Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[JJSliderman]

Oh, I thought Immeasurable was moving across time with speed.

Idk anymore.

 

[Greenshifter]

He's arguing that the attacks have temporal AoE, so upon hitting Solaris they spread out through all of time essentially.

Moving across time with speed is only immeasurable speed in certain cases since it can be achieved with FTL speed as well.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Is temporal AoE an official power on the Wiki or is it related to type 2 acausality?

 

[Theuser789]

It's just range

 

[Peptocoptr27]

It's just range

Considering it allows you to hurt your opponent's past and future self by hitting them in the present, it's a little more busted than basic range

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, but still falls into the "range" category

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Yeah, but still falls into the "range" category

What does it look like on a profile? I don't think I've seen it before. Is it like:
"Range: Extended melee range with temporal area of effect"?

 

[Theuser789]

Idk, a lot of things said in this thread are a first for me

 

[MysticMania]

Hey, user. I'm sorry to ask, but, do you not believe in immeasurable anymore? You mentioned you wanted to offer a solution, which as type 2 acausality, if I'm correct.

 

[MysticMania]

It's perfectly fine if you don't of course, but, I personally hope we can reach a conclusion, rather than a compromise, if that makes sense?
Like, okay. It's not a 1-to-1 example, but let's say there was a Death Battle on Pizza VS Cheeseburgers. In this scenario, neither side can agree with the other, so, rather than coming to a conclusion, they decide to compromise, and pick grilled cheese as the victor. You can technically do that, but I'm sure there's some legitimate way to find the most solid verdict between the original two combatants, even if it's difficult, or takes more time.

 

[Theuser789]

Hey, user. I'm sorry to ask, but, do you not believe in immeasurable anymore? You mentioned you wanted to offer a solution, which as type 2 acausality, if I'm correct.

I do believe in it, yes, however I don't see the staff accepting it, the only conclusion I see is either removing canon abilities or offering an explanation that doesn't do that, I do agree with immesurable but I do not see the staff accepting it seeing how close minded they are that their interpretation can go above canon facts

 

[ElixirBlue]

but I do not see the staff accepting it seeing how close minded they are that their interpretation can go above canon facts

That’s concerning

 

[MysticMania]

I believe I see where you're coming from, in regards to canon facts, I think?

 

[Theuser789]

Idk, do you? Because I feel like limiting the fight to only three time periods is doing so

 

[MysticMania]

I feel Solaris being temporally omnipresent is, no disrespect towards anyone here, a non-question. In both the Japanese and English scripts of Sonic 06, Solaris existing all at once, throughout all of time, is what they very straightly imply. So yes, saying Solaris only exists within 3 points of time at once would be false. I also feel it's incorrect to say Solaris is simply sending his attacks to three specific points in time. There's no indication he's doing anything besides, simply attacking, so the attacks should also exist throughout all of time, all at once, just like Solaris. Then, you have Silver who can catch said attacks, Shadow who can hit Solaris with ranged attacks, and Sonic who can outspeed Solaris' reaction speed each time he attacks his core, in Phase 2.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bump?

 

[MysticMania]

Even if Type 2 acausality was a possibility ( which Generations assures it isn't ), we'd still have to explain how Sonic can outpace Solaris on more than one occasion, in a super predictable way, yet Solaris can never react in time.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I'm starting to think the hedgehogs would need immeasurable speed AND temporal AoE in order for the Solaris fight to make any sense... Perhaps one comes as a by-product of the other. When you think about it, temporal omnipresence, AoE, and immeasurable speed all serve similar perpouses in a fight. They each cover thier own end of the stat trinity. Temporal omnipresence is durabillity. Temporal AoE is AP, and immeasurable speed is... well, speed. This is a severe oversimplification, but it's the best way I can put it. They all overlap with each other as a result of Solaris' physiology. A physiology that was granted to him by the same chaos emeralds that grant Super forms. Let me explain. Solaris shouldn't even need to physically move to block Sonic's assault. He could just create a force field with a thought, and yet he still got blitzed. Since all of Solaris' moves are temporally omnipresent, the same should aply to the forcefield, right? The fact that the hedgehogs can hit Solaris even though a force field that should be temporally omnipresent and Solaris' rotations making him appear as some kind of wierd cone that would protect his core does heavily imply the they have temporal AoE, especially since Silver outright suggests to destroy the past, present and future all at once with Shadow comfirming that this could be possible with Sonic. The 06 guide comfirms that Sonic is the only one with the power to defeat Solaris, which comfirms that he's the one with the most affinity for chaos energy and that chaos emeralds vary in power depending on the user. This doesn't debunk Immeasurable speed however. It's not like they can hit Solaris anywhere anywhen to deal significant damage. Eggman said that defeating him here and now would do nothing, which is why they travel to different points in time to land thier hits even though they should still be able to hit him through multiple points in time at once. The fact that Sonic can blitz someone who exists in every point in time gives him, by definition, speed beyond linear time, which is litterally how immeasurable speed is officially described on the wiki. The current speed page says that an attack with temporal omnipresence doesn't necessarily move through space at infinite or immeasurable speeds, but the same speed page also says that an omnipresent attack can't be dodged with regular speed. So which is it? It says that it's situational, but in this case, everything points to Solaris being beyond linear time due to his physiology. The only thing that could debunk that is that the hedgehogs can keep up with him, but since when do we deny someone physiological traits or feats because someone who isn't explicitely shown to have the same traits can keep up with them? This just means that the Super forms have similar traits that counter Solaris's physiology. It's temporal omnipresence and immeasurable speed VS temporal area of effect and immeasurable speed. It's the only logical explanation that doesn't involve rift shenanigans (which we will get to later, one topic at a time) This is neither an outlier for Solaris or Super Sonic, and it's once again supported by the fact that both draw power from the chaos emeralds. We know that the hedgehogs can overlap the attacks' paths where they used to be. So they don't dodge it by moving somewhere else in space, because Solaris eventually fills up almost all of the space anyway with his lasers anyway. Silver can even catch his attacks, reflecting them back at Solaris. He can catch something that has been there since the beginning of time and just deny it. If Super Sonic's speed wasn't immeasurable, Solaris would see perceive him as warm statue, a meaningless being still bound by the flow of time.

I can't believe how much time and thought I put into this, but it turns out this downgrade thread should actually result in an upgrade. Immeasurable should stay and temporal AoE should get added to Sonic's profile. (I would personally ONLY add it to Sonic's profile while keeping it off of Shadow's and Silver's due to the fact that they only became that powerful by having thier Super forms bestowed upon them by Sonic, rather than gaining them naturally. I have more proof to support that Super Shadow and Silver aren't that strong on thier own, but this is a downgrade thread of its own, so for now, all 3 can have it)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That was a poorly organized paragraph structure. But none of that is legit Immeasurable speed; it's already been discussed multiple times it doesn't require Immeasurable speeds to fight someone with temporal omnipresence. And the barrier argument really isn't speed at all but AoE. "Solaris doesn't need to physically move to black Sonic's assault" that's not speed at all but just passively blocking it; which is not reactions at all.

But also, an attack that is omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even with Immeasurable speed; it's an AoE attack not a reaction speed feat. But it's only omnipresent on a temporal level and not a spatial level; which is admittedly weird, but an attack like that can still be dodged with someone with regular speed. Having "Temporal omnipresence" is a different ability altogether and doesn't mean anything speed wise. And the rest is still just redundancy, the core argument is still requiring an attack with temporal omnipresent AoE.

 

[Theuser789]

I honestly do think his comment was well organized, and just saying "no, this isn't x" without reasoning isn't enough, the doubt will still be there and thus there will come more people with the same questions leaving unsastified, so far this thread has not given a response, or at least one that doesn't involve removing canon abilities or shifting the burden of proof, I can accept staff members disagreeing because I am a regular member and I can't go against the standards, but this doubt will still be present at the mind of the readers

Nevertheless they would still get the temporal AoE upgrade no matter what, especially if immesurable gets downgraded

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Temporal AoE is an agreed upgrade yes

 

[Peptocoptr27]

That was a poorly organized paragraph structure.

I did the best with the time I had. I read and re-read my post multiple times to be absolutely sure people weren't confused by the wording in my big ass paragraph on a surprisingly complex and contreversial topic involving flying golden hedgehogs

But none of that is legit Immeasurable speed; it's already been discussed multiple times it doesn't require Immeasurable speeds to fight someone with temporal omnipresence. And the barrier argument really isn't speed at all but AoE. "Solaris doesn't need to physically move to black Sonic's assault" that's not speed at all but just passively blocking it; which is not reactions at all.

You say it's been discussed multiple times but I still haven't seen a good example of one these discussions, and the only argument I've seen that says temporal omnipresence accross all of time doesn't grant immeasurable speed is when you say said said something along the lines of "Just because someone has large size doesn't mean they get a speed ranking proportional to that size". I understand that this was only an example, and (hopefully) not the entire basis for your argument, but temporal omnipresence and large size aren't even similar at a conceptual level. A large character can have the reaction time of a regular human even if they're the size of a galaxy. It's even logical for them to be SLOWER than a regular human due to thier absurd mass being impossibly difficult to move by thier own muscles. That's actually the reason the most massive animals on Earth are underwater. So yeah, if anything, large size is a detriment to speed if we use real life logic, but temporal omnipresence is different. Solaris occupies about as much space as a building physically, but across time, he's everywhere, and that's a BIG difference. Let's say you're in front of Solaris, and in rapid successions, you constantly travel between random time periods in quick successions, (just like an immeasurable character would), while observing Solaris clapping his hands for example. His clapping motion would remain fluid and consistant to you, and he would be able to see you travelling through those time periods just as fluidly and consistantly, because he's practically one with time. The amount of space he occupies is irrelevant, because what matters is how temporal omnipresence affects his movements and perceptions. As for the barrier, that's exactly my point. It proves temporal AoE is an abillity that they have, and I'm glad we can agree on that much. Solaris shouldn't even need to move to block Sonic's attacks since his barriers should be covering him at all times, and his core should always be shielded by his back as Solaris can be seen rotating all throughout the fight. So far, it sounds like the Super forms' AoE is much more powerful than Solaris's omnipresence since they can essentially nullify it, but then you realize that Solaris can still block thier attacks with his barriers IF he manages to get it up in time. He can still till hit them with his attacks IF they don't react fast enough. Solaris' speed and reaction time is still something the hedgehogs need to invest effort into to overcome, which makes sense since immeasurable speed, temporal omnipresence, and AoE are mutually intertwined by Solaris's super-dimensional physiology. When you think about it, those 3 powers are just really similar in many ways. In fact, the reason that Super forms can hurt someone through every point in time is because time is but another direction they can travel through. It all just falls into place perfectly. This is even supported by them travelling to the past and future before the fight when standard FTL travel has never allowed them do that in the series without the aid of time travel panels. I also think it's wierd how dodging Solaris' attacks no longer counts as immeasurable because it's impossible even for immeasurable characters. If anything, doesn't that make it even more impressive? If Solaris was omnipresent across every point in time except for the earliest past and the latest future, the Super forms would be considered immeasurable for being able to dodge his attacks by moving from the beginning of time to the end of it with raw speed, but since Solaris exists in every point in time without exception, making the scaling more impressive, they're just MFTL+, which makes absolutely no sense.

Having "Temporal omnipresence" is a different ability altogether and doesn't mean anything speed wise. And the rest is still just redundancy, the core argument is still requiring an attack with temporal omnipresent AoE.

Can you tell me the difference between a character who can freely roam accross linear time (which is grounds for immeasurable speed), and a character who is fast enough to consistantly blitz someone who is already present across all of time? No matter which conclusion we draw, this should help clear things up.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to sound rude, DarkDragon and the Sword of Light dang I'm funny haha, but how would those not be immeasurable? You didn't say how, or anything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What I meant is instead of writing everything up in a single uber paragraph, why not make multiple paragraphs you would typically write if English class assignment. It's a lot easier to read and separate points bit by bit that way.

But anyway, Omnipresence is just such a commonly status in fiction, and it's super common for omnipresent foes to be defeated by protagonists with finite speeds. Furthermore, a character absolutely needs to be 100% active in order to be truly Immeasurable. They need reflexes that are faster than instantaneous to truly be Immeasurable. But omnipresence or more passive rather than active. And even characters who are omnipresent across space have thrown attacks that strike periods in time that can be avoided by those with finite speed. Being omnipresent across time being qualified as Immeasurable is no different then just making characters with spatial omnipresence infinite speed or that it takes 0 seconds for me to travel from point A to point B because someone has a length of line AB.

It's proof they can reach things passively or instantly by nature that they're already their, but it's no proof they actively had a brain that processed in negative 0 seconds. There's just too many negatives to prove, and asking why it's not Immeasurable speed is asking me to prove a negative. There needs to be spatial distance divided by time as moving 0 distance in 0 or negative time is inapplicable. There needs to be proof that distance was traveled, and being omnipresent usually creates even more burden of proof when it comes to Immeasurable speed. Because a character who is omnipresent would just attack a specific period in time and space; there's no travel or muzzle velocity; just an attack with an already there starting point.

Or even if the starting point wasn't at the character, the omnipresent character actually could be taking advantage as long as he needs to react. It's not automatic proof they react in negative 5 seconds, but Omnipresent characters technically already have an infinite amount of prep time before their fight; which even creates more burden of proof yet again for Immeasurable. And it may even take time for an attack launched in the future to travel back with FTL muzzle velocity. As Antonifer said, it attacks with temporal AoE don't always instantly explode at Immeasurable speeds but and need to land hits before the impact covers the temporal periods.

I might have more to add, but promised a friend I'd do online gaming with him.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to be rude by giving such a short response, or anything like that, but I still don't see how them dodging and outspeeding Solaris' reaction speed would be anything less than immeasurable. If you exist and look through all of time, all at once, how are you going to be caught off guard by the same 3 attacks over and over again?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

What I meant is instead of writing everything up in a single uber paragraph, why not make multiple paragraphs you would typically write if English class assignment. It's a lot easier to read and separate points bit by bit that way.

That's what we've been doing from the start and it's getting us nowhere. We're already at page 8 of this thread. We need to look at the bigger picture if we want to settle this for real.

But anyway, Omnipresence is just such a commonly status in fiction, and it's super common for omnipresent foes to be defeated by protagonists with finite speeds.

Just because many franchises screw up the logistics of temporal omnipresence doesn't mean we should throw every feat under the bus, especially those who have pretty solid backbone to them and pretty much no contradictions.

Furthermore, a character absolutely needs to be 100% active in order to be truly Immeasurable. They need reflexes that are faster than instantaneous to truly be Immeasurable. But omnipresence or more passive rather than active.

So is this the difference that I asked you to specify in my last post? I don't get it. All I see when I read this is "Immeasurable characters need to physically move in order to be beyond linear time, while Solaris doesn't even need to lift a finger"

And even characters who are omnipresent across space have thrown attacks that strike periods in time that can be avoided by those with finite speed.

I'd have to see an example of this to see how it compares to what we're currently discussing.

Being omnipresent across time being qualified as Immeasurable is no different then just making characters with spatial omnipresence infinite speed or that it takes 0 seconds for me to travel from point A to point B because someone has a length of line AB.

I actually agree in the sense that space-omnis should tie in a race againsts someone with infinite speed. Time-omnis like Solaris are the same, but with Immeasurables. This makes more sense when you keep in mind that space is a 3D concept, while time is a 4D one. Let's compare the benefits of infinite speed to those of space omnipresence to paint a clearer picture and then we'll get to the part where we start to disagree.

Infinite speed:
++ Can travel to any destination within a 3D space in a litteral instant
++ Can see anyone with a finite speed rank as completely frozen
++ Can cross infinite distances
++ Should be able to replicate a space-omni's benefits by moving through the entire volume of the universe for as long as they need (given said universe is finite or they don't suffer from the drawback seen directly below ⬇)
-- May require a finite time frame to cross an infinite distance for some reason
-- Initially lack the same sense of awareness that space-omnis have
-- Appear completely frozen to immeasurable characters
-- Without context, should be assumed to have far worse survivabillity than a space-omni

Space omnipresence (within 1 universe):
++ Already where they need to be before the infinite thinks of going there
++ Depending on the cosmology of thier verse, may occupy an infinite space
++ Should be able to attack at infinite speed (in theory)
++ Can see and feel everything everywhere, granting better awareness instantly
++ Without context, should be assumed to have far better survivabillity than an infinite (needs to be killed everywhere in space)
-- Doesn't necessarily see characters of finite speed as statues
-- May be limited in thier attack speed due to bad writing

Now let's compare that to the differences between an immeasurable and a time-omni so I can properly convey why I think temporal omnipresence does at least grant infinite reaction speed

Immeasurable:
++ Can travel to any destination within a 4D space in an instant
++ Can see anyone with a finite or infinite speed rank as frozen
++ Can dodge an attack that's already hit them (in theory)
++ Can replicate the benits of an infinite, and a space-omni
++ Should be able to replicate the benefits of a time-omni by travelling between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds (given that time in said timeline isn't endless or they don't suffer from the drawback seen directly below ⬇)
-- May require a finite time frame to travel through an infinite amount of time for some reason
-- Initially lack the awareness that time-omnis have
-- May not be able to dodge an attack that's already hit them due to bad writing
-- Without context, should be assumed to have far worse survivabillity than a time-omni

Time-omni (accross all of time):
++ Already where and when they need to be before the immeasurable thinks of going there (they already reached thier destination in the very beginning of time)
++ Can see anyone with a finite speed rank as frozen (due to thier future actions being seen in excruciating detail by the time-omni down to the smallest imaginable time frame)
++ Can replicate the benefits of an infinite and a space-omni via always staying where they were and already being where they're going (should they choose to fill the entire volume of the universe with thier presence, they can, and since they're already present in the future, the time that they would normally take to do so is irrelevant)
++ Can see and feel everything and around them accross every time period at once, and can spread this superior awareness across the universe simply through moving at thier own pace by virtue of already being in the future
++Without context, should have far better survivabillity than an immeasurable (needs to be killed everywhen in time)

It's proof they can reach things passively or instantly by nature that they're already their, but it's no proof they actively had a brain that processed in negative 0 seconds.

It is, actually. If you attack him in the present (whatever "your" present may be), Solaris would be able to see exactly what you, and every other living thing that ever was in his line of sight, is up to. He would know what they've done, what they're doing , and what they will do in that place. He'll know what your exact intentions are in less than an instant before you know it yourself, and yeet a meteor at your past, present and future self all at once. Unless you're immeasurable AND capable of hitting someone through multiple points in time, how do you stand a chance against him?

There's just too many negatives to prove, and asking why it's not Immeasurable speed is asking me to prove a negative.

I've proven my positive so the ball is in your court

There needs to be spatial distance divided by time as moving 0 distance in 0 or negative time is inapplicable. There needs to be proof that distance was traveled, and being omnipresent usually creates even more burden of proof when it comes to Immeasurable speed. Because a character who is omnipresent would just attack a specific period in time and space; there's no travel or muzzle velocity; just an attack with an already there starting point.

Except we clearly see that Solaris's attacks are in every point in time at once when you switch to a character in a different time period, and Solaris would have to be really stupid to just attack and at one point in time when he exists in all of them. The same can be said for other omnipresent characters who attack in only one spot, but again, I haven't seen any example and we can't disregard every feat involving omnipresence just because some writers don't know how it specifically works. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Sonic 06's writers somewhat succeeded where many others failed.

I may have dug myself in a deep hole I won’t escape by starting a keyboard war of huge paragraphs, but I really feel it's the only way to finally truly settle this. I know that immeasurable Sonic is going to be brought up in threads for all of eternity if we don't throw everything on the table in this one. If you have any better solution, I'd be glad to hear it, and if anyone is willing to take my place in case I get tired of this conversation, I would greatly appreciate it

 

[Peptocoptr27]

God damn I have no life. I need to stop doing this once this is all over

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I mean, I litterally spent 4 hours straight thinking about this and finding the right words. Who does that? Lmao

 

[Greenshifter]

you did well Peptocoptr.

 

[MysticMania]

I know what you mean, Pepto. I appreciate that you're still willing to discuss this matter. I'm still in this as well, but I know and understand that this can be very tiring for many involved.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Thanks for the support guys. If we can just manage to make everyone shut up about Solaris for a couple of months, it'll all be worth it lol

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

You did a great job,Petpto. Again, I agree with your arguments

 

[Theuser789]

Good job Pep, the why is isn't immesurable needs to be explained, and just saying "can't prove a negative" isn't going to cut it, immesurable is already explained, this is a downgrade thread, not a upgrade one, the burden of proof is on the downgrade side to prove their claims in order to downgrade

 

[JJSliderman]

Agreed, feel like the Immeasurable downgrade seems kind of arbitrary.

 

[MysticMania]

the why is isn't immesurable needs to be explained, and just saying "can't prove a negative" isn't going to cut it, immesurable is already explained, this is a downgrade thread, not a upgrade one, the burden of proof is on the downgrade side to prove their claims in order to downgrade

In a sense, I agree. Of course, it's important that those in favor of immeasurable should still debate in favor of their side, but we've been doing that, and I feel we've provided really good pieces of evidence to back up our claims. I've argued against JoJo scaling before, and their strategy was simply trying to push back against my side, but without actually proving their side. ( I ended up """winning""" that debate, if you consider nerfing every person's favorite JoJo Part a win. )

 

[MysticMania]

Bump ?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Since temporal AoE is a guaranteed upgrade no matter what, what are we waiting for to add it? Does anyone here have access to the hedgehogs' profiles?

 

[MysticMania]

How exactly does Temporal AoE work, by the way?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

It's the offensive version of temporal omnipresence. You can hit someone and have them feel that same hit at multiple points in time

 

[MysticMania]

Okay, thank you. I know this may be dumb of me to ask, but just to be entirely sure, what makes them have temporal AoE? Is it due to Solaris essentially always guarding himself, in some way?