MLP Revisions (Downgrade)

[BeautifulDuwanged]

So? That’s not how energy beams work, energy blasts in fiction can push those back with forcefields or send them flying because of their KE. Shadow pony was using all his strength to hold that blast back, the same amount of energy needed to use a full power magic blast in that exact verse. Pushing can cause physical damage to people’s bodies in certain cases if you push or shove that person hard enough.

Literally none of this is relevant.

KE isn't usable because this is a magical beam that lacks any actual mass. The Pony of Shadows was not using the same level of AP as the Elements, and I already explained why. He is evidently overpowered and pushed far more once he's weakened and loses Stygian, easily being pushed away, whereas he could hold back the Eleemnts, yet he isn't destroyed or even harmed by it other than Stygian being pulled away. This is the most blatant example of the EOH not using AP, and in this case specifically, only pushing something in with their LS force, not their AP.

Additionally, this doesn't even matter because we can literally see that it doesn't affect anything. He isn't physically harmed, whether he's weakened or empowered with Stygian. He is only harmed when Stygian is forced out of his body, as I've shown above.

You still haven’t said where it is stated that the elements changes its power output depending on what it’s destroying

I'm not going to repeat what I said. It is blatantly shown and it's an artifact that preserves order, which would obviously mean it's going to do that level of power for an object of that level, which can be even weaker in some circumstances if they explicitly hold back or are not trying to hurt someone, which we additionally see here. I've made this clear throughout my responses and your only response is that it needs to have an accompanying sentence, which isn't required at all for something that's as blatant and explicit as something like this

 

[Antvasima]

I'll go over this when I am available.

Thank you for helping out.

I am currently leaning towards agreeing with Duwanged, but I am not certain. Further staff help would be very appreciated.

 

[Coolboy6]

This is an omnidirectional blast of magic that only takes out half the hive with everything else unharmed besides the clouds which isn’t being controlled by a character that can selectively harm stuff, it just happened with no explanation. The point is that this stuff happens all the time. Actually give me evidence that the Elements are controlled into not harming stuff as opposed to not causing damage because of plot reasons. And apparently LS lasers are a thing now

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

This is an omnidirectional blast of magic that only takes out half the hive with everything else unharmed besides the clouds which isn’t being controlled by a character that can selectively harm stuff, it just happened with no explanation. The point is that this stuff happens all the time. Actually give me evidence that the Elements are controlled into not harming stuff as opposed to not causing damage because of plot reasons. And apparently LS lasers are a thing now

Why are you claiming that they can't selectively harm stuff? Obviously this would imply otherwise, especially since claiming that there's "no explanation" doesn't exclude that it's blatantly something characters can do or would be chopped up to PIS. Also, you fail to ignore that in your own example, they were all targeting Chrysalis directly, and this explosion is blocked by the same magic that the Changelings are using to transform, given how they begin to exit after the explosions, so they've clearly avoided the damage regardless.

Irregardless, I've given tons of evidence above, though I'll gladly send more. Additionally, you can't argue that they "don't cause this much damage because of plot reasons" because this is something that happens in literally every situation they face, especially when they're actually used for AP. Midnight Sparkle wasn't tearing reality when her blasts were colliding with Daydream Shimmer, whilst in comparison her basic attacks and her mere presence when she was trying to actively tear apart the world were able to do so, the Element of Love being shown to target Changelings, Chrysalis, and the damage they'd done to Equestria, the Elements of Harmony specifically only targeting Sombra and his dark magic's effects, Rainbow Power directly being able to target Tirek, even if it should have a 2-C range if we argued that their attacks are always at that AP level, the HuMane 6's Pony-Up transformations specifically targeting Sunset Shimmer, creating a tornado that we see literally damages the surrounding area, too, and how it can additionally target the students when it releases energy, this energy wave that pushes back the Siren's and additionally removes their singing effects, directly only affecting some of the clouds and then directly targeting the gems of the Dazzlings and their projections, without harming them or any students, how Sci-Twi can output a magic aura that doesn't harm her friends but she uses to destroy the attacks of Gloriosa, the Elements that can negate the effects of Discord's magic also directly attack him without affecting his magic, restoring it moments later regardless (which doesn't affect anyone but the beings that were affected by his magic, even if we argued that they shared the power that was used to fix reality, it would still make no sense to only induce a single effect if, by going off the argument for it not varying in power, should still induce that amount of power), specifically target the Memory Stone without affecting Wallflower with any of the energy of the beam, or when they aren't able to control the extension of the magic, such as with the portal to limbo, we directly see it causes damage out of the users control. The fact that almost every use of the Elements display this, it makes literally no sense to say it's PIS, especially since you yourself stated that this happens consistently in the verse, not just with the Elements.

In a verse where they literally use their magic energy to lift things and one of the main uses of lasers in the Pony of Shadow's defeat is by using them for pulling things, I don't see why this is weird.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have not read the sequal comics, so I cannot confirm if they're legit or not. But I do recall a thread about this a long time ago. I remember Amelia Lonelyheart having arguments to support 2-C, but I heard she was burned out from MLP threads last time she commented.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Phoenks @Tllmbrg @Psychomaster35

@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234

Your help would be appreciated here. It is not a very long discussion, so I think that it should be manageable.

 

[Phoenks]

I share the same opinion as Medeus after reading over both sides, though I am inclined to agree with Lightbuster as it seems Duwange has yet to go over their most recent points.

No it's not, because an infinite power for destruction is literally not the same as infinite power in the tiering system.

The power to destroy directly correlates to AP/Tier (Hell, it's even called "Destructive Capacity" as a synonym). Infinite power to/for destruction seems like a clear High 3-A statement to me.

 

[FinePoint]

Lightbuster is one of the most knowledgable people on MLP I know, I see him often put in the immense work towards supporting the verse that I'm not able to.

Once again he is making the most sense to me right now. If I have time I might do my own full analysis at some point.

Please do not discredit him just because he has the foresight not to drag on a discussion that could otherwise quickly fill several pages.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

The power to destroy directly correlates to AP/Tier (Hell, it's even called "Destructive Capacity" as a synonym). Infinite power to/for destruction seems like a clear High 3-A statement to me.

Except you ignore the entire context of the statement that it's literally him using them explicitly for something that isn't High 3-A, nor does this bring up anything that I said above about how it's a literal exaggeration of their power. They blatantly do not have High 3-A AP, as his entire point of saying this is for a feat that's 3-C, and we directly see how he exaggerates his power, especially when he's explaining his plan to one of the Pillars which is supposed to induce fear, especially as he continuously brings up how he's defeated them before and could easily deal with them, something that he doesn't have the power to do, and given his literal obsession with the power of Celestia and Luna, along with his own obsession of the shadows which is what he thinks is all-powerful, we have no reason to assume it's literal.

Irregardless, an infinite power to destroy isn't equal to the power to destroy infinite structures, those are completely different, regardless of your idea of what DC is in this case. You just have a power that's far superior than what's needed to do the task, which is clearly what he mentions when referring to Celestia and Luna simply because of their magic capacity. Nothing directly supports them having infinite power from an unreliable source who's exaggerating said power, who's basing his entire beliefs on Starswirl's notes and no other claims, and is completely obsessed with that. Having an infinite source of power (which is likely what it's referring to, given that the princesses are supposed to be immortal and thus have a nigh-infinite amount of magic, in comparison to the Pillars, of which Mistmane has a limited amount of magic and others have extremely limited uses, like Rockhoof who only has magic that amplifies his strength) is not equal to having infinite power, which is far more likely what Starswirl would be referring to, with the Pony of Shadow's plan being that he's going to destroy all forms of light across infinite universes, and as Lightbuster states above, would work with the idea that it would need infinite stamina or infinite power, where it fits into the idea of the former. The Pony of Shadows simply doesn't need to live long enough for his plan to work because that's not his plan.

While I also didn't comment on this, the idea of the Pony of Shadows aging is because there's a Stygian in an alternate universe who has longer hair. It's not the same Stygian so it's flawed to claim that Stygian ages within the Pony of Shadows or would die from old age when he never ages in canon, even after years, as we see in Legends of Magic, and given the idea that the Pony of Shadows is this void that Stygian stays inside and isn't physically changed outside of the shadows themselves, I really doubt that he ages, further supporting the fact that it isn't 'infinite power' but rather an infinite amount of power 'for destruction'. Also, the POS has verbatim stated that they have an unimaginable power, a direct exaggeration of said power which is clearly not based on Starswirl's own notes, so he's definitely strayed off from those original ideas.

 

[sanicspood]

alternate universe Stygian never entered limbo anyways because of the Eris panel, which is why he does age. Starswirl clearly ages before limbo, years afterwards he does not age at all, Stygian literally follows this as well, hell, Rockhoof is still a small pony after losing his magic from Tirek, with no aging to his body and he's been that way even before being put into limbo. To argue that they're the same and one is simply him after the events, that's deadass wrong

 

[Jibz]

Regardless of how good and knowledgeable lightbuster is, if they are literally refusing to carry on dialects we can't exactly agree with their stance over Duwange's because there cant be any furtherance in a discussion between the two.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Personally I think LightBuster’s arguments are more sound.

 

[Coolboy6]

Regardless of how good and knowledgeable lightbuster is, if they are literally refusing to carry on dialects we can't exactly agree with their stance over Duwange's because there cant be any furtherance in a discussion between the two.

1. Who tf is “we?”
2. Choosing not to continue a discussion after hours of trying to respond to another one sounds like a dumb reason to disagree

 

[Jibz]

1. Who tf is “we?”

We as a whole. That's pretty self evident and use a more polite tone there's no reason to get aggressive

2. Choosing not to continue a discussion after hours of trying to respond to another one sounds like a dumb reason to disagree

I never said it was a reason to disagree. I said that refusing to continue in dialects is pretty unfair to duwange, and that we cant exactly just 100% side with Lightbuster when no proper discussion has been able to be achieved from what i've read.

Not exactly much room to disagree here with my stance. Only way you could disagree is if you misinterpreted my point as to be we should completely disagree or ignore Lightbuster's stance, which wasn't how i wished my argument to come off, and if it did come off that way to you, then im sorry.

 

[FinePoint]

Regardless of how good and knowledgeable lightbuster is, if they are literally refusing to carry on dialects we can't exactly agree with their stance over Duwange's because there cant be any furtherance in a discussion between the two.

I'm sorry, but that's simply not true.
People's core arguments tend to be revealed within their first few posts.
After that it tends to devolve into repeating themselves or doing largely unimportant nitpicks.
This is not even a case where he refused to have a discussion, as you can see above he made at least two very long and thorough responses.

I never said it was a reason to disagree.

we can't exactly agree with their stance over Duwange's because there cant be any furtherance in a discussion between the two.

Also you are not making sense here. Unless I'm mistaken, not agreeing with someone is the same thing as disagreeing with them.

 

[Jibz]

I'm sorry, but that's simply not true.
People's core arguments tend to be revealed within their first few posts.

And the development of it is far more important then the core message.

After that it tends to devolve into repeating themselves or doing largely unimportant nitpicks.

That depends on the person

This is not even a case where he refused to have a discussion, as you can see above he made at least two very long and thorough responses.

True, but having read both, and Duwange's statements, just wish the discussion could have advanced to make the choice alot more simple rather then as cluttered and unorganized as it is now. As what is Duwange to do now? They've replied to Light's comments and people are still agreeing due to what Light said. Is Duwange to respond, again? What options do they have in this regard.

Also you are not making sense here. Unless I'm mistaken, not agreeing with someone is the same thing as disagreeing with them.

If that's what you took away from my argument, why even make the comment in the first place? As you've clearly misunderstood even though i've elaborated.

 

[FinePoint]

True, but having read both, and Duwange's statements, just wish the discussion could have advanced to make the choice alot more simple rather then as cluttered and unorganized as it is now. As what is Duwange to do now? They've replied to Light's comments and people are still agreeing due to what Light said. Is Duwange to respond, again? What options do they have in this regard.

If they got the last say and people still don't agree with them then clearly they did not find their response to be convincing or to effectively dismantle Light's argument.
This is not a game to win, people are not entitled to agreement no matter how much they talk- there may be nothing Duwange can do if their side simply isn't convincing, my apologies.

 

[Jibz]

there may be nothing Duwange can do if their side simply isn't convincing, my apologies.

that's true, but i personally felt Duwange's argument was compelling, and thus the reason for my apprehension. Though perhaps that is merely my own perception. Regardless, it just feels iffy to me

 

[DivineAura44]

I think the problem is the fact Duwanged hasn't done a fully in-depth response to Light's 2nd message. Even if Light doesn't respond, (I highly doubt he will) it'll give more backing to Duwanged's argument because what we are left with as of now is Light having a virtually fully unrefuted response and that's bound to have people side with Light whether or not Duwanged has a counter to Light's points.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Her points were mostly a bit lengthy, that doesn't mean they aren't invalid and she's at least trying to be reasonable. Though if there's a TLDR version for mass multitaskers to analyze, that could be of help. I first want to recheck was is used to justify 2-C in the first place, and where the 3-C proposal even comes from in the first place.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I first want to recheck was is used to justify 2-C in the first place, and where the 3-C proposal even comes from in the first place.

Not planning on forming any counterarguments, but I'm willing to pitch in on more minor stuff provided it doesn't blow up into a full-scale comment war.

2-C came from The @2nd Existential Seed. Don't recall the thread, and don't care to look for it, but it discussed statements from Midnight Sparkle and Sci-Twi almost destroying the Human and Pony worlds.

No idea where 3-C comes from. Probably from this calc, since it's a similar feat? But, it's not 3-C. I've disagreed with the calc being flawed on it's basis of assuming every Star being = to the Sun in size from the beginning, as well as the number of Stars being massively highballed. 10^24 stars comes from a source that assumes every galaxy is Milky Way sized in terms of star count when the average galaxy doesn't contain that much. It'd be 4-A for both Pony of Shadows and Necrozma.

 

[Phoenks]

No idea where 3-C comes from. Probably from this calc, since it's a similar feat? But, it's not 3-C. I've disagreed with the calc being flawed on it's basis of assuming every Star being = to the Sun in size from the beginning, as well as the number of Stars being massively highballed. 10^24 stars comes from a source that assumes every galaxy is Milky Way sized in terms of star count when the average galaxy doesn't contain that much. It'd be 4-A for both Pony of Shadows and Necrozma.

I took a look at the calculation and I don't know what's wrong with it.

The sun is an average-sized star, and the milky way galaxy is an average-sized galaxy. It seems like a fair estimation to me.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I took a look at the calculation and I don't know what's wrong with it.

The sun is an average-sized star, and the milky way galaxy is an average-sized galaxy. It seems like a fair estimation to me.

My issue is I've never seen any source for the Milky Way being the average-sized. Yeah, it's not exactly big or small in one direction, but that doesn't mean it represents how many stars are in every other galaxy. It's like saying the Sun represents the average star, when a gargantuan percent of them are actually red dwarfs, with Sun-sized stars not even being 1/10th of the amount of Stars you see.

I commonly see many sources claiming the average galaxy has a thousand times fewer stars than the Milky Way.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that I am neutral currently. It is likely better if other staff members decide what to do here.

 

[Jibz]

Not planning on forming any counterarguments, but I'm willing to pitch in on more minor stuff provided it doesn't blow up into a full-scale comment war.

2-C came from The @2nd Existential Seed. Don't recall the thread, and don't care to look for it, but it discussed statements from Midnight Sparkle and Sci-Twi almost destroying the Human and Pony worlds.

No idea where 3-C comes from. Probably from this calc, since it's a similar feat? But, it's not 3-C. I've disagreed with the calc being flawed on it's basis of assuming every Star being = to the Sun in size from the beginning, as well as the number of Stars being massively highballed. 10^24 stars comes from a source that assumes every galaxy is Milky Way sized in terms of star count when the average galaxy doesn't contain that much. It'd be 4-A for both Pony of Shadows and Necrozma.

the MLP goat returned :O

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Just a note that I am neutral currently. It is likely better if other staff members decide what to do here.

TBF we have already had 3 or 4 staff disagree with the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody write a tally regarding who thinks what here please?

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

I think the problem is the fact Duwanged hasn't done a fully in-depth response to Light's 2nd message. Even if Light doesn't respond, (I highly doubt he will) it'll give more backing to Duwanged's argument because what we are left with as of now is Light having a virtually fully unrefuted response and that's bound to have people side with Light whether or not Duwanged has a counter to Light's points.

The reason I haven't responded is because I've asked Lightbuster if he wants me to respond his points, or if he's fully conceded his stance, aka he doesn't want me to respond to it, which he never responded to. If you guys want me to respond to his points, I will, but Lightbuster himself never responded to my question.

Not planning on forming any counterarguments, but I'm willing to pitch in on more minor stuff provided it doesn't blow up into a full-scale comment war.

2-C came from The @2nd Existential Seed. Don't recall the thread, and don't care to look for it, but it discussed statements from Midnight Sparkle and Sci-Twi almost destroying the Human and Pony worlds.

No idea where 3-C comes from. Probably from this calc, since it's a similar feat? But, it's not 3-C. I've disagreed with the calc being flawed on it's basis of assuming every Star being = to the Sun in size from the beginning, as well as the number of Stars being massively highballed. 10^24 stars comes from a source that assumes every galaxy is Milky Way sized in terms of star count when the average galaxy doesn't contain that much. It'd be 4-A for both Pony of Shadows and Necrozma.

The Pony of Shadows being 3-C is something I made an explanation for, which isn't more so a calc but essentially using a pre-existing calculation and multiplying that given how many places he affects for it. The original calculation was accepted and uses an average of star sizes rather than assuming stars, especially since absorbing light =/= destroying all forms of light in the universe. 2-C's explanation is fine, by the way, I just proposed that those with the "likely" rating, who were originally high tiers, would be put back at their original 4-B tier.

 

[EMagoIorSouI]

Seeing that I was pinged by Ant… Yeah, sorry. I wouldn’t really know where to chime in on this. Tier 2 MLP is already a topic I am somewhat neutral on but haven’t really given in the effort to debunk or support.

If I had to say anything however, then I believe Lightbuster’s arguments seem more credible, but that is subject to change if anything else were to come up.

 

[DivineAura44]

The reason I haven't responded is because I've asked Lightbuster if he wants me to respond his points, or if he's fully conceded his stance, aka he doesn't want me to respond to it, which he never responded to. If you guys want me to respond to his points, I will, but Lightbuster himself never responded to my question.

I am aware. I am saying do it anyways to provide more context. Then we go from there.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

If my response to Lightbuster's comment is truly needed, I will make it. But, given how Lightbuster himself doesn't want to continue the argument due to to time constraints, I don't think that the response is preferred, nor should it be required when all of the arguments I've made cover his main points.

 

[Jibz]

If my response to Lightbuster's comment is truly needed, I will make it. But, given how Lightbuster himself doesn't want to continue the argument due to to time constraints, I don't think that the response is preferred, nor should it be required when all of the arguments I've made cover his main points.

Imma be real with you dawg. If you don't respond people will disagree due to Light's comments.

 

[Lightbuster30]

The reason I haven't responded is because I've asked Lightbuster if he wants me to respond his points, or if he's fully conceded his stance, aka he doesn't want me to respond to it, which he never responded to. If you guys want me to respond to his points, I will, but Lightbuster himself never responded to my question.

I've conceded, yes, but mostly so I don't have to keep arguing. It has a lot to do with personal reasons. You can respond or not, but I probably won't personally. As I said: I'd much rather give up backscaling to the Elements so I don't have to keep making arguments for it, and focus on arguing other stuff..

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a tally regarding who thinks what here please?

So about this...

I've conceded, yes, but mostly so I don't have to keep arguing. It has a lot to do with personal reasons. You can respond or not, but I probably won't personally. As I said: I'd much rather give up backscaling to the Elements so I don't have to keep making arguments for it, and focus on arguing other stuff..

That doesn't seem to be a good reason to apply these suggested revisions if all staff members here have rejected it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

That doesn't seem to be a good reason to apply these suggested revisions if all staff members here have rejected it.

It's less a reason and more a declaration of "do whatever". Respond if you feel it's worth responding to.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, our staff here seem to agree with your interpretations.

 

[BeautifulDuwanged]

Imma be real with you dawg. If you don't respond people will disagree due to Light's comments.

And like I said, he conceded his response. If he doesn't want me to reply because he isn't going to respond to it, then I won't reply. But if it's wished,

Spoiler: Lightbuster response

Right, and I disagreed with the things said in said paragraph, hence the question.

And I already responded to those things. You can't say "I disagree" and not respond to the paragraph I made in response to yours.

From the very card you're talking about. I interpreted what the card was saying to mean that a single user had to represent all of them to use them

That's not what it says at all, so I don't know how you got that from the text shown. It states that in the text that each user is a representation of their specific element, not that the user must represent all Elements. Sunset Shimmer is an Element yet Redemption isn't required to use the Elements.

ot that I disagree with anyone growing in strength over the series, but those cards aren't saying Starlight is stronger than Nightmare Moon. They're comparing threat levels, with Starlight jokingly being referred to as a "threat to cutie marks".

Even ignoring the joke "Threat level" isn't something like a power level. Starlight being a greater threat doesn't automatically mean she's got more raw power to her name. Cozy Glow for instance is a massive threat to Equestria with her plans but is just a regular pegasus filly in terms of strength.

They are. Starlight is a bigger threat explicitly because of her magic, which is why it refers to her cutie mark magic. Not to mention, nothing suggests that Cozy Glow Is even referred to for threat level, and not to mention that these are referring through magic, not threats through plans. That's why Discord is on the same scale as Sombra, despite his plans being to cause chaos whilst Sombra is trying to take over and destroy the empire. One is an actual threat, one is being an inconvenience.

Didn't you say Celestia was superior? If she were superior, then she should be able to stop her. I'm assuming you mean "Would not stop her" if she was reluctant.

Celestia needed the Elements, and I literally never said that Celestia was superior. I pointed out that she had higher durability, yes, but she doesn't have any of the magic capabilities to actually defeat her without attacking her directly. This is her entire motive for sealing her away.

Well, that aside, the card doesn't seem to specify when in 2013, but by that point characters like Chrysalis, Discord, and Sombra were already introduced. So, I'd still argue the card was inaccurate to say only the Elements of Harmony had the magic to stop her. If we're talking in terms of practicality, then I guess it's accurate. But if we're talking about the power to stop her, there were already characters who challenge that claim.

There were not characters with that level of power. Celestia could not defeat her properly, Discord wasn't even around yet and he's relatively equal to the princesses, Tirek is depowered, Sombra was deceased at the time, etc. No other characters at that point in time could challenge that claim, especially when the timeframe. Also, idk why you're arguing the premise in the first place when this isn't the point. It'd only be wrong about the power if you truly wanted to argue this premise, nothing about the usage of the Elements when nothing contradicts this and in fact supports it more than anything.

If not all of it was drained, then arguments can be made that Midnight Sparkle absorbed the majority of it, and Sunset was left to absorb less (On account of being absorbed already), but still enough to defeat her.

That makes zero sense in context.

Sci-Twi absorbs magic from the portal right as Sunset tries to use it, rendering it inoperable. It is admittedly hard to tell if she's absorbing magic from Sunset or the portal, due to the magic having Sunset's color scheme and being drained from where she put her hand, but I also don't recall any bit about needing to have your own magic to use the portal, so I went with the portal losing its magic.

You need magic to enter through the portal, which is the entire reason why humans don't just go through the portal if they lean against it, for example. Sunset Shimmer, as she originates from Equestrian magic, can use this, and Sci-Twi drains it away. This is why it's specifically only impossible for her to do it, since we don't have any implication that it's impossible to cross through, especially when we see that Sci-Twi even uses it as a source to open holes to the Pony World. If it were truly depowered, she wouldn't need to do so, but it's implied she does so here.

Given Sombra can go intangible, it's hard to say whether or not he was disintegrated, or went intangible and fled. We see his body go jet black and get swept away by the blast, and next time we see him, he's in a shadow-like state. So, again, my take is that he went intangible to escape and hid until the time came to find and destroy the Tree of Harmony.

Ignoring that the Elements can inherently affect intangible beings and have literally been able to affect the same source of magic as we see in Reflections with Celestia and Luna, it'd make no sense for him to just have turned into shadows when his shadow form literally came from his death in his origin. He even states that the Elements had defeated him, but they weren't enough to completely kill him, within the comics, albeit I do not have the scan directly as the time of writing this.

Don't care about lethality. It was still used for AP to both blast her to the Moon and to overpower her own blast. AP was indeed used, just not to kill.

It wasn't used as AP either, and he was holding back.

So then why doesn't Starlight have a scorch mark on her face after losing a beam battle with Cozy Glow like Celestia does on her horn after losing to Chrysalis in S2? Or Twilight getting hit by Cozy. I know Starlight had one on her back after getting hit earlier in the episode, but it looks like it completely disappeared when it pans to her charging the villains alongside the princesses, so not sure how consistent that one is if it disappears fast.

Simply because there's a lesser gap in AP. That was my entire point in bringing this up, you're just agreeing to my premise by stating this.

It's not nearly as consistent as you claim it is, and frankly, I don't even care if it is. Common sense dictates that if you get hit so hard that you blackout for several seconds, you took damage. Internal damage exists. Not everything has to have a visual indicator of damage. Even in the comics, this isn't
100% consistent.

She didn't black out for several seconds, so that's not an argument, she simply got knocked down and got right back up with nothing ever happening to her outside of being on the ground. Until there's evidence she literally took internal damage (from a magic beam that only hit her side mind you, not a piercing attack, and that kind of damage to cause internal harm would still leave blatant wounds on the person in question), it's consistent with the only time they have these is if there is a massive gap in power. Chrysalis should have been amped with the power of several ponies at that point, and Shining Armor himself, so she would logically have been far stronger than Celestia, especially with how she had easily overpowered her. Twilight and Starlight are both on equal levels and Cozy's only actual scaling is from harming Twilight in the first place, which Twilight mind you shrugs off and then she and her friends defeat her. And regardless, that's one example of an inconsistent mark versus several other cases where an actual notable gap in power results in damage, or where there's an equal amount of power between the two. The Elements obviously don't follow this, so that's why it's even my point in the first place.

Yes. I did. Me having a different interpretation of the scan doesn't mean I didn't watch it. I still stand by that not wanting to fight and fleeing does not mean you are holding yourself back. It's holding back in the sense that you aren't fighting. But it's not holding back in the sense that your durability and AP are lowered.

Holding back your power would logically hold back your strength and power, especially in MLP where you can restrict the power of attacks. This is consistent with the Elements, but with Celestia as a character, who's only ever using her full power when she's needed, or when she's Daybreaker, and otherwise has limits on herself because she's that power. She had an entire redemption arc in IDW over her being powerful and having to understand that, and to hold back with Starswirl, so idk why she would suddenly forget that and not be able to reduce her power or hold back with it, especially as the Elements in context have been shown to do.

She laid there completely motionless for nearly half a minute. She couldn't stop herself from falling. Twilight thought she was seriously injured or worse. If she wasn't knocked out, she did a great job faking it. We arguably even see Celestia appear to wobble to the side for a quick second after standing up.

Celestia was hit in her wing and knocked to the ground, and then collides with it. SHe's obviously going to have trouble standing up when she's been hit in her wing, and subsequently lands on her side, but she clearly isn't blacked out, she only struggles getting up. People in fiction and even in basic combat get knocked down, and they evidently aren't blacked out for several seconds, especially when they get right up, so idk why we're only applying this to MLP when that's not even something implied or shown, just Celestia knocked to the ground and struggling to get up because she was hit on a weakspot of hers.

Never meant to say it does. The point I was trying to make was it calls her credibility into question. Something to consider when reading into her claim about being the strongest with the Elements.

It doesn't at all call her credibility into question, especially with her info about the Elements. All you're bringing up is how she doesn't know her own power, not the power of the Elements that she, as a clone of Twilight, has researched most of her life.

If by overpowered, you mean "Sat there letting it happen instead of fighting it with her magic like last time", then sure.

The fact that she was affected by it in the first place rather than it 'struggling' with her alone is against that. If the Elements are always at this power level, it should have had trouble affecting her simply because of how magic works in-verse, but it does not. Is this not blatantly showing that she isn't at that level, unless the Elements were explicitly able to hold back their power? The only supporting feat is Luna defending against Celestia who's explicitly trying to not damage or hurt her sister, so it makes no sense to argue that it's AP when she isn't trying to do that in the first place, whereas Twilight clearly isn't holding back as much, nor does she have a reason to outside of knowing it's Celestia's sister, and with an attack that's supposed to bring her back to her form doing more of an effect than the initial blast did. That alone blatantly shows a difference in power when holding back, and given that the Elements when unrestricted don't always do damage on this scale, notably with the portal to limbo, it makes no sense for her to scale to the full power that was used by Sci-Twi or Sombra.

From the video? I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to interpret "We need the Elements to take out Chrysalis" as. Right there she says she thinks she needs the Elements to beat Chrysalis, then proceeds to almost win against her. How is that not underestimating herself? Yet again, she thinks she needs the Elements, then almost wins without them.

And she isn't overestimating the Elements, she knows they're the strongest artifacts and as she's underestimating her own power, she believes that she can instead use the Elements.

Well, yeah, but wasn't she just taking the force of the rock exploding? I'm relatively certain the rock isn't going to explode with the same power as the beam.

If the rock is being given the same amount of energy that their power should, if you want to argue that it never varies and is always at that power level, she's tanking energy on that level, which is blatantly not what's happening. It's more consistent to say that the Elements vary in power than saying it's an outlier for multiple characters to tank the blast of the EoH with little to no actual damage.

They look barely above their own heights worth in the air, let alone multiple meters. Doubt that's gonna give them a headache. Depends on how they land I guess, but we don't see. I feel they'd be in different positions if they landed on their heads or in another similar way.

I already pointed out why the headache even happens, and them falling is the reason they're in the position. Adagio and the other sirens are blatantly pulled back from the sound, and it's a direct counter to their own singing, which is why them being hit by what's essentially a beam made of the same sound that causes them to cringe would more likely cause a headache, than them having the durability to tank the Elements if they were always on that AP level, or assume they land on their head and completely shift their position.

Paraphrasing was all it was intended to be. The primary reason I worded it that way was because of this statement, which in my opinion was referring to the same power. Infinite power for destruction. Breaking worlds. Able to alter the fabric of reality. All this was taken together, and I wound up paraphrasing based on what I was reading, and the context I thought it was being used. I figured a little paraphrasing would be harmless, especially since it wouldn't even be the reason for tier 2 Stygian. But if it needs removal, then fine.

I don't even mind for the feat being used, but it's not a supportive feat. If anything, they should just become 3-C from it.

High 3-A comes from statements of infinite power for destruction and affecting infinite amounts of light and spreading infinite amounts of Shadow if the plan succeeds. He'd be generating infinite shadow and devouring infinite amounts of light in a finite timeframe assuming he's not immortal and thus on a time limit.

This was commented above, which was essentially just this: Stygian, as we see, doesn't age. The other pillars aged up until being sent to limbo, but after they leave it, their bodies never physically age after the years, most notably Rockhoof who is still a young pony, and how Stygian hasn't aged up at all in the original timeline even after years, alongside how we see Mistmane, who's plant magic that takes away from her lifeforce and is the main reason magic is based upon life force, now does it as a full time job. This shows us that they don't age anymore, and as the Pony of Shadows is blatantly aware that there are more of him, it is more likely that he would never truly die and neither would the Princesses, whether it'd have to continue in the form of another PoS or otherwise by themselves. The PoS doesn't generate shadows, either, he's just destroying all sources of light.

Additionally, I actually found this. The PoS is confirmed an immortal enemy nonetheless, thus he shouldn't be High 3-A because he isn't doing this across a finite period of time, but rather across an infinite period of time, which is consistent with it literally being stated to be doing it one by one.

How is it "not the same"? Based on what is it not the same? Where is this supposed difference even coming from? I need elaboration. This is why I thought you were arguing semantics. At first glance, there appears to be no difference, and I've seen nothing to explain said difference.

An infinite power of destruction refers to the capacity of power needed for destruction. I actually said this in one of my earlier comments, albeit after your response.

It's pretty blatantly much longer than that of the Stygian we know. Hair growth is a sign of age happening. It's not a major sign, but it's still a sign that biological functions like age still affect Stygian as the Pony of Shadows.

This is an alternate universe Stygian who never went to limbo, aka he can age unlike main universe.

How is he a living void? He's living shadow and darkness. Not pure void. I don't remember that anywhere. Anyways, this thing couldn't even do anything until it got Stygian as a host, so it stands to reason, that if Stygian were to die, the shadow would need to find a new host.

Being living darkness would contain that, especially when he's been called it too. Irregardless, the Pony of Shadows has two ponies in front of him and entirely new realities that he could find a host. That's pretty blatantly going to let it live forever.

Once again, you do not know this, and so I'm taking what I saw in the episode as what I believe is the safer option.

We literally see that in the episode, with how the Pillars are literally the source of the Elements, and how they literally only needed their power because the EoH can't naturally make that portal.

They were using the Elements up until Twilight dived in, then stopped blasting in the middle of their conversation. Then, they reactivated the Elements to pull Stygian out.

Ok? You just reworded exactly what I said. She dived in, and they suddenly stopped because she did so in the first place.

That's my whole point. If neither he nor the princess has literal infinite power, then there's no possible way for them to affect an infinite number of realities in a finite timeframe unless they have infinite speed. Which the Pony of Shadows did not focus on, rather their power.

It's not a finite timeframe, so this isn't relevant anymore.

A punch can exert both AP and lifting strength at the same time as demonstrated whenever you punch something small and knock it backward. Demonstrating lifting strength doesn't suddenly negate the kinetic energy that comes with the punch. Likewise, a beam can blast something back and still exert lifting strength and cause pain through AP, much like the Elements of Harmony did to the Pony of Shadows.

Cool, I don't see why this applies to a verse where magic literally doesn't show that property unless the users want it to. There's telekinesis which literally does the exact opposite of what you're describing, or about almost every time an object has been blasted by a laser that hasn't knocked it back, and instead only hit them. The only cases I can think of where this has been applied is with shit like Celestia being knocked by the blast from Nightmare Moon, which even in context was not her being launched back by the attack but rather the attack hitting her wing and knocking her to the ground because she was thrown off balance.

Didn't sound like a hiss when I watched it.

I don't know how you heard anything but that.

I never said he had to regenerate his entire body. We've never seen Discord take damage from being blasted by the Elements, so how much damage they;d cause to him with intent to harm is entirely unknown

So there was never an intent to harm, and he never takes damage as thus.

I know that, but I also know he read notes from a guy who's lived with them since fillyhood. If this were just stereotypical bravado that stemmed from nowhere, I'd be inclined to believe you, but it's not, and he has reason to believe what he believes about the sisters and their power.

And he has an addiction to their power and he literally exaggerates their power to threaten other ponies.

 

[Antvasima]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Phoenks @DarkDragonMedeus @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Lightbuster30 @Firestorm808

Would you be willing to read the discussion from where you left off and help out here please?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Why am I being tagged? I thought I made it clear I didn't want to keep up the arguments? I have energy for a lot of things, and this isn't one of them. This stuff is draining once you do it long enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate. I can obviously relate to getting tired from constant maintenance work though.