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While planning out the revitalization and cleaning up of the profiles of the Sailor Moon verse, we discovered that this downgrade was not properly applied to the series. To save ourself time, we decided that we are going to "rebunk" conceptual manipulation, so we don't have to remove it from the profiles and then add it back again.
We don't believe that this downgrade was made in good effort. While this post is long, I believe we will show that the arguments presented in the downgrade thread were not forthcoming.
When the thread was made, I was not in the right state of mind and under a lot of stress, so I was not able to do my best to refute it. I was honestly exasperated as there were multiple controversial sailor moon crts going on. I took a much needed break, and my head is now clear. So now I can actually get this done!
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
For context: The user is using an app called HiNative, where regular people help each other out by answering questions.
Here is the question OP asked:
"This scan describes objects called "star seeds" [sic] that are the origin of all things. Does this scan indicate that star seeds are the origin of shapes, sizes, and names, or the things that star seeds create have different shapes, sizes and names?"
This is a leading question. OP worded his message in a specific way to get a specific response. They could have either simply asked for a straight forward translation, or provided the translation from the original conceptual crt and ask if it was was accurate.
I also included the official English scan which matches up exactly with what OP's translator says:
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
Here is my word for word, statement:
"It's not just celestial objects like stars and planets. It's everything including all living things. Including all shapes, sizes, and names. This is not just for physical beings, but non-physical beings such as Metallia who is pure darkness, Death Phantom, whose true form is his resentment, ghosts, and Gods. The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all things.."
If the way I worded this phrase, confused people, I can understand that but I then go on to list all sorts of beings whose existences are unconventional. Notice I did not make a list of literal shapes, sizes, and names and that none of the scans I provided alludes to that? And during the downgrade thread I repeatedly corrected OP on this matter but OP and their supporters continued to repeat that I made this argument.
That thread presented this scan:
imgchest.com
This was used as evidence that sailor crystals are physical. However, they completely left out the important plot point that the light and power of the silver crystal left the physical crystal and left it powerless, and entered Mamoru. One of the central plot point of this section of Arc 1 is about the silver crystal being useless because it doesn't have its power anymore. OP did not include this scan from the fifth arc, where the characters blatantly state that the Sailor Crystals are "distillations of mysterious power." They also left out the scene where Galaxia breaks the physical crystal to get the sailor crystal inside. In another scene, the sailor crystals are compared in opposition to the physical bodies.
Star Seeds exist inside the crystal and are the power of the crystals. This is stated outright in the series. And the series has again and again, made it clear that the crystal is not the physical glass but the actual power inside of it.
Sailor Moon, herself dissolved her own crystal and remade it with the help of Mamoru after an enemy took it from her. Her remade crystal is just a ball of pure of light before eventually reverting back to a physical form. Proving, that again, it's the power inside it that matters. Not the object.
Here is another scan provided without proper context:
The thread goes, " For contrast, as conveniently mentioned in the quote box above, there's a scene where Hotaru has to protect both souls and crystals as a disembodied spirit herself, and while the souls are depicted as ghost-like objects, the crystal is depicted as a physical object. "
The thread wants you to believe that this evidence of the crystal being physical because Chibi-Usa is holding it physical. What they fail to mention, is this scene occurs in a non-physical spiritual/mental/astral realm. Chibi Usa's soul and crystal were absorbed by Mistress 9. Her disembodied soul is now wondering that nonphysical space in search of her crystal. If the crystal was purely physical, it would not be able to exist in this astral realm.
Here are some additional supporting scenes:
1. In that same scene, Hotaru tells Chibiusa that the crystal is like her heart, and that she must keep it safe in her heart. Here is the translator's note for that scene.
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
So it's obvious that the narrative treats the crystals as being more than just something physical.
2. In the anime, which can be used to supplement the manga, the crystal turns into pure energy before being absorbed.
3. Both Chibi-Usa's soul and silver crystal get absorbed into her body. How can the silver crystal be purely physical when it behaves similar to an abstract soul?
4. When Chibi Usa's summons her compact, it appears as pure light/energy and then transforms into the physical version she uses.
That thread had this statement:
"This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn. Rereading the scan shows it's a very vague, poetic, self-encouraging statement about Hotaru having a greater purpose in the grand scheme of things than she realizes, and therefore needing to save others. Moreover, the arc is about Hotaru learning to value friendship mainly as a civilian, which works against the idea that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn, which regardless is a high-end interpretation of poetic text, used to formulate another high-end interpretation that her identity as Sailor Saturn means her star seed (which hadn't been introduced by this point in the manga) rather than in itself, still referring to having a purpose higher than herself as an individual."
Sorry but this just an objectively wrong interpretation. This is the scan in question.
Hotaru is obviously talking about Sailor Saturn. Here in this scene, Hotaru is a disembodied soul fighting an eldritch horror from another universe, trying to keep the souls of her friends safe. So yes, even while just a soul, Sailor Saturn exists as an even deeper form of Hotaru, showing that the sailor crystals are much more fundamental than hotaru's soul. Sailor Saturn is able to awaken, even after Hotaru's body and soul were destroyed. If you don't believe me, here is what the anime has to say about this scene.
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
This same motif is again repeated in the next arc, with Sailor Saturn deliberately saying, "the you that sleeps within you".
"Poetic language" has frankly been used many times to wave away feats of magical girls series. Throwing away an entire emotional scene as being "just power of friendship" is not something that should ever be taken seriously.
The thread also presented this scan:
As evidence of the crystal being used as a reactor means it's physical. Personally, I don't understand this argument as one can use a nonphysical source to power a machine, but they did however completely left out context again. The planet Nemesis naturally has fusion core, and is made of black crystal. The Dark Moon Clan built a reactor on the planet to harness the power released by the planet's fusion core. They didn't create the black crystal in a laboratory or alter it in a laboratory, or used it as a battery for a fusion core they built. It naturally has power.
Again, the crystals can have physical manifestations that people can utilize, but ultimately, the power inside them is what matters.
For some reason the downgrade thread includes, "The place where star seeds are born, Sagittarius Zero Star, the location of the Galaxy Cauldron in the center of the Universe, also has physical phenomena like fog and extreme density."
There's a lot of incorrect information here. Princess Kakyuu calls the center of the galaxy where the stars are denser Sagittarius A. She then says, "Farther within at the center of the Sagittarius A is Sagittarius's Zero Star, the Galaxy Cauldron. " The area with "extreme density" is the center of the galaxy. The scan of the supposed fog, is not the Galaxy Cauldron, it's a location within Sagittarius A. OP is presenting areas not inside the galaxy cauldron as if they were.
I have no idea why these scans were even included in this CRT. Sagittarius Alpha Star is a physical place. No one has ever argued that it's not. The Galaxy Cauldron located at the center, is where the star seeds are born, and is nonphysical and not depicted in any of the scans provided. I really don't see the purpose of trying to include these scans and argument other than to confuse mods and to pad their evidence.
OP knows this because they included the scans of the actual Galaxy Cauldron when they spoke about Mamoru being erased by it.
Here is what the Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 says:
Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
Everything under the heavens: All living things and all celestial object, comes from a star seed. It is the fundamental aspect of the entire Sailor Moon series.
A. Independent from reality:
This means these concepts are unaffected by the destruction of the form. If you destroy all chairs, the type 1 concept of chairs still remain.
Star seeds give form to individuals. The destruction of that individual does not affect the star seed.
Hotaru's body and soul were destroyed by Mistress 9, yet her Sailor Crystal was unaffected and it allowed her to regenerate when she awakened as Sailor Saturn.
The Sailor Animamates, are people who use the power of stolen Sailor Crystals. For example, Sailor Aluminum Siren has the sailor crystal of Sailor Mermaid. Even though Sailor Mermaid is dead, her Sailor Crystal lives on independently without her.
Mamoru was killed in the present timeline, yet in the future, his daughter was unaffected and his future self was not immediately affected. And when his physical body eventually began to fade away due to the changes in the timeline, his crystal is what kept him alive and still in existence.
B. Governs reality:
This means that changing or destroying the concept should alter reality. If you destroy the type 1 concept of chairs, then all chairs in reality will cease to exist.
When Mamoru fell into the Galaxy Cauldron, his Sailor Crystal was erased. This caused his future, and future daughter to be immediately erased. And for further context, the move which we can use as reference, shows that he was erased in the past, present, and future.
The crt thread tries to explain it away as being actuality negation, but that just doesn't fly here and doesn't explain why he was erased in the past as well.
Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals fit in the requirements for Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Therefore they get to be indexed as Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. It's the same standard that every other verse on this site gets beholden too.
Agree: @FinePoint, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @LordGriffin1000
Disagree:
Neutral:
We don't believe that this downgrade was made in good effort. While this post is long, I believe we will show that the arguments presented in the downgrade thread were not forthcoming.
When the thread was made, I was not in the right state of mind and under a lot of stress, so I was not able to do my best to refute it. I was honestly exasperated as there were multiple controversial sailor moon crts going on. I took a much needed break, and my head is now clear. So now I can actually get this done!
1. Leading questions
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
For context: The user is using an app called HiNative, where regular people help each other out by answering questions.
Here is the question OP asked:
"This scan describes objects called "star seeds" [sic] that are the origin of all things. Does this scan indicate that star seeds are the origin of shapes, sizes, and names, or the things that star seeds create have different shapes, sizes and names?"
This is a leading question. OP worded his message in a specific way to get a specific response. They could have either simply asked for a straight forward translation, or provided the translation from the original conceptual crt and ask if it was was accurate.
2. Misrepresenting Arguments
In the original thread, I did not argue that Star Seeds directly created literal names, shapes, or sizes. I argued that star seeds created all things, regardless of their name, shapes, and sizes. If you notice in the translation, the translator makes a notice that the Yaten classifies Stars as living things. This is because in Sailor Moon, all celestial objects are considered alive: The Moons, planets, asteroids, even comets are considered alive.I also included the official English scan which matches up exactly with what OP's translator says:
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
Here is my word for word, statement:
"It's not just celestial objects like stars and planets. It's everything including all living things. Including all shapes, sizes, and names. This is not just for physical beings, but non-physical beings such as Metallia who is pure darkness, Death Phantom, whose true form is his resentment, ghosts, and Gods. The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all things.."
If the way I worded this phrase, confused people, I can understand that but I then go on to list all sorts of beings whose existences are unconventional. Notice I did not make a list of literal shapes, sizes, and names and that none of the scans I provided alludes to that? And during the downgrade thread I repeatedly corrected OP on this matter but OP and their supporters continued to repeat that I made this argument.
3. Provided scans out of context and Presented false information
In this section, I will go through OP's arguments and show that they took scans out of context or provided the wrong information.A. The Silver Crystals and Sailor Crystals are purely physical
That thread presented this scan:
Uh... maybe the floor is conceptual?
Post with 117 views. Uh... maybe the floor is conceptual?
imgchest.com
This was used as evidence that sailor crystals are physical. However, they completely left out the important plot point that the light and power of the silver crystal left the physical crystal and left it powerless, and entered Mamoru. One of the central plot point of this section of Arc 1 is about the silver crystal being useless because it doesn't have its power anymore. OP did not include this scan from the fifth arc, where the characters blatantly state that the Sailor Crystals are "distillations of mysterious power." They also left out the scene where Galaxia breaks the physical crystal to get the sailor crystal inside. In another scene, the sailor crystals are compared in opposition to the physical bodies.
Star Seeds exist inside the crystal and are the power of the crystals. This is stated outright in the series. And the series has again and again, made it clear that the crystal is not the physical glass but the actual power inside of it.
Sailor Moon, herself dissolved her own crystal and remade it with the help of Mamoru after an enemy took it from her. Her remade crystal is just a ball of pure of light before eventually reverting back to a physical form. Proving, that again, it's the power inside it that matters. Not the object.
Here is another scan provided without proper context:
The thread goes, " For contrast, as conveniently mentioned in the quote box above, there's a scene where Hotaru has to protect both souls and crystals as a disembodied spirit herself, and while the souls are depicted as ghost-like objects, the crystal is depicted as a physical object. "
The thread wants you to believe that this evidence of the crystal being physical because Chibi-Usa is holding it physical. What they fail to mention, is this scene occurs in a non-physical spiritual/mental/astral realm. Chibi Usa's soul and crystal were absorbed by Mistress 9. Her disembodied soul is now wondering that nonphysical space in search of her crystal. If the crystal was purely physical, it would not be able to exist in this astral realm.
Here are some additional supporting scenes:
1. In that same scene, Hotaru tells Chibiusa that the crystal is like her heart, and that she must keep it safe in her heart. Here is the translator's note for that scene.
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
So it's obvious that the narrative treats the crystals as being more than just something physical.
2. In the anime, which can be used to supplement the manga, the crystal turns into pure energy before being absorbed.
3. Both Chibi-Usa's soul and silver crystal get absorbed into her body. How can the silver crystal be purely physical when it behaves similar to an abstract soul?
4. When Chibi Usa's summons her compact, it appears as pure light/energy and then transforms into the physical version she uses.
B. Sailor Saturn was just using the power of friendship
That thread had this statement:
"This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn. Rereading the scan shows it's a very vague, poetic, self-encouraging statement about Hotaru having a greater purpose in the grand scheme of things than she realizes, and therefore needing to save others. Moreover, the arc is about Hotaru learning to value friendship mainly as a civilian, which works against the idea that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn, which regardless is a high-end interpretation of poetic text, used to formulate another high-end interpretation that her identity as Sailor Saturn means her star seed (which hadn't been introduced by this point in the manga) rather than in itself, still referring to having a purpose higher than herself as an individual."
Sorry but this just an objectively wrong interpretation. This is the scan in question.
Hotaru is obviously talking about Sailor Saturn. Here in this scene, Hotaru is a disembodied soul fighting an eldritch horror from another universe, trying to keep the souls of her friends safe. So yes, even while just a soul, Sailor Saturn exists as an even deeper form of Hotaru, showing that the sailor crystals are much more fundamental than hotaru's soul. Sailor Saturn is able to awaken, even after Hotaru's body and soul were destroyed. If you don't believe me, here is what the anime has to say about this scene.
Link in case Imgur doesn't work
This same motif is again repeated in the next arc, with Sailor Saturn deliberately saying, "the you that sleeps within you".
"Poetic language" has frankly been used many times to wave away feats of magical girls series. Throwing away an entire emotional scene as being "just power of friendship" is not something that should ever be taken seriously.
C. On the Black Crystal
The thread also presented this scan:
As evidence of the crystal being used as a reactor means it's physical. Personally, I don't understand this argument as one can use a nonphysical source to power a machine, but they did however completely left out context again. The planet Nemesis naturally has fusion core, and is made of black crystal. The Dark Moon Clan built a reactor on the planet to harness the power released by the planet's fusion core. They didn't create the black crystal in a laboratory or alter it in a laboratory, or used it as a battery for a fusion core they built. It naturally has power.
Again, the crystals can have physical manifestations that people can utilize, but ultimately, the power inside them is what matters.
D. Evidence Padding
For some reason the downgrade thread includes, "The place where star seeds are born, Sagittarius Zero Star, the location of the Galaxy Cauldron in the center of the Universe, also has physical phenomena like fog and extreme density."
There's a lot of incorrect information here. Princess Kakyuu calls the center of the galaxy where the stars are denser Sagittarius A. She then says, "Farther within at the center of the Sagittarius A is Sagittarius's Zero Star, the Galaxy Cauldron. " The area with "extreme density" is the center of the galaxy. The scan of the supposed fog, is not the Galaxy Cauldron, it's a location within Sagittarius A. OP is presenting areas not inside the galaxy cauldron as if they were.
I have no idea why these scans were even included in this CRT. Sagittarius Alpha Star is a physical place. No one has ever argued that it's not. The Galaxy Cauldron located at the center, is where the star seeds are born, and is nonphysical and not depicted in any of the scans provided. I really don't see the purpose of trying to include these scans and argument other than to confuse mods and to pad their evidence.
OP knows this because they included the scans of the actual Galaxy Cauldron when they spoke about Mamoru being erased by it.
4. Nothing actually was debunked
DontTalk here says, that the definition of a concept type 1 is the requirements for it. And anything that fits its requirements for it, should be considered a Type 1 Concept.Here is what the Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 says:
Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
Everything under the heavens: All living things and all celestial object, comes from a star seed. It is the fundamental aspect of the entire Sailor Moon series.
A. Independent from reality:
This means these concepts are unaffected by the destruction of the form. If you destroy all chairs, the type 1 concept of chairs still remain.
Star seeds give form to individuals. The destruction of that individual does not affect the star seed.
Hotaru's body and soul were destroyed by Mistress 9, yet her Sailor Crystal was unaffected and it allowed her to regenerate when she awakened as Sailor Saturn.
The Sailor Animamates, are people who use the power of stolen Sailor Crystals. For example, Sailor Aluminum Siren has the sailor crystal of Sailor Mermaid. Even though Sailor Mermaid is dead, her Sailor Crystal lives on independently without her.
Mamoru was killed in the present timeline, yet in the future, his daughter was unaffected and his future self was not immediately affected. And when his physical body eventually began to fade away due to the changes in the timeline, his crystal is what kept him alive and still in existence.
B. Governs reality:
This means that changing or destroying the concept should alter reality. If you destroy the type 1 concept of chairs, then all chairs in reality will cease to exist.
When Mamoru fell into the Galaxy Cauldron, his Sailor Crystal was erased. This caused his future, and future daughter to be immediately erased. And for further context, the move which we can use as reference, shows that he was erased in the past, present, and future.
The crt thread tries to explain it away as being actuality negation, but that just doesn't fly here and doesn't explain why he was erased in the past as well.
4. Conclusion
That original crt thread is a wall of text filled with scans taken out of context. OP never once included the context of the plot or story because it's obvious that the arguments they made would instantly evaporate. And when a scan clearly makes objective statements, OP just argues that it's poetic language so they never have to actually address the argument.Star Seeds and Sailor Crystals fit in the requirements for Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Therefore they get to be indexed as Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. It's the same standard that every other verse on this site gets beholden too.
Voting Tally
Agree: @FinePoint, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @LordGriffin1000
Disagree:
Neutral:
Last edited:
