge long before the attack is launched so it's pretty obv he can't percieve the attack itself, making it FTE

A mentally 7-year-old Emilia who has only lived in the woods without training, could evade a rain of arrows faster than her eyes could see by simply reading the shooters' intent. Reinhard is so far above this that I don't even know how long the scaling chain would be, several tens at least.

Garous threat lvl at this point isn't exactly world ending he's

To be fair Reinhard killed Miles in a flash of light just for not surrendering which was kind of brutal of him. He's a nice guy who would ask someone to surrender but if they're an enemy who won't give up quick he just kind of does them in.

 

[First_Witch]

Yeah and I'm saying while it isn't logically possible irl we can't just dismiss it as nothing so we can just equate it to dodging bullet hell danmaku, which is a viable skill feat it's just nothing compared to garou

It being "logically impossible irl" is not the issue, because most valid skill feats arent "logically possible irl". Like obviously even the greatest boxer that have ever lived can't truly analytically predict opponents, thats a given. The issue is that it is logically impossible period. You are trying to fit something where it dosnt belong, and it doesnt belong there because it cant happen within the logical frame that is skill.

You are not a good sword fighter for shooting your opponent in the middle of the sword fight. Because you are not operating within the logical framework of a sword fight. And the logical framework of skill is biomechanics and the laws of physics.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

A mentally 7-year-old Emilia who has only lived in the woods without training, could evade a rain of arrows faster than her eyes could see by simply reading the shooters' intent.

So can human Garou while on 1hp, pumped full of poison, and heavily fatigued

He also does a simmilar feat while in an enclosed area

Reinhard is so far above this that I don't even know how long the scaling chain would be, several tens at least.

Same with garou

To be fair Reinhard killed Miles in a flash of light just for not surrendering which was kind of brutal of him. He's a nice guy who would ask someone to surrender but if they're an enemy who won't give up quick he just kind of does them in.

Is this flash of light supposed to be the same as his 1000 kilometer spatial EE??

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It being "logically impossible irl" is not the issue, because most valid skill feats arent "logically possible irl". Like obviously even the greatest boxer that have ever lived can't truly analytically predict opponents, thats a given. The issue is that it is logically impossible period. You are trying to fit something where it dosnt belong, and it doesnt belong there because it cant happen within the logical frame that is skill.

You are not a good sword fighter for shooting your opponent in the middle of the sword fight. Because you are not operating within the logical framework of a sword fight. And the logical framework of skill is biomechanics and the laws of physics.

Ik but you can still equate it to things that are logically possible to use as a reference point to quantify the feat in question which in this case is rain dodging

we can do that through comparing it to danmaku

 

[Epiccheev]

The only way to counter a logically impossible skill feat is with another logically impossible skill feat.

 

[Crimsonobu]

... Why do you assume i agree with concept cutting being skill in the first place? Its the same contrived nonsense. In fact, you will find me break my back to justify rain dodging as skill before i will do so for that shit. Its not. And I have written an entire schizophrenia manifesto to argue this very point, but to keep it short.

Skill is born of the limitations of biomechanics and physics. It determines your ability to fight. And you fight under the limits of physics and within the means of biomechanics. Thats how your body works and thats how your body interacts with reality. Those 2 factors are the thing that separates fake martial arts and useful ones like boxing.

No amount of biomechanics, no amount of precision will ever net you the cutting ability to slice concepts. Its not that it is physically impossible, because its not our reality that limits fictional skill, its that there is no logical, causal chain that goes from cutting ever harder and harder things to cutting metaphysical things. There just isnt. Its not impossible (it is) that is the issue. Its that it is nonsensical. If I were to ask you "how hot the temperature of this particular flame is", you answering "leaf" does not answer my question.

If skill in fiction must always follow a real-world causal chain, then rain-dodging, bullet-timing, and dozens of other “skill feats” fall apart the same way concept cutting does, because none of them map cleanly onto biomechanics or physics. What makes them “skill” isn’t real causality but narrative causality: the author establishes a path of refinement (focus, perception, precision, discipline) and uses it to justify feats beyond the physical. If rain-dodging is valid skill because the story frames it as such, then concept cutting is no different, it’s just skill expressed at a metaphysical level rather than a physical one.

However if you disagree with all fictional skill feats that seem Implausible then

If you limit “skill” strictly to biomechanics and physics, then of course concept cutting isn’t skill — but that definition excludes almost every fictional martial feat ever written. Fiction doesn’t need to obey real causality; it only needs an internally consistent causal chain, and authors routinely establish that things like “dodging rain” or “cutting concepts” are trainable, repeatable, or differentiated by mastery. That’s exactly how “skill” functions in narrative: it’s the measure by which characters are separated in ability. So saying “none of them are skill” doesn’t resolve the issue, it just creates a definition of skill so narrow that it can’t be applied to fiction at all.

 

[Trxyway]

I mean that Garou fights while sleeping.

While sleeping he can still master opponent's attacks with just a "glance", subconsciously obtain and utilize composited martial arts that not even masters in the first can replicate completely put together (Which is impossible even for a world-class genius), use techniques despite only having read about them beforehand, and defeat people like Bang & Bomb who each have similar levels of master and decades worth of experience in martial arts. They are the world-class geniuses in the verse.

People who sleep walk still get rest. Sleeping is a weird phenomenon that we don't really understand, but it somehow refreshes the brain, and that's all that really matters for mental endurance.

I was replying to this bit, "people who sleep walk still get rest", you’re showing how effective he is at fighting while asleep, but effectiveness doesn’t equal rest" unless i'm obviously understanding this wrong

 

[Delusionaltx2]

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless I voted for garou btw

 

[Epiccheev]

Reinhard must fight Saitama Gudetama next and get his revenge

 

[Trxyway]

Reinhard came into this fully knowing how dangerous puck was I believe.

Garous threat lvl at this point isn't exactly world ending he's more like dragon lvl so I don't think thats a good comparison

Would stuff like, having a sixth sense which perceives danger in advance, being superior to characters who are constantly aware of everything in their surroundings, analyzing other's physical abilities, Superior to characters who can judge a person’s abilities at a glance, nnfathomably superior to characters who can tell how strong someone is at a single glance, as well as what martial arts they use not help him in this?

 

[Zabazab]

Is this flash of light supposed to be the same as his 1000 kilometer spatial EE??

Oh no no at most this would be his spatial stuff, not direct EE. I'm just saying Garou doesn't have to be a world-ender for Reinhard to nuke him.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Page 1: sword
Page 10: logically impossible skill.

Somethings never change

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Oh no no at most this would be his spatial stuff, not direct EE. I'm just saying Garou doesn't have to be a world-ender for Reinhard to nuke him.

If it's just his spatial stuff, what stops garou from just dodging it? From what it seems the light has to engulf him first and also theirs also the chance garou could just bum rush reinhard with his 40+ different martial arts and force reinhard to fight him up close without giving him the time to do that.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Would stuff like, having a sixth sense which perceives danger in advance,

Danger sense on its own doesn't magically give you that kinda knowledge

being superior to characters who are constantly aware of everything in their surroundings,

so is garou?

analyzing other's physical abilities,

so can garou

Superior to characters who can judge a person’s abilities at a glance, nnfathomably superior to characters who can tell how strong someone is at a single glance,

same s*** with garou

as well as what martial arts they use not help him in this?

No, because his opponent has knowledge of all of this, and either would already have ways to counter this at the start of the fight or would develop ways to counter this in an extreme short timeframe

 

[Zabazab]

If it's just his spatial stuff, what stops garou from just dodging it? From what it seems the light has to engulf him first and also theirs also the chance garou could just bum rush reinhard with his 40+ different martial arts and force reinhard to fight him up close without giving him the time to do that.

The Divine Protection of Initiative which causes Reinhard's first attack to always land, and the fact that the light of his attack can strike in all directions. It's also not something that requires time, it's just the effect of Reinhard attacking seriously.

 

[Crimsonobu]

I'm voting for Garou btw

 

[Delusionaltx2]

The Divine Protection of Initiative which causes Reinhard's first attack to always land, and the fact that the light of his attack can strike in all directions.

I'm asking what suggests Reinhard would immediately try to lead with his spatial EE nuke

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

No one answered my question from several pages ago btw. Does Garou have his optional abilities here?

 

[Zabazab]

I'm asking what suggests Reinhard would immediately try to lead with his spatial EE nuke

He can tell Garou's abilities at a glance, and he has led with it against several characters both strong and fodder. Also again it's not EE.


In the first place the skill debate has led people away from the fact that this match isn't "Who's the most skilled?" it's "Who wins?", and Garou does not have a means of taking down Reinhard.

 

[MrTayman616]

No one answered my question from several pages ago btw. Does Garou have his optional abilities here?

Uh... wdym? Like potentially High-Mid regen?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Uh... wdym? Like potentially High-Mid regen?

Yeah, that. That functionally makes Garou unkillable unless Reinhard solely uses his EE power I keep hearing about.

 

[Epiccheev]

Doesn't Reinhard have regen neg with blesaing of the reaper? Or does that only apply to slashing/cutring damage he inflicts?

 

[MrTayman616]

Yeah, that. That functionally makes Garou unkillable unless Reinhard solely uses his EE power I keep hearing about.

It's only "potentially" which it's possible for him to achieve via overcoming death over and over.

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah, that. That functionally makes Garou unkillable unless Reinhard solely uses his EE power I keep hearing about.

Layered regen negation. Check his page.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

He can tell Garou's abilities at a glance, and he has led with it against several characters both strong and fodder.

But garou at this point would have developed ways to counter stuff like that based on how his RE works, which also makes it to where he's constantly refining upon martial arts he's also making up new martial arts for the situation, and copying/ developing ways to counter the opponent's abilities

he's already fought other characters who can do that so what suggests that at this point he dosen't already have an answer for that through sheer skill

Also again it's not EE.

sorry thought it was because I thought I saw someone say it was

In the first place the skill debate has led people away from the fact that this match isn't "Who's the most skilled?" it's "Who wins?", and Garou does not have a means of taking down Reinhard.

RE

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Yeah, that. That functionally makes Garou unkillable unless Reinhard solely uses his EE power I keep hearing about.

Reinhard has one layer of high-mid regen negation so thats kinda useless here

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I swear Reinhard sounds like he's a future precognition of the author trying to make someone who could beat Garou ahead of time and simultaneously got close to doing it but failed just due to how utterly specific Garou's own shit is.

 

[Epiccheev]

RE

Reinhard vs REinhard

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Reinhard vs REinhard

The one whos name ends with hard wins

 

[Trxyway]

sorry thought it was because I thought I saw someone say it was

The EE comes with his Dragonsword which i think is restricted

 

[Delusionaltx2]

The EE comes with his Dragonsword which i think is restricted

oh ok then

 

[Zabazab]

But garou at this point would have developed ways to counter stuff like that based on how his RE works, which also makes it to where he's constantly refining upon martial arts he's also making up new martial arts for the situation, and copying/ developing ways to counter the opponent's abilities

RE doesn't save him if he's fatally wounded by a regen-negating space slash.

RE

RE also won't let him force Reinhard asleep for more than a moment or bypass Low-Godly rez.

Also while not brought up a lot, Reinhard himself has RE from gaining Divine Protections to counter new threats, such as Ball-Balancing to take control of a star that was launched towards him, or gaining Fireplay and Waterplay to counter an attack that was neither fire nor water. If the fight goes on long I wouldn't say it's out of the question for Reinhard to gain a DP like Coercion, which is basically just cursed speech.

 

[Phoenks]

RE doesn't save him if he's fatally wounded by a regen-negating space slash.

He just never gets hit by it. Dude can leap into space with a crazy speed advantage and analytical prediction combo. He'll just not get hit and every time Reinhard uses a weapon he'll destroy it.

 

[Zabazab]

He just never gets hit by it. Dude can leap into space with a crazy speed advantage and analytical prediction combo. He'll just not get hit and every time Reinhard uses a weapon he'll destroy it.

DP of Initiative. Reinhard's superior precog. He doesn't have a speed advantage initially either. 1.3 milliseconds is not such an instantaneous amount of time from their perspective.

 

[MrTayman616]

DP of Initiative. Reinhard's superior precog. He doesn't have a speed advantage initially either. 1.3 milliseconds is not such an instantaneous amount of time from their perspective.

Thats a few version past of the current Garou in the fight.

This version increases more than that instantly just because he gets angry.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

RE doesn't save him if he's fatally wounded by a regen-negating space slash.

Re would boost his speed by a blitz factor allowing him to dodge it

RE also won't let him force Reinhard asleep for more than a moment

why a moment?

or bypass Low-Godly rez.

But knocking him out will

Also while not brought up a lot, Reinhard himself has RE from gaining Divine Protections to counter new threats, such as Ball-Balancing to take control of a star that was launched towards him, or gaining Fireplay and Waterplay to counter an attack that was neither fire nor water. If the fight goes on long I wouldn't say it's out of the question for Reinhard to gain a DP like Coercion, which is basically just cursed speech.

Is Reinhard's RE enough to allow him to jump to a blitz-oneshot factor in moments?

 

[Zabazab]

why a moment?
But knocking him out will

Divine Protection to wake him up when he's in danger.

Is Reinhard's RE enough to allow him to jump to a blitz-oneshot factor in moments?

It's less stats more abilities. Like he can just gain the ability to force Garou to stop moving for a bit (Divine Protection of Coercion).

Thats a few version past of the current Garou in the fight.

This version increases more than that instantly just because he gets angry.

Then why bring up 1.3 milliseconds at all?

 

[MrTayman616]

Then why bring up 1.3 milliseconds at all?

...Cuz maybe he's happy? :d