Ben 10 AP & LS Revision (Alien Force & Ultimate Alien)

[Apollonir.Scale]

I noticed that we scaled the AF and UA versions of the Ben 10 aliens to the same power level. This is incorrect. The aliens have surpassed their previous versions in power many times throughout the series. Therefore, it wouldn't be appropriate to use Humungasaur's 4-B feat from UA to boost AF characters. Similarly, it wouldn't be appropriate to scale Gwen's Class P feat from the AF Finale to the AF Season 1 characters.

To give examples of power clifts:

1) Brainstorm loses to Base Aggregor. Humungasaur, who performs the 4-B feat, fights Ultimate Aggregor. I see no reason why Base Aggregor would scale to Humungasaur.

In the Ultimate Nightmare episode, Brainstorm damages Ultimate Cannonbolt and tanks his attack. In the Perplexahedron episode, Ultimate Cannonbolt overpowers Ultimate Aggregor. The episode's script even states that Ultimate Cannonbolt knocked Aggregor out. In UA Season 2, we see that even Sunder can fight Ultimate Cannonbolt. But in AF Season 2, it was Sunder who bested Spidermonkey. So, even Sunder's power levels differ in the two series. AF Humungasaur, who hadn't yet performed his 4-B feat, was also able to fight him.

Eatle was able to fight Captain Nemesis, and Nemesis is comparable to Eatle and Gwen. However, in his first appearance, Nemesis lost to Waterhazard. It could be argued that Nemesis has also gained strength. We also saw Brainstorm overpower Nemesis in an episode of Omniverse.

So, there should be different keys for Brainstorm, Spidermonkey, Humungasaur, Sunder, Eatle, and Nemesis for each season of AF and UAF.

2) I'd like to explain Spidermonkey a bit more for those who aren't convinced. In AF Season 1, Ben, in his human form, fights a Simian, Spidermonkey's kind. In AF Season 2, Spidermonkey loses to Sunder. Grandpa Max damages Albedo's Spidermonkey with a frying pan. But in Ultimate Alien, Ultimate Spidermonkey can fight Psyphon for a while. Psyphon => Ultimate SpiderMonkey = 10x Base SpiderMonkey. Later, we saw him fight Ultimate Kevin, who had also acquired Ultimate Aggregor's powers, for a while, and Kevin had to use BFR to defeat him. So, he became AT LEAST 10X stronger in the same season. Later, I saw a scene in Omniverse where he was defeated by Atea. Even Omniverse Atea is at least Ultimate Kevin's level.

3) Anodite Gwen scaling: Benjamin didn't know Gwen had an Anodite form. He mentioned this in Ultimate Nightmare. There was a scene where Ben told Gwen, "It's possible for you to defeat Kevin." Given Ben's knowledge, this means Base Gwen > Ultimate Kevin. The scripts for the episode where Gwen and Kevin fight say that it's possible for Gwen to defeat Kevin. They also say that Kevin lost control. In other words, Gwen holds her own, while Ultimate Kevin doesn't. In the Omniverse, Gwen frequently uses her Anodite form. This is why most characters in the Omniverse are stronger than Ultimate Kevin.

Therefore, the Keys of AF forms and characters should be lowered from 4-B. Class PL is the same.

We can assign Class K to AF Spidermonkey and AF Ben based on this calculation. The calculation's value is even higher than Classic Four Arms' Class K feat. Since the calculation is accepted, I don't see any problem. Rath and those who scale to him are also scaled to this Class M calc. There's even a scene in UA where Spidermonkey had to transform into his Ultimate form because he was crushed by the weight of a pole. There's also a scene in UA Season 1 where Fourarms struggles to lift a door.

Since Vilgax is stated to be 10x stronger in AP than his classic version, High 6-A should be 10x higher than his AP value. High 6-A is already derived from the current calc. 5.71x10=57.1 Exatons. If I'm not mistaken, this would be 5-C. The 29.6 Exatons value of 5-C is the baseline according to the AP page. Of course, this is valid for Season 2 of Alien Force. Because Vilgax, who is 10x stronger than his counterpart, is coming in Season 2. Unless there's a reason for Highbreed>Vilgax, characters like Highbreed should remain in High 6-A.

CONCLUSION
The rating of "At least High 6-A, at most 4-B" for AF characters has been agreed upon by other knowledgeable members of the series. We just need a mod vote now.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

By the way, the reason I wrote 10x in the Spidermonkey section is because it was stated that Ultimate Humungousaur is 10x stronger than base Humungousaur. I thought this could be true for all Ultimates. If you don't agree with this idea, I can delete the 10x post.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Well this isn't correct.

I noticed that we scaled the AF and UA versions of the Ben 10 aliens to the same power level. This is incorrect. The aliens have surpassed their previous versions in power many times throughout the series. Therefore, it wouldn't be appropriate to use Humungasaur's 4-B feat from UA to boost AF characters. Similarly, it wouldn't be appropriate to scale Gwen's Class P feat from the AF Finale to the AF Season 1 characters.

To give examples of power clifts:

1) Brainstorm loses to Base Aggregor. Humungasaur, who performs the 4-B feat, fights Ultimate Aggregor. I see no reason why Base Aggregor would scale to Humungasaur.

Ultimate Aggregor literally no diff Humungousaur. Why do Humungousaur scales to Ultimate Aggregor? Also 4-B come from Ultimate Aggregor not Humungousaur.
(Firestorm agree with Ultimate Aggregor scales to 4-B, and neutral with Humungousaur scaling)

In the Ultimate Nightmare episode, Brainstorm damages Ultimate Cannonbolt and tanks his attack.

This is was just dream

In the Perplexahedron episode, Ultimate Cannonbolt overpowers Ultimate Aggregor. The episode's script even states that Ultimate Cannonbolt knocked Aggregor out.

Fair enough

In UA Season 2, we see that even Sunder can fight Ultimate Cannonbolt. But in AF Season 2, it was Sunder who bested Spidermonkey. So, even Sunder's power levels differ in the two series.

It's just Plot-Induced Stupidity, it like:

• Vilgax (1773 year, and most be weaker than his Classic key) scales to Omniverse Ben (who is more powerful than his Classic/Flashbacks key)
• Armodrillo (who is 4-B) scales to Ultimate Kevin (who is 10 times more stronger than normal alien)

All these are characters can fight against characters who has power-ups, it just Outlier + Plot-Induced Stupidity

AF Humungasaur, who hadn't yet performed his 4-B feat, was also able to fight him.

I should be noted Ultimate Cannonbolt has 4-B+ with sufficient momentum not physically

Eatle was able to fight Captain Nemesis, and Nemesis is comparable to Eatle and Gwen. However, in his first appearance, Nemesis lost to Waterhazard. It could be argued that Nemesis has also gained strength. We also saw Brainstorm overpower Nemesis in an episode of Omniverse.

Eatle don't use his powers in this fight

So, there should be different keys for Brainstorm, Spidermonkey, Humungasaur, Sunder, Eatle, and Nemesis for each season of AF and UAF.

Gap between AF and UA, OV isn't as large as 10²¹. I disagree with this.

2) I'd like to explain Spidermonkey a bit more for those who aren't convinced. In AF Season 1, Ben, in his human form, fights a Simian, Spidermonkey's kind. In AF Season 2, Spidermonkey loses to Sunder. Grandpa Max damages Albedo's Spidermonkey with a frying pan. But in Ultimate Alien, Ultimate Spidermonkey can fight Psyphon for a while. Psyphon => Ultimate SpiderMonkey = 10x Base SpiderMonkey. Later, we saw him fight Ultimate Kevin, who had also acquired Ultimate Aggregor's powers, for a while, and Kevin had to use BFR to defeat him. So, he became AT LEAST 10X stronger in the same season. Later, I saw a scene in Omniverse where he was defeated by Atea. Even Omniverse Atea is at least Ultimate Kevin's level.

Same as above.

3) Anodite Gwen scaling: Benjamin didn't know Gwen had an Anodite form. He mentioned this in Ultimate Nightmare. There was a scene where Ben told Gwen, "It's possible for you to defeat Kevin." Given Ben's knowledge, this means Base Gwen > Ultimate Kevin. The scripts for the episode where Gwen and Kevin fight say that it's possible for Gwen to defeat Kevin. They also say that Kevin lost control. In other words, Gwen holds her own, while Ultimate Kevin doesn't. In the Omniverse, Gwen frequently uses her Anodite form. This is why most characters in the Omniverse are stronger than Ultimate Kevin.

Just because she has more control over her Anodite form doesn't mean she has more powerful (whoever Gwen most be has Passive Accelerated Development)

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Gwen's Tier and others mana users should be changes to Varies, 4-B normally, up to 4-B+ (or 2-A) at peak

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

By the way, the reason I wrote 10x in the Spidermonkey section is because it was stated that Ultimate Humungousaur is 10x stronger than base Humungousaur. I thought this could be true for all Ultimates. If you don't agree with this idea, I can delete the 10x post.

I don't agree. We literally see others Ultimate Froms can be defeated by characters get one-shotted or defeated by Ultimate Humungousaur or Ultimate Echo Echo or Ultimate Kevin

 

[Lort15]

Eh so long to read but from what i have understand you are tryna make a diff key for Alien force which would be low 5-B or smth because Alien force aliens are 10X stronger than OS however i will wait for counter arguments i see REX has some points but about Cannonbolt and Brainstorm scan it's wrong timestamp Base Aggregor is downscaling from Ult Aggregor who have 10 terrafoe meanwhile the Base Aggregor has like 1 terafoe or smth they are not really equal to him anyway

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Errors mentioned by the OP;

1. 4-B come from Ultimate Aggregor. And Base Aggregor are 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor
   1. AmpFibian scales to Base Aggregor. And 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor.
   2. Others Aliens scales to AmpFibian
2. Not all of Ultimate Froms are 10× more stronger than Base form
3. He use Outlier feats to make UA key are separate then AF key

Gwen's statements and most of points are likely fair but i just needs time to fix Gwen and other mana users Tier/AP

 

[GeneralSol16]

I agree.
There are a lot of statements and showings of Ben's aliens and the cast getting stronger overtime, even if the gap is that big, that'd just be a proof of how big their AD is.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is was just dream

Does the episode where the Ultimate fights the aliens count as a dream? Did I get it mixed up with the episode where Albedo was dreaming?

Also, even if they were inside the Ultimatrix in that episode, does that mean their powers have decreased/increased?

Eatle don't use his powers in this fight

We saw Eatle eat and shoot lasers

It's just Plot-Induced Stupidity, it like:

• Vilgax (1773 year, and most be weaker than his Classic key) scales to Omniverse Ben (who is more powerful than his Classic/Flashbacks key)
• Armodrillo (who is 4-B) scales to Ultimate Kevin (who is 10 times more stronger than normal alien)

All these are characters can fight against characters who has power-ups, it just Outlier + Plot-Induced Stupidity

Isn't it possible that Armodrillo became 10x stronger in a short time? Because I remember there was a 1 week difference between the Ultimate Aggregor arc and the Ultimate Kevin arc.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I understand that 4-B Humungousaur comes from this feat, but the scaling is done by scaling the base Aggregor's power over 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor's.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Does the episode where the Ultimate fights the aliens count as a dream? Did I get it mixed up with the episode where Albedo was dreaming?

I think you meant "The Ultimate Sacrifice" episode. Isn't?

Also, even if they were inside the Ultimatrix in that episode, does that mean their powers have decreased/increased?

Well, I don't really know. But we don't scales Base Aliens to Ultimate Alien without any proof for amplification.

We saw Eatle eat and shoot lasers

He literally overpowered Nemesis

Isn't it possible that Armodrillo became 10x stronger in a short time? Because I remember there was a 1 week difference between the Ultimate Aggregor arc and the Ultimate Kevin arc.

Can you explain how he got 10× amp? He literally needs 5 years for be comparable, if not stronger then Vilgax. We have more Plot-Induced Stupidity explains, like:

• Classic Heatblast can fight and keep up with Kevin
  • This is same Heatblast, who most to be can fight with Classic Vilgax lol.
• Flashback Ditto and XLR8 was able to fight and harm Eon
  • Eon was able to fight with Omniverse Diamondhead & Paradox

Is this make sense to you for scales Classic/Flashbacks to Ultimate Alien/Omniverse? It's just Plot-Induced Stupidity

I understand that 4-B Humungousaur comes from this feat, but the scaling is done by scaling the base Aggregor's power over 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor's.

No... It's come from Ultimate Aggregor's Durability

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I think you meant "The Ultimate Sacrifice" episode. Isn't?

Yes, that's the part I was talking about

Well, I don't really know. But we don't scales Base Aliens to Ultimate Alien without any proof for amplification.

While inside the Ultimatrix, they weren't affected by Ghostfreak's body control, so they might even have become stronger.

He literally overpowered Nemesis

Eatle also physically fought Lucubra Vilgax for a time. If there is no subsequent power-up, Nemesis's weapons should scale and upgrade accordingly.

He literally needs 5 years for be comparable, if not stronger then Vilgax.

Ben didn't transform into Diamondhead and fight for five years. He didn't use the Omnitrix from the time he stopped using it until the second episode of AF Season 2. He may have improved his Diamondhead skills before he stopped using the Omnitrix in the classic series finale and pre-AF. He tells Vilgax, "You don't have a chance, Vilgax, I've trained a lot with it." Considering he wasn't at this level in his classic series form, this suggests he might have trained off-screen or gotten stronger by fighting other enemies.

Heatblast is the same way. Ben first transformed into Heatblast after the classic series in the episode where he fought Dr. Viktor in UA.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Another example of gaining strength quickly.

Eatle loses to Ascalon Vilgax in one hit. However, in later episodes, Eatle physically fights Lucubra Vilgax and can also deal damage with lasers.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Yes, that's the part I was talking about

While inside the Ultimatrix, they weren't affected by Ghostfreak's body control, so they might even have become stronger.

This is just Resistance to Possession & Intangibility, not proof for "more stronger than before". Again, do you have any proof for power-ups?

Eatle also physically fought Lucubra Vilgax for a time. If there is no subsequent power-up, Nemesis's weapons should scale and upgrade accordingly.

Why Nemesis's weapons are scales to Eatle? Just one weapon not means all weapons.

Ben didn't transform into Diamondhead and fight for five years. He didn't use the Omnitrix from the time he stopped using it until the second episode of AF Season 2. He may have improved his Diamondhead skills before he stopped using the Omnitrix in the classic series finale and pre-AF. He tells Vilgax, "You don't have a chance, Vilgax, I've trained a lot with it." Considering he wasn't at this level in his classic series form, this suggests he might have trained off-screen or gotten stronger by fighting other enemies.

I'm take about "if Armodrillo became 10x stronger in a short time", then why Classic Aliens can't do same thing in OS? They fight Vilgax many times but they didn't show any feat for harm Vilgax. But in AF, Classic Aliens (Diamondhead) shown to be overpowered Vilgax. Can you please give me any scan proof this? Anyway my opinion don't change for now

Heatblast is the same way. Ben first transformed into Heatblast after the classic series in the episode where he fought Dr. Viktor in UA.

What? I'm taking about this. Classic Heatblast was able to fight with UA Kevin and NRG, so should be he scales to UA characters???

Another example of gaining strength quickly.

Eatle loses to Ascalon Vilgax in one hit. However, in later episodes, Eatle physically fights Lucubra Vilgax and can also deal damage with lasers.

Eatle wasn't use his Absorption powers, so no proof for power-ups. Also again your examples are just Plot-Induced Stupidity and Outlier

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone summarize the sentiment so far?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Can someone summarize the sentiment so far?

My points:

• OP are confuses with 4-B scaling, as he thinks Humungousaur is one who performs the 4-B feat. But in Tier 4 Upgrade, it says Ultimate Aggregor is one who performs the 4-B feat. Base Aggregor is downscaling from Ult Aggregor.

Errors mentioned by the OP;

1. 4-B come from Ultimate Aggregor. And Base Aggregor are 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor
   1. AmpFibian scales to Base Aggregor. And 1/6 of Ultimate Aggregor.
   2. Others Aliens scales to AmpFibian
2. Not all of Ultimate Froms are 10× more stronger than Base form
3. He use Outlier feats to make UA key are separate then AF key

Gwen's statements and most of points are likely fair but i just needs time to fix Gwen and other mana users Tier/AP

• OP just use Plot-Induced Stupidity explains. Like
  • Ultimate Cannonbolt vs Brainstorm; Brainstorm doesn't really damage Ultimate Cannonbolt. He just use his electrical shield.
  • Nemesis vs Eatle; Eatle are literally overpowered Nemesis.
• I also give him more Plot-Induced Stupidity explains

Can you explain how he got 10× amp? He literally needs 5 years for be comparable, if not stronger then Vilgax. We have more Plot-Induced Stupidity explains, like:

• Classic Heatblast can fight and keep up with Kevin
  • This is same Heatblast, who most to be can fight with Classic Vilgax lol.
• Flashback Ditto and XLR8 was able to fight and harm Eon
  • Eon was able to fight with Omniverse Diamondhead & Paradox

Is this make sense to you for scales Classic/Flashbacks to Ultimate Alien/Omniverse? It's just Plot-Induced Stupidity

It's just Plot-Induced Stupidity, it like:

• Vilgax (1773 year, and most be weaker than his Classic key) scales to Omniverse Ben (who is more powerful than his Classic/Flashbacks key)
• Armodrillo (who is 4-B) scales to Ultimate Kevin (who is 10 times more stronger than normal alien)

All these are characters can fight against characters who has power-ups, it just Outlier + Plot-Induced Stupidity

• Gap between AF and UA, OV isn't as large as 10²¹, since there no statement for power-ups

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Why Nemesis's weapons are scales to Eatle? Just one weapon not means all weapons.

Nemesis deals damage to Eatle with his weapon. Eatle had to eat and use lasers to defeat him. Jennifer defeated Eatle using Nemesis's new armor. When Eatle was defeated, he reverted to his human form, Ben.

About a week later, Ben transforms into Eatle against Lucubra Vilgax. We've also seen that he can physically fight Lucubra Vilgax. So, unless he gains a significant power-up in a short time, Eatle, who was defeated before he could do anything against Ascalon Vilgax, shouldn't be able to fight Lucubra Vilgax at all. While Nemesis doesn't scale to Eatle using lasers, it does scale to Eatle physically.

If you're wondering where the "1 week" phrase is used, it's because Ben and Team George made a deal one episode after Sir George recaptured Ascalon. If Sir George can't handle this within a week, Ben and his team will be able to intervene. It must be the third episode from the end, and Ben says the time we gave him is up. So, in just a week, Eatle's physical strength increases enough to fight Lucubra Vilgax, even though he's only eating from Ascalon Vilgax.

I'm take about "if Armodrillo became 10x stronger in a short time", then why Classic Aliens can't do same thing in OS? They fight Vilgax many times but they didn't show any feat for harm Vilgax. But in AF, Classic Aliens (Diamondhead) shown to be overpowered Vilgax. Can you please give me any scan proof this? Anyway my opinion don't change for now

Okay, the argument I gave with Diamondhead's example is that he might have become powerful enough to defeat Vilgax in the interim before giving up the Omnitrix. Then, when he gave up the Omnitrix and started using it again four years later, the old aliens were gone. When Diamondhead came back in his duel with Vilgax, he said, "I've practiced with this a lot." In other words, the reason he couldn't defeat Vilgax in the past, but now he can, is attributed to this.

Ben would have been able to practice with Diamondhead after the Classic series finale, and he's stated that he hasn't encountered Vilgax since he transformed into Way Big and threw him into space.

What? I'm taking about this. Classic Heatblast was able to fight with UA Kevin and NRG, so should be he scales to UA characters???

It would be the same as I said for Diamondhead. He might have practiced with Heatblast off-screen and gotten stronger. In UA, he first transforms into Heatblast when he fights Dr. Viktor.

We don't know exactly when the Ben in this scene is Classic Ben. Since he can transform into Wildvine, he would at least be Classic Ben from Season 2. But I see no reason why he couldn't be Ben after the Classic finale.

Eatle wasn't use his Absorption powers, so no proof for power-ups. Also again your examples are just Plot-Induced Stupidity and Outlier

My friend Eatle fought Lucubra Vilgax without "eating" anything when he faced him.

I don't see him eating anything here.



and here

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

As i say not even proof for power-ups just use some scans that can be just Plot-Induced Stupidity + Outlier. About Eatle, Eatle scales to Lucubra Vilgax with Absorption, not physically. So not even proof for power-ups

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Nemesis deals damage to Eatle with his weapon. Eatle had to eat and use lasers to defeat him. Jennifer defeated Eatle using Nemesis's new armor. When Eatle was defeated, he reverted to his human form, Ben.

See scan again. Nemesis don't even damage Eatle

About a week later, Ben transforms into Eatle against Lucubra Vilgax. We've also seen that he can physically fight Lucubra Vilgax. So, unless he gains a significant power-up in a short time, Eatle, who was defeated before he could do anything against Ascalon Vilgax, shouldn't be able to fight Lucubra Vilgax at all. While Nemesis doesn't scale to Eatle using lasers, it does scale to Eatle physically.

If you're wondering where the "1 week" phrase is used, it's because Ben and Team George made a deal one episode after Sir George recaptured Ascalon. If Sir George can't handle this within a week, Ben and his team will be able to intervene. It must be the third episode from the end, and Ben says the time we gave him is up. So, in just a week, Eatle's physical strength increases enough to fight Lucubra Vilgax, even though he's only eating from Ascalon Vilgax.

Do you know what Plot-Induced Stupidity and Outlier means?

Okay, the argument I gave with Diamondhead's example is that he might have become powerful enough to defeat Vilgax in the interim before giving up the Omnitrix. Then, when he gave up the Omnitrix and started using it again four years later, the old aliens were gone. When Diamondhead came back in his duel with Vilgax, he said, "I've practiced with this a lot." In other words, the reason he couldn't defeat Vilgax in the past, but now he can, is attributed to this.

Ben would have been able to practice with Diamondhead after the Classic series finale, and he's stated that he hasn't encountered Vilgax since he transformed into Way Big and threw him into space.

I don't mean that lol

It would be the same as I said for Diamondhead. He might have practiced with Heatblast off-screen and gotten stronger. In UA, he first transforms into Heatblast when he fights Dr. Viktor.

We don't know exactly when the Ben in this scene is Classic Ben. Since he can transform into Wildvine, he would at least be Classic Ben from Season 2. But I see no reason why he couldn't be Ben after the Classic finale.

Bro this is literally Classic Heatblast lol

My friend Eatle fought Lucubra Vilgax without "eating" anything when he faced him.

I don't see him eating anything here.



and here

This can be explained by Plot-Induced Stupidity and Outlier lol

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Ngl, this is like make Younger Vilgax scales to 4-A and his Adult Vilgax (in Classic) to High 6-A lol

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ngl, this is like make Younger Vilgax scales to 4-A and his Adult Vilgax (in Classic) to High 6-A lol

Young Vilgax doesn't scale to the Omniverse Ben Aliens. If you tell him to hit XLR8 here, he gets distracted when he sees the Omnitrix is about to expire. That's why he gets hit. He already beats Vilgax in Mole-Stache form.

See scan again. Nemesis don't even damage Eatle

In the first scan, a yellow laser hits Eatle. I've already shared this before.

Eatle scales to Lucubra Vilgax with Absorption, not physically

No, Lucubra fought Vilgax without "Absorption." If you watch the video in the YouTube link I sent, you'll see that he wasn't eating. He's physically stronger than Vilgax.

This can be explained by Plot-Induced Stupidity and Outlier lol

Why would getting stronger in a week be called Plot-Induced Stupidity or Outlier? That would require a line in the series along the lines of, "You can't get that strong in that amount of time."

Just like in Bleach, a reliable narrator like Ukitake found four months insufficient to get stronger. I don't recall any mention of this in the 10 series. If there is, could you point it out?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Young Vilgax doesn't scale to the Omniverse Ben Aliens. If you tell him to hit XLR8 here, he gets distracted when he sees the Omnitrix is about to expire. That's why he gets hit. He already beats Vilgax in Mole-Stache form.

So? Ben can escape far away from fight, even Vilgax take hits from Mole-Stache. There also the others examples lol.

In the first scan, a yellow laser hits Eatle. I've already shared this before.

You continue to use this scan even though you know that Eatle didn't use Absorption, lol. After Eatle use his Absorption, he literally stomp Nemesis.

No, Lucubra fought Vilgax without "Absorption." If you watch the video in the YouTube link I sent, you'll see that he wasn't eating. He's physically stronger than Vilgax.

Lol, as i say this is just Outlier + Plot-Induced Stupidity. Literally there no proof for "POWER-UPS".

Why would getting stronger in a week be called Plot-Induced Stupidity or Outlier?

Where even it stated that Ben get more stronger in week? Just because he was able to fight with Lucubra Vilgax doesn't mean he get more stronger.

That would require a line in the series along the lines of, "You can't get that strong in that amount of time."

So? Why they don't say it. At least found statement in books says "Ben get more stronger in week"

Just like in Bleach, a reliable narrator like Ukitake found four months insufficient to get stronger. I don't recall any mention of this in the 10 series. If there is, could you point it out?

This isn't Bleach, so no.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

So? Ben can escape far away from fight, even Vilgax take hits from Mole-Stache. There also the others examples lol.

The fact that the Mole-Stache's blows couldn't kill Vilgax doesn't increase Vilgax's durability to 4-B. Besides, why would Benjamin try to kill the Vilgax from the past? This happened while he was holding himself back.

Where even it stated that Ben get more stronger in week? Just because he was able to fight with Lucubra Vilgax doesn't mean he get more stronger.

4 minutes into "The Beginning of the End"

Gwen: I thought we'd give Gerog a chance.
Benjamin: He took his chance. It's been two weeks.

Two weeks ago in "A Knight to Remember," Eatle loses to Ascalon Vilgax without being able to do anything. Two weeks later, in "The Beginning of the End," he fights Lucubra Vilgax, a stronger form of Vilgax. Neither battle has "ABSORPTION." Why would this suggest Eatle hasn't become stronger than before in two weeks? So, it would have to be Ascalon Vilgax > Lucubra Vilgax. But Lucubra Vilgax has a stronger statement than all previous forms. Apart from this, after being pinned to the ground by Heatblast, Vilgax also stated to Diagon that he needed more power and fought against Eatle and George with the power Diagon gave him.

This isn't Bleach, so no.

That's what I'm trying to explain. Unlike Bleach, there's no statement in the Ben 10 series that says it's impossible to get very strong in an x amount of time. Therefore, we can't call Eatle reaching Lucubra Vilgax level in about 2 weeks an outlier/PIS.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I don't see anything here that proves they are power-ups or something else, just repeating the same argument. I still disagree, and I would leave it to Firestorm to decide about this.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Lmao, guys
Ben's aliens get stronger with age, that's a fact.

We've seen them going from get stomped by Kevin to being able to hold their own against him (Four Arms beating the shit out of Diamonds, then losing to Kevin, but then Diamondhead z who's the weakest among them, to be able to hurt and fight Kevin. Later, in OV flashbacks, Four Arms went from bareli being able to fight 1st form Malware to keep up with his 2nd form), so we've valid statements and showing of Ben's aliens getting stronger overtime.

We know that Gwen and Kevin get buffed throughout the series by their own means, like improving their control and skills over their powers, being why they're able to keep up with Ben's AD in the show.

By UA, Ben's capable of beating the shit out of dudes he couldn't even move a series prior, like Sunder, Ult Kevin, Vilgax, etc.

And the most important part: Omniverse Aliens.
The New Omnitrix turns Ben into the Apex of the race, it didn't work like that before, now Ben's able to stomp the Prime example of the race as we saw a lot during that era, while in UAF and OS Ben getting his ass beat by other specimens was the most consistent shit ever.

So yeah, Ben's aliens get stronger, and OV Aliens are the strongest or all.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Diamondhead also defeated Form 2 Malware. Malware was powerful enough to defeat Cannonbolt. Considering that Cannonbolt is the alien capable of defeating Kevin 11, this means that Diamondhead surpassed Cannonbolt after Secrets of the Omnitrix.

 

[Greenshifter]

While Ben does get stronger over time, I don’t think you can just say UA Humungousaur is like that much superior to Vilgax at that point. If anything the biggest growth in strength happens within Alien Force itself. There’s also OV Vilgax who is equal in power to OS Vilgax still being capable of tanking a hit from OV Diamondhead.

Most of the examples from the OP are people who should have a variable tier anyways.

 

[Lort15]

While Ben does get stronger over time, I don’t think you can just say UA Humungousaur is like that much superior to Vilgax at that point. If anything the biggest growth in strength happens within Alien Force itself. There’s also OV Vilgax who is equal in power to OS Vilgax still being capable of tanking a hit from OV Diamondhead.

Most of the examples from the OP are people who should have a variable tier anyways.

Who let this guy out from the basement

 

[Greenshifter]

Who let this guy out from the basement

Be glad I’m here saving your ass

 

[Lort15]

Be glad I’m here saving your ass

1-A miraculous twin

 

[GeneralSol16]

There’s also OV Vilgax who is equal in power to OS Vilgax still being capable of tanking a hit from OV Diamondhead.

That's just isn't true
Show me a scan where that's said.

 

[Lort15]

run it back

 

[Greenshifter]

That's just isn't true
Show me a scan where that's said.

… I’d have to explain you basic aspects of Vilgax’s lore buddy. I recommend watching the show.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Y

… I’d have to explain you basic aspects of Vilgax’s lore buddy. I recommend watching the show.

He lost his powers from AF, sure, but it's clear that he gained some other shit since he now has Energy Manipulation and was able to fight Ben's current aliens. Saying he's as strong as his OSself is stupid as hell, "buddy"

 

[Greenshifter]

He lost his powers from AF, sure

Glad we agree on that.

but it's clear that he gained some other shit since he now has Energy

Is it though? He could have gained that before Alien Force.

was able to fight Ben's current aliens

I assume you are referring to the single instance where he tanks an attack from Diamondhead? The same scene where he gets hurt by Gwen 10’s Cannonbolt, Ben 23’s Shocksquatch and No Watch Base Ben? Vilgax has a knack for surviving things which should be lethal to him, so I think one punch from OV Diamondhead doesn’t prove anything expect that OS aliens are somewhat comparable (as in not an entirely different tier) to OV aliens.

Saying he's as strong as his OSself is stupid as hell

FYI I literally got this accepted a couple years ago. Nobody even debunked it in the meantime, people just forgot about it. So guess it wasn’t stupid enough to not be accepted .

Also why does having extra attack options even scale to his durability to begin with?

 

[GeneralSol16]

Glad we agree on that.

Sure, but funny since you have said a handful of times that you don't like to use WoG.

Is it though? He could have gained that before Alien Force.

*Could have" argument with no basis.
He never used them in all of AF, and he definitely had the chances of. And if he had, Ben would've taken them from him after UA, something that didn't happen.

I assume you are referring to the single instance where he tanks an attack from Diamondhead? The same scene where he gets hurt by Gwen 10’s Cannonbolt, Ben 23’s Shocksquatch and No Watch Base Ben? Vilgax has a knack for surviving things which should be lethal to him, so I think one punch from OV Diamondhead doesn’t prove anything expect that OS aliens are somewhat comparable (as in not an entirely different tier) to OV aliens.

Also surviving attacks drone Kickin' Hawk.
Also, Ben 23 is somewhat comparable to Ben Prime Aliens, his Armodrillo could fight Exo-Skull, just because it looks like his OSself doesn't mean that Omnitrix is the prototype.
The only real issue here'd be Gwen, since NWBen, just knocked out an already beaten up Vilgax.

FYI I literally got this accepted a couple years ago. Nobody even debunked it in the meantime, people just forgot about it. So guess it wasn’t stupid enough to not be accepted .

So, Alien X L2C since "it wasn't stupid enough to not be accepted"?

Also why does having extra attack options even scale to his durability to begin with?

Because it means that he's a completely different version of Vilgax with an unknown and new set of powers and abilities, meaning you can't back scale him to his OS ver.

 

[Greenshifter]

Sure, but funny since you have said a handful of times that you don't like to use WoG.

I don’t use WoG outside of the wiki. Here I just play by the rules. But I don’t use WoG to justify Ben taking Vilgax’s powers, it’s just common sense.

*Could have" argument with no basis.

You’re the one making the positive claim that he gained new abilities after AF. I am merely pointing out that this does not have to be the case. You have to fulfill your burden of proof here, not me.

He never used them in all of AF,

Actually he used his heat vision (which he has in the Super Secret Crisis War comic) in Alien Force.

And if he had, Ben would've taken them from him after UA, something that didn't happen.

These powers seem to be more technological in nature, something Ascalon wouldn’t absorb.

Also surviving attacks drone Kickin' Hawk

Oh right and then Base Ben’s onslaught right after that. I don’t think there’s an issue with OS Vilgax being on their level though, unless I’m missing something?

Also, Ben 23 is somewhat comparable to Ben Prime Aliens, his Armodrillo could fight Exo-Skull, just because it looks like his OSself doesn't mean that Omnitrix is the prototype.

That’s fine, I’m trying to show relativity, not exactly equal. Ben 23 is also a good example as he sits between OS and OV in age. Why does the Omnitrix he’s using matter though?

So, Alien X L2C since "it wasn't stupid enough to not be accepted"?

I’m not saying that things can’t be wrong if they’re accepted (btw like the profile was created at uni+ no?), I’m saying that they tend to not be stupid at least. Maybe I should just stick to my threads not being stupid if they get accepted, you got a point there.

Because it means that he's a completely different version of Vilgax with an unknown and new set of powers and abilities, meaning you can't back scale him to his OS ver

He’s literally treated like fodder in OV, zero respect from his fellow villains, a hasbeen with energy beams. Also basically every time Vilgax gets an amp, he gloats about it to Ben.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also the Kickin’ Hawk and Base Ben scaling happens in prison, before he could have gotten any amp.

 

[Firestorm808]

Have you guys settled the dispute?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Have you guys settled the dispute?

While talking with Greenshifter on Discord, we pretty much agreed that the phrase "At most 4-B" would be a good choice for Alien Force characters.