Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[MysticMania]

I still don't feel the arguments in favor of the downgrade are solid enough. Numerous times, we've gone through your points and explained why those wouldn't debunk immeasurable speed. We can't end this in a, "because I said so" verdict by the admins, because that in of itself defeats any purpose for VS Debating in general. There's a lot that genuinely backs up the Super forms having immeasurable speed, and as of now, that's yet to have been changed. There's much less that supports the idea that they can't or shouldn't have immeasurable speed, however.

 

[Duedate8898]

I still don't feel the arguments in favor of the downgrade are solid enough. Numerous times, we've gone through your points and explained why those wouldn't debunk immeasurable speed.

And numerous times your points those very points you have brought up have been answered with our own as to why your side is incorrect.

 

[MysticMania]

Not to sound ignorant, but the issue with your debunks to our points though, is that they're not right. I'm still more than happy to find out why immeasurable isn't accurate, because I don't like debating using incorrect stats and/or abilities. However, the TL;DR to your arguments have essentially just been, "no ". That's fine, but why "no "? If Immeasurable speed isn't enough, then why isn't it? It can't just be described as "b'cause", I feel. We've backed up why we feel it's absolutely enough to evade and counter Solaris, and those points still stand as we speak.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

And numerous times your points those very points you have brought up have been answered with our own as to why your side is incorrect.

Bruh. You didn't let me finish. And how do you expect me to do so if it's specifically established that nothing I can do could ever change your mind? You're the mods and what you say goes. I'm not gonna waste my time convincing people who don't want to be convinced. It's a lose-lose situation for that's only gonna bring me hours closer to death without the slightest chance to make a difference

 

[MysticMania]

These feats clearly can't be Type 2 acausality and/or MFTL+, or anything. So, if not immeasurable, then what is it, may I ask?

 

[Duedate8898]

If that's how you feel then fine. There is a clear disconnect here that I honestly don't know how to solve

Bruh. You didn't let me finish. And how do you expect me to do so if it's specifically established that nothing I can do could ever change your mind? You're the mods and what you say goes. I'm not gonna waste my time convincing people who don't want to be convinced. It's a lose-lose situation for that's only gonna bring me hours closer to death without the slightest chance to make a difference

If you have something new to bring up that you think will for sure support immeasurable speed, go ahead and post it. I personally have no problem with waiting for you to say your points. But also, it's not that nothing you can do will change my mind, it's just so far what you've shown hasn't changed my mind. And I've stated why.

These feats clearly can't be Type 2 acausality and/or MFTL+, or anything. So, if not immeasurable, then what is it, may I ask?

This was already asked before and I'll give you the same response I gave then, no idea. It seems like temporal AOE is how the solution is being solved for damaging solaris but the dodging doesn't really have anything I know of that answers it.

 

[MysticMania]

It does though. Immeasurable speed is the only speed fast enough for them to avoid attacks that would already have struck, and if they dodge those attacks ( as we know they can ), then they've essentially "unstruck" themselves. This means you don't need to indicate any past damage being taken, as they're essentially "untaking" it via actually dodging the attacks that hit them.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am still fine with downgrading the Immeasurable speed for the affected characters.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Ok. I just hope DarkDragon feels the same way. I'll have to do this tommorow because it's getting late in my time zone. Also keep in mind that I need to debunk both of your arguments so I might take a while. Especially now that I accidentally deeleted what I wrote by zoning out and reloading the page like an idiot

 

[MysticMania]

Alright. I'll wait for you to be back tomorrow, Pepto.

 

[Duedate8898]

It does though. Immeasurable speed is the only speed fast enough for them to avoid attacks that would already have struck, and if they dodge those attacks ( as we know they can ), then they've essentially "unstruck" themselves. This means you don't need to indicate any past damage being taken, as they're essentially "untaking" it via actually dodging the attacks that hit them.

No, no it doesn't. Since we're playing the game from the perspective of the immeasurable characters, if they were to unstrike themselves we would first see the impact and then them reacting to and avoiding the attack. That is never communicated to us.

 

[ElixirBlue]

No, no it doesn't. Since we're playing the game from the perspective of the immeasurable characters, if they were to unstrike themselves we would first see the impact and then them reacting to and avoiding the attack. That is never communicated to us.

How would you like it to be communicated to you? This is Sonic 06, with Sonic standing upside down on the ceiling from loops. If you are looking for answers through gameplay, Sonic resists Gravity.

 

[MysticMania]

If they avoid the attack, then how are they struck by the attack?

 

[MysticMania]

How would you like it to be communicated to you? This is Sonic 06, with Sonic standing upside down on the ceiling from loops. If you are looking for answers through gameplay, Sonic resists Gravity.

Fun Fact: Sonic can survive clipping through walls. felt that was important

 

[ElixirBlue]

@Duedate8898 Considering its Sonic 06, why we judging abilities based on Gameplay? If we are judging abilities based on Sonic 06's gameplay, we should give all the glitches gameplay shown throughout the game to the profile's powers/abilities section.

We can make that happen if Gameplay is the reason Immeasurable is being downgraded.

 

[MysticMania]

Considering its Sonic 06, why we judging abilities based on Gameplay? If we are judging abilities based on Sonic 06's gameplay, we should give all the glitches gameplay shown through the game to the profile's powers/abilities section.

And considering they beat Solaris, and no substantial or notable injuries were mentioned, we can infer from that, that they must've been dodging his attacks, gameplay or no gameplay.

 

[ElixirBlue]

And considering they beat Solaris, and no substantial or notable injuries were mentioned, we can infer from that, that they must've been dodging his attacks, gameplay or no gameplay.

No, I like that we are judging Sonic 06's abilities based on Gameplay. I want to give Sonic resistance to Gravity in Base. He already has it but we can now make it stronger.

Among other abilities.

 

[MysticMania]

No, I like that we are judging Sonic 06's abilities based on Gameplay. I want to give Sonic resistance to Gravity in Base. He already has it but we can now make it stronger.

Among other abilities.

Unfortunately, this means Sonic needs to be nerfed. If he's in a fight for longer than 9 minutes, he'll pass away from boredom. If he sits still for 2 minutes, then he dies of annoyance.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Since we're playing the game from the perspective of the immeasurable characters, if they were to unstrike themselves we would first see the impact and then them reacting to and avoiding the attack. That is never communicated to us.

I'm using this quote to validate my CRT to make Sonic's overall Gameplay in Sonic 06 to be added to his P&A. Since that Gameplay is clearly communicated to us.

 

[Duedate8898]

How would you like it to be communicated to you? This is Sonic 06, with Sonic standing upside down on the ceiling from loops. If you are looking for answers through gameplay, Sonic resists Gravity.

By actually showing it. Just because the game is low quality and has bug issues that doesn't mean it doesn't have to actually properly depict what you're trying to prove. Are there any lore statements that would indicate immeasurable speed? No, then we have to rely on what the game shows us, and if the game doesn't show it to us properly then we just have no justification.

 

[MysticMania]

Why would they need to portray the characters avoiding an attack, essentially? I don't mean to sound rude at all, but I feel like I've already asked this before. If they dodge an attack, that means they aren't hit by it, thus, there's no need to show them being hit by what they dodged.

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm sorry, but I can only repeat myself so many times before I'm done. So for the night, I shall not be responding to this thread anymore. Tommorow, if it isn't answered by another, I will answer your question.

 

[ElixirBlue]

By actually showing it. Just because the game is low quality and has bug issues that doesn't mean it doesn't have to actually properly depict what you're trying to prove. Are there any lore statements that would indicate immeasurable speed? No, then we have to rely on what the game shows us, and if the game doesn't show it to us properly then we just have no justification.

But this is Sonic 06. Just saying low quality(lol), bug issues(lol), not to mention the massive plotholes and inconsistency, to ignore all of that and treat the Solaris boss fight on its Gameplay, as if the Boss Fight was from any old MARIO game, separate from the rest of the entire gameplay of Sonic 06, is frankly, unfounded and very unrealistic to simply judge the game based on what we see.

 

[MysticMania]

I'm sorry, but I can only repeat myself so many times before I'm done. So for the night, I shall not be responding to this thread anymore. Tommorow, if it isn't answered by another, I will answer your question.

That's okay, I don't blame you. I hope you have a good night.

 

[ShakeResounding]

There's such a gross lack of proper communication in this thread that it makes me want to barf.

If Immeasurable is going to go, make it concise. Because we're 9 pages into this mess and people on the very same side for downgrading Immeasurable have leapt through multiple different, and even contradictory, reasonings in this single CRT alone. Sometimes even at the same time. And now that a consensus is reached for them, some people aren't even seeing legitimate debunks. These are the exact reasons that more threads will be spawned from this one in the future, because nobody is going to read even one full page of this thread due to all the circular argumentation.

Come on, people. Be clear.

 

[MysticMania]

I'm sorry if my messages and/or points have been confusing, at all.

 

[Greenshifter]

The former is omnipresent across all time and space in her final form, yet her attacks are dodgable by those with finite speeds.

This is an immense problem then since those kind of attacks probably can’t even be dodged by immeasurable characters. So really if the finite speed character has no other powers then it’s a blatant inconsistency. You shouldn’t conclude from this that temporal omnipresent attacks can be dodged with finite speed, this is like saying MFTL+ Flash can dodge Zoom’s infinite speed attacks so you don’t need infinite speed to dodge infinitely fast attacks.

infinite time periods of the target, but may need to hit a present time period to take effect.

This is again fiction being fiction. If you were to apply this to all of fiction then you end up with massive headaches like time travel killing not working on them despite having no acausality or whatever. Also are you sure these characters have no acausality? In fact we even made a low 2-C standards thread as to usually discount feats where the entire timeline (of someone) isn’t affected from being low 2-C.

 

[Greenshifter]

they just see an infinite number of said characters across an infinite number of time periods.

They don't move and they can even properly set up a average human attack speed projectile to strike a Infinite speed character easily due to having access to all periods and proper reaching

Yet this somehow doesn’t give at the very least infinite reaction speed and it should actually be immeasurable since this is an uncountable infinity?

So infinite speed characters can’t dodge it but finite speed characters can?

 

[Theuser789]

Not only is there a direct statement that they're in a place where space-time is distorted, but since the entire world has been ruined it would be strange for Solaris to just have one area that also isn't being affected by them trying to destroy all of the timelines

Stop acting as if you know more about the game then actual knowelegeble people, recognize your flaws, I was the one who brought that statment in the first place, honestly if you weren't a staff member you would probably be ignored because of those sub par points

You are completely misunderstanding what was actualy happening, the distortion of space caused by Solaris created an intersection between two timelines, that's it, if it was the entire world everyone would be alive, it's just a small temporary rift, that Solaris was outside of, if he was inside the rift he would have destroyed it, so stop arguing about things you clearly do not know with such an authority, you don't even know what's happening in the actual scene, this is why people dislike VSBW

 

[Theuser789]

Honestly this thread would have already ended if those two things happened

1) The staff didn't appear to be as close minded as they are, if they at least looked like they understood what people were saying even if they respectfully disagreed instead of simply rejected no matter what was said. Honestly only DDM has been open minded here

2) If it was actualy explained why, instead of just "this isn't immesurable because a 2006 game didn't do exactly what I want/this doesn't fit the standards/etc", this one would go a long way for this thread

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to sound rude, User, but I feel you're coming off as rather aggressive. I agree with your points, and I still agree with immeasurable, but, I feel we can keep this thread respectful.

 

[Theuser789]

Agressive? how so? I can just edit my post then, I am more frustated than anything

 

[MysticMania]

I don't blame you at all for being frustrated, really. I think it's just your wording with how you addressed some other people. ( I know that's vague, so I apologise. )

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I have lost track of this thread. I am pinging some more people here to get their opinion on this, if you can summarize the main argument once.

@Sera_EX @The_real_cal_howard @DemonGodMitchAubin @Starter_Pack @TISSG7Redgrave

 

[Starter_Pack]

I can...try to help. What are the summarized arguments here?

 

[MysticMania]

In favor of keeping Immeasurable speed for game Super forms, my summary is essentially:

• The existence of Sonic Generations debunks the idea of Type 2 acausality being a factor. Type 1 wouldn't be enough to save or help anyone here, and I've heard Types 3, 4, and 5 don't impact this? ( Either that, or nothing supports their existence here in the first place. I'm just blanking on that specific part. ) Even if they did have Type 2, however, it still wouldn't explain Sonic repeatedly outspeeding Solaris.
• In both the Japanese and English scripts for Sonic 06, Solaris is described to us by Dr.Eggman as existing "in the past, present, and future, all at once." No specific points in time are specified in either script, further supporting the idea that Solaris exists throughout all of time, all at once, which would make him Temporally Omnipresent. Using speed, very most likely, the Hedgehogs travel to different points in time to battle Solaris. Even if they didn't time travel, that actually wouldn't affect the feat. They're still dodging and countering attacks that exist throughout all of time, all at once.
• No finite speed would be fast enough to dodge Solaris' projectiles, which are also Temporally Omnipresent. However, Super Sonic, Super Shadow, and Super Silver all dodge multiple attacks from Solaris throughout the fight, and no major or significant injuries are implied after or during the battle. Super Sonic's also fast enough to hit Solaris before he can block, despite the fact that Solaris can see every Sonic, at every second, all at once. He would already know Sonic's every move, and yet, is still beaten to the punch, so to speak. DueDate has argued that the gameplay doesn't display the characters being hit by past attacks, but as I said, "If they dodge an attack, that means they aren't hit by it, thus, there's no need to show them being hit by what they dodged."

That's my summary, but I could certainly be forgetting things. Peptocoptr27 may do a much better job at explaining this than I could, though.

 

[Theuser789]

Context​

I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here

Misconceptions​

First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional

First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change

First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both

And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier

The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering

---

Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points

First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long

Arguments​

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself

Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:

This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong

Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.

Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.

Conclusion​

The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.

I already made a summary ages ago, maybe some of the new guys can make more, as I said I just want an actual reasoning for the disagreement at this point

 

[Starter_Pack]

Hearing between the two, it seems that Theuser789 has the more compelling argument, as it does seem to counter all of the pro arguments while adding extra context and justification for not having Immeasurable Solaris and Super Sonic and friends.

 

[MysticMania]

Hearing between the two, it seems that Theuser789 has the more compelling argument, as it does seem to counter all of the pro arguments while adding extra context and justification for not having Immeasurable Solaris and Super Sonic and friends.

I'm sorry for asking, but do you mean you agree with immeasurable, or you agree with removing it? unless I'm mistaken, both user and I are pro-immeasurable.

 

[Sera_EX]

@AKM sama

I don't participate in Sonic threads anymore.