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In lack of a better option, I guess that's fine.
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I'd just make it a note on the verse page tbh.
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I guess that's a way to do it. I'd really rather come to a conclusion, but I guess that hasn't worked out much.
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- #165
Got any ideas on where exactly to chuck that?
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Just make a "Notes" tabber on the Calculations part of the verse page and it should be good.
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On this, I'd remind that not everyone should be Supersonic+ as minimal speed, but some also should be Hypersonic from scaling above Knight Knight (as the gap is only x1.14 over the Mach 4.4 feat), with those characters being:
- Undyne
- Mettaton (in EX and NEO)
- Asgore
- Toriel
- Frisk with Great Determination
- All the Amalgamates that aren't Snowdrake's Mother
- Flowey in his base form
- Sans' base speed
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- #168
Why? Like, what is the evidence of each of those having significantly superior speed to earlier characters?
I think this one would be a particularly easy fight, since the Sea Tea stuff blatantly fails our standards on Multipliers. Its literal only source is an uncited claim from another wiki lmao.
If you want me to make another thread for that, I understand, but I'd rather not apply it in that state if I'd look to undo it very quickly. I'd prefer just holding off on applying this thread.
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We talk of like 14% more lmao.
Besides it's well known that Frisk's speed increases the more Determined they are, as we see that weaker monsters are Subsonic+, Photoshop Flowey completely blitzed Frisk (best evidence for more DT = more speed) and then God tiers have Immeasurable.
It wouldn't make sense for Frisk not be more determined against stronger monsters compared with fodder ones.
Agnaa, not only it's currently accepted, but it's also being impacted from this thread. You cannot just pretend it does not exist.
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- #170
14% more still needs evidence.
Other parts of a series having a stat jump does not mean that parts in-between with zero evidence would have a stat jump. Especially when part of that evidence is jumping to Immeasurable. And especially when those stat jumps are implicitly deduced via calcs of enemies encountered, rather than stated amps they could be expected to regularly acquire.
I thought my post was pretty clear. My suggestion isn't "pretend it doesn't exist", it's either:
- Discuss its merit here.
- Discuss its merit in another thread.
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You're implying that Sans and Photoshop Flowey are just as fast as a Tsunderplane, come the **** on.
Photoshop Flowey IS evidence as I said, he literally blitzed the less Determined Frisk, hinting that more DT = more speed.
Plus did we forget that Asgore consistently dodged the Kid Undyne? That's also evidence for stronger = faster.
This then.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,664
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Pretty sure you can use it against Knight Knight and the result ends up being Hypersonic+ anyway when comparing the meteors and Frisk, so don't think the canonicity of the multiplier really needs to be acknowledged.
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- #173
Their attacks may be presented as somewhat faster, but we can't really consistently cross-scale between those visuals without running into calc stacking issues. And just "They look faster on-screen than another character did in a completely different scene" is not good enough to upscale speed.
A lotta the actual fight seemed to more be danmaku and time hax, do you have any other part of the game in mind?
A more powerful and experienced character consistently dodging a less powerful and experienced character does not mean that every strength increase in the series should be accompanied by a speed blitz. C'mon.
I'd be a lot more comfortable with that actually being measured (or properly researched) by us. Especially since one only has a measured ~10% amp.
In fact, I'll see if I can find a reliable answer online somewhere.
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Sans consistetly dodging and having his attacks as always moving faster than us is enough evidence.
It's not even calc stacking, it's us seeing that the attacks are meant to be faster other than the character also being such.
If you bothered to even check the profiles you'd already have seen this, come on.
Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely far higher (Kept up with a Frisk who defeated Asgore, and could repeatedly blitz them when not holding back at the end of their fight. Fast enough to trap in his vines Toriel, Asgore, Alphys, Undyne, Papyrus and Sans, without letting them even a chance to react)
You'd have to completely refute Photoshop Flowey being blitz-degree of faster with some excuse here.
It's minor evidence, but my main thing is that DT increases all stats, including speed.
Eden_Warlock99
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Here's the footage of x4 Sea Tea Frisk and the meteors.
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- #176
Tsunderplane's attacks also move faster than Frisk.
That "blitzing" is, as I said, time hax. He blatantly does it by repeatedly loading saves with attacks already on Frisk.
Trapping people in the vines really seems to have happened since they were caught off-guard.
Found it. Here's the decompiled code of using the Sea Tea; it increases your speed by 1 for each use, until it hits 8 speed. Here's the decompiled code initializing speed; it starts at 4. Movement's split across four scripts, but they all look like this; just moving a number of pixels equal to speed, and halving that if you're also holding cancel. Diagonally it just adds the two movements, but that doesn't actually change how much that increase alters things.
(Also, when you're in Sans' fight, your speed is set to a minimum of 5)
tl;dr it is just a flat +25% speed increase for each use, totaling at 100% after four, our calc on the first sea tea use must have screwed something up.
I'd be fine for using that calc * 2 in places where it's relevant, but I'm not certain where exactly that would be. Makes sense for Frisk using Sea Tea themselves, but I'm not so sure about the other three.
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- #178
Wouldn't surprise me if that was true, but I don't remember clear evidence for that off the top of my head (dodging seems to be meta nonsense rather than something other monsters are just too slow to do, his shortcuts & teleporting are hax not raw speed).
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I am not even surprised at this point.
ShionAH
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I dont think the wiki accepts that he was doing anything meta, its speed
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- #181
Every other monster in the game is just too slow to dodge??????? There's no way that's how we treat it. Many of their attacks have them seemingly physically moving to attack Frisk (such as Froggit's Jump), or seemingly involve large bodily movements (Undyne's sprite).
Plus, if we treated them that way, then in matches, their attack speed would have to be way higher than their combat speed. Their attacks would have to be able to hit opponents who they can't even move to dodge attacks from. No chance we do everyone besides Sans/Flowey dirty like that.
ShionAH
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Then why dont they dodge? Its insane to imply they are not capable of dodging since Asgore does
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- #184
I don't believe Asgore dodges in the fight with Frisk, and from a brief skim through it, I think I'm right.
But yeah, the reasons I'd give would be:
- It's a game mechanic.
- There's some code of honour about it, that they'd invoke even in fights to the death, which Sans ignores completely.
I do not think that they're simply all too slow.
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No like I am sorry but you see these attacks covering the screen instantly unlike his "normal" vine attacks that instead can still be seen and perceived.
Besides, Sans is accepted to have this:
- Instinctive Action (Is capable of dodging attacks while he was deep asleep, only getting hit when Frisk broke the game's combat system)
At this point all I see are just excuses to discredit feats.
ShionAH
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He dodges against Undyne
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- #187
Well yeah, a fight not in the game's combat system.
If that was a better-established ability, I'd be inclined to agree. But how is Frisk supposed to bypass IA by "breaking the game's combat system", especially when you take into account that Frisk's initial attack there already broke the game's combat system, and they just did it again without player input. Is "breaking the game's combat system" supposed to give them a 5x speed amp or smth?
I think the reason Frisk was able to hit Sans there was because Sans was actually taken off-guard; he thought that Frisk wouldn't interrupt his speech like that. (And if I'm to be completely honest, I don't buy that Sans was actually asleep there; I think given his quick turn-around and immediate comment indicate that he was just faking it to bait Frisk out, like he did with the "sparing" earlier in the fight, but I'm okay with assuming that he actually was asleep; there's only so much I can revise).
Anyway, since I think Sans can still be taken off-guard despite that (as evidenced by the feat itself), I don't think Flowey taking him off-guard in that scene is an issue.
ShionAH
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I always assumed the second strike is done by Chara, which would explain why that attack was able to blitz Sans since Chara could be faster.
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- #189
I disagree, but that's not an unreasonable argument.
If y'all don't find my points convincing, then I think this point is the linchpin that makes Sans + Flowey + Chara upscaling seem fine. With that, it's not a bad enough idea to be worth a drawn-out argument.
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It's literally in their profile that's Chara who did so.
You'd have to overhaul a lot in the profiles if you're just gonna say "no it's not" to a lot of what's accepted lmao.
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- #191
Well, now that that aspect's been thoroughly discussed, I'm gonna go to bed.
Feel free to post any additional arguments about why Chara/Flowey/Sans scale to Sea Tea (if it's just this prior blitzing stuff + "Sans doesn't get hit even when you use 3 Sea Teas", I find scaling based off of there not being a special interaction with an optional item from a far earlier area very weak, plus it'd only be 60% upscaling, unless we assume that Frisk permanently got 25% faster at the moment of the Sans fight).
And any more about why Undyne/Mettaton/Asgore/Toriel/Amalgamates should upscale from end-game monster speeds.
I'll try to get to 'em in the morning.
Feel free to post any additional arguments about why Chara/Flowey/Sans scale to Sea Tea (if it's just this prior blitzing stuff + "Sans doesn't get hit even when you use 3 Sea Teas", I find scaling based off of there not being a special interaction with an optional item from a far earlier area very weak, plus it'd only be 60% upscaling, unless we assume that Frisk permanently got 25% faster at the moment of the Sans fight).
And any more about why Undyne/Mettaton/Asgore/Toriel/Amalgamates should upscale from end-game monster speeds.
I'll try to get to 'em in the morning.
Eden_Warlock99
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I mean, sans wasn't planning on ever attacking Frisk again and he basically tries to force himself awake whenever you try to the push the box, so ehh.
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If it's a game mechanic then Sans being the only one who doesn't subscribe to it is still implication of him being faster. Like why would he be the one exception?
I don't think there's really evidence for this. I would definitely upscale Sans from the current rating.
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- #194
I ask again; are you going to seriously use the implications this has in matches?
That these characters can attack at comparable speeds to characters who utterly blitz them in terms of combat speed. They can swing axes comparable to people, redirect their own attacks, but they can't actually dodge anything unless that character moves far slower. Hell, there's characters who physically move in their attacks faster than Frisk does (Froggit, Tsunderplane), yet they don't dodge attacks.
All of their speeds would need to be readjusted in line with this, and their matches would need to be revoked.
Or actually, thinking about it, maybe Frisk is the one who blitzes everyone else with their attacks. They can attack so quickly that their opponents can't dodge, despite these attacks involving a lot of physical movement (as all the weapons are melee). Which would still require Frisk's speed to be adjusted, and their non-peak DT matches revoked.
Sans' line when he dodges for the first time.
Also, consider that Undyne was able to intercept Frisk's attack to save Monster Kid, yet she didn't dodge at all during the fight, despite powering up.
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Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,664
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Could be they just suck skill-wise, besides like Undyne and Asgore (Undyne is probably too prideful and concerned about being fair to dodge, and Asgore wants you to kill him)
The entire fight happened on this bridge, don't think Undyne had much room to dodge.
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- #196
Being a matter of skill/pride/willingness would still make it not a speed-upscaling thing.
She was out of the way initially, before she got in the way. Presumably by charging in front of Monster Kid. In the same way, she could presumably get out of the way by darting backwards.The entire fight happened on this bridge, don't think Undyne had much room to dodge.
Plus, I really think the contortions this requires makes it far less likely to be the explanation that was intended by Toby. I think the intended explanation is blatantly "It's a turn-based RPG game mechanic which only Sans breaks out of". The same way he breaks out of many other mechanics and conventions which other characters abide by.
ShionAH
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So law manipulation for Sans, I've heard enough
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I wouldn't say "utterly blitz", Frisk still needs to aim well to land hits and someone's IRL melee attack speed is always going to be faster than their burst movement in a fight, if Frisk is a little bit faster them having trouble dodging attacks while at the same time not struggling too much to land hits isn't something that strikes me as particularly hard to believe or requiring a massive gap in speed. Really, "dodging" the way Sans does it is a pretty unrealistic thing to do against a comparable foe you're in melee range of, let alone doing it reliably. Watch a boxing match and you'll rarely see people moving their entire bodies away from a blow so cleanly, usually they just shift so the blow doesn't hit head-on or block it.
I think it's reasonable to assume the gameplay mechanics are abstracting away other characters' ability to dodge (unreliably, with difficulty) while highlighting Sans' extraordinary ability to do so by actually implementing it in the fight. It doesn't need to be "no other character in Undertale can ever at all possibly dodge an attack from Frisk".
See above.
Obviously that's Toby Fox poking fun at the player and obviously Sans dodging is meant to be a subversion of your expectations, but something being a meta twist is little evidence to say Sans is using Plot Manipulation to do it or whatever. One could very well argue that since Sans has followed Frisk's journey he knows in-character they haven't ever had their attacks dodged.
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- #199
Do you also take Sans attacking Frisk through the menu seriously?
Do you think every other monster you fight in the game just waits around while Frisk thinks over decisions, or that Sans has some weird hax that lets him mentally attack Frisk?
Do you think every other monster you fight in the game just waits around while Frisk thinks over decisions, or that Sans has some weird hax that lets him mentally attack Frisk?
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