Guts vs Maul - Rematch

[Phsccarvalho]

REVANGENCE

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This match is a rematch of that match.

I'm remaking it because Darth Maul as well as the Jedi/Sith from Star Wars have received a large amount of updates.

Rules: Speed equalized, SBA

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Characters	Votes
Guts (Key: Black Swordsman)	(10) @Keeweed, @TegamiBachi25, @Doggo, @Catbowtie, @DaReaperMan, @azontr, @LegendariumOfLies, @Naito-desu, @Epiccheev, @Random-Helper323
Darth Maul (Key: Rebels Era)	(7) @Arkansalter2, @Pyro9278, @Robo432343, @Arkenis, @Sir_Marvulous, @Dr._whiteee, @Harith0cell

 

[Arkansalter2]

Something something force, soemthing something plasma heat, something something TK ragdolls, makes sense.
Maul should take this pretty handily due to these yeah?
Maul mid diff.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Something something force, soemthing something plasma heat, something something TK ragdolls, makes sense.
Maul should take this pretty handily due to these yeah?
Maul mid diff.

Word.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Something something force, soemthing something plasma heat, something something TK ragdolls, makes sense.
Maul should take this pretty handily due to these yeah?
Maul mid diff.

I mean, Guts resists the heat of the plasma based on the lightning thing, and he has direct damage to the soul, although I looked at the other topic that is not instakill.

Anyway, it seems to me that Maul is more skilled in combat and has the help of the force (force sense, perception, precognition, telepathy, etc.), and anything he does with the Force will affect Guts (TK, Force Choke, Force Stasis, etc.).

In addition, Guts has more range with his melee weapon (dragon slayer has several meters) and has that passive luck (but I don't think it would help with the Force?). In addition, he has a firearm (but I think that can be easily stopped by Maul)

 

[Doggo]

Not sure about Maul outskilling, when Guts took down 100 men single-handedly while injured, or fought Zodd, who has been fighting for centuries. Gut's seems to have a better knack for strategy than Maul, too.

Yeah, Maul seems to have the hax advantage. But Gut's berserker armor is a beast to deal with, since Maul will have a hard time killing him, especially when the armor can withstand lightning. Maul also never and probably wont use force statsis (I honestly think it's a rare ability, since only Cal,Kylo, and Vader have ever used it in canon)

 

[Doggo]

Maul also does not spam TK and is primarily a duelist

 

[Keeweed]

I’m really annoyed people keep saying force gg with maul. He’s 100% a sword fighter. The only people who spam force die, from what I remember, are a miffed Vader and Sidous. Everyone else will sword fight you straight to their own deaths.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Not sure about Maul outskilling, when Guts took down 100 men single-handedly while injured, or fought Zodd, who has been fighting for centuries. Gut's seems to have a better knack for strategy than Maul, too.

Yeah, Maul seems to have the hax advantage. But Gut's berserker armor is a beast to deal with, since Maul will have a hard time killing him, especially when the armor can withstand lightning. Maul also never and probably wont use force statsis (I honestly think it's a rare ability, since only Cal,Kylo, and Vader have ever used it in canon)

Maul is vastly superior to young men who are not even Padawans and who have little use of the Force, but can block blasters from inches away with their vision obscured and all their senses blocked with just their instinctive reaction. Maul can also fight more than one Jedi at the same time (i.e. dealing with that instinctive reaction, precognition, perception etc.). With the equalized speed and perception thing, Maul will see Guts in slow motion.

Force Stasis was also used by Rey, Erza, Yoda and that Acolyte child. That's why it became standard for Jedis and so on. Furthermore, if Maul uses Tk/Force Choke the match is over (Class K vs Class M), and through the dark side he can cause direct mental damage to Guts.

Maul also does not spam TK and is primarily a duelist

It's a matter of him facing Jedi and the like, these guys can block TK or resist other hax through Mind Probe training. But even so, Maul often uses the Force in battle, including sometimes using Force Choke against opponents who get too close.

I’m really annoyed people keep saying force gg with maul. He’s 100% a sword fighter. The only people who spam force die, from what I remember, are a miffed Vader and Sidous. Everyone else will sword fight you straight to their own deaths.

Isn't that true? The thing is, he's up against Jedis who can block Force attacks. But he uses it. He literally used Force push to push Obi Wan into the hole. And in the video I sent him, he used Force Choke instantly when he got close to the enemy at 5:36 and 5:52. Against people who don't use the Force and can't defend themselves from it, he uses it with ease.

 

[Keeweed]

Can lightsabers stab something if they have heat resist? Because if not Maul literally can’t do anything here with the sword, Gut’s heat resistance is cartoonishly higher.
And he never goes for the force ever (that video being like 1 out of 1000 of what he usually does and 9/10 being generic force push), so seems like a stomp.

Jedi should be able to block force attacks but they can’t and we are directly shown that’s not why Jedi and Sith don’t use force attacks. In the acolyte Jedi and sith use force attacks on each other to full effectiveness like a dozen times. Crappy show but still canon and show everyone are just dummies for not doing it all the time.
Like the bad guy just disabled a Jedi master who was actively mid fighting him and just slowly dragged him into his sword with no issue once so ever. Despite the Jedi masters fighting on par with the guy so it’s not like he’s just better.
Your own video repeatedly shows Jedi not stopping Maul’s force powers at all, yet he only does like a push then full stops doing it for the entire rest of the fight.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Can lightsabers stab something if they have heat resist? Because if not Maul literally can’t do anything here with the sword, Gut’s heat resistance is cartoonishly higher.
And he never goes for the force ever (that video being like 1 out of 1000 of what he usually does and 9/10 being generic force push), so seems like a stomp.

Jedi should be able to block force attacks but they can’t and we are directly shown that’s not why Jedi and Sith don’t use force attacks. In the acolyte Jedi and sith use force attacks on each other to full effectiveness like a dozen times. Crappy show but still canon and show everyone are just dummies for not doing it all the time.
Like the bad guy just disabled a Jedi master who was actively mid fighting him and just slowly dragged him into his sword with no issue once so ever. Despite the Jedi masters fighting on par with the guy so it’s not like he’s just better.
Your own video repeatedly shows Jedi not stopping Maul’s force powers at all, yet he only does like a push then full stops doing it for the entire rest of the fight.

-Doesn't use the Force

Literally uses the Force not only in his battle in Episode 1 but in other moments, including using Force Choke against opponents who get too close.

Maul has a greater combat ability that is driven by the Force, plus he will see Guts in slow motion.

Jedi can block Force attacks, haven't you seen Episode 3? Anakin and Obiwan get into a TK standoff because one was blocking the other.

Consistency/frequency is not a good counterargument because it depends on the show, plus the show can just completely ignore established concepts because of the script. Like in Acolyte itself, the Jedi get disoriented because of the smoke, even though one of the first Jedi trainings is to fight without relying on vision.

 

[Doggo]

Maul doesn't even use TK here, I doubt he will do that to Guts....until I saw the video you sent. Honestly, SW suffers from using the force in inconsistent ways.

Can I see the video for Ezra, Kanan, and the kid using TK?

Maul is vastly superior to young men who are not even Padawans and who have little use of the Force, but can block blasters from inches away with their vision obscured and all their senses blocked with just their instinctive reaction. Maul can also fight more than one Jedi at the same time (i.e. dealing with that instinctive reaction, precognition, perception etc.). With the equalized speed and perception thing, Maul will see Guts in slow motion.

Force Stasis was also used by Rey, Erza, Yoda and that Acolyte child. That's why it became standard for Jedis and so on. Furthermore, if Maul uses Tk/Force Choke the match is over (Class K vs Class M), and through the dark side he can cause direct mental damage to Guts.


It's a matter of him facing Jedi and the like, these guys can block TK or resist other hax through Mind Probe training. But even so, Maul often uses the Force in battle, including sometimes using Force Choke against opponents who get too close.



Isn't that true? The thing is, he's up against Jedis who can block Force attacks. But he uses it. He literally used Force push to push Obi Wan into the hole. And in the video I sent him, he used Force Choke instantly when he got close to the enemy at 5:36 and 5:52. Against people who don't use the Force and can't defend themselves from it, he uses it with ease.

 

[Keeweed]

“Jedi get disoriented because of the smoke, even though one of the first Jedi trainings is to fight without relying on vision.”

I do find it funny even that show has that be the training of the students yet used smoke as the distraction twice. But that’s still one of the many crap ton of anti feats they have towards their precognition being good.

That obi wan example of a force block is a pretty poor once since he did it nearly by accident and sheer happenstance.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Maul doesn't even use TK here, I doubt he will do that to Guts....until I saw the video you sent. Honestly, SW suffers from using the force in inconsistent ways.

Can I see the video for Ezra, Kanan, and the kid using TK?

Force Stasis is not based on TK, it is slowing something down or freezing it. The scans are on the force page. But I agree that Force Stasis might be one of the last things he tries.

The consistency of TK is simply bad writing if you want to call it that. SW sometimes forgets basic concepts to follow the narrative. Like, let's say that Luke is a Class 5 weakling or something because in episode 6 he can't handle that big creature without a lightsaber? When at that time he could only defeat it with TK

 

[Keeweed]

Normally I am fine with looking past some low dumb showings, but with Star Wars the inconsistencies are every other second. Whether the force can fully shield your body or needs to be an active barrier or not, the precognition, the ability to push and pull people. It’s all over the shop and has flip flopped easily over 1000 times unironically. So I always go for the lowest for these abilities (unless it vader or sidous who non stop spam the good abilities), which are really bad unfortunately.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

“Jedi get disoriented because of the smoke, even though one of the first Jedi trainings is to fight without relying on vision.”

I do find it funny even that show has that be the training of the students yet used smoke as the distraction twice. But that’s still one of the many crap ton of anti feats they have towards their precognition being good.

That obi wan example of a force block is a pretty poor once since he did it nearly by accident and sheer happenstance.

I told you, bad writing. SW wants several abilities for Jedi but doesn't want them to use them often.

If you want, I can use Fallen Order or Jedi survivor and the Jedi/Sith can block Cal's TK. Vader even blocks almost all TKs from what I remember.

 

[Keeweed]

Vader was actively on his guard and one of the few people who is consistently shown spamming force powers. The rest are for game purposes, which I mean isn’t a gameplay mechanic, but we know exactly why the creators constantly have them block the force abilities (game balance) versus 9 out of 10 shows not having them even try.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Vader was actively on his guard and one of the few people who is consistently shown spamming force powers. The rest are for game purposes, which I mean isn’t a gameplay mechanic, but we know exactly why the creators constantly have them block the force abilities (game balance) versus 9 out of 10 shows not having them even try.

The game shows us that they are perfectly capable of blocking TK when they are on guard/not distracted, I have already shown and proven this not only in the game but in episode 3.

Speaking of consistency again, it is because the show and series need to balance this, for what they want to tell they cannot use everything a Jedi has at all times by making bad writing like in Acolyte with the Jedi getting disoriented by smoke, Luke from episode 6 not being able to deal with a large creature despite having TK for that, simply forgetting about precognition despite it still being referenced today or the inconsistency in blocking the Jedi's blasters that sometimes block several blasters and sometimes can't deal with some (Like Cal's master, it was just a few shots, the guy could have used a barrier, force push, etc. but you know, for the script it was necessary for him to die)

In the games, there is more freedom for this, and we can see more of the Jedi's capabilities Jedi through Cal or enemies.

 

[Keeweed]

I’ve consistently heard for inconsistency like this we use the low ends, like comics Spider-Man literally just got downgraded to spider sense being pretty worthless over this very same issue. Plus if we go through every example even the times they use the ability there are a crap ton of times they are still inconsistent, happenstance, or just plain mediocre. Like obi wan blocked by complete chance and not even with a block but because he tried the same attack. The many times Jedi and Sith barely go for a push and never capitalize on it, the many many times in the clone wars Jedi get shot, electricuted (by like bounty hunter weapons), or stabbed despite having all the time in the world to avoid it even without precog.

 

[Keeweed]

It sucks when shows don’t use an ability even halfway decently, but it happened, and it happened easily thousands of times at that.

 

[Keeweed]

Remember that episode of the clone wars a Jedi master straight up got mauled by a lion like creature even with Asoka helping him. That was a big lol. Precognition and a forcefield would have really helped there.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Remember that episode of the clone wars a Jedi master straight up got mauled by a lion like creature even with Asoka helping him. That was a big lol. Precognition and a forcefield would have really helped there.

That's why I don't think this should be taken seriously. The franchise forgets/ignores the most basic abilities of the Jedi, even the ones that are really important like TK.

If we were to take it really seriously, the Jedi/Sith either have Alzheimer's or are the most incompetent beings in the universe.

I remembered another moment of Force blockage. Acolyte episode 3? I remember there being a training session between the sisters where one pushes the other with the Force and the other has to protect herself using TK as well.

 

[Keeweed]

I remember that failed, but also it’s an active thing they need to go for with their hands so another force user should still be able to push around Jedi who aren’t fully on guard. Which does happen meaning it should be used way more but isn’t.
That’s what I meant with the lion example. Spider-Man just got downgraded for his inconsistencies. I’m pretty sure their bad showing heavily out way every good showing pretty easily by this point. With Vader being the only consistently good force wielder since he loves to aura farm it.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Maul doesn't even use TK here, I doubt he will do that to Guts....until I saw the video you sent. Honestly, SW suffers from using the force in inconsistent ways.

Actually, that moment was because Maul promised a fair duel to Vizsla from Mandalorian culture. If he wanted to, he could TK slam Pre Vizsla and call it a day, but he wanted to win the duel fair.

TCW is honestly overrated tbf and Filoni isn't a good writer as many claim he is. It's also bad writing

 

[TegamiBachi25]

I remember that failed, but also it’s an active thing they need to go for with their hands so another force user should still be able to push around Jedi who aren’t fully on guard. Which does happen meaning it should be used way more but isn’t.
That’s what I meant with the lion example. Spider-Man just got downgraded for his inconsistencies. I’m pretty sure their bad showing heavily out way every good showing pretty easily by this point. With Vader being the only consistently good force wielder since he loves to aura farm it.

You could claim that for any other franchise with subpar writing later on in a long running franchise. I don't think it should be taken seriously.

Maul isn't even a shitty duelist either, considering he went up against kenobi, who was considered on par with Anakin, and Anakin was consistently stated to be the strongest jedi.

Vader also got inconsistencies as well. He literally solos a octopus monster, another kaiju like monster that can destroy an entire city, and then get his suit hacked into oblivion and made a fool out of by Aphra in one of the canon comics

 

[Keeweed]

His suit getting hacked won’t be an anti feat against killing giant monsters though. Also yeah I don’t like Filoni but he’s been the lead creative of Star Wars for like two decades now.

 

[Keeweed]

He’s the one that gets to decide how the force works since his works are easily around 85% of the canon, and in that it’s garbage.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

He’s the one that gets to decide how the force works since his works are 85% of the canon, it’s garbage.

If Maul has the force, he will use it. There's nothing stopping him. The only time he hasn't used the force was against Vizsla and that was a promise to adhere to Mandalorian tradition and culture to make his claim to the leadership position authentic. If he did use TK, it showed that Maul was just a cheater who couldn't even fight Pre Vizsla in a fair fight.

He has no reason to not TK spam against Guts if his dueling skills aren't cutting it. Filoni isn't here going into this forum and claiming how the force should and shouldn't work in an actual debate battle.

 

[Keeweed]

Maul has used the force so many times just to push someone over once and never again. Or just not gone for it at all dozens of times. He definitely has a massive amount of anti feats to precog, obi wan got past him with a lightsaber stance change or a jump. If he tries to clash with guts he instantly dies as he’s hit by a sword wielded by a guy with more ap meanwhile the heat resistance means maul’s sword doesn’t even exist to Guts and he’ll swing right through it. So if Maul does anything but spam tk till Guts dies he loses and we know he’s a sword fighter first and foremost so he goes for the swing and dies. Like what happened to him twice.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I remember that failed, but also it’s an active thing they need to go for with their hands so another force user should still be able to push around Jedi who aren’t fully on guard. Which does happen meaning it should be used way more but isn’t.

But didn't I say the opposite? I said that TK can be blocked with TK if the guy isn't distracted. And I showed that this happens several times in the franchise.

It's not used as often as it should be because, you know, bad writing. Like, we're talking about a franchise that forgets the most basic, iconic and important combat skills and force powers to favor the script. Like the Acolyte's shit and the smoke.

It's not a matter of the characters' personality or character, it's just a shitty script. Or do you genuinely think that some of these characters, by character/personality, would rather die than use force powers to save themselves?

Do you think that, by character/personality, Luke would rather have the possibility of dying than using a simple TK on the Rancor, or do you think that Cal's master would rather have the possibility of dying than using a simple barrier or force push on the clones?

Maul has used the force so many times just to push someone over once and never again. Or just not gone for it at all dozens of times. He definitely has a massive amount of anti feats to precog, obi wan got past him with a lightsaber stance change or a jump. If he tries to clash with guts he instantly dies as he’s hit by a sword wielded by a guy with more ap meanwhile the heat resistance means maul’s sword doesn’t even exist to Guts and he’ll swing right through it. So if Maul does anything but spam tk till Guts dies he loses and we know he’s a sword fighter first and foremost so he goes for the swing and dies. Like what happened to him twice.

What we have is that he used and uses the Force in combat, the consistency of this depends on the franchise, which we know is crap at demonstrating this.

Maul won't die with a single attack, both are 8-A, Guts' AP is 119t, so even if Maul were 100t that wouldn't be enough for a One Shot.

Maul, in addition to all his combat skills, has Force sense, telepathy, precognition, instinctive reaction, perception to see everything in slow motion, increased reflexes due to being force-sensitive, etc. that help him in combat.

If Maul sees that the lightsaber can't cause enough damage, he will certainly resort to the Force, and from then on any Force Power is basically a victory for Maul.

 

[Keeweed]

If a 10-B person sliced across your gut would you die? The answer is yes, Guts has a sword, the exact ap isn’t the issue here

All those things you listed didn’t help him all the time, to the point he died twice.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

If a 10-B person sliced across your gut would you die? The answer is yes, Guts has a sword, the exact ap isn’t the issue here

If I have a knife and I clash knife with knife with this guy, he won't cut me. Besides, seriously, you're talking about cutting a guy who survived being cut in half, that's the least thing he'd care about.

Besides, 8-A durability with force amplification that can be done right at the beginning.

All those things you listed didn’t help him all the time, to the point he died twice.

All of these powers give Maul an advantage when it comes to attacking Guts.

Besides, you know, seeing Guts literally in slow motion?

 

[Keeweed]

Maul can’t clash here, his weapon isn’t physical.

 

[Keeweed]

Again the entire point of the previous conversation is to say those precognitive powers are beyond inconsistent. To the point they have been hit all the time by even normal guys much less someone as skilled and to the kill as Guts.
Also my point shielding with the force is beyond inconsistent too.

 

[Keeweed]

This is rebels Maul, he lacks the rage to survive again. Plus soul damage.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Maul can’t clash here, his weapon isn’t physical.

Yes, they can. Otherwise, lightsabers wouldn't even be able to clash with themselves.

Also:

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Again the entire point of the previous conversation is to say those precognitive powers are beyond inconsistent. To the point they have been hit all the time by even normal guys much less someone as skilled and to the kill as Guts.
Also my point shielding with the force is beyond inconsistent too.

Inconsistency is not a real argument when the series is so shitty in writing that it ignores basic powers in the script. Making characters die rather than having them use simple force powers or ignoring them completely in the same series that introduces them (Acolyte)

This is rebels Maul, he lacks the rage to survive again. Plus soul damage.

From what I know, the fury thing is from comics legends. Besides, his lower body is mechanical, so he doesn't need to worry about it too much.

Does Guts' soul damage cause instakill on beings that don't resist it? If not, it doesn't matter much to my argument.

 

[Keeweed]

I did forget for a second some weapons do clash, but those are specifically designed to clash so the user doesn’t die. Like the magic weapons the sisters have. When they lose their magic the light sabers just go through them like normal plasma. Some of the other weapons are stated to absorb the strike, but I don’t know if those red guy’s weapon’s are the same material.
Light sabers clash because they are both plasma, when they have hit other regular weapons and metals they have gone through them like normal plasma before. Granted that red guy’s weapon probably just introduced another inconsistency so fair enough.

It should if it chops Maul’s soul in half lol. Guts was dying from a far lesser stab.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

But didn't I say the opposite? I said that TK can be blocked with TK if the guy isn't distracted. And I showed that this happens several times in the franchise.

It's not used as often as it should be because, you know, bad writing. Like, we're talking about a franchise that forgets the most basic, iconic and important combat skills and force powers to favor the script. Like the Acolyte's shit and the smoke.

It's not a matter of the characters' personality or character, it's just a shitty script. Or do you genuinely think that some of these characters, by character/personality, would rather die than use force powers to save themselves?

Do you think that, by character/personality, Luke would rather have the possibility of dying than using a simple TK on the Rancor, or do you think that Cal's master would rather have the possibility of dying than using a simple barrier or force push on the clones?


What we have is that he used and uses the Force in combat, the consistency of this depends on the franchise, which we know is crap at demonstrating this.

Maul won't die with a single attack, both are 8-A, Guts' AP is 119t, so even if Maul were 100t that wouldn't be enough for a One Shot.

Maul, in addition to all his combat skills, has Force sense, telepathy, precognition, instinctive reaction, perception to see everything in slow motion, increased reflexes due to being force-sensitive, etc. that help him in combat.

If Maul sees that the lightsaber can't cause enough damage, he will certainly resort to the Force, and from then on any Force Power is basically a victory for Maul.

Honestly, I don't understand why this argument is so common. Naruto characters have substitution jutsu yet they also get tagged by every jutsu. Why can't they just escape everything with substitution or just use body flicker?

I'm also leaning towards Maul here. Star Wars and TCW's bad writing and inconsistencies isn't an excuse when Naruto never shown substitution on screen at all. Do we go and say Naruto can't use substitution since only Kakashi, Sakura, and a few others were using it? Filoni isn't also on here to say what force powers should and shouldn't be used. Why don't we just apply every other author statements, like Toriyama thinking SSJ isn't a 50x times boost since he thinks its an exaggeration?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I did forget for a second some weapons do clash, but those are specifically designed to clash so the user doesn’t die. Like the magic weapons the sisters have. When they lose their magic the light sabers just go through them like normal plasma. Some of the other weapons are stated to absorb the strike, but I don’t know if those red guy’s weapon’s are the same material.
Light sabers clash because they are both plasma, when they have hit other regular weapons and metals they have gone through them like normal plasma before.

Do you have any proof that the Knights of Ren's weapons are that special?

Furthermore, speaking of the heat of the lightsaber. It's not like the saber wouldn't cause any kind of damage.

Guts has resistance to fire/heat, especially fire/flames, which the lightsaber is superior to. Besides, their resistance to lightning makes little difference considering that lightsabers cut like butter against Jedis who survive force lightning (Besides, we don't give heat resistance because we resist lightning for some reason).

Since neither has calculations, the lightsaber is favored.

It should if it chops Maul’s soul in half lol. Guts was dying from a far lesser stab.

Guts has resistance to soul hax, so what's it like against guys who can't resist it?

Besides, his superior combat skills and powers would make Maul either deflect or block the blow with his own lightsaber.

 

[Keeweed]

The inconsistency here determine character and power use, that’s why it matters. Also that Naruto example is horrible, we specifically do have it that Naruto characters barely use their substitute power in this site. I can’t think of a single fight a Naruto character has ever won on this site because of it.