Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)

[Overlord775]

There's was nor matte nor spirit, so they only thing that their bodies could have been made of is the concept itself

 

[Kepekley23]

They created matter, not time and space. Arceus was the one who did that:

• Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were bor...That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise

Dialga and Palkia are embodiments of Arceus' creation, and the trio was created in order to bind time and space:

• The Original One breathed alone before the universe came. When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate. The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate. Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space. Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world."

 

[Overlord775]

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make.

Time started to spin. Space began to expand."

The plates are simply not put in chronological order

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That only tells us that they have no physical body in their original form. Again, non-corporeality.

So, what is the difference then? Being fair here, im referring to this:

"BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature

Disembodied Thought is Type 1 because he's a tought

Dr. Gii is Type 1 because he's a possibility

Lucetta Quetzl is Type 1 because she's a song"

I dont see what really any different betweeen this and Dialga/Palkia. Especially from what the anime gave us.

 

[Everything12]

The Three beings are the Lake Guardians actually, the binding Space and Time thing is when they calm down Palkia and Dialga, the version in the OP

"From itself, two beings the Original One did make.

Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

From itself again, three living things the Original One did make."

Points to the opposite case of Space and Time coming about because of the advent of their birth.

 

[Kepekley23]

Type 1 is:

• Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Type 2 is:

• Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

The absolute most I can see for them is Type 2. They definitely don't qualify for Type 1.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes

But even with this, people can still argue with "Dialga can affect people who hold no Time space concept!" instead of treat this as an Anti feat

Even if i don't like the former, it can easily be accepted as such in the wiki.

Cough Cough

 

[PaChi2]

There's was nor matte nor spirit, so they only thing that their bodies could have been made of is the concept itself

Or... Time... And... Space... Which is what they embody?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>Unconscious blobs in their true forms

Completely unproven

And not a single thing said by me was addressed. Just Kukui or Nia while what I said was just "I didn't change my mind"

 

[Overlord775]

@Kep

They actually do have type 1 showing, funnily enought in the Jewel of life, since the second coming of Arceus wasn't erased from time and nobody loss memory of the pre-time fix event

also

Type 1 is:

• Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

The most important point is the first, not being able to be interacted with is the consequance

and the CT as shown Here fits the description

also to answer your previous qustion, the CT would scale to the Lake Trio

@PaChi

Being made of time and space is Type 1 Abtract Existance

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Or... Time... And... Space... Which is what they embody?

How can you embody something without a physical form?

 

[Kepekley23]

People. None of that is Type 1.

Type 1 implies the CT can not be affected at all without directly affecting time and space as concepts. Never happened and they are definitely not this type.

Type 2 implies that permanently destroying the CT requires destroying the concepts they embody. That might be the case, but they wouldn't be able to regenerate based on their concept, either. If someone destroyed their forms they would be incapable of regenerating or resurrecting without outside help, which makes me iffy on them having this type.

 

[PaChi2]

"Being made of time and space is Type 1 Abtract Existance"

You see, when you imply that Dialga and Palkia are conceptual beings with type 1 AE you are saying that the only way to affect them is to affect directly the actual concept of time and space.

When you say that Dialga and palkia are conceptual beings with type 2 AE you are saying that the only way to kill them is to destroy the concept of time and space, but to affect them you just need the ability to affect time/space.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Never have I once said you had to destroy the concept of time and space. Just that you had to destroy time and space as a whole to destroy them. Because there are several instances in the core games, not even the anime, manga, or spinoffs, where capturing or defeating one of them does shit-all to the collective.

 

[Overlord775]

@Kep

Because their true forms were never shown on screen beside that scene in the anime, where they were forced in to physical forms by the red chains to be controlled

all other showings are their physical forms

@PaChi

Giratina is stated to be outside the concepts of time and space , so Dialga and Palkia are logically the concepts

 

[Kepekley23]

Let's put it this way.

If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And people haven't even addressed the Lake Trio stuff, where they're outright stated to have created in people what they're the beings of. Azelf, the being of willpower, created willpower when it started flying, which it literally has always done. And I highly doubt that the Creation Trio, who are made by Arceus slightly prior to the Lake Trio, are functionally different to the vastly inferior Lake Trio.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let's put it this way.

If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

False. The true form straight up poops out a Dialga for Lucas to catch in Platinum, and still persists if Lucas defeats it.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

I'm neutral with everything except for Soulhax immunity, which is what I agree on.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Giratina is a ghost type, therefore it is a spiritual being GG.

I agree with them getting Abstract Existence. People aren't confusing Non-Corporeality for Abstract Existence btw, they're drawing the fact that Dialga and Palkia are clearly non-physical in their natural forms. If they're associated as heavily as they are with their respective concepts and clearly are non-physical, I don't see why they wouldn't have it. At worst, this would warrant a "likely".

I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation as well, that's pretty cut and dry. Assalt's original reasoning made absolutely no sense to remove it to begin with.

Neutral on them being Type 2 Concepts.

 

[PaChi2]

False. The true form straight up poops out a Dialga for Lucas to catch in Platinum, and still persists if Lucas defeats it.

Out of curiosity, how can you consider that when anyone defeating the Creation Trio is considered PIS.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

That's like a decent amount of Legendaries if you defeat them, go through the Elite 4 and Champion, they sometimes respawn like the Swords of Justice IIRC.

The fact there are multiple versions of CT members would already support this though so the point is moot for whoever tries to argue against it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@PaChi. I don't claim PIS. Anti feats are anti feats. Same as the cosmic level Zach Fair getting killed by bullets. The feats of them being lesser happened and people need to deal with it. It doesn't lower their power just like Superman's lower feats don't do the same.

 

[Kepekley23]

Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

 

[Overlord775]

Let's put it this way.
If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

The true form is sentient, so it just pops out another avatar in that case

also as shown by Arceus making physical duplicate of CT in the manga, the physical forms even have the same memories

also nobody is saying that the physical forms are abtract too

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

Except the text outright says that Dialga disappears into thin air if defeated.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Then what's your derivative of multiple Dialgas exactly?

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

@Ploz, obviously there is one Dialga per universe, he only exists alongside helps sustain time, he no longer is the embodiment of time, he clearly is only 4-B like the other Legendaries because all of his feats are just coincidental side effects of him and Palkia fighting while sustaining space-time. /s

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

Considering that no other legendary (to my knowledge) respawns after they're defeated by the player, this isn't game mechanics. Also, what Cal said.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, some come back to where they left. Most of them just run or teleport away.

 

[PaChi2]

@Kukui

From the top of my head Ho-oH respawns after you defeat the league.

Not arguing against what you say. Just pointing that out.

 

[Everything12]

Doesn't Ho-oh have the resurrection Phoenix thing with the Beast Trio and Sacred Ash.

 

[PaChi2]

@Ploz, obviously there is one Dialga per universe, he only exists alongside helps sustain time, he no longer is the embodiment of time, he clearly is only 4-B like the other Legendaries because all of his feats are just coincidental side effects of him and Palkia fighting while sustaining space-time. /s

Everything you said is correct, no need for /s.

Now try being constructive, okay?

 

[The_Causality]

This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn when you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. There's a reason I'm being as polite as I possibly can be because I don't want to further lower the opinion people have on Pokémon fans. I'm trying my damnedest to be polite even if I wanna be snarky to some responses. Also helps that I like everyone here.

 

[Overlord775]

This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn we you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

Arceus's event wasn't ever released, so it's not even canon

Giratina repawns, you just need to go thought the entrance to the distortion world in that one labyrinth cave

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn we you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

What? Arceus just dissolved his avatar when defeated in the event, and it's implied he's testing you anyway. Giratina is the same. Every other legendary screws off some way or another. They either run or fly or teleport.

 

[The_Causality]

Arceus's event wasn't ever released, so it's not even canon

Giratina repawns, you just need to go thought the entrance to the distortion world in that one labyrynth cave

He respawn only two time, if you defeat him in the cave, you can no longer see him again. this show the pinaccle of a game mechanic.

So official event accessible in-game can be non canaon? i highly doubt of it.

 

[PaChi2]

Yeah. There's a reason I'm being as polite as I possibly can be because I don't want to further lower the opinion people have on Pokémon fans. I'm trying my damnedest to be polite even if I wanna be snarky to some responses. Also helps that I like everyone here.

We like you too.

 

[The_Causality]

What? Arceus just dissolved his avatar when defeated in the event, and it's implied he's testing you anyway. Giratina is the same. Every other legendary screws off some way or another. They either run or fly or teleport.

So? "Arceus dissolved his avatar" is also headcanon, i don't see how the fact that Dialga and Palkia respawn is due to them being abstract instaed of a game mechanic, by your logic, Giratina isn't abstract due to him not coming back everytime you defeat him.