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Grappler Baki General Discussion

Kerr5 said:
Forget it i just calculated Baki blitzing Musashi and is actually Hypersonic+ but since Baki is faster than anyone except Yujiro it doesn't affect the scaling that much.
Click to expand...
Kerr5 said:
I'm working in the scaling chain for speed and it seems like 90% of the verse will be between Mach 0.5 and 1.1 while the other 1% will be Hypersonic and only 3 characters will be Hypersonic+
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This kinda creates a problem
Musashi is comparable to Demon Back Yujiro in speed yet according to this Baki is faster than both

My suggestion is maybe to only put Hypersonic+only with Baki's cockroach dash

Also I really don't agree with any of the characters other than the absolute top tiers scaling to the Supersonic+ value

The verse treats being supersonic as something that can only be achieved by the Mach Punch or by God tier characters (Such as Baki, Yujiro, Pickle and Musashi)
I'm sure you can argue a point for Post-SoO characters but for anyone before that I believe supersonic and Transonic to be to much.

One more thing as well, what do we do about Orochi? We just gonna say he got weaker in speed as well and call it a day? Cause he would scale to Yujiro's early Supersonic value
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
My suggestion is maybe to only put Hypersonic+only with Baki's cockroach dash
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Cockroach Tackle doesn't increase speed, it just makes you go max speed from the beginning, like if a human gets launched at 20k/h

Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
This kinda creates a problem
Musashi is comparable to Demon Back Yujiro in speed yet according to this Baki is faster than both
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He isn't, Musashi can read characters movements 0.5 second before they happen using the 0.5 technique, he just uses that to keep up with characters which are faster than him.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Also I really don't agree with any of the characters other than the absolute top tiers scaling to the Supersonic+ value
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They don't, characters like Pickle are able to dodge bullets and most characters are comparable to him, Retsu surpassed Mach Punch's speed and things like Sikorsky dodging bullets and Doyle moving faster than another one which reach up to 240m/s doesn't really have any argument to counter it except headcannon based on an ambiguous interpretation.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
One more thing as well, what do we do about Orochi? We just gonna say he got weaker in speed as well and call it a day? Cause he would scale to Yujiro's early Supersonic value
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Debut Yujiro is slower than Maximum Tournament Yujiro, he just scales from Jack which scales from Baki which upscales from Retsu being over Mach 1
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
The verse treats being supersonic as something that can only be achieved by the Mach Punch or by God tier characters (Such as Baki, Yujiro, Pickle and Musashi)
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Not really, just as i said Retsu surpassed Mach Punch (and even called it a useless technique in Son of Ogre) and characters have multiple times dodged bullets.
Sonic Booms are just meant to look cool, there's one point where Kaku casually moves at Supersonic speeds (stated) and literally nothing happens, also Pickle is not a God Tier in terms of speed, even Oliva is faster by sheer scaling.
 
Kerr5 said:
He isn't, Musashi can read characters movements 0.5 second before they happen using the 0.5 technique, he just uses that to keep up with characters which are faster than him.
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Multiple other characters can do this it's not unique to him
Nowhere is it stated that that's the reason he can keep up with God tiers, this is pure headcanon
Kerr5 said:
They don't, characters like Pickle are able to dodge bullets and most characters are comparable to him, Retsu surpassed Mach Punch's speed and things like Sikorsky dodging bullets and Doyle moving faster than another one which reach up to 240m/s doesn't really have any argument to counter it except headcannon based on an ambiguous interpretation.
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Yeah all valid reasons for Subsonic+
Retsu "Surpassing" the Mach punch needs scan proof and I bet it's referring to technical skill and not speed because I believe they were referring to Hitless Blow in this context, which does indeed surpass Mach punch.
Kerr5 said:
Debut Yujiro is slower than Maximum Tournament Yujiro, he just scales from Jack which scales from Baki which upscales from Retsu being over Mach 1
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The Supersonic feat comes from Child Baki Arc Yujiro so yes it does scale to Orochi as the fight takes place 4 years after that
Kerr5 said:
Not really, just as i said Retsu surpassed Mach Punch (and even called it a useless technique in Son of Ogre) and characters have multiple times dodged bullets.
Click to expand...
Like I said Retsu has access to the Hitless Blow which is a superior Technique (Hence him calling the Mach Punch Useless)
Even in the Pickle arc characters (Including Retsu) treat Supersonic speeds as impressive

Bullet dodging does not require supersonic speed

Kerr5 said:
Sonic Booms are just meant to look cool, there's one point where Kaku casually moves at Supersonic speeds (stated) and literally nothing happens,
Click to expand...
Scans?
I believe you are referring to Hitless Blow which is him demonstrating a technique that allows him to move at such speeds, as in not what he is normally capable of
Kerr5 said:
also Pickle is not a God Tier in terms of speed, even Oliva is faster by sheer scaling.
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I recall him doging a Mach Punch from close range as well as impressing the entire cast with his speed and power

However if that's the case then he would be brought down to subsonic+
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Like I said Retsu has access to the Hitless Blow which is a superior Technique
Click to expand...
He said he never used such technique in combat, actually when you use hitless blow is stated that you create a Sonic Boom, Retsu using the Hitless blow is just headcannon.

He surpassed Mach Punch in his fight with Katsumi in the Maximum Tournament, actually this feat is so impressive that got calculated as Hypersonic.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Nowhere is it stated that that's the reason he can keep up with God tiers, this is pure headcanon
Click to expand...
Its stated in both of his fights against Baki that's the only reason why he can keep up with him.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
Even in the Pickle arc characters (Including Retsu) treat Supersonic speeds as impressive
Click to expand...
Transonic and very low end Supersonic characters treating speeds far superior to Mach 1.1 as impressive doesn't make them Subsonic, Supersonic speed is not necessary Mach 1.1 it can refer to anything between Mach 1.2 and 2.5
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
I recall him doging a Mach Punch from close range
Click to expand...
What.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
However if that's the case then he would be brought down to subsonic+
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That's not how scaling works, Pickle is so fast that he moved more than a bullet before said bullet reach him, i still need to calculate this but is in no way Subsonic.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
I believe you are referring to Hitless Blow which is him demonstrating a technique that allows him to move at such speeds, as in not what he is normally capable of
Click to expand...
No, when you use hitless blow you create a Sonic Boom, he was just showing how you can use your joints to increase your speed by imagining You have multiple of them.
He probably uses this technique to fight and that would be the reason why he can keep up with Yujiro, i remember you that what he's normally capable of is 10-C and Below Human speeds and the only reason why he's powerful is because of sheer technique.

Also Retsu keep up with Musashi and then Katsumi moved as fast as Retsu and Musashi has reasons to be considered an Hypersonic character.
Everybody being Subsonic/+ except for a few characters is just a bias you have, the only truly massive difference here is between Baki, Yujiro, and everybody else, the rest of the characters are in a very similar level un terms of speed.
 
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For some reason there are someone who has the Great Anatomy or Grappler Side guides? Recently i have watched some scans and it has several things that are important for scaling.
 
Hey the baki anime has dropped the part up to Yujiro vs Baki. Also seems like a new baki series is happening called baki raihen. Also also regarding retsu's isekai should it be considered canon and if yes should Retsu's feats scale to those above him? I personally think yes.
 
Hello all. I come to you with a long-ass post as someone who was skeptical of Yujiro's Class M lifting strength tiering.

Was shocked with the lack of lifting strength feats on the verse page: Only Sukune II crushing coal into a diamond is listed. I was watching through the netflix adaptation again and wondered the force Yujiro would have to be outputting to swim in a 20 km/h pool for an hour. Was weird calculating swimming for LS, but as stated in the blog and for the formula: 'A human being’s propelling efficiency is just 50%. This means that half of the exertion involved in swimming drives a person forward and the other half….. is wasted on pushing water behind them!' The result was Class 5.

In the conclusion, I talk about how Yujiro (and Baki) very likely outscale Sukune II in every other stat, but emphasized that lifting strength required different training: A difference between the fast-twitch fiber muscles used for striking feats, and slow-twitch fiber muscles for lifting/gripping related feats. That led me to Biscuit Oliva, someone with a lot of lifting feats in the series. First was pretty messy and also only got Class 5, but in doing that, I realized how there are occasionally really important differences in the manga compared to the anime while doing that blog.

So I went back to the Yujiro swimming in the manga instead of anime. It was originally somewhere from 35.4056 km/h and 41.8429 km/h speeds of water, and he did it for two hours. Latter just a stamina thing (this was casual for him in both, him coming out barely even needing to catch his breath), but this made it low end Class 10, and high end Class 25. So I felt optimistic.
CuddleFox said:
Once the fight between Oliva and Sukune is finished, we might have some rescaling to do, I think. And a few things to put down about aiki.

If Oliva is actually stronger than Sukune or even just comparable (in pure strength, I mean), there will be no doubt that Oliva could have surpassed the aiki if he had forced it like Kyogei did.
Or Oliva has a new key, but that seems a bit unlikely.
Click to expand...
Now just today, I was looking for Oliva feats, and was reminded watching the new anime that he twisted a steel door off it's hinges merely by turning the handle. Using only manga scans, a ton of research torsion, and lots of math later, I find that Olivia actually does have a Class M feat (if the maths and methods I used are correct).

Far below Sukune II - 84,375,832 kg vs 5,201,651.7817 kg max - but still, I'm feeling optimistic for this verse.

Hope to support it with more lifting feats, if not other stat stuffs.
 
StretchSebe said:
Hello all. I come to you with a long-ass post as someone who was skeptical of Yujiro's Class M lifting strength tiering.

Was shocked with the lack of lifting strength feats on the verse page: Only Sukune II crushing coal into a diamond is listed. I was watching through the netflix adaptation again and wondered the force Yujiro would have to be outputting to swim in a 20 km/h pool for an hour. Was weird calculating swimming for LS, but as stated in the blog and for the formula: 'A human being’s propelling efficiency is just 50%. This means that half of the exertion involved in swimming drives a person forward and the other half….. is wasted on pushing water behind them!' The result was Class 5.

In the conclusion, I talk about how Yujiro (and Baki) very likely outscale Sukune II in every other stat, but emphasized that lifting strength required different training: A difference between the fast-twitch fiber muscles used for striking feats, and slow-twitch fiber muscles for lifting/gripping related feats. That led me to Biscuit Oliva, someone with a lot of lifting feats in the series. First was pretty messy and also only got Class 5, but in doing that, I realized how there are occasionally really important differences in the manga compared to the anime while doing that blog.

So I went back to the Yujiro swimming in the manga instead of anime. It was originally somewhere from 35.4056 km/h and 41.8429 km/h speeds of water, and he did it for two hours. Latter just a stamina thing (this was casual for him in both, him coming out barely even needing to catch his breath), but this made it low end Class 10, and high end Class 25. So I felt optimistic.

Now just today, I was looking for Oliva feats, and was reminded watching the new anime that he twisted a steel door off it's hinges merely by turning the handle. Using only manga scans, a ton of research torsion, and lots of math later, I find that Olivia actually does have a Class M feat (if the maths and methods I used are correct).

Far below Sukune II - 84,375,832 kg vs 5,201,651.7817 kg max - but still, I'm feeling optimistic for this verse.

Hope to support it with more lifting feats, if not other stat stuffs.
Click to expand...
Yeah Unironically Baki has a ton of Class K to Class M feats

Baki crushes a rock is guaranteed Class K
 
StretchSebe said:
We'll work on improving their stats. Going to run Yujiro's swimming and Oliva's doorsion by the calculation evaluation thread soon.
Click to expand...
Bro we were working on speed in this thread
vsbattles.com

Musashi Miyamoto speed revision

— Introduction Minor update for Musashi Miyamoto and some other fighters from Baki —Speed At this feat, Musashi cutz several bullets while swinging his katana, a feat that was calculated here and is rated supersonic+ - hypersonic+ only applies to the fastest characters in the verse —The...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Supersonic+ is what were looking at
 
There was something about using the joints in Katsumi's wrist to calculate the maximum speed of hitless blow since he needed a certain amount to surpass sound but that'd only scale to hitless blow
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
There was something about using the joints in Katsumi's wrist to calculate the maximum speed of hitless blow since he needed a certain amount to surpass sound but that'd only scale to hitless blow
Click to expand...
Yeah I was the one proposing that but even if you were to say yujiro and baki can learn it that speed seems to just be the technigue itself. Don't know if it scales with speed and what not. What is needed is a general speed feat either a punch or sth.
 
It would just be an outlier though. It would explain Yujiro dodging lighting from the top of the page though. But yeah...probably outlier if correct.



Here is the anime scene of the feat. From this scene the degree is different.
 
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Serlock_Holmes said:
I mean the feat is basically the same. Just the degree changes which also makes sense with the manga portrayal. No idea why the stick survived but eh that's fiction for you. Also why are we taking solid explosives?
Click to expand...
The feat stays the same, but it's a difference between Class 5 and potentially Class 25 LS. I'd say that's significant enough.

If Baki-Dou had taught us anything though, it's that weapons are OP. Jokkes aside, the blog mentions Retsu Kaioh moving the stick (and such is shown in the anime scene). I don't see the problem with solid explosives either given detonated explosives are what Doyle uses, right?
 
StretchSebe said:
The feat stays the same, but it's a difference between Class 5 and potentially Class 25 LS. I'd say that's significant enough.

If Baki-Dou had taught us anything though, it's that weapons are OP. Jokkes aside, the blog mentions Retsu Kaioh moving the stick (and such is shown in the anime scene). I don't see the problem with solid explosives either given detonated explosives are what Doyle uses, right?
Click to expand...

Couldn't it be an organic dust mixture? Also the rod in the anime is moving how many degrees?
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
Couldn't it be an organic dust mixture? Also the rod in the anime is moving how many degrees?
Click to expand...
Dolyle explicitly stored detonated explosives in his chest in bomb form. Also again, they seem to be going off the manga for the information on the stick, not the anime.

At any rate, I think these are starting to become questions you should run by the guy who actually did the calculation, as I only meant to relay the information from that calculation to this thread.
 
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