Operation: Star Destroyer

[AsterReal]

Well the thread will pass if the moderators think that there's enough evidence for them to vote for it, if your translation doesn't come out in time that is. But once it does, nothing prevents you from making another thread in the future if you feel that it was wrongly downgraded. As of now though, the translations seem to be pretty darn solid.

Thank you. If it is the case I will reverse the degradation if it is approved.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

With this thread, what I get the impression is that there was never an actual depiction that shows "This is the power to manipulate concepts/ideas/forms/etc and it can do X", but rather "There's this power, and it has all these different abilities that can be done by something on a conceptual level, so it might as well be considered Conceptual Manipulation". I don't think that is how these things should work, but maybe that is just me (I don't know if the notes were removed in a revision because it was decided it could be allowed, or it was thought back then it was unnecessary. If someone can clarify this to me it would be helpful).

What OP is missing is that Sailor Moon uses metaphysical equalization. This was left out of OP.

I am away, but tomorrow I can explain more.

 

[MeiouHades]

What OP is missing is that Sailor Moon uses metaphysical equalization. This was left out of OP.

That only works to equalize abilities during VS matches. You still however need to qualify for CM to get CM.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That only works to equalize abilities during VS matches. You still however need to qualify for CM to get CM.

This is not true in anway shape or form. And i literally said i’ll explain tomorrow. Just chill for a bit.

 

[Robo432343]

Thanks for the input! But nah, the crystals are accepted as Type 2 Information for now, so that’d still remain. This thread is just a response to CM1.

But your original post already showed that the info 2 rating should be downgraded to info type 1 unironically. For info type 2 the information in the verse needs to be a fundamental building block of reality.

These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality.

you debunked the information being a fundamental building block of reality bit without realizing it i think
And if you look at the justification for info 2 on sailor moons profile it only extends to info type 1.

so high godly regen should be nuked anyway

 

[MeiouHades]

But your original post already showed that the info 2 rating should be downgraded to info type 1 unironically. For info type 2 the information in the verse needs to be a fundamental building block of reality.

you debunked the information being a fundamental building block of reality bit without realizing it i think
And if you look at the justification for info 2 on sailor moons profile it only extends to info type 1.

so high godly regen should be nuked anyway

The Starseed still is a fundamental building block in the verse, that's not going away. What we've shown however is that it doesn't qualify for CM Type 1. Anything related to Info type 2 or more will be done later.

 

[Vietthai96]

But your original post already showed that the info 2 rating should be downgraded to info type 1 unironically. For info type 2 the information in the verse needs to be a fundamental building block of reality.

you debunked the information being a fundamental building block of reality bit without realizing it i think
And if you look at the justification for info 2 on sailor moons profile it only extends to info type 1.

so high godly regen should be nuked anyway

Actually, iirc, the argument for info 2 was starseed being fundamental and have effects similar to Info 2.....but anyway this should be in another thread, we should focus on CM1 first

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Agree just because you tried to spite downgrade Dragon ball

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Isn't this was rejected before? I remember someone make downgrade/remove CM but it was rejected, isn't??

 

[Hasty12345]

Isn't this was rejected before? I remember someone make downgrade/remove CM but it was rejected, isn't??

Different arguments

 

[Vietthai96]

Isn't this was rejected before? I remember someone make downgrade/remove CM but it was rejected, isn't??

Tbh here, the first downgrade was accepted, but @Iamunanimousinthat made a new thread to re-add CM1 and Info 2, with one new japanese scan, the scan that was mistranslated as you could see in the OP

 

[ChoursDropoff]

But your original post already showed that the info 2 rating should be downgraded to info type 1 unironically. For info type 2 the information in the verse needs to be a fundamental building block of reality.

you debunked the information being a fundamental building block of reality bit without realizing it i think
And if you look at the justification for info 2 on sailor moons profile it only extends to info type 1.

so high godly regen should be nuked anyway

Regardless that wasn’t the point of the thread, doing too much at once will only complicate things.

Agree just because you tried to spite downgrade Dragon ball

Baseless accusations won’t help the cause.

Good work though I agree with the downgrade.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Tbh here, the first downgrade was accepted, but @Iamunanimousinthat made a new thread to re-add CM1 and Info 2, with one new japanese scan, the scan that was mistranslated as you could see in the OP

Wasn't that upgrade controversial? Something about vote manip

 

[ZillionZeutron]

Bro. I was gone for like maybe 4 hours because i was sleeping and i missed everything

Did the opposition really make a spite thread for DB?

 

[MeiouHades]

Wasn't that upgrade controversial? Something about vote manip

It was, but we won't discuss that here. The only thing left to do here is to just wait for staff, that is what we're gonna do.

Bro. I was gone for like maybe 4 hours because i was sleeping and i missed everything

Did the opposition really make a spite thread for DB?

I'll say it here. No they didn't. No more accusations please.

 

[ZillionZeutron]

I'll say it here. No they didn't. No more accusations please.

Alright, ill refrain from making comments like that again i apologize

Anyway, doesn’t this thread already have 2 mod agreements? how many more are needed?

 

[Eseseso]

As a mod you better be careful making false accusations.

You need to chill, PRONTO.

 

[AsterReal]

Alright, ill refrain from making comments like that again i apologize

Anyway, doesn’t this thread already have 2 mod agreements? how many more are needed?

They need three and only have one.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

With this thread, what I get the impression is that there was never an actual depiction that shows "This is the power to manipulate concepts/ideas/forms/etc and it can do X", but rather "There's this power, and it has all these different abilities that can be done by something on a conceptual level, so it might as well be considered Conceptual Manipulation". I don't think that is how these things should work, but maybe that is just me (I don't know if the notes were removed in a revision because it was decided it could be allowed, or it was thought back then it was unnecessary. If someone can clarify this to me it would be helpful).

There is actual depiction of "this is the power to manipulate concepts"

But first, are you familiar with the Metaphysical Aspect Page? Star Seeds are indexed as conceptual Type 1 via Metaphysical Equivalence. Star Seeds are the fundamental aspect of Sailor Moon. However because they are a unique, we can equalize them to other fundamental aspects on the wiki that already have ability pages like Conceptual Manipulation and Information.

Like concepts, Star Seeds give form to things. And like independent type 1s, star seeds are unaffected by the destruction of the form, but the destruction of the star seed, destroys the form across reality.

Characters like Sailor Galaxia can manipulate Star Seeds directly. (Imgur seems to be out of order, I'll post scans when its back). So yes, There is the power to manipulate them.

Also the arguments that OP gives, that x is just causality/immortality, doesn't work, because these are properties of the star seeds. No one actively uses these abilities, these are just the inherent outcomes of the star seeds. Like all concepts would inherently have acausaslity negation and immortality negation, because by defintion, if you destroy them, all forms must be destroyed no matter what.

 

[SailorRanger64]

To scrutinize this statement, first things first: there is no mention of the Cauldron directly creating possibilities or potential in an abstract, metaphysical manner. These scans must be considered alongside their role in the story. The context here, for the 'possibilities' part, is referring to how Stars (which, as we know, includes living beings as well) here come to life, which then by itself brings along many possibilities with it. There's a reason why it says "Stars, and possibilities...", because as I said it isn't creating literal possibilities on its own, but rather it gives birth to Stars that themselves will go on to birth possibilities as well.

Can you prove that the cauldron does not create possibilities and potential in an abstract, metaphysical manner? I would like to see evidence for this. The word star is used both literally and metaphorically in Sailor Moon, stars are obviously called stars, but also are planets, moons, and celestial objects. People and individuals are called stars as well. The Tau Star System, an alternate dimension, has a star seed, in fact, we see Pharaoh 90 and Mistress 9 state that it is the source of the dimension’s power. Chaos itself, a non-physical being, has the Chaos Seed which is Chaos’s core, which also proves that non-physical beings can have star seeds too. I need to see proof that it doesn’t create literal possibilities.

So overall, "Possibilities" is being used in the most broad 'there are new opportunities' sense possible. It's the same thing with the "potential" statement.

Can you prove this with a scan? You have to prove it’s being used in a broad sense.

What does it say? Well, it says that they (the living things) all comes in different shapes, sizes and have different names, but everything with live/all living things also grow from Star Seeds. This is matters because the panel here does not say that Star Seeds are creating names, shapes and sizes, it directly states that although they all have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things do come from a Star Seed.

Counterpoint, this page says that everything that makes a sailor guardian is contained in their sailor crystal. By that logic, the Thyoron Crystal contains or encompasses everything that makes the Tau Star System and its inhabitants what they are, including Pharaoh 90, a non-physical being. The Thyoron Crystal was losing power and dying, therefore the Tau System was also dying since Pharaoh 90 described it "as its source of life." The Cosmos Seed is the seed for the cosmos, but the individual stars, universes, planets, people etc, have their own star seeds that come from the cauldron too.

Now, why was this misinterpreted to mean that Star Seeds would create shapes and sizes? The answer lies in the English panel itself, it misses the word "although" which makes the distinction between statement 2 and statement 3 here. So the dialogue, more naturally, would be something like "And not just the stars, although they have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things also come from Star Seeds" which ironically is the EXACT thing Executor says, he included the word "although" because it is crucial to make that distinction here, and I do trust his judgement. To add insult to injury, we asked another Japanese native speaker for input, and they also confirmed that this scan does not indicate that star seeds are the origin of shapes, sizes, and names, but that the things that star seeds create have different shapes, sizes, and names.

That’s not what the manga says. It does not have the word although in the page at all. Furthermore, we know that dimensions and non-physical beings can have star seeds.

but if their Crystal is destroyed, then they are erased from the future as well (Acausality neg), and their actions are reverted too, hence Kamen's daughter dying in the future as a result of her dad dying too.

It wasn’t that his actions were reverted, he was erased from history all at once. Saying reverted means his actions were sent back to a previous state, which is not what happened.

This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn.

If it wasn’t Sailor Saturn, then who was it? In the Dreams arc, Sailor Saturn states that she is "the self that sleeps inside Hotaru." And in Infinity Arc Sailor Saturn wakes up and refers to the fact that when Hotaru suffered that accident, her soul was not supposed to wake up. Which means that "that bigger self" was indeed Sailor Saturn.

I decided to look up what the wiki says about Metaphysical Aspects and here's what I came across: Overall what this says sounds like Star Seeds to me.

Sorry if it’s long, but I don’t think there’s enough concrete evidence for this thread to be approved or to downgrade anything with the contradictions here.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn. Rereading the scan shows it's a very vague, poetic, self-encouraging statement about Hotaru having a greater purpose in the grand scheme of things than she realizes, and therefore needing to save others. Moreover, the arc is about Hotaru learning to value friendship mainly as a civilian, which works against the idea that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn, which regardless is a high-end interpretation of poetic text, used to formulate another high-end interpretation that her identity as Sailor Saturn means her star seed (which hadn't been introduced by this point in the manga) rather than in itself, still referring to having a purpose higher than herself as an individual.

Just to show everyone how disingenuous this interpretation is, Hotaru in this scene is a disembodied soul and she is literally fighting a eldritch demon from another dimension who took over her body and is trying to protect the souls of the sailor senshi. To say that this scene is about Hotaru learning to value friendship as a civilian is just plain wrong and quite silly. And I really don't' understand what is the point to make up such a fake story, to discredit this scene.

The bigger self is obviously Sailor Saturn telling Hotaru to keep fighting on, and again the in next arc, like Jawbreaker has shown, we again see Sailor Saturn talking to Hotaru and telling her she needs to awaken.

This tactic of waving away scenes from Sailor Moon as "it's just poetic" is getting really old.

 

[MeiouHades]

There is actual depiction of "this is the power to manipulate concepts"

There is no such depiction.

But first, are you familiar with the Metaphysical Aspect Page? Star Seeds are indexed as conceptual Type 1 via Metaphysical Equivalence. Star Seeds are the fundamental aspect of Sailor Moon. However because they are a unique, we can equalize them to other fundamental aspects on the wiki that already have ability pages like Conceptual Manipulation and Information.

No, we cannot do that unless you prove first why they qualify for Conceptual Manipulation in the first place. Metaphysical equalization isn't some "get out of jail free" card that you can use to avoid presenting the requisite evidence. You can, at best, equalize some aspects given their statements or their function but conceptual manipulation generally, or Starseeds being conceptual in their very nature? Not gonna happen without explicit evidence. And like I said before, all of those have other, lower-end and far more reasonable and sensible explanations than just "concept manipulation". This is what Executor says.

Like concepts, Star Seeds give form to things. And like independent type 1s, star seeds are unaffected by the destruction of the form, but the destruction of the star seed, destroys the form across reality.

This is nowhere close to what you need for Type 1 Concepts. This wouldn't even work as evidence for a Type 3 Concept. The first part is just Starseeds creating all life or celestial objects and the last part is just Acausality being negged because Starseeds provide Acausality. That's all.

Characters like Sailor Galaxia can manipulate Star Seeds directly. (Imgur seems to be out of order, I'll post scans when its back). So yes, There is the power to manipulate them.

Yeah, no. Treating "Type 1 Concepts" as literal physical crystals to be manipulated as shown by your example along with many in the OP doesn't help your argument at all, these aren't some Platonic concepts that independently govern all reality and exist unbound by said reality. This is literally just a glorified in-verse mechanic/power system, please stop taking things hyperliterally.

Also the arguments that OP gives, that x is just causality/immortality, doesn't work, because these are properties of the star seeds.

Acausality/reliant immortality can be properties of the Starseeds, they're not mutually exclusive.

No one actively uses these abilities, these are just the inherent outcomes of the star seeds.

Not sure what this means? Kamen dying in the past but his future self still being alive thanks to his Starseed still existing is quite literally the most blatant use-case of such an ability. Just because the manga doesn't go "Oh hey look he survived cuz of his Starseed's ability to provide Acausality" doesn't mean we can't see that that's literally what's going on here

Like all concepts would inherently have acausaslity negation and immortality negation, because by defintion, if you destroy them, all forms must be destroyed no matter what.

No one's saying that concepts can't have acausality neg or immortality neg (not sure if Type 3 can have those always though but I digress), we're saying that you don't need to be a concept to possess those abilities and let's be real, this is literally one of your main if not your only argument for Starseeds being concepts. You're still operating under this weird notion that Starseeds being conceptual is unquestionable, you're not even able to consider the possibility that the angle we're arguing with here goes against that notion and assertion and directly challenges it. So I will ask once again, do you have any evidence for Starseeds qualifying for Type 1 Concepts in general? Your best evidence, as glassman stated, was the names and shapes statement that was clearly a mistranslation and something you've stated wasn't your argument, so what is your argument then?

 

[MeiouHades]

Can you prove that the cauldron does not create possibilities and potential in an abstract, metaphysical manner? I would like to see evidence for this. The word star is used both literally and metaphorically in Sailor Moon, stars are obviously called stars, but also are planets, moons, and celestial objects. People and individuals are called stars as well. The Tau Star System, an alternate dimension, has a star seed, in fact, we see Pharaoh 90 and Mistress 9 state that it is the source of the dimension’s power. Chaos itself, a non-physical being, has the Chaos Seed which is Chaos’s core, which also proves that non-physical beings can have star seeds too. I need to see proof that it doesn’t create literal possibilities.

None of this matters, when the term "possibilities" itself has no actual evidence of being used in an abstract, metaphysical manner. And what does that term here mean anyway? A logically contingent possibility? A nomological possibility? It's your job to provide context and to what "possibilities" here really entails. There's several interpretations for it, and we're not going with the highest possible just because, with no evidence to back that particular interpretation.

Can you prove this with a scan? You have to prove it’s being used in a broad sense.

It's a logical inference, you're the one who has to prove that it refers to literal possibilities. Again, as I said, there are interpretations and yours is high-end and it's gonna require evidence. Let's not pretend that this isn't just flowery text, and while that on its own isn't enough to dismiss any arguments, I'm not doing that here. It's totally viable your interpretation is legit, if you have evidence for it.

Counterpoint, this page says that everything that makes a sailor guardian is contained in their sailor crystal. By that logic, the Thyoron Crystal contains or encompasses everything that makes the Tau Star System and its inhabitants what they are, including Pharaoh 90, a non-physical being. The Thyoron Crystal was losing power and dying, therefore the Tau System was also dying since Pharaoh 90 described it "as its source of life." The Cosmos Seed is the seed for the cosmos, but the individual stars, universes, planets, people etc, have their own star seeds that come from the cauldron too.

I no longer buy the Cosmos seed point since there's no evidence for it, but besides that, none of this helps any argument nor are they on their own enough to support a Type 1 Conceptual nature for Starseeds. Creating non-physical or incorporeal beings doesn't grant you a level of transcendence of that nature.

That’s not what the manga says. It does not have the word although in the page at all. Furthermore, we know that dimensions and non-physical beings can have star seeds.

The meaning is still the same, and as glass said, there's not really any errors with the translations here and Executor himself had appeared here and seen his translation being used here, so it can be used. The term although just makes understanding the dialogue easier because it IS written in a really weird way which is how this misinterpretation initially passed for Concept Type 1. We have to show what this conversation really means to debunk that notion. Now that you're aware of what it means, you can remove "although" if you like and you'll see it still retains the same meaning, that's all.

It wasn’t that his actions were reverted, he was erased from history all at once. Saying reverted means his actions were sent back to a previous state, which is not what happened.

This is just pedantic, the point here is that a father got erased and therefore he cannot have his child anymore, a classic grandfather's paradox. Saying it "didn't get reverted" doesn't really help your argument here. So yeah his action, conceiving his child, did get reverted. I don't know why you even bring this up because it's just such a non-issue. A normal causal chain is restored after the erasure of Kamen and his Crystal, and unfortunately her daughter's own "Type 1 concept" Starseed wasn't able to save her from the restoration of the causal chain.

If it wasn’t Sailor Saturn, then who was it? In the Dreams arc, Sailor Saturn states that she is "the self that sleeps inside Hotaru." And in Infinity Arc Sailor Saturn wakes up and refers to the fact that when Hotaru suffered that accident, her soul was not supposed to wake up. Which means that "that bigger self" was indeed Sailor Saturn.

This is mostly an irrelevant part to the main focus of the CRT so I'm not gonna really talk about this, Profectus or others can argue it later if they wish to.

I decided to look up what the wiki says about Metaphysical Aspects and here's what I came across: Overall what this says sounds like Star Seeds to me.

Well it sounding like Starseeds to user JawbreakerAlumni is unfortunately not a qualifier that's on the Concept Manipulation page, you need explicit and specific evidence to qualify for it. Like that names and shapes statement, if it wasn't a mistranslation.

Sorry if it’s long, but I don’t think there’s enough concrete evidence for this thread to be approved or to downgrade anything with the contradictions here.

It wasn't long, not even close.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

There is actual depiction of "this is the power to manipulate concepts"

Well dont keep us waiting. If you got the slam dunk, post it

 

[MeiouHades]

In any case, I'll be resting now. Others can argue in my stead while I'm gone. Please do call more mods as well it seems they didn't respond to @Theglassman12's call.

 

[SailorRanger64]

None of this matters, when the term "possibilities" itself has no actual evidence of being used in an abstract, metaphysical manner. And what does that term here mean anyway? A logically contingent possibility? A nomological possibility? It's your job to provide context and to what "possibilities" here really entails. There's several interpretations for it, and we're not going with the highest possible just because, with no evidence to back that particular interpretation.

It's a logical inference, you're the one who has to prove that it refers to literal possibilities. Again, as I said, there are interpretations and yours is high-end and it's gonna require evidence. Let's not pretend that this isn't just flowery text, and while that on its own isn't enough to dismiss any arguments, I'm not doing that here. It's totally viable your interpretation is legit, if you have evidence for it.

Actually no it's not my job to prove it because you haven't really proven anything, you guys made the thread for the sole purpose of downgrading Star Seeds and the Galaxy Cauldron, therefore I need you guys to find anything that explicitly says that the Galaxy Cauldron and Star Seeds do not create all possibilities, potential, beings, objects, power and abilities. This is a double edged sword argument, because while the manga doesn't spell out every detail about possibilities for me, you have no evidence of it being false and not being used metaphysically.

I no longer buy the Cosmos seed point since there's no evidence for it

Behold, the evidence.

The meaning is still the same, and as glass said, there's not really any errors with the translations here and Executor himself had appeared here and seen his translation being used here, so it can be used. The term although just makes understanding the dialogue easier because it IS written in a really weird way which is how this misinterpretation initially passed for Concept Type 1. We have to show what this conversation really means to debunk that notion. Now that you're aware of what it means, you can remove "although" if you like and you'll see it still retains the same meaning, that's all.

Well I have the manga, and the translation given here contradicts what the manga says.

This is just pedantic, the point here is that a father got erased and therefore he cannot have his child anymore, a classic grandfather's paradox. Saying it "didn't get reverted" doesn't really help your argument here. So yeah his action, conceiving his child, did get reverted. I don't know why you even bring this up because it's just such a non-issue. A normal causal chain is restored after the erasure of Kamen and his Crystal, and unfortunately her daughter's own "Type 1 concept" Starseed wasn't able to save her from the restoration of the causal chain.

Well there's a difference between reverted and just erased from existence, the former didn't happen, the latter did.

This is mostly an irrelevant part to the main focus of the CRT so I'm not gonna really talk about this, Profectus or others can argue it later if they wish to.

So, now the Sailor Saturn part doesn't matter?

Well it sounding like Starseeds to user JawbreakerAlumni is unfortunately not a qualifier that's on the Concept Manipulation page, you need explicit and specific evidence to qualify for it. Like that names and shapes statement, if it wasn't a mistranslation.

The page never says it has to be explicit so can you or anyone else explain star seeds not being metaphysical then?

This is honestly much simpler than what people think but when trying to complicate it you end up contradicting yourself more than making your point and it ultimately becomes a moot point.

 

[Hasty12345]

Actually no it's not my job to prove it because you haven't really proven anything,

Your stance makes the positive claim that these words hold a specific meaning in context, it is the burden of the claimant to prove their position.

The reasoning in the OP is valid and doesn’t require evidence to prove a negative because the reasoning provided demonstrates the flaw in your claim.

You can’t make a claim then push the burden onto others to disprove it. That would be like if I claimed the graviton existed because gravity exists then asserted it as a fact then push the onus onto you to disprove it. The fact gravity exists doesn’t necessitate the existence of the graviton.

Your statement does necessitate your interpretation. That’s the problem with your claim. You cannot prove a negative, you’re asking them to do something entirely impossible.

 

[SailorRanger64]

Your stance makes the positive claim that these words hold a specific meaning in context, it is the burden of the claimant to prove their position.

My stance was that it is a double edged sword because even though it doesn't spell out how possibilities work, there is no evidence of it being false and not used metaphysically unless they can find proof of this.

The reasoning in the OP is valid and doesn’t require evidence to prove a negative because the reasoning provided demonstrates the flaw in your claim.

It would be valid if the reasoning didn't contradict what the manga says, so yes evidence is required to prove the reasoning correct.

You can’t make a claim then push the burden onto others to disprove it. That would be like if I claimed the graviton existed because gravity exists then asserted it as a fact then push the onus onto you to disprove it. The fact gravity exists doesn’t necessitate the existence of the graviton.

Your statement does necessitate your interpretation. That’s the problem with your claim. You cannot prove a negative, you’re asking them to do something entirely impossible.

...So basically exactly what the OP did. All I've done is proven the contradictions. If OP wants to be proven right, I'm willing to extend an olive branch and see if they find anything that proves the cauldron and the seeds are not what they say they are, otherwise this whole thread/argument is a moot point.

 

[Hasty12345]

My stance was that it is a double edged sword because even though it doesn't spell out how possibilities work, there is no evidence of it being false and not used metaphysically unless they can find proof of this.

The rest of your comment is irrelevant, you highlighted what the problem is with your stance right here. You're just assuming the highest possible interpretation of a vague statement that has no in-verse context to prove it means what you say it does. You're just claiming a position and asserting everyone else has to disprove it.

This thread is already fairly generous in how is debunks the argument, realistically Occam's Razor is probably sufficient to debunk the abilities from the moment the mistranslation was found.

 

[SailorRanger64]

The rest of your comment is irrelevant, you highlighted what the problem is with your stance right here. You're just assuming the highest possible interpretation of a vague statement that has no in-verse context to prove it means what you say it does. You're just claiming a position and asserting everyone else has to disprove it.

This thread is already fairly generous in how is debunks the argument, realistically Occam's Razor is probably sufficient to debunk the abilities from the moment the mistranslation was found.

Like how OP assumes that it's false with no evidence? Like I said, this argument goes both ways and will continue until OP can prove otherwise. I'm not claiming a position, I'm simply asking for evidence and proof of what OP says.

 

[Hasty12345]

Like how OP assumes that it's false with no evidence? Like I said, this argument goes both ways and will continue until OP can prove otherwise.

That's not how this works, you can't assume something is true then assert saying it's not true is an assumption and thus your position is still true. This is 2nd grade playground debate level logic

 

[SailorRanger64]

That's not how this works, you can't assume something is true then assert saying it's not true is an assumption and thus your position is still true. This is 2nd grade playground debate level logic

So what's this then in the OP?

To scrutinize this statement, first things first: there is no mention of the Cauldron directly creating possibilities or potential in an abstract, metaphysical manner. These scans must be considered alongside their role in the story.

So overall, "Possibilities" is being used in the most broad 'there are new opportunities' sense possible. It's the same thing with the "potential" statement.

 

[Hasty12345]

So what's this then in the OP?

It's called reasoning, and it's more than what your position has. It's a valid debunk and as I said, it's already generous.

 

[SailorRanger64]

It's called reasoning, and it's more than what your position has. It's a valid debunk and as I said, it's already generous.

It would be reasoning if it didn't contradict what the manga says. So I guess you don't any scans or pages that can prove OP right?

 

[Hasty12345]

It would be reasoning if it didn't contradict what the manga says. So I guess you don't any scans or pages that can prove OP right?

This is getting circular. I won't respond to you unless you make a new counter argument.

 

[MeiouHades]

Actually no it's not my job to prove it because you haven't really proven anything, you guys made the thread for the sole purpose of downgrading Star Seeds and the Galaxy Cauldron, therefore I need you guys to find anything that explicitly says that the Galaxy Cauldron and Star Seeds do not create all possibilities, potential, beings, objects, power and abilities.

The sole purpose of this thread was to downgrade CM Type 1, and we've done so by showing that out of all those things, exactly none really qualify for CM Type 1 definition. You, yes you, need to do the work here and prove that possibilities and potential here refer to literal, abstract possibilities if you want CM Type 1 based off of that. I already gave you an example of what kind of evidence can work, if the names and shapes part wasn't a mistranslation, it would work well just as glass had said.

This is a double edged sword argument, because while the manga doesn't spell out every detail about possibilities for me, you have no evidence of it being false and not being used metaphysically.

If the manga doesn't give you evidence, then you should concede. I'm not asking for every single thing to be spelled out either, just any solid reasoning to support taking all statements at their highest possible interpretation. If you don't have this, like you said, then please stop arguing and wait for this thread to pass.

Behold, the evidence.

Don't see any. Can you give me any evidence of the Cosmos seed giving form to or creating the universe? The destruction of the Cauldron doesn't even immediately destroy the universe (if at all actually) so I find it hard to believe that the seed is all that important. SM's ending is pretty darn ambiguous so yeah, unless you have specific statement or evidence, I ain't buyin' it.

Well I have the manga, and the translation given here contradicts what the manga says.

Everyone who has read the thread so far has come to the conclusion that the translation is wrong, not even unanimous is defending that, and good for him because it was wrong. So no, the translation wasn't correct and it's high time to just admit that.

Well there's a difference between reverted and just erased from existence, the former didn't happen, the latter did.

You can't prove that. Having his Starseed destroyed meant negating his Acausality, and an action can't be "erased" (whatever that means) but they CAN be reverted which is what happened here. Not to mention, the fact that Kamen's daughter's "Type 1 Concept Starseed" couldn't save her from being erased by a very simply causal chain linking her father to her is proof of the fact that these objects aren't some fundamental concepts of reality like you all claim they are. Not to mention we've shown examples and statements of these "concepts" being manipulated and treated like normal, mundane glass crystals going as far as breaking one into pieces as well as using nuclear fusion with one. None of these indicate some abstract, independent universal concept.

So, now the Sailor Saturn part doesn't matter?

I didn't say it didn't, I said I won't really be arguing it since that isn't the crux of the argument that is removing Type 1 concepts.

The page never says it has to be explicit so can you or anyone else explain star seeds not being metaphysical then?

You said it yourself, it has to be explicit yet you do not possess explicit evidence here.

This is honestly much simpler than what people think but when trying to complicate it you end up contradicting yourself more than making your point and it ultimately becomes a moot point.

It is much simpler I agree, there's no need to complicate what is just a normal, physical glass crystal into this stupid, abstract independent universal concept that it has no business or evidence being nor is there a need to interpret everything hyperliterally. The crystals are offering simple Acausality and power bestowal, nothing more. And maybe some form of creation or biological manipulation as well.

 

[SailorRanger64]

The sole purpose of this thread was to downgrade CM Type 1, and we've done so by showing that out of all those things, exactly none really qualify for CM Type 1 definition. You, yes you, need to do the work here and prove that possibilities and potential here refer to literal, abstract possibilities if you want CM Type 1 based off of that. I already gave you an example of what kind of evidence can work, if the names and shapes part wasn't a mistranslation, it would work well just as glass had said.

You say I need to do the work, well I did in my first post in this thread. I noted out of context statements, contradictions, and in the case of what you said about Sailor Saturn, just incorrect.

If the manga doesn't give you evidence, then you should concede. I'm not asking for every single thing to be spelled out either, just any solid reasoning to support taking all statements at their highest possible interpretation. If you don't have this, like you said, then please stop arguing and wait for this thread to pass.

Very well then, I'll stop arguing if you cannot provide evidence to support your claims.

Don't see any. Can you give me any evidence of the Cosmos seed giving form to or creating the universe? The destruction of the Cauldron doesn't even immediately destroy the universe (if at all actually) so I find it hard to believe that the seed is all that important. SM's ending is pretty darn ambiguous so yeah, unless you have specific statement or evidence, I ain't buyin' it.

The cauldron was never destroyed, Usagi chose not to do so. Plus I gave you the Tau Star System having a star seed, so the Cosmos Seed would work the same way but for existence, not just the universe.

Everyone who has read the thread so far has come to the conclusion that the translation is wrong, not even unanimous is defending that, and good for him because it was wrong. So no, the translation wasn't correct and it's high time to just admit that.

You're right, your translation was incorrect, I've already proven that.

You can't prove that. Having his Starseed destroyed meant negating his Acausality, and an action can't be "erased" (whatever that means) but they CAN be reverted which is what happened here. Not to mention, the fact that Kamen's daughter's "Type 1 Concept Starseed" couldn't save her from being erased by a very simply causal chain linking her father to her is proof of the fact that these objects aren't some fundamental concepts of reality like you all claim they are. Not to mention we've shown examples and statements of these "concepts" being manipulated and treated like normal, mundane glass crystals going as far as breaking one into pieces as well as using nuclear fusion with one. None of these indicate some abstract, independent universal concept.

Pretty sure I did, again it's in my first post.

I didn't say it didn't, I said I won't really be arguing it since that isn't the crux of the argument that is removing Type 1 concepts.

However you also said:

This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn.

You said it yourself, it has to be explicit yet you do not possess explicit evidence here.

Well now you're just using my words to make your argument look better.

It is much simpler I agree, there's no need to complicate what is just a normal, physical glass crystal into this stupid, abstract independent universal concept that it has no business or evidence being nor is there a need to interpret everything hyperliterally. The crystals are offering simple Acausality and power bestowal, nothing more. And maybe some form of creation or biological manipulation as well.

The word possibility is being used similarly to the word stars, that’s the simplest position. Your argument is assuming the word star and possibility are being used differently even though they are in the same sentence cause. Let me ask you a question: Why do you believe half predicate of the sentence is literal and the other half is not literal?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Snip

Agree with the OP.

Can I please ask you guys to hold off on giving approval until this thread is finished, because it will change the scope of OP's arguments, and it would be a waste to redo this all over again for the third time, after getting further clarification.

 

[Hasty12345]

Can I please ask you guys to hold off on giving approval until this thread is finished, because it will change the scope of OP's arguments, and it would be a waste to redo this all over again for the third time, after getting further clarification.

I don’t think it’s fair to put this thread on hold for a thread that’s unlikely to have any tangible effect on the standards.