[Fairy Tail] Stat Upgrades Part I: X784 Speed Upgrades (Gajeel/Wendy)

[Saqphire]

Relativistic Combat/Reaction Speed
The calculation of Gajeel dodging light has been accepted by a CGM, which would bump the ratings from Sub-Relativistic to Relativistic for everyone that scales to Gajeel.

The fight the feat comes from is specifically mentioned by Mashima to have been omitted in the manga due to time constraints.


Rel+ - SOL Attack Speed
Having looked at feats involving Loke, there's a feat from Wendy which involves her Sky Dragon's Roar clashing with Loke's Regulus Beam which is accepted to be a SOL attack. Having spoken to some people off-site, the feat should be determined to be "At least Relativistic+" in attack speed here. I think it could be Speed of Light outright though from how the feat is portrayed but either end is fine.


Consistency
Gajeel was capable of speedblitzing Laxus' lightning, an accepted feat for ages that has been calculated to Sub-Relativistic. The feat above essentially replaces the feat mentioned in this section, but I figured I'd mention it anyway given that consistency is a favoured trait here.
Scaling Implications

Spoiler: Gajeel Feat Upscales From the Verse Page

• The characters like Base Ezel are scaled to be 4x faster than Gajeel's feat in OP (91.8% SoL)
• The characters like X791 Grand Magic Games Arc to Beginning of Tartaros Arc Lightning Fire Dragon Mode Natsu, X791 End of Tartaros Arc Base Natsu, X791 Devil Slayer Mark Gray, and X791 Iron Shadow Dragon Mode Gajeel are scaled unquantifiably higher than Base Ezel
• According to the verse page, the characters like God Seed Doom are scaled to be 8x faster than Gajeel's feat in OP (183.6% SoL)
  • However, I actually disagree with this line of scaling, as God Seed Doom is extremely fodder. He was only capable of overwhelming a Base Wendy and Carla, and when the fodder Fairy Tail members were amped by Wendy, he was completely stomped by them. I think GSD should simply be 4x Gajeel's scaling due to him scaling above X792 fodder Fairy Tail characters who scale above the Alvarez Soldiers who scale above Tartaros Demons, including Base Ezel
    • This affects everyone who scales to him like Kiria, Lisanna and Lucy

GSD is not that guy pal

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• The characters like X791 End of Tartaros Arc Dragon Force Natsu and X792 Dragon Force Wendy are scaled to be 4x faster than Base Ezel (367.2% SoL) (previously, it used to be a 4x upscale from characters who are 10% SOL but the previous upscaling goes against the upscaling standards anyway due to the difference being 1.25x. The upscaling requires the gap to be between 1.1-1.2x, atleast according to this post)
  • Haku got blitzed and one-shot horribly by Dragon Force Wendy, which is already accepted on her profile. And he blitzed base Wendy with his SOL attack so there's no inconsistency here.

• All other characters upscale or downscale from Haku or Selene, so they're not relevant here

Spoiler: Wendy Feat Scaling

Scorpio's Sand Buster was capable of keeping up with Wendy's roar to form a Unison Raid

Sherria's Sky God's Bellow scales to Wendy's roar because they clashed equally with them

Also before yall say anything, the anime has been accepted to be canon for ages now.

Staff Votes:
Agree: KingTempest (Gajeel feat), Nierre (Gajeel feat + Wendy feat being rel+), Random-Helper323 (Gajeel feat)
Disagree: Random-Helper323 (Wendy feat)
Neutral: KingTempest (Wendy feat)
Non-Staff Votes:
Agree: Me, Kachon123, DragonZeroNova (Gajeel feat), DailyFairy (Gajeel feat), LoudestProcedure
Disagree: DragonZeroNova (Wendy feat being SOL), DailyFairy (leaning for Wendy)
Neutral: DragonZeroNova (Wendy feat being rel+)

 

[KingTempest]

I'm fine with the scaling but what you need to do now is talk about all the scaling this affects cause there's many multipliers built off of it

Edit: this is regarding the gajeel feat. for the wendy one, i need more time to think

 

[Saqphire]

I'm fine with the scaling but what you need to do now is talk about all the scaling this affects cause there's many multipliers built off of it

That's fine, I can make a blog or a spoiler list from that

 

[Nierre]

I can agree to at least Rel+ Attack Speed for Wendy. Looks like she fired it off first so that's reasonable.

Sub-Rel+ Combat Speed upgrade is fine as well.

 

[Kachon123]

 

[Saqphire]

Edit: this is regarding the gajeel feat. for the wendy one, i need more time to think

I'll put you as neutral regarding Wendy

I can agree to at least Rel+ Attack Speed for Wendy. Looks like she fired it off first so that's reasonable.

Sub-Rel+ Combat Speed upgrade is fine as well.

Alright nice.

I'll make the upscaling blog in a bit unless someone does it before me

The full scaling implications are done

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I agree with Sub-Rel+ and the upscaling to Rel
Neutral on Wendy (Disagree specifically on SOL, Neutral on Rel+)

 

[DailyFairy]

Gajeel is fine, Wendy I'm leaning disagree

 

[LoudestProcedure]

I agree

 

[Random-Helper323]

The Gajeel feat I agree with.

The Wendy feat however... That's a beam struggle, they travel a similar distance even though she seemingly fires first by an unknown length of time... I'm sorry, I just don't think this is okay to scale speed unless we have further context.

 

[Saqphire]

The Wendy feat however... That's a beam struggle, they travel a similar distance even though she seemingly fires first by an unknown length of time... I'm sorry, I just don't think this is okay to scale speed unless we have further context.

That's fair, although we don't have further context for the feat other than that (I checked the whole episode). I'll put you as agree for gajeel, disagree for wendy

 

[Lilybitdun]

Sub-Relativistic+ Combat/Reaction Speed
The calculation of Gajeel dodging light has been accepted by a CGM, which would bump the ratings from Sub-Relativistic to Sub-Relativistic+ for everyone that scales to Gajeel.

Noticed that the calc uses average human height for Gajeel

There's an official 1-to-1 life scale statue of Gajeel that's 191cm including base and an official height comparison of the characters (also shows his height is factored into his total height)

With Erza's life scale statue being 171cm including base with Natsu being the same height as her

Since the feat is crucial for the speed scaling, Gajeel's actual height should be factored in

Edit: Also aren't we meant to use panel height for angsizing? The calc uses panel width

 

[Lilybitdun]

Actually the more I look at this calc the more I have wrong with it

It has the distance between them be nearly 27ft which just looking at the visuals is clearly not the case
Just to visualize how far that distance would be

Loke has to dodge Gajeel's stretched arm which we can easily see is less distance than the ~8.2m measured

I'm not sure why Loke's head is being used as the frame of reference when you could easily use his full height in the scene since his leg to head is visible. Generally you wanna use the bigger frame of reference

The scene of the feat should be linked in the blog too btw

 

[Saqphire]

Noticed that the calc uses average human height for Gajeel

There's an official 1-to-1 life scale statue of Gajeel that's 191cm including base and an official height comparison of the characters (also shows his height is factored into his total height)

With Erza's life scale statue being 171cm including base with Natsu being the same height as her

Since the feat is crucial for the speed scaling, Gajeel's actual height should be factored in

You're right, I was incapable of finding Gajeel's height when I made the calc, but it's appreciated that you found it. I will update the calc and thus this CRT to reflect this change.

Edit: Also aren't we meant to use panel height for angsizing? The calc uses panel width

Vertical height for ang sizing horizontal medias like anime and tv shows was deemed in this thread to be extremely inaccurate, basically due to this.

Cameras in movies typically use horizontal FOV values ranging from 60° to 75°, which provides a more realistic representation of the scene. By assuming a vertical FOV of 70°, the viewing angle is exaggerated, and therefore the measured distances are less than the actual ones, which affects the accuracy of distance calculations in action scenes.

The only reason the thread wasn't even applied was because it would take too much work to fix the calcs in the first place since over a thousand feats would be (and still are) inaccurate here thanks to that. I'm just following the curve on that.

Actually the more I look at this calc the more I have wrong with it

It has the distance between them be nearly 27ft which just looking at the visuals is clearly not the case
Just to visualize how far that distance would be

Loke has to dodge Gajeel's stretched arm which we can easily see is less distance than the ~8.2m measured

I think that can be fixed by just changing the angling degree here, but I figured 8 metres was relatively fine given the distance seen in these scenes in particular

I'm not sure why Loke's head is being used as the frame of reference when you could easily use his full height in the scene since his leg to head is visible. Generally you wanna use the bigger frame of reference

When I calced it, I was thinking of perspective basically as Loke's leg was a bit further back, but honestly now that you mention it, the discrepancy isn't that bad here, I could re-do it with the full height.

The scene of the feat should be linked in the blog too btw

On it.

Thanks for the criticism

 

[Lilybitdun]

Vertical height for ang sizing horizontal medias like anime and tv shows was deemed in this thread to be extremely inaccurate, basically due to this.

The only reason the thread wasn't even applied was because it would take too much work to fix the calcs in the first place since over a thousand feats would be (and still are) inaccurate here thanks to that. I'm just following the curve on that.

Huh, didn't know about that

I think that can be fixed by just changing the angling degree here, but I figured 8 metres was relatively fine given the distance seen in these scenes in particular

The third image looks about 8 meters but judging on placement of the roof destruction they might have gotten closer after

Thanks for the criticism

You're welcome

I'd suggest seeing if there's an alt way to find the distance via pixelscaling in the recalc since angsizing can be wonky sometimes (That third image would likely be good for that)

 

[Saqphire]

I'd suggest seeing if there's an alt way to find the distance via pixelscaling in the recalc since angsizing can be wonky sometimes (That third image would likely be good for that)

I'll see what I can do. Worst case scenario, I'll just use the same panel as that's the actual feat here, as that panel shows Loke being in front of the second hole at the top

 

[Saqphire]

Alright, the calculation and the CRT have been updated. I'm just gonna have to get the feat re-accepted and then the CRT can progress on.

I'm not sure if I also need all the mods here to re-approve the feat + scaling itself because of this

 

[Lilybitdun]

Yeah you would need CGM approval of the new version of the calc and the opinion of the staffs who voted on the new changes

 

[Saqphire]

Yeah you would need CGM approval of the new version of the calc and the opinion of the staffs who voted on the new changes

Yeah, I'ma wait on both of those then. Gajeel part of the CRT is paused until the CGM approves of it

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Not staff, but my vote is unchanged. (Unless the calc is rejected)

 

[Deceived3596]

If this feat (and scaling in general) is accepted, will there be a follow-up thread discussing the multipliers this value will undergo? If I recall correctly, there is a semi-hard cap on the verse's speed scaling for the majority of characters, with Haku being considered "immensely fast" as a character who can only travel at the speed of light. And since this is a series with an established Universal Energy System, I could see there being some major consistency issues with characters being faster compared to Haku, while also being immensely weaker.

Honestly, I think it's better to resolve that potential issue before continuing on with this thread. But that is merely my opinion. As for the feat itself, it seems fine. I don't have any disagreements with it, from a mathematical standpoint. I'm mostly concerned about any potential scaling issues that could arise with the Haku stuff.

 

[Saqphire]

If this feat (and scaling in general) is accepted, will there be a follow-up thread discussing the multipliers this value will undergo? If I recall correctly, there is a semi-hard cap on the verse's speed scaling for the majority of characters, with Haku being considered "immensely fast" as a character who can only travel at the speed of light. And since this is a series with an established Universal Energy System, I could see there being some major consistency issues with characters being faster compared to Haku, while also being immensely weaker.

Honestly, I think it's better to resolve that potential issue before continuing on with this thread. But that is merely my opinion. As for the feat itself, it seems fine. I don't have any disagreements with it, from a mathematical standpoint. I'm mostly concerned about any potential scaling issues that could arise with the Haku stuff.

UES doesn't apply for speed, so there's no worries on that part at least or we'd have a major overhaul involving how other multipliers work in general a long time ago (there's a few of them involving amps of hundreds of times like Lost Magic, Irene's percentage statement and so on). The speed multipliers apply because of the multipliers' proven demonstration that they're a speed amp in general which was accepted when they were applied back then.

Also, any problems involving Haku was adressed in the scaling spoiler; basically God Seed Doom shouldn't have his 8x amp but rather a 4x amp because GSD was extremely lackluster compared to people inferior to Haku anyway, yet he's above X792 fodders who are 4x above this feat which is below SOL, and Dragon Force Wendy is directly above Haku since she's the one who blitzed him (and Haku himself doesn't scale to Dragon Force Natsu; no one does at that point except for Zeref-tiers, which Haku isn't apart of). I'll put you as agree, mathematically

 

[DailyFairy]

Never understood why we take that line from Haku seriously as a verse cap when it's

A: Coming from a child playing make believe

B: Is in relation to the "White tiger dragon" which is in relation to titles that all the DDSK have (Red, blue, yellow and white) and not his actual dragon slayer ability

C: Has quotes around the "light" part of it

 

[Saqphire]

Never understood why we take that line from Haku seriously as a verse cap when it's

A: Coming from a child playing make believe

B: Is in relation to the "White tiger dragon" which is in relation to titles that all the DDSK have (Red, blue, yellow and white) and not his actual dragon slayer ability

C: Has quotes around the "light" part of it

I agree, but that's for a completely different CRT tbh. Also, Haku doesn't really cap any relevant characters, he just caps people who aren't Irene or August, or at worst, Base Zeref-tiers which is already like 20-30% of the cast.

 

[DailyFairy]

I agree, but that's for a completely different CRT tbh.

Yea, I'm aware, just brought it up in relation to the other comment as to why it shouldn't be an issue

Also, Haku doesn't really cap any relevant characters, he just caps people who aren't Irene or August, or at worst, Base Zeref-tiers which is already like 20-30% of the cast.

Maybe, but I think there shouldn't be one at all just off how the scene is framed, but that's neither here nor there for this thread

 

[Saqphire]

Yea, I'm aware, just brought it up in relation to the other comment as to why it shouldn't be an issue

Fair enough

 

[Remus1998]

Agree with Gajeel
Eh on Wendy, leaning disagree

 

[Deceived3596]

UES doesn't apply for speed, so there's no worries on that part at least or we'd have a major overhaul involving how other multipliers work in general a long time ago (there's a few of them involving amps of hundreds of times like Lost Magic, Irene's percentage statement and so on). The speed multipliers apply because of the multipliers' proven demonstration that they're a speed amp in general which was accepted when they were applied back then.

If that is the case, it should address the majority of my contentions, outright.

Also, any problems involving Haku was adressed in the scaling spoiler; basically God Seed Doom shouldn't have his 8x amp but rather a 4x amp because GSD was extremely lackluster compared to people inferior to Haku anyway, yet he's above X792 fodders who are 4x above this feat which is below SOL, and Dragon Force Wendy is directly above Haku since she's the one who blitzed him (and Haku himself doesn't scale to Dragon Force Natsu; no one does at that point except for Zeref-tiers, which Haku isn't apart of). I'll put you as agree, mathematically

Okay. I believe I understand what the scaling chain is now. Basically, the value that God Seed Doom and Base Ezel are scaling from are exactly the same. Since they are the same value, it doesn't result in a contradiction with Haku being light speed, as Wendy wouldn't scale above light speed in her base form via scaling to the value, which use to be the 8x value from God Seed Doom. Base Wendy would only be 88% Relativistic - assuming we didn't account for the current near-light speed upscaling she gets from being relative with Haku - instead of being several times into FTL.

Assuming I am correct here - at least on the important bits - I'm fine with it.

 

[Saqphire]

Assuming I am correct here - at least on the important bits - I'm fine with it.

Yes, you interpretted what I said perfectly. I'll add you fully as an agreement then

 

[DailyFairy]

So, we still need the mods who agreed to agree with the updated version of the calc yea?

 

[Lilybitdun]

So, we still need the mods who agreed to agree with the updated version of the calc yea?

the updated calc still needs CGM evaluation first

 

[DailyFairy]

the updated calc still needs CGM evaluation first

Ah phooey

 

[Lilybitdun]

Bump

Did the updated calc ever get evaluated?

 

[Saqphire]

Bump

Did the updated calc ever get evaluated?

Yes as of today, it's been accepted once more.

I can agree to at least Rel+ Attack Speed for Wendy. Looks like she fired it off first so that's reasonable.

Sub-Rel+ Combat Speed upgrade is fine as well.

I'm fine with the scaling but what you need to do now is talk about all the scaling this affects cause there's many multipliers built off of it

Edit: this is regarding the gajeel feat. for the wendy one, i need more time to think

The Gajeel feat I agree with.

The Wendy feat however... That's a beam struggle, they travel a similar distance even though she seemingly fires first by an unknown length of time... I'm sorry, I just don't think this is okay to scale speed unless we have further context.

I'ma need yall to re-cast your votes

 

[DailyFairy]

Oh boy, love me a speed upgrade

 

[Lilybitdun]

Bump

 

[Saqphire]

Bump of doom and despair

 

[DailyFairy]

Bump of doom and despair

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