Team Fortress 2 Upgrade and revision CTR (Tier 8/7 Upgrades and FTL speed)

[AmonInChains]

Rivals guys doesn't fully scale because it's a big jump solely, even with other Sub-Rel calc supporting it.
TF2 dudes otherwise have stated speeds below those values and contradicts whats happening in lore.

They are not comparable at all.
(Don't take this as my response to the previous discussion btw, I'm still quite busy this week).

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Rivals guys doesn't fully scale because it's a big jump solely,

i mean, i think it's a pretty gross approximation.

Yes, it's an attack that goes to REL speed, but they don't fully scale because it's ambiguius due of the fact that Supersonic is more consistent, but they still don't take it as an outlier (same logic should apply here on my opinion).

even with other Sub-Rel calc supporting it.

There's a massivly hypersonic proposition too as support the Sol scaling

TF2 dudes otherwise have stated speeds below those values and contradicts whats happening in lore.

All these statements come from pieces pf lore and that the tf2 universe implemented, u can get the source in the Sol section about these weapons.

(Doesn't take this as my response to the previous discussion btw, I'm still quite busy this week).

then again don't worry man, life sometime is f*cked and busy, so u don't need to justify yourself this many times.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Do we have any consensus on the tier 7 stuff?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Do we have any consensus on the tier 7 stuff?

hopefully.

The feats happen with non directs hit from the weapons while the mercs can tank direct hits from those, so i think we are fine

 

[Lonkitt]

or you can do like marvel rivals and call it a day.

Whataboutism isn't an argument in TF2's favour

You can't just say "but the other verse does this" as a justification for FTL scaling in this verse

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Whataboutism isn't an argument in TF2's favour

You can't just say "but the other verse does this" as a justification for FTL scaling in this verse

I think he was appealing to the wiki standards demonstrated there, but point taken nonetheless.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Whataboutism isn't an argument in TF2's favour

You can't just say "but the other verse does this" as a justification for FTL scaling in this verse

My example was to show that there are cases that it should be debatable whether or not we can give an higher scaling to a verse.

We got something that can be consistently reacted apon (this time even more consistently than rivals as airblast is not even the only thing that can parry the projectile, because i don't think u can deviate wolverine's ult), but there's some "eh idk about it" and i get it so this is why i came with the Marvel Rivals example, because this was the same case and i think we could have came to the same conclusion.

Honestly this isn't even the first time we got this type of scaling where a character as an exponentially higher value than his base one and it's not cosidered outlier (then again i got the Boll o' lightning argument to support higher speeds so i don't think outliers are even the problem, it's there in the thread and u can read it).


Anyway ya'll not even giving me a reason to not take into consideration this type of scaling exept "nah man".

 

[Armorchompy]

Please don't take me as agreeing with tier 7 btw I think that's ridiculous. I'm just not voting against cause I haven't read through the resulting debate.

Anyway ya'll not even giving me a reason to not take into consideration this type of scaling exept "nah man".

Do you really need more than "It's based on shaky logic and not consistent with 99% of the other weapons used in the game"

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Do you really need more than "It's based on shaky logic and not consistent with 99% of the other weapons used in the game"

Sigh... ok fine no FTL reaction speed.

could we at least mantain the attack speed of the weapons?

 

[Armorchompy]

could we at least mantain the attack speed of the weapons?

Probably yeah

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Probably yeah

Ok at least that, thank you

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Ok tier 7 tf2, what do ya'll think?

I do belive that there should be a discussion out of the cowmangler 5000 charged shoot calc

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Probably yeah

Also is the Boll o' Lightning stuff fine?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Literally though. Marvel Rivals has two Calcs for it's rating and went for possibly. That is genuinely more restraint than most verses and supporters in said verses have, with one or two calcs with little to no support anywhere near the rating being used frequently.

Ok tier 7 tf2, what do ya'll think?

I do belive that there should be a discussion out of the cowmangler 5000 charged shoot calc

And this... okay I'm gonna be frank, it's really pushing it. Rocket Jumling exists, it's an argument, but tier 7 is light-years beyond what's actually shown consistently for this verse, which is generally tier 9 with some scattered tier 8 stuff. High 8-C is already iffy. Tier 7 is... yeah.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Literally though. Marvel Rivals has two Calcs for it's rating and went for possibly. That is genuinely more restraint than most verses and supporters in said verses have, with one or two calcs with little to no support anywhere near the rating being used frequently.

And this... okay I'm gonna be frank, it's really pushing it. Rocket Jumling exists, it's an argument, but tier 7 is light-years beyond what's actually shown consistently for this verse, which is generally tier 9 with some scattered tier 8 stuff. High 8-C is already iffy. Tier 7 is... yeah.

The stuff that scales to the mercs is tier 8 tecnically, but after the usage of multipliers we have reached tier 7 mercs... tier 7 is more deep with Hale but i don't think there will be a problem with tier 7 hale.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The stuff that scales to the mercs is tier 8 tecnically, but after the usage of multipliers we have reached tier 7 mercs... tier 7 is more deep with Hale but i don't think there will be a problem with tier 7 hale.

Tier 7 Hale is fine. Tier 7 mercs is not at all. Same guys who die instantly to 8-B cart explosions BTW, not exactly the kind of verse to put at that level.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Tier 7 Hale is fine.

Thank GOD

Tier 7 mercs is not at all. Same guys who die instantly to 8-B cart explosions BTW, not exactly the kind of verse to put at that level.

The stuff that scales to the mercs to tier 8-A is afterwards of the Gravel War (the gravel war mercs are like baseline 8-B while the cart upscales 54 tons of tnt if the memory is correct), where they become exponentially stronger than before, not to forget that the same thing happens to the Australium chase mercs where they do eviscerate the MVM army that it was as strong as them during the Robot war.


We could do some adjustments with the values honestly, i would be pretty open to give 109 tons of tnt as a baseline instead of 1,4 kilotons as yeah, it's quiete ridiculus and the cow mangler charged shots are still 4/12 times the shots that the weapons contain just in 1 single hit, and i do admit that it would break the current scaling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Thank GOD

The stuff that scales to the mercs to tier 8-A is afterwards of the Gravel War (the gravel war mercs are like baseline 8-B while the cart upscales 54 tons of tnt if the memory is correct), where they become exponentially stronger than before, not to forget that the same thing happens to the Australium chase mercs where they do eviscerate the MVM army.

We could do some adjustments with the values honestly, i would be pretty open to give 109 tons of tnt as a baseline instead of 1,4 kilotons as yeah, it's quiete ridiculus and the cow mangler charged shots are still 4/12 times the shots that the weapons contain just in 1 single hit, and i do admit that it would break the current scaling.

I'm going to be frank: no. 8-A is still contradicting most of the verse. Like I said: High 8-C is pushing it. I'm not saying go back to 9-B/9-A hell but I am saying that when the whole squad has a hard fight with something proven to be High 8-C, they ain't jumping to over 10x that because reasons. I don't even like 8-B, what do you think I feel about 8-A?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm going to be frank: no. 8-A is still contradicting most of the verse. Like I said: High 8-C is pushing it. I'm not saying go back to 9-B/9-A hell but I am saying that when the whole squad has a hard fight with something proven to be High 8-C, they ain't jumping to over 10x that because reasons. I don't even like 8-B, what do you think I feel about 8-A?

To be absolutly fair the calc the calc should have been magnetude 4 from the start (15 tons of tnt).

Because yes, we don't see much "destruction" (altho we do have some small exemples like pyro burning down a town in 2 minutes, and implications that it did it again with 2fort or the fact that they did fend off a global alien invasion by themself of spaceships capable of going out of orbit, or the whole black box being implied to disintegrate/vaporize tanks or overall weapons that can create city block sized explosion) but i don't want to go back to a time where they had the weapons but they did not scale to it, or this being an outlier (whitch would be worse).

Idk man, i'm in conflict at the moment, what's your idea?

On my opinion stuff that is baseline 8-B should be fine, but we don't scale the mercs physically to stuff that is beyond that.

 

[Uradial50]

Finally, there are multiple instances of the mercenaries being completely OBLITERATED by weaponry.

On the other hand, I don't understand how they narratively intend for them to rise above the weapons they use literally everywhere in the story.

I think you missed the point that the blue mercs are canonically weaker than the red mercs themselves, which would be consistent considering red scout tanked 3 rockets while blue demoman can get oneshot by 1 rocket

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I think you missed the point that the blue mercs are canonically weaker than the red mercs themselves, which would be consistent considering red scout tanked 3 rockets while blue demoman can get oneshot by 1 rocket

That's a whole can of worms.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I think you missed the point that the blue mercs are canonically weaker than the red mercs themselves, which would be consistent considering red scout tanked 3 rockets while blue demoman can get oneshot by 1 rocket

yeah, pretty much that

 

[Uradial50]

"Since the dawn of time, Man has gazed warily with fear and contempt into the cosmos. One luminescent beacon in particular has looked back, gliding and heckling us like a giant white space jerk, the Moon. Now, thanks to the ingenious contrivers at Goliathon, we have at our disposal a means of heckling back and then some! This imperious metal behemoth will make a superb center-piece to any laboratory or lounge and allows you to begin a well-rounded bombardment of any Moon habitation you fancy, all from a comfy chair. Small-man syndrome or a mid-life crisis are easily counteracted with this beauty, and have we mentioned destruction? The Moon Hater is second to none in sheer annihilatory potential. Factoids in its easily digested three thousand page manual suggest that it is capable of obliterating a section of Bolivian rain forest twenty-two miles square, jaguars and all! All that adds up to some earnest Moon-murdering fun!"

There is still hope for Moon Level TF2.
The argument is this: The Yeti upscales any weapon made from earth right? well, Apparentally this thing exist and it was found in Dr Grodbort's Website. Its where the laser weapons came from (Yes, the weapons was a collab all along), Its debatable that this "Universe" is connected to the TF2 Verse. Because of the weapons coming from the collab and references from the website being in the comics.

Theres even more details about the manmelter:

Im sure you guys can figure it out to make it work

 

[Uradial50]

@LandonTheGuy @Rex_Eckles

 

[LandonTheGuy]

"Since the dawn of time, Man has gazed warily with fear and contempt into the cosmos. One luminescent beacon in particular has looked back, gliding and heckling us like a giant whitspace jerk, the Moon. Now, thanks to the ingenious contrivers at Goliathon, we have at our disposal a means of heckling back and then some! This imperious metal behemoth will make a superb center-piece to any laboratory or lounge and allows you to begin a well-rounded bombardment of any Moon habitation you fancy, all from a comfy chair. Small-man syndrome or a mid-life crisis are easily counteracted with this beauty, and have we mentioned destruction? The Moon Hater is second to none in sheer annihilatory potential. Factoids in its easily digested three thousand page manual suggest that it is capable of obliterating a section of Bolivian rain forest twenty-two miles square, jaguars and all! All that adds up to some earnest Moon-murdering fun!"

There is still hope for Moon Level TF2.
The argument is this: The Yeti upscales any weapon made from earth right? well, Apparentally this thing exist and it was found in Dr Grodbort's Website. Its where the laser weapons came from (Yes, the weapons was a collab all along), Its debatable that this "Universe" is connected to the TF2 Verse. Because of the weapons coming from the collab and references from the website being in the comics.

Theres even more details about the manmelter:

Im sure you guys can figure it out to make it work

yeah, there are 2 problems mostly to this:

1- You got to prove that the moonheater is in the tf2 universe (Witch is unlikely, but hey! i think in the australian crismas update there's a list of the weapons that were on the rocket so it's possible).

2- We got already an outlier problem (and i will prolly have to do a revision on the payload calc so we get the large town end of it) but ig we should be covered on 8-B mercs for now.

3- The Yeti statement works with commonly sold weapons so we need proof that it's commonly sold in the tf2 universe.

 

[Uradial50]

yeah, there are 2 problems mostly to this:

1- You got to prove that the moonheater is in the tf2 universe (Witch is unlikely, but hey! i think in the australian crismas update there's a list of the weapons that were on the rocket so it's possible).

2- We got already an outlier problem (and i will prolly have to do a revision on the payload calc so we get the large town end of it) but ig we should be covered on 8-B mercs for now.

3- The Yeti statement works with commonly sold weapons so we need proof that it's commonly sold in the tf2 universe.

I already proved that laser weapons that were shown in the TF2 Universe are more likely from Dr Grodbort's Universe. (Which implies its connected)
I dont have the thinking right now for it, which is why I mentioned "Im sure you guys can figure it out to make it work"
Which is debatable.

Okay?

No??? Thats not the statement was even all about, These researchers (That saxton hale somehow sneaked into) stated that nothing made on earth was able to stop it and they managed to calm it down. That specific statement didnt say anything about "commonly sold weapons".
Also if your asking if it has been sold, it was literally stated to be sold.
Again, The Dr Grodbort's Universe and TF2 Universe should be connected, Considering the weapons they got were from

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I already proved that laser weapons that were shown in the TF2 Universe are more likely from Dr Grodbort's Universe. (Which implies its connected)

Problem is another, the weapon it's sold in the Dr Grodbort's Universe and not in the TF2 one.

I dont have the thinking right now for it, which is why I mentioned "Im sure you guys can figure it out to make it work"

I ain't no magic man, so we both need time to think

No??? Thats not the statement was even all about, These researchers (That saxton hale somehow sneaked into) stated that nothing made on earth was able to stop it and they managed to calm it down. That specific statement didnt say anything about "commonly sold weapons".

why do you think we don't scale Hale to nukes?

Also if your asking if it has been sold, it was literally stated to be sold.
Again, The Dr Grodbort's Universe and TF2 Universe should be connected, Considering the weapons they got were from

Ok, find me any proof that it's common knowlege for ppl in the tf2 that the multiverse is real and then we can get something started, because yes there could be something out of it.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm going to be frank: no. 8-A is still contradicting most of the verse. Like I said: High 8-C is pushing it. I'm not saying go back to 9-B/9-A hell but I am saying that when the whole squad has a hard fight with something proven to be High 8-C, they ain't jumping to over 10x that because reasons. I don't even like 8-B, what do you think I feel about 8-A?

If consistency is the problem, i've done another calc for the Black box statement that got it at 8-B+.

I can get the payload at at 8-A/Low 7-C if i calc the destruction of the Patagonia feat as it does a massive ass crater on the ice so we getting the inconsistency out of the way too.

I could try to calc the Pyro feat too if that can help my case.

We both agree that the 8-A+/tier 7 stuff is out of the way for the mercs (physically), but i do belive that 8-B/baseline 8-A has some consistency.

 

[IDK3465]

I haven't been keeping tabs on the thread all that much, but I kinda need to agree with Reaper regarding the tier 7 stuff, it's just too much of a reach in terms of where the mercs are usually shown to be at for me to realistically consider. Saxton Hale, on the other hand? Yeah, scale that mf up to high heaven.
Same story with the FTL stuff, it's simply too inconsistent with the other weapons in the game, and just... feels off imo, so I gotta disagree there as well

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I haven't been keeping tabs on the thread all that much, but I kinda need to agree with Reaper regarding the tier 7 stuff, it's just too much of a reach in terms of where the mercs are usually shown to be at for me to realistically consider. Saxton Hale, on the other hand? Yeah, scale that mf up to high heaven.

yeah i agree too about the tier 7 stuff, but i do belive that we do have some consistency on tier 8-B/Baseline 8-A arguments

Same story with the FTL stuff, it's simply too inconsistent with the other weapons in the game, and just... feels off imo, so I gotta disagree there as well

Pretty much agreed with that one too (i should fix the proposed scaling on the thread so ppl can have an idea of the ctr state)

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I haven't been keeping tabs on the thread all that much, but I kinda need to agree with Reaper regarding the tier 7 stuff, it's just too much of a reach in terms of where the mercs are usually shown to be at for me to realistically consider. Saxton Hale, on the other hand? Yeah, scale that mf up to high heaven.
Same story with the FTL stuff, it's simply too inconsistent with the other weapons in the game, and just... feels off imo, so I gotta disagree there as well

I get it, sad

 

[LandonTheGuy]

feels off imo, so I gotta disagree there as well

I get it, sad

Don't worry guys, in the next TF2 update By Valve we will have MFTL+ feats

 

[LandonTheGuy]

@IDK3465 @DaReaperMan gave a more realistic scaling as tier 7 is meh and added this calc to give tier 8-B tf2 more consistency

-Black Box vaporizes tanks - 81.21 Tons of tnt (City Block level+)

Scaling:

• Gravel war mercs (and whoever scales to them): 81.21 tons of tnt (city block level+), 178.43 Kilotons (Large Town Level) with sub-Atomization weapons (considering they are prior of the robot wars, and the robots have been stated to be stronger than them i guess it sould be a corrected scaling the vaporization feats of the Robot war only to the robot war mercs) and Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed (due of multipliers in Mannpower), 2.5 c (FTL) with laser weapons.

• Robot War mercs (and whoever scales to them): 109,2 tons of tnt (Multi city block level), 218,4 tons of tnt (Multi city block level) with upgrades, 163,5128327 Megatons (Mountain Level) with sub-atomization weapons, with upgrades 873.6 tons of tnt/2,72 kilotons 327,0256654 Megatons (Mountain Level) with sub-Atomization weapons, 2.62 Kilotons/8,16 Kilotons (Small Town level/Town level) with crit canteen 981,0769962 Megatons (Mountain Level+) with sub-Atomization weapons. Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed , 2.5 c (FTL) with laser weapons.

• Australium chase mercs (and whoever scales to them): They should be above the previus scaling as they have shown the capability of demolishing Grey mann's army (some of them bare handed and naked and without breaking a sweat) whitch were capable of harming and killing the mercs (even with upgrades). So yeah, At least 2.62 Kilotons/8,16 Kilotons (Small Town level/Town level). Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed, 2.5 c (FTL) with laser weapons.

• Hale tier (God tier of the verse): 2.94 Gigatons of tnt (Large Mountain) (Hale can survive a crit charged projectile of the pomson in VSH, said crit can deal 3 times the base damage, and as said before the mercs upscale their Robot war self in Australium chase so it's fair to assume their equipment does that too) and as a cherry on the top of the cake 8.82 Gigatons of tnt (Island Level) with Saxton Punch! (As this one deals a crit damage, so we give him the 3 times multiplier too) and Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm going to be quite blunt: Why are we using crits here? plus, has Saxton ever harmed anyone who could then harm him? We don't scale AP to Durability.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I'm going to be quite blunt: Why are we using crits here? plus, has Saxton ever harmed anyone who could then harm him? We don't scale AP to Durability.

The Yeti could draw some blood.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

@IDK3465 @DaReaperMan gave a more realistic scaling as tier 7 is meh and added this calc to give tier 8-B tf2 more consistency

-Black Box vaporizes tanks - 81.21 Tons of tnt (City Block level+)

Don't forget, the Robot War mercs get up to mach 5.39 with speed upgrades.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm going to be quite blunt: Why are we using crits here? plus, has Saxton ever harmed anyone who could then harm him? We don't scale AP to Durability.

He can tank tank an hit on vsh of the weapon, don't got any footage on me but saxton spawns with 1000 health i belive and the weapon does no where near to one shot him.

but hale shouldn't scale to saxton punch in dura.

Also the mercs do have ways of getting crits on commands in MVM (canteens), should we do a value for that too?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Don't forget, the Robot War mercs get up to mach 5.39 with speed upgrades.

oh yeah, i'll add them later

 

[IDK3465]

@IDK3465 @DaReaperMan gave a more realistic scaling as tier 7 is meh and added this calc to give tier 8-B tf2 more consistency

-Black Box vaporizes tanks - 81.21 Tons of tnt (City Block level+)

I'm still slightly iffy on scaling the mercs this high, but it is a hell of a lot better than before, so I'd say High 8-C, possibly 8-B+ works for me (sorry in advance for ruining the formatting, it'll probably suck after this CRT ends lol)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I'm still slightly iffy on scaling the mercs this high, but it is a hell of a lot better than before, so I'd say High 8-C, possibly 8-B+ works for me

Noice (altho at this point baseline 8-A isn't too much outlierish)

(sorry in advance for ruining the formatting, it'll probably suck after this CRT ends lol)

Honestly, this is at least 2/3 CTR worth of stuff so i wouldn't be surprised of that lmao