Saiyan Saga Tiers Speed Downgrade

[TheRiddler60]

Dragonball Saiyan Saga Tiers speed are calced at Relativistic for Roshi and Piccolo feat

Yet there are anti feats of characters with lower travel speeds reacting to these beams and flying faster than them

For starts Goku max speed running and flying after king kai training is Mach 30 for snakeway feat of finishing in 24 hours

Raditz who is weaker than Saiyan Saga Post Kai Goku and was able to outrun Goku's Kamehameha

https://imgur.com/a/mNnCTng 1- Piccolo is able to move past Nappa's Ki blast attack before it hits Gohan

2- Gohan and Krillin are able to move as fast as their beams on Namek against guldo

3- Gohan and Krillin are able to move Vegeta out of harms way before Recoome's energy beam hits them implying Gohan and krillins travel speed is faster here

Relativistic beam speed feats seems like a high ball for Saiyan Saga Tiers when characters with MHS travel speed have easily moved passed them. Roshi and piccolo beam speed seem like Outliers in speed department.

 

[Akreious]

"Yet there are anti feats of characters with lower travel speeds reacting to these beams and flying faster than them"

Travel Speed =/= Reaction/Combat Speed

"For starts Goku max speed running and flying after king kai training is Mach 30 for snakeway feat of finishing in 24 hours"

This has been a literal meme in the community since forever, why're you treating it as if it's truth? Plus this is horribly slow compared to past feats such as Tao Pai Pai's Mach 14 throwing feat. Are you implying that Goku is barely 2x faster than Tao Pai Pai as of Saiyan Saga?

"Raditz who is weaker than Saiyan Saga Post Kai Goku and was able to outrun Goku's Kamehameha"

Speed feat for Raditz...?

"Piccolo is able to move past Nappa's Ki blast attack before it hits Gohan"

Speed... feat?

"Gohan and Krillin are able to move as fast as their beams on Namek against guldo"

People have been controlling the speed of their beams since forever. Heck, Goku was flying with Kamehamehas on his feet in Dragon Ball.

"Gohan and Krillin are able to move Vegeta out of harms way before Recoome's energy beam hits them implying Gohan and krillins travel speed is faster here"

This isn't travel speed. It's Reaction/Combat speed. Travel Speed is how fast someone can travel in a straight line over X Distance. Reaction and Combat speed are bursts of speed that are almost always faster than Travel Speed.

"Relativistic beam speed feats seems like a high ball for Saiyan Saga Tiers when characters with MHS travel speed have easily moved passed them. "

People with MHS Travel Speed has existed since mid-OG Dragon Ball. This statement here means that you don't believe that, since mid-OG Dragon Ball, our characters haven't gotten what? 100x faster? 1000x? Even early Roshi was casually patting bullets out of the air as if they're nothing.

"Roshi and piccolo beam speed seem like Outliers in speed department."

Or how about all the things you've posted are either outliers or leaves out context?

 

[TheRiddler60]

"Yet there are anti feats of characters with lower travel speeds reacting to these beams and flying faster than them"

Travel Speed =/= Reaction/Combat Speed

"For starts Goku max speed running and flying after king kai training is Mach 30 for snakeway feat of finishing in 24 hours"

This has been a literal meme in the community since forever, why're you treating it as if it's truth? Plus this is horribly slow compared to past feats such as Tao Pai Pai's Mach 14 throwing feat. Are you implying that Goku is barely 2x faster than Tao Pai Pai as of Saiyan Saga?

"Raditz who is weaker than Saiyan Saga Post Kai Goku and was able to outrun Goku's Kamehameha"

Speed feat for Raditz...?

"Piccolo is able to move past Nappa's Ki blast attack before it hits Gohan"

Speed... feat?

"Gohan and Krillin are able to move as fast as their beams on Namek against guldo"

People have been controlling the speed of their beams since forever. Heck, Goku was flying with Kamehamehas on his feet in Dragon Ball.

"Gohan and Krillin are able to move Vegeta out of harms way before Recoome's energy beam hits them implying Gohan and krillins travel speed is faster here"

This isn't travel speed. It's Reaction/Combat speed. Travel Speed is how fast someone can travel in a straight line over X Distance. Reaction and Combat speed are bursts of speed that are almost always faster than Travel Speed.

"Relativistic beam speed feats seems like a high ball for Saiyan Saga Tiers when characters with MHS travel speed have easily moved passed them. "

People with MHS Travel Speed has existed since mid-OG Dragon Ball. This statement here means that you don't believe that, since mid-OG Dragon Ball, our characters haven't gotten what? 100x faster? 1000x? Even early Roshi was casually patting bullets out of the air as if they're nothing.

"Roshi and piccolo beam speed seem like Outliers in speed department."

Or how about all the things you've posted are either outliers or leaves out context?

Krillin and Gohan feat of flying to Vegeta and grabbing him the. Flying away before the blast reaches them is a travel speed feat not a combat speed feat.

For example Goku destroying something with a Ki blast in a time span would be combat speed. Raditz running away from a Ki blast for a short period of time is a travel speed feat. https://m.imgur.com/a/mNnCTng

Everyone in Saiyan Saga scales to Goku running snakeway speed for Mach 30

So that means character with Mach 30 scaling can outspeed and fly faster than these "so called relativistic attacks" so Saiyan Saga Attack speed should be downgraded to Massively Hypersonic which fits the scaling for 23rd Budokai as well.

 

[The_Calaca]

Let's not note that Goku didn't fly above the snake's back during the 24hs but ignored the curves and loops, meaning that he flew a much smaller distance in 24hs. Mach 33 is wank as well

 

[Akreious]

"Krillin and Gohan feat of flying to Vegeta and grabbing him the. Flying away before the blast reaches them is a travel speed feat not a combat speed feat."

Which also circles around to the fact that characters can regulate and control the speed of their blasts and such.

"For example Goku destroying something with a Ki blast in a time span would be combat speed. Raditz running away from a Ki blast for a short period of time is a travel speed feat."

The few scans you showed with that link had the characters using their 100% powers to keep up with the beam, and notably krillin and Gohan flying to Vegeta had Gohan visibly barely make it - Especially since Gohan actually started closer to Vegeta.

"Everyone in Saiyan Saga scales to Goku running snakeway speed for Mach 30"

Which is utter downplay due to Tao Pai Pai casually doing a Mach 14 feat. What you're insinuating is that among so many upgrades in their Tiers and Speed, that they're barely above 2x faster than Tao Pai Pai was.

Also again, Travel Speed =/= Combat/Burst Speed. Travelling a short distance almost like a leap is burst speed. Going from Planet to Planet or city to city is travel speed.

"So that means character with Mach 30 scaling can outspeed and fly faster than these "so called relativistic attacks" so Saiyan Saga Attack speed should be downgraded to Massively Hypersonic which fits the scaling for 23rd Budokai as well."

For your logic to be correct, we'd also have to throw out Piccolo's 5-B Moon-busting Calc. Also Goku's Mach 30 has been considered an outlier since forever,

The rest of your so-called Anti-Feats are unquantifiable as all hell. Krillin and Gohan moving faster than beams? Not an Anti-Feat. Raditz outrunning Goku's Kamehameha? Not an anti-feat. Those are feats for them. An Anti-Feat is only an Anti-Feat if it's quantifiable and directly contradicts what we're told/calculated.

Literally the only Anti-Feat here is Goku going Mach 30 which is directly contradicted by Goku curbstomping Tao Pai Pai who performed Mach 14 in Mid-Dragon Ball let alone beginning of Z.

Going by this, we have 2 Relativistic/Moon Busting feats against 1 Mach 30 feat. 2 > 1, therefore mach 30 is the outlier here.

 

[TheRiddler60]

I'll wait to see what kep or one of the staff thinks

 

[TheRiddler60]

"Krillin and Gohan feat of flying to Vegeta and grabbing him the. Flying away before the blast reaches them is a travel speed feat not a combat speed feat."

Which also circles around to the fact that characters can regulate and control the speed of their blasts and such.

"For example Goku destroying something with a Ki blast in a time span would be combat speed. Raditz running away from a Ki blast for a short period of time is a travel speed feat."

The few scans you showed with that link had the characters using their 100% powers to keep up with the beam, and notably krillin and Gohan flying to Vegeta had Gohan visibly barely make it - Especially since Gohan actually started closer to Vegeta.

"Everyone in Saiyan Saga scales to Goku running snakeway speed for Mach 30"

Which is utter downplay due to Tao Pai Pai casually doing a Mach 14 feat. What you're insinuating is that among so many upgrades in their Tiers and Speed, that they're barely above 2x faster than Tao Pai Pai was.

Also again, Travel Speed =/= Combat/Burst Speed. Travelling a short distance almost like a leap is burst speed. Going from Planet to Planet or city to city is travel speed.

"So that means character with Mach 30 scaling can outspeed and fly faster than these "so called relativistic attacks" so Saiyan Saga Attack speed should be downgraded to Massively Hypersonic which fits the scaling for 23rd Budokai as well."

For your logic to be correct, we'd also have to throw out Piccolo's 5-B Moon-busting Calc. Also Goku's Mach 30 has been considered an outlier since forever,

The rest of your so-called Anti-Feats are unquantifiable as all hell. Krillin and Gohan moving faster than beams? Not an Anti-Feat. Raditz outrunning Goku's Kamehameha? Not an anti-feat. Those are feats for them. An Anti-Feat is only an Anti-Feat if it's quantifiable and directly contradicts what we're told/calculated.

Literally the only Anti-Feat here is Goku going Mach 30 which is directly contradicted by Goku curbstomping Tao Pai Pai who performed Mach 14 in Mid-Dragon Ball let alone beginning of Z.

Going by this, we have 2 Relativistic/Moon Busting feats against 1 Mach 30 feat. 2 > 1, therefore mach 30 is the outlier here.

Piccolo would still be Moon Level for destroying moon but his attack speed would be downgraded and everyone else also downgraded in terms of speed

Also piccolo feat is faster than majority of later DBZ speed feats. It's the most impressive feat in the series before Gotenks flying around earth feat. So it seems like that feat would be a Outlier instead of Krillin and Gohan flying faster than Recoome Ki blast being a Outlier. Piccolo feat is so early in series and no one even on Namek should anywhere close to that speed when it comes to attack Beam speeds. You guys saying Saiyan Saga Tiers attack's travel over 300,000 km in seconds right ? Then Raditz wouldn't be able to put Run a Attack speed of this level. Piccolo wouldn't be able to run in front of Gohan before Nappa Attack hit him. Gohan and Krillin wouldn't be able to rescue Vegeta before Recoome Attack hit them. Krillin is even able to hit Recoome in the face before his attack hits Vegeta, even tho Recoome had already fire the blast before krillin and Gohan even moved to rescue Vegeta. Seems like piccolo feat for speed is a Outlier.


snakeway feat is Mach 30 and Namek Gohan and Krillin scale to this. So you cant say it's outlier for the sake of winning an argument in your favor. If Goku was any faster than that he would've made it back to earth in a short time. Gohan and Krillin travel speed is faster than Recoome energy Ki blast. Raditz can outrun Goku Kamehameha proving the beam speed isn't relativistic. If it were truly was Relativistic the blast would've tagged him before he can run off since he scales to Mach 30 travel speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Akreious, this is just the fallacy against flight speed/travel speed vs Combat speed. Their Attack speed, combat speed, and reaction speed is Relativistic scaling from Piccolo's feat.

 

[Js250476]

Also it's generally advised to not quote large posts on this wiki.

 

[TheRiddler60]

I agree with Akreious, this is just the fallacy against flight speed/travel speed vs Combat speed. Their Attack speed, combat speed, and reaction speed is Relativistic scaling from Piccolo's feat.

But the problem is when it isn't just combat speed anymore

Raditz clearly out ran a kemahemaha fron Goku. Even if majority is voting it isn't a Outlier you can't possibly try to say Raditz doing that was combat speed when it's shown to be travel speed. They scale to match 30 Goku which isn't Outlier.

Also krillin and Gohan flying faster than Recoome beam who is stronger than them would also imply travel speed. If a person moves someone out of the way from a bullet is called travel speed. If a person is attacking someone at a certain level of speed it's called combat speed.

 

[The_Calaca]

Still ignoring the Mach 1K feat in the 23rd Tournament.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And it's not an outlier, these characters are casual planet busters which was far better than their previous Country busting from the original Dragon Ball. It is 100% combat speed; Short step flights are combat speed. And they have multiple feats way above Mach 30 even before Saiyan Saga.

 

[Akreious]

"Piccolo would still be Moon Level for destroying moon but his attack speed would be downgraded and everyone else also downgraded in terms of speed"

The feat hinges on timeframe, so no.

"Also piccolo feat is faster than majority of later DBZ speed feats. "

Which includes quantifiable ones such as...?

" It's the most impressive feat in the series before Gotenks flying around earth feat."

Gotenks did that utterly casually and even had a nap.

" So it seems like that feat would be a Outlier instead of Krillin and Gohan flying faster than Recoome Ki blast being a Outlier."

Literally the only Anti-Feat you have is Mach 30 Goku which is more of an outlier since there's 2 relativistic feats that we have and at worst, 1 relativistic feat so it's 1 feat vs 1 anti-feat; you do not have anti-feats numerical advantage.

"Piccolo feat is so early in series and no one even on Namek should anywhere close to that speed when it comes to attack Beam speeds."

And you know that how? Literally every fight is cinematic-timed so we can view it. Remember how Krillin and Roshi had an entire match in a single second or how Goku and Freeza fought for like 10 episodes and yet it all happened in 5 minutes?

"You guys saying Saiyan Saga Tiers attack's travel over 300,000 km in seconds right ? Then Raditz wouldn't be able to put Run a Attack speed of this level."

By what logic? It means Raditz is Relativistic/SoL level. It's a feat for Raditz, not an Anti-Feat. Your literal argument is "He just can't".

" Piccolo wouldn't be able to run in front of Gohan before Nappa Attack hit him."

Again, by what metric? Who're you to say he can't?

"Gohan and Krillin wouldn't be able to rescue Vegeta before Recoome Attack hit them."

Refer to above

"Krillin is even able to hit Recoome in the face before his attack hits Vegeta, even tho Recoome had already fire the blast before krillin and Gohan even moved to rescue Vegeta."

Who are you to say what characters can and cannot do? Literally all of this is your opinion and none of it are Anti-Feats.

The rest of your message is both headcanon and is opinion. If characters are shown to move at comparable speeds relative to the beams, they're that fast. It's a feat for those characters, not an Anti-Feat.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, the word "Anti-feat" is a really poor choice of words. It's "Low end feat" because far too many people don't know what the word "Anti-Feat" actually means. An "Anti-Feat" is what you call something that's not a feat at all. And the Low End feat is just PIS and only would hamper flight speed, not combat speed.

 

[TheRiddler60]

Akerious are you blind

I literally posted a scan of Krillin and Gohan flying faster than the speed of Recoome blast before it hits Vegeta and Raditz running speed capable to running away from Goku's Kamehameha which you claim is 10% of light scaling from a Outlier speed moon feat from piccolo when a even stronger Goku is only Mach 30 for snakeway

Snakeway debunks any theory that Saiyan Saga travel speed or flying speed is faster than MHS. Krillin and Gohan flying speed is faster than Recoome blast.

Your whole counter is using feats from Dragonball when I am referring to DBZ Saiyan Saga. Dragonball and z aren't even in same league god tiers of Dragonball only small country level while Goku and piccolo beginning of DBZ are moon level lol big gap and irrelevant to bringing up Dragonball mercenary Tao. Isn't that against the rules of logic fallacy.

Like I said Goku in Saiyan Saga is Mach 30 flying speed

Namek Gohan and Krillin scale to same Goku and were able to fly faster than Recoome blast

Mach 30 flying speed is more consistent

People use piccolo Outlier moon feat to scale for the entire Saiyan saga which is false to do since piccolo moon feat actually contradicts speed level attacks later in the series Recoome being example, Piccolo moving past Nappa blast is example, Raditz out running Kamehameha is example. You've got more anti feats for relativistic than actual speed feats for Relativistic in Saiyan Saga.

Imagine showing fodder Tier in the verse blowing up a moon in seconds in the first few chapters Then showing Goku being Mach 30 flying speed Then later krillin and Gohan speedblitzing Recoome Attack beam just by flying past it

It seems you keep confusing combat speed with travel speed

If you have super speed right

A gunman has kidnapped a woman and is standing 20 feet away from her with a gun. If he shoots the bullet and you leave after the bullet is fired and move the girl out of the way before the bullet hits, despite the bullet having a head start on you due to the bullet taking off before you. This is considered travel speed kids.

And

 

[FanofRPGs]

Anti-feat makes it clear where these arguments came from, but I don't want to divulge in cross-site drama Also, remember that a while skirmish in the 21st BT took 0.2 seconds. Raditz did one simple sidestep to dodge the Makankasappo which they could barely keep track of an reached a mountain range in that short amount of time. I calced it before and got triple-quadruple digit Mach speeds as a low end

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, the OP sounds way too familiar to the various socks who've been downplaying early Dragon Ball saga as of late.

 

[Akreious]

I would respond to your entire wall but I can sum up my message in just a few words:

Your entire basis of argument hinges on entirely fallacious points and opinion pieces that are directly contradicted in-verse and saying characters can't do X thing "just cuz".

 

[Amexim]

Just a thing;

Combat speed isn't short burst speed. It's how fast you can fight. Travel speed counts as ANY distance traversed via full body movement or flight. Even if Goku only sprinted for a 20th of a second, the distance he travels in that time is still him running from point a to point b.

But nevermind that shitty ass nitpick against Ak. He's generally correct. But he's being too soft.

Maybe, instead, we should point out things all over fiction that are handwaved as PIS, bad writing, bad showings, and overall just the writers not knowing how strong they made their characters. This absolutely bad definition of combat speed is the VSB community bending over to appease people who lack the ability to swallow their pride and ignore it when Superman can't save everyone from a barrage of bullets, or when Sasuke throws a Kunai at the speed of sound as if that's impressive. Or, even worse, thanks to Death Battle, when Goku flies across Snake Way slower than Piccolo's casual beams reach the moon and back. Fiction is inconsistent like that, worse, fictional creators don't understand what they're doing when they introduce feats. Our job is to calculate them and rate them using physics to be as objective as possible about how strong they are. By this guy's nitpicking logic, Goku isn't even Planet Level. Ever. When has he destroyed a planet more often than not amirite?

Someone close this.

 

[TheRiddler60]

To the guy up there ^ ^ ^

https://m.imgur.com/a/mjzfGVJ

I personally believe they are planet level just not Relativistic speed

I literally posted a scan of Krillin and Gohan flying faster than the speed of Recoome blast before it hits Vegeta and Raditz running speed capable to running away from Goku's Kamehameha which you claim is 10% of light scaling from a Outlier speed moon feat from piccolo when a even stronger Goku is only Mach 30 for snakeway

Snakeway debunks any theory that Saiyan Saga travel speed or flying speed is faster than MHS. Krillin and Gohan flying speed is faster than Recoome blast.

Your whole counter is using feats from Dragonball when I am referring to DBZ Saiyan Saga. Dragonball and z aren't even in same league god tiers of Dragonball only small country level while Goku and piccolo beginning of DBZ are moon level lol big gap and irrelevant to bringing up Dragonball mercenary Tao. Isn't that against the rules of logic fallacy.

Like I said Goku in Saiyan Saga is Mach 30 flying speed

Namek Gohan and Krillin scale to same Goku and were able to fly faster than Recoome blast

Mach 30 flying speed is more consistent

People use piccolo Outlier moon feat to scale for the entire Saiyan saga which is false to do since piccolo moon feat actually contradicts speed level attacks later in the series Recoome being example, Piccolo moving past Nappa blast is example, Raditz out running Kamehameha is example. You've got more anti feats for relativistic than actual speed feats for Relativistic in Saiyan Saga.

Imagine showing fodder Tier in the verse blowing up a moon in seconds in the first few chapters Then showing Goku being Mach 30 flying speed Then later krillin and Gohan speedblitzing Recoome Attack beam just by flying past it

It seems you keep confusing combat speed with travel speed

If you have super speed right

A gunman has kidnapped a woman and is standing 20 feet away from her with a gun. If he shoots the bullet and you leave after the bullet is fired and move the girl out of the way before the bullet hits, despite the bullet having a head start on you due to the bullet taking off before you. This is considered travel speed kids.


And

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will close this thread, it's getting chaotic again.