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[Fairy Tail] It ain't just Neo Eclipse that's Low 2-C, Zeref is too (Admin Vote Required)

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[Agree FRA🚂💨]

Scaling is best left to another CRT, so it won't derail this thread.
Tier changes like this require each profile that would be changed to be noted in the same CRT. In fact, this is a scaling CRT cuz Neo Eclipse is alr accepted as Low 2-C

I'll add u to the agreement section btw
 
Since this seems to be a point of contention, Stamina in Fairy Tail is different than magic power. While physical stamina is used for the casting of spells, it's a separate supply of energy. Using magic properly requires a few key components, one of which is a person's physical energy

In fact, we do have statements about the direct use of magical power regarding stamina. A mage, when they use magic, can output an amount of magic power they designate, sort of like a percentage bar. While this impacts stamina, it isn't to the same extent as we see many times throughout the series that characters can fight and survive magic attacks with no magic power. The more magic power you choose to consume in a spell, the weaker you get over the course of a fight, but the stronger the spell is. Mages can exert all of their magic power at once for various things, including attack power, defense, Physical Strength, or into their spells.

Mavis and thus Zeref have an endless amount of stamina thanks to her immortal body, as those with the curse of contradiction can still function for over half a year without sustenance. So, while their physical stamina is limitless, at this point, they don't have limitless magic power at this point in the timeline.
 
@DemonGodMitchAubin @Zackra1799 @Excellence616 @PhoenixFirestorm @Zeinx1 Do you guys think Erza with her full arsenal should scale to this? She was capable of pushing down Dragon SBT Acnologia down to the boat


IMO, it was enough to do knockback like how Ichiya’s ship pushed Acnologia or Giant Lucy throwing Mercuphobia to the Lacrima. But like those two scenarios, it didn’t do any severe or direct damage. So I personally wouldn’t scale it in terms of damaging or overpowering a Dragon.
 
IMO, it was enough to do knockback like how Ichiya’s ship pushed Acnologia or Giant Lucy throwing Mercuphobia to the Lacrima. But like those two scenarios, it didn’t do any severe or direct damage. So I personally wouldn’t scale it in terms of damaging or overpowering a Dragon.
That's fair, wanted to bring it up at the very least
 
It’s more like a curiosity, but wouldn’t this lead to scaling some god-tier characters in Fairy Tail: 100 Years Quest which are comparable to Acnologia? My issue is that the display of power and the feats of these new characters have always been in the planetary level range of threat, as well as their narrative in the story. There was never a universe-ending narrative ever mentioned.

For example, Natsu, even currently, has gotten a lot stronger, but he is still fighting villains that, at least narratively, have always been a threat to the local planet. A universe-ending threat has never been brought up. (Not discussing AP vs DC, just merely narrative consistency inside the story.)

So basically, what I am asking is: do we need to justify that, or do we simply scale everyone relative to Acnologia and Zeref to universe level and that’s it?
 
So basically, what I am asking is: do we need to justify that, or do we simply scale everyone relative to Acnologia and Zeref to universe level and that’s it?
The latter. Not many people scale to either of them anyway, it's more-so god tiers that are as strong as people who threaten the Universe basically as you said.

This kind of chain scaling is very common in Fairy Tail and other verses, however there are some people who would rather exclude the Dragon Gods and most of 100YQ which would be fine if Pre-SBT Acnologia wasn't FH Zeref tier. My opinion on that though is more or less neutral however, it's just what's currently accepted on Acnologia's profile thanks to these scans mostly

 
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Alright, grace has passed with two approvals which is enough for Fairy Tail. Is there anything I missed before I apply this CRT?

If not, feel free to close this, although I do request that Zeref's page should be unlocked so I can apply the new justification
 
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I guess you can count me as being in agreement for now.

But just to add on to the whole power of emotions being “limitless” point mentioned in the thread, I think it’s worth noting that we see Natsu, Gajeel and Wendy, in their battle with Faust, are nearly out of magic power, with them not having enough magic power to continue the fight and barely being able to stand, but we see that, through their determination to save Edolas, they “use the magic meant for tomorrow right now” giving them the boost they needed to defeat Faust

And remember this is in Edolas, where they can’t absorb magic from the atmosphere and earth to rejuvenate themselves, especially with Faust absorbing all the magic for himself at that moment.

Another point worth mentioning, it’s outright stated in 100YQ that emotions can overcome magic and spirit arts alike. Link
 
I guess you can count me as being in agreement for now.

But just to add on to the whole power of emotions being “limitless” point mentioned in the thread, I think it’s worth noting that we see Natsu, Gajeel and Wendy, in their battle with Faust, are nearly out of magic power, with them not having enough magic power to continue the fight and barely being able to stand, but we see that, through their determination to save Edolas, they “use the magic meant for tomorrow right now” giving them the boost they needed to defeat Faust

And remember this is in Edolas, where they can’t absorb magic from the atmosphere and earth to rejuvenate themselves, especially with Faust absorbing all the magic for himself at that moment.

Another point worth mentioning, it’s outright stated in 100YQ that emotions can overcome magic and spirit arts alike. Link
Very good point, it supports Natsu and Acnologia's relativity/superiority and all.
 
Is this consistent though?
When it comes to the chain scaling itself, yeah actually. Mashima makes sure to not have weird chain scaling and has a consistent category of who is Acnologia/Zeref level or not.

If you mean how the Dragon Gods being this level is consistent/accurate despite their lackluster DC, that depends if you actually think Pre-SBT Acnologia scales to FH Zeref or not. If this Acno doesn't scale, neither do the Dragon Gods, Igneel or X793 Natsu for that matter as their scaling entirely depends on him.
 
When it comes to the chain scaling itself, yeah actually. Mashima makes sure to not have weird chain scaling and has a consistent category of who is Acnologia/Zeref level or not.

If you mean how the Dragon Gods being this level is consistent/accurate despite their lackluster DC, that depends if you actually think Pre-SBT Acnologia scales to FH Zeref or not. If this Acno doesn't scale, neither do the Dragon Gods, Igneel or X793 Natsu for that matter as their scaling entirely depends on him.
even if they don't have scaling, is it consistent for fairy heart zeref to scale to tier 2.

like is there a drop of info supporting it
 
even if they don't have scaling, is it consistent for fairy heart zeref to scale to tier 2.

like is there a drop of info supporting it
Fairy Heart Zeref lasts for 5 chapters from 532 to 536 and he's only involved with one fight really which is against Natsu. (Which mostly consists of Natsu one-shotting Zeref, then Zeref one-shotting Natsu, then Natsu getting back up and clashing with Zeref before finally defeating him) There aren't a huge number of statements or feats associated with him, so checking for consistency is a little difficult.
 
even if they don't have scaling, is it consistent for fairy heart zeref to scale to tier 2.

like is there a drop of info supporting it

Mitch did say this:
Zeref’s stats pretty blatantly scale to Neo Eclipse considering that’s how magical power works in FT, and well… If Neo Eclipse is considered Low 2-C, it would scale to Zeref’s stats…

So either Zeref is Low 2-C or Neo Eclipse isn’t Low 2-C, it’s a bit arbitrary to consider them separate stats

Fairy Heart is also said to be limitless and the pinnacle of everything and makes Zeref surpass space-time… It has all the flavor text
And I did say this
Space-Time Control + Apex of All Magic
Zeref mentioned himself that with Fairy Heart, space, time and everything was his to control. This means that, hypothetically, he should be able to do whatever he wants with all of space-time really, which supports the form being capable of significantly affecting the Universe.

He follows it up with how it is the pinnacle of all magic. The last statement is especially important because Fairy Heart being the apex of magic means that his magic would be superior to Neo Eclipse anyway (as well as the Tier 2 feats in the ECSK arc that were declared as outliers).
0533-015.png
I also added on the extent of "space, time, everything" even entailed to prove that it would be a significant change that he could do
Earthland itself contains infinite, eternal magic, but Zackra did respond to this point very well here with how magic and infinity is treated.
 
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Fairy Heart Zeref lasts for 5 chapters from 532 to 536 and he's only involved with one fight really which is against Natsu. (Which mostly consists of Natsu one-shotting Zeref, then Zeref one-shotting Natsu, then Natsu getting back up and clashing with Zeref before finally defeating him) There aren't a huge number of statements or feats associated with him, so checking for consistency is a little difficult.
Fairy Heart Zeref is comparable to Pre SBT Acnologia, who is equal to the Dragon Gods who all show planetary-esque feats
Mitch did say this:

And I did say this

I also added on the extent of "space, time, everything" even entailed to prove that it would be a significant change that he could do
What you guys said did not tackle my point.
You guys tackled if it was legit pretty much. I'm tackling if it's consistent in the entire work for people on this level to show feats of this caliber.
 
Been a while since I've read 100YQ but ain't the elentear arc (the one about reverse Edolas, I think thats the name) about stopping an entire dimension from collapsing due to overflowing magic?
I remember Selene being implied to be capable of stopping it (don't remember the means on how she would do it) and the gang fighting the thing that was causing said overflow of magic and beating it.
Again don't remember the context but maybe it helps on the consistency argument.
 
Fairy Heart Zeref is comparable to Pre SBT Acnologia, who is equal to the Dragon Gods who all show planetary-esque feats

What you guys said did not tackle my point.
You guys tackled if it was legit pretty much. I'm tackling if it's consistent in the entire work for people on this level to show feats of this caliber.
We do actually have a feat similar in the series, the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King had he achieved his full power, would have destroyed the Celestial Spirit World. The Celeistal spirit world has it's own separate space time, and is stated to be an infinite space-time with unlimited time within it. This is a clear-cut low 2-C realm, that the ECSK was going to destroy HAD he reached full power

Had is very important here as he never did get to reach his full power cause Natsu destroyed his core that was trying to fully absorb the Celestial Spirit King, so no this wouldn't affect any character pre x792 as nobody would scale to this hypothetical full power ECSK as he's alone in a scaling vacuum

However, by Zeref's own admission, Fairy Heart grants him the pinnacle of magic and would be above the full power of the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King, Acnologia being stated to be the strongest character in the Series would also put him above the Full power of the ECSK as well. So even with just the Fairy Heart, he would scale above the peak of a character who was going to reach low 2-C in power.
 
Fairy Heart Zeref is comparable to Pre SBT Acnologia, who is equal to the Dragon Gods who all show planetary-esque feats
I could be in favour of deleting that line of scaling actually, given that Fairy Heart Zeref would be infinitely above Pre-SBT Acnologia as per my arguments, and thus the latter wouldn't be comparable to the former in this case due to how infinite AP works.

The statements asserting relativity both come from people who are ignorant of Fairy Heart's true power since Fairy Heart's true power is a secret, only known to the Guild Master of Fairy Tail and their successors (and the entire guild afterwards), but not necessarily the Spriggans. In other words, they just think Zeref may have a chance against him while not knowing the full stor



This would, like I said, remove the Low 2-C scaling for pretty much everyone except FH Zeref, FH Mavis, SDFF/SFDM Natsu and SBT Acnologia. However, I'm neutral on this proposition but if that is what's gonna favour the CRT, so be it.
What you guys said did not tackle my point.
You guys tackled if it was legit pretty much. I'm tackling if it's consistent in the entire work for people on this level to show feats of this caliber.
You mean if there were more feats from people like him on his level? Other than Natsu exhausting an inexhaustible source of magic, there is actually one narrative from SBT Acnologia, where he mentions that with space-time magic, he will rise above the limits of space-time and destroy the world. The latter is said multiple times during his fight.

The important thing to mention is how he's gonna do it. If Acnologia's world destruction narrative only included the planet, he wouldn't need space and time magic to do so, especially when he is already 5-A in his pre-SBT form (and that he was already a threat to the planet in his pre-SBT form), so the fact that he's gonna destroy the world using space-time heavily implies he's going to wreck the Universe here.



A small thing to mention is that because of this detail, world here means Universe, similar to how Zeref's "world" statements mean the Universe here. This Acnologia is also top 1 in the verse, as accepted on his profile so that is also a small thing that supports it.

There are also DC feats from people inferior to both in the entire work here as well.

* We have Natsu in the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King arc (which is canon) being capable of destroying the ECSK's core, which destroyed the entire starry skied dimension that was his stomach (and he tanked the explosion). That space was said to be a Universe by Happy.


* Right after that, the Celestial Spirit King reverted what happened to the Celestial Spirit World, turning it back into normal. Keep in mind, this world is also infinite in size.


* Mard Geer said that the ECSK had thrown both Earthland and the Celestial Spirit World into chaos, two separate universes of their own right. While the specific tier within Tier 2 is neither here or there, that's a Tier 2 statement at minimum.
https://imgur.com/a/07pZWCs

* Ultear was capable of creating and shrinking an infinite amount of futures, to which she even elaborated to be parallel worlds/universes (Heikou Sekai = Parallel world, which is context is almost always a parallel universe, especially when she's shrinking them with her Time Magic; planets don't have temporal dimensions lol).


While all of these are currently considered as accepted feats that are simply outliers due to the Spriggans having garbo DC, Neo Eclipse and Fairy Heart surpasses all of them and has it's own feats as I showed in the OP. If anything, compared to these previous feats (especially Ultear's), Fairy Heart by raw effect alone can seem lackluster compared to previous feats despite both being considered as legitimately Low 2-C, so in a way, it's kind of a "reverse" outlier here.
 
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We do actually have a feat similar in the series, the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King had he achieved his full power, would have destroyed the Celestial Spirit World. The Celeistal spirit world has it's own separate space time, and is stated to be an infinite space-time with unlimited time within it. This is a clear-cut low 2-C realm, that the ECSK was going to destroy HAD he reached full power

Had is very important here as he never did get to reach his full power cause Natsu destroyed his core that was trying to fully absorb the Celestial Spirit King, so no this wouldn't affect any character pre x792 as nobody would scale to this hypothetical full power ECSK as he's alone in a scaling vacuum

However, by Zeref's own admission, Fairy Heart grants him the pinnacle of magic and would be above the full power of the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King, Acnologia being stated to be the strongest character in the Series would also put him above the Full power of the ECSK as well. So even with just the Fairy Heart, he would scale above the peak of a character who was going to reach low 2-C in power.
...

fuggggg

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Zackra1799 ain't there a statement of Acnologia cliffing edens zero chars too?
 
Ok, I first wanna say it's wild that Zeref is actually going to become Low 2-C. I mean I can absolutely believe it in the current landscape of power scaling, but still, it's wild to see. I still have my personal doubts... But those doubts apply to like the majority of verses that have reached universal levels via means like this, so that's not exactly a comment about specifically Zeref, but the landscape as a whole. So if we actually do fully accept this.

Obviously Fairy Heart Zeref becomes Low 2-C because he's the one who performed the feat

Savage Dragon Fire Natsu becomes Low 2-C because he literally overpowered Fairy Heart Zeref and destroyed the very power that was able to perform the feat

Pre-Space Between Time Dragon Form Acnologia also becomes Low 2-C because Fairy Heart Zeref is only implied to perhaps be a match or a threat to this version of Acnologia, signifying that it isn't guaranteed if this power will surpass the good ole Acnologia. Obviously the Post-Space Between Time Acnologia scales above all of this as well because absorbing the Space Between Time made him a gazillion times stronger and verbatim stated to be Top 1 in the verse.

Igneel in both his Half-Dead and Prime states become Low 2-C because he can fight and knock out this Acnologia and he's still getting hype to this very day

Seven Flames Natsu scaels to Low 2-C as well because he can hurt and kill Post-Space Between Time Acnologia

Now here's where things get weird

The Dragon Gods do not really scale to Pre-Space Between Time Acnologia anymore based on the reveals of the current arc. As we know, Earthland Faris has stolen the power of Pre-Space Between Time Dragon Form Acnologia's right arm and she is relative to the Natsu who DOG-WALKED an Unsealed Black Magic Amped Dragon Form Aldoron. Ignia goes on to say that she's kidding if she thinks she's Acnologia level with just this right arm. This means Pre-Space Between Time Acnologia>>>All versions of the Non-Ignia Dragon Gods, meaning there's no reason they scale directly to Low 2-C just by the statement Elefseria made. Additionally, Elefseria's statement is actually in hindsight not reliable Took me a long time to accept that one. Elefseria only states that these Dragon Gods are "SAID" to be relative to Acnologia, meaning it's just rumors and baseless rando opinions, not Elefseria stating facts or his own personal knowledge, making these comparisons dubious.

HOWEVER, there is a chance we could maybe grant "Possibly Low 2-C" to them off of one specific individual. Natsu. We see that Ignia's Flame Natsu was so strong that it overcame his own fire resistance and severely burned his arms the same way that Savage Dragon Fire Natsu did, implying that the forms strengths are at the very least similar, so this should make Ignia's Flame Natsu "At least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C", with this Natsu verbatim saying that he cannot beat a Full Power Sealed Ignia by himself, so if accepted, we would scale the Sealed and Unsealed Dragon Gods to "At least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C". As for Unsealed Ignia, Black Faris, and more... Well that's new scaling, so it'd have to be discussed

Man I forgot how tiring it was typing all this...
 
We do actually have a feat similar in the series, the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King had he achieved his full power, would have destroyed the Celestial Spirit World. The Celeistal spirit world has it's own separate space time, and is stated to be an infinite space-time with unlimited time within it. This is a clear-cut low 2-C realm, that the ECSK was going to destroy HAD he reached full power

Had is very important here as he never did get to reach his full power cause Natsu destroyed his core that was trying to fully absorb the Celestial Spirit King, so no this wouldn't affect any character pre x792 as nobody would scale to this hypothetical full power ECSK as he's alone in a scaling vacuum

However, by Zeref's own admission, Fairy Heart grants him the pinnacle of magic and would be above the full power of the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King, Acnologia being stated to be the strongest character in the Series would also put him above the Full power of the ECSK as well. So even with just the Fairy Heart, he would scale above the peak of a character who was going to reach low 2-C in power.
Damn bruh you ninja'd me AND explained the ECSK feat even better than what I did. Thanks tho.
The planet was going to burst yeah, not the dimension

Although Selene's power did passively effect other dimensions
Selene's power could support the DGs scaling this high but as I said earlier, I don't mind nuking the Pre-SBT scaling so
 
The Dragon Gods do not really scale to Pre-Space Between Time Acnologia anymore based on the reveals of the current arc. As we know, Earthland Faris has stolen the power of Pre-Space Between Time Dragon Form Acnologia's right arm and she is relative to the Natsu who DOG-WALKED an Unsealed Black Magic Amped Dragon Form Aldoron. Ignia goes on to say that she's kidding if she thinks she's Acnologia level with just this right arm. This means Pre-Space Between Time Acnologia>>>All versions of the Non-Ignia Dragon Gods, meaning there's no reason they scale directly to Low 2-C just by the statement Elefseria made. Additionally, Elefseria's statement is actually in hindsight not reliable Took me a long time to accept that one. Elefseria only states that these Dragon Gods are "SAID" to be relative to Acnologia, meaning it's just rumors and baseless rando opinions, not Elefseria stating facts or his own personal knowledge, making these comparisons dubious.

HOWEVER, there is a chance we could maybe grant "Possibly Low 2-C" to them off of one specific individual. Natsu. We see that Ignia's Flame Natsu was so strong that it overcame his own fire resistance and severely burned his arms the same way that Savage Dragon Fire Natsu did, implying that the forms strengths are at the very least similar, so this should make Ignia's Flame Natsu "At least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C", with this Natsu verbatim saying that he cannot beat a Full Power Sealed Ignia by himself, so if accepted, we would scale the Sealed and Unsealed Dragon Gods to "At least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C". As for Unsealed Ignia, Black Faris, and more... Well that's new scaling, so it'd have to be discussed

Man I forgot how tiring it was typing all this...
Yeah I'm fine with this myself tbh
 
Actually... Natsu saying he can't beat a Sealed Ignia by himself when knowing he can beat Fairy Heart Zeref kinda implies that Sealed Ignia>Fairy Heart Zeref... So maybe the Dragon Gods do get full Low 2-C...
 
...

fuggggg

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Zackra1799 ain't there a statement of Acnologia cliffing edens zero chars too?
You mean this one?

According to this person, Mashima was asked in a twitter space to rate his characters in strength now that Edens Zero was over and he said he tends to think Acnologia was the strongest and Natsu was the most popular. The translation goes: "The strongest? I think it's Acnologia"

 
Actually... Natsu saying he can't beat a Sealed Ignia by himself when knowing he can beat Fairy Heart Zeref kinda implies that Sealed Ignia>Fairy Heart Zeref... So maybe the Dragon Gods do get full Low 2-C...
Or maybe it's because he was only able to beat Zeref because he had a wild emotional super-amp and he can't necessarily replicate that level of power in a whim?
 
Or maybe it's because he was only able to beat Zeref because he had a wild emotional super-amp and he can't necessarily replicate that level of power in a whim?
Doubt that, as Ignia himself tells Natsu that they had surpassed Acnologia, and Natsu knows of the Acnologia that he himself fought the year before, yet still concedes inferiority here. Ignia is talking about Alvarez Arc Acnologia because he knows that Acnologia killed his father, which was during that arc, but he doesn't know that Acnologia lost to Seven Flames Natsu, he assumed it was a 1v1. Thus he would be talking about Pre-SBT Acnologia who was already comparable to FH Zeref here.

Natsu even considers 50% Mercphobia as someone he had to collectively beat with the guild because he reminded them of Acnologia so

.
In fact, Ignia's flames and Savage Flames share a very similar narrative here where they both are amplified due to Natsu wanting to protect his friends, both of them having Natsu go berserk, both of them having the user wanting to "burn it all" essentially, and both of them needing to be saved by Lucy. The parallels are way too many to dismiss that narrative intent as merely cool flavour. (EDIT: Couldn't add all images but the important ones should be sufficient)


The former should even be superior to the latter given the arms that were burnt off as Mitch had mentioned, as well as the flames being something that was completely unprecedented to both Natsu and Lucy. In the latter's case, Natsu was completely aware of the fight, yet in the former's, he lost track of what happened, implying that he lost control from that raw power. Similar to how Acnologia did when he gained SBT.
 
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Which other legit Low 2-C feats can these set of characters be scaled to?
As Zackra and I have mentioned, pretty much all of the Low 2-C feats in the Eclipse Celestial Spirit King arc, as well as Acnologia using space-time magic (and part of Zeref's Neo Eclipse plan) to destroy the world (when he previously was tryna destroy the planet without it)
 
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