Undertale MHS+

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Legendary feat of Frisk dodging cloud-to-ground lightning, which is accepted only as electricity dodging on this website.

However I noticed Vulkin himself saying “Thunder!” right before doing his lightning attacks. These two articles explain that thunder cannot actually occur without a real lightning.

So ultimately I propose this re-calculation to be used for Vulkin, Frisk and those who scale above them in terms of speed.

As supportive, in Undertale the attacks do act like real ones (see StrymULTRA’s explanation under that blog in comments). And, obviously, this lightning is from the cloud. These two would not be sufficient by themselves, but they should work as supportive to main argument.

Also, the fact that Frisk does not scale to 8-C at the moment of fighting Vulkin does not really disqualify the feat, since, as noted on Lightning feats page itself, average humans can survive the lightning strike, and there are many instances of such thing in the real world.

 

[ShionAH]

Agree

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I see both sides to this so I’m probably just gonna remain neutral, but this would massively buff Tsundereplane’s KE right? Pretty sure it’ll take it to the tier 7 range, which seems like a massive outlier (then again the characters being MHS+ is maybe an outlier too lol).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I see both sides to this so I’m probably just gonna remain neutral, but this would massively buff Tsundereplane’s KE right? Pretty sure it’ll take it to the tier 7 range, which seems like a massive outlier (then again the characters being MHS+ is maybe an outlier too lol).

To be fair Frisk’s determination varies to the point they get to Immeasurable speeds in True Pacifist, so I wouldn’t really call it an outlier.
I don’t really care about scaling anyone to Tier 7-8, as I said one can survive lightning without being remotely at that level, there are many instances of people in real life surviving lightning strikes.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

To be fair Frisk’s determination varies to the point they get to Immeasurable speeds in True Pacifist, so I wouldn’t really call it an outlier.

Idk if I really would either considering how they still have a lot of impressive feats outside of it, but idk if the site standards agree.

I don’t really care about scaling anyone to Tier 7-8, as I said one can survive lightning without being remotely at that level, there are many instances of people in real life surviving lightning strikes.

I wasn’t talking about the lightning strikes, I was talking about the kinetic energy from Tsundereplane flying faster than Vulkin’s electricity (which I think I’ve misremembered as an accepted feat lol, must of been thinking of something else). If the electricity became lightning then that number would be much higher, but since we don’t actually seem to accept that then I guess we can just forget about it. Whoops

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also, the fact that Frisk does not scale to 8-C at the moment of fighting Vulkin does not really disqualify the feat, since, as noted on Lightning feats page itself, average humans can survive the lightning strike, and there are many instances of such thing in the real world.

Vulkin themself are required to have 8-C AP for it to qualify tho

Plus,

Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

The average lightning is 4 kilometers long, 2.5 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 1963495.40 cm^3.

Vulkin's lightning is 66.45 centimeters long, 10.13 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 5355.54 cm^3.

The average lightning is 366 bigger than Vulkin's lightning.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Vulkin themself are required to have 8-C AP for it to qualify tho

True, but I don't think we can really ignore other important things. Like, thunder statement is pretty much a give-away.

Plus,
Electricity is formed when ice and water particles move rapidly inside clouds.

Vulkin's cloud is too small to have many ice and water particles, and it doesn't have much space for the particles to move and build up energy.

Lightning is caused by the buildup and discharge of electrical energy within a cloud or between a cloud and the ground.

The average lightning is 4 kilometers long, 2.5 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 1963495.40 cm^3.

Vulkin's lightning is 66.45 centimeters long, 10.13 centimeters in width. This gives us a volume of 5355.54 cm^3.

The average lightning is 366 bigger than Vulkin's lightning.

Why are you using the volume via kilometers length if the cloud is far lower in Vulkin's case. Like, in real life, if clouds hit the plane, the lightning strike would be smaller and its volume too. It's a bit nitpicky, don't you think?

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah the 8-C AP is neccessary tbh.

 

[ShionAH]

I want to add there are some feats that are 8-C in Undertale.

So its consistent.

Undertale - Meteor Shower

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StrymULTRA]

Accepted end: 9-A

Lol.

 

[ShionAH]

Accepted end for FRISKS DURABILITY.

Knight Knight technically should scale to 8-C.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk having specifically low af dura in a single fight for the sake of an argument is just stupid tbh.

 

[ShionAH]

We see Frisk being able to harm KK which is 8-C cool, but we also know Frisk takes damage from KKs since Meteors which is 9-A this can be easily explained that Frisk just has a weaker durability in this case since their stats and everything really depends on their DT.

I dont know why a character that can have TIER 8 AP AND TIER 2 DURABILITY at the same time having TIER 8 AP but TIER 9 DURABILITY is suddenly so wrong?

There is a reason why Frisk actually varies with their empowerment. Like here is my argument we know Frisks durability and AP can range in way different tiers to the point where they can literally be 6 tiers apart but we also have to start thinking about how much damage they really took from the single meteor, they only take like what? 2 damage?

People with high durability can still be hurt by things with weaker AP that is a thing that happens all the time in fiction it would be considered a inconsistency/outlier/PiS/Game mechanics so I dont know why we assume Frisk suddenly cannot make their tiers and things vary or just call it a game mechanic that Toby obviously didnt think about

 

[StrymULTRA]

I dont know why a character that can have TIER 8 AP AND TIER 2 DURABILITY at the same time having TIER 8 AP but TIER 9 DURABILITY is suddenly so wrong?

Because there Frisk can BOTH harm and get harmed to a similar degree.

Unless you mean that Undyne is a glass cannon because she has 20 DEF and 50 ATK.

People with high durability can still be hurt by things with weaker AP that is a thing that happens all the time in fiction it would be considered a inconsistency/outlier/PiS/Game mechanics so I dont know why we assume Frisk suddenly cannot make their tiers and things vary or just call it a game mechanic that Toby obviously didnt think about

Honestly, the 9-A+ used from MTT EX calc does not work, because it's simple leg-shaped bullets that instead of being distant, they're used closely, and it ignores that Frisk still gets the damage they'd get from a single leg. Plus Danmaku does not work in this way, because it's still many bullets used each with the same AP of the individual who uses the, we do not give to characters higher ratings just because they have multiple limbs and can use them at the same time, thus multiplying their AP, we give tiers based on the power of a single blow.

 

[ShionAH]

Creating a universe is not Low 2-C but making 10-C a quantillion times.

Destroying 10 universes is just Low 2-C energy ten times rather than 2-B lol

Destroying a door is actually destroying a million 10-C atoms one by one

 

[StrymULTRA]

Creating a universe is not Low 2-C but making 10-C a quantillion times.

Low 2-C is Aleph-1 Joules so no.

Destroying 10 universes is just Low 2-C energy ten times rather than 2-B lol

2-C*

You're forgetting the space between universes too.

Destroying a door is actually destroying a million times 10-C atoms one by one

One thing is destring X overtime, another is using multiple attacks with the same energy as you. By this logic everyone who uses Danmaku should be as strong as the amount of projectiles they use at once.

 

[ShionAH]

"Guys guys! If you use your energy and power to make a hundred meteors which destroyed an entire planet. You are NOT 5-B! You are 10-C! You just created millions of atoms to make a meteor and then created even more to make an hundred meteors! Simple really!"

I personally think this logic is really dumb and is ignoring how other UT calculations are also nearly 8-C with most of them being borderline, it also makes this lighting so much more consistent.

Whatever we'll see what mods think, I simply think this CRT was intresting.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"Guys guys! If you use your energy and power to make a hundred meteors which destroyed an entire planet. You are NOT 5-B! You are 10-C! You just created millions of atoms to make a meteor and then created even more to make an hundred meteors! Simple really!"

So basically...

If I have a X tier feat, I use danmaku as my primary way of fight (100 projectiles), and I fight a guy who can both tank a single bullet AND harm me, does it mean that I am actually x100 that feat, or that each of my bullets is X tier?

 

[ShionAH]

If a single one of your projectiles is 9-A
Then I personally think you'd need somewhat of a strong energy to create a 40 more 9-As in a single attack

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't work like that with danmaku oriented verses sadly.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Then I personally think you'd need somewhat of a strong energy to create a 40 more 9-As in a single attack

Btw KK never did "a single attack" lol.

If you mean the sun or moon she does, Frisk takes equal damage from both those and a meteor.

 

[ShionAH]

I dont see anything about this on Danmaku, why are you making stuff up now?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I dont see anything about this on Danmaku, why are you making stuff up now?

It's just how we treat stuff.

The fact that staff agreed with me on this in the past is already a sign that your argument is eh.

 

[ShionAH]

You are not giving me anything though. Staff can change their minds, you are acting like its a site rule that was agreed by everyone but like... that does not exist. If someone creates ten building level attacks in one attack then obviously that means the energy they extract at that attack is ten times building level

X = 10 x Y

X = 10Y

Not

X = 10 x Y

X = Y

 

[StrymULTRA]

If someone creates ten building level attacks in one attack then obviously that means the energy they extract at that attack is ten times building level

Doesn't work like that.

It just means the character is physically 8-C but can go up to x10 that through stacking attacks. And even that is dubious if I throw with my two hands 2 rocks at X speed, getting Y tier with KE with each, I won't get x2 Y.

 

[ShionAH]

Throwing Rocks is not the same as using your magical powers to create fourty meteors, Knight Knight also doesnt do this one by one he seemingly does it using the Moon and does this in a singular attack

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean if I throw 2 rocks at the same time, I wouldn't get a x2 for obvious reasons. Especially given that a rock that's x2 heavier would obviosuly be way harder to throw, KK hasn't proof that she'd be able to launch at the same speed a meteor x40 times heavier than a single one.

Sorry, but it doesn't work like this.

 

[ShionAH]

If you throw two rocks using only one hand then you would have 2x. Knight Knight is not making fourty seperate attacks I dont know why you think that, she is doing a singular attack which is split into fourty parts yet she still started this attack with the combined energy otherwise it would be a single meteor

Knight Knight = 40 x 9-A

Knight Knight = 9-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

So Frisk should be x40 9-A despite being damaged by a single meteor yet dealing damage to KK?

 

[ShionAH]

You jump from one argument to another then stop using it and jump back and then forward... what the heck

 

[StrymULTRA]

I didn't stop using an argument. i just put it on stand-by only to use it again when another way to see it is clarified.

Edit: I also just explained why multiple bullets doesn't mean that multipliers can be used for one's full AP.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

a character that can have TIER 8 AP AND TIER 2 DURABILITY

This will change, trust me

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yeah the 8-C AP is neccessary tbh.

Ngl Ninjago had lightning accepted as being real due to the guy being called Master of Lightning and controlling the one from the clouds despite him straight up saying it is 10K volts which is Wall level

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl Ninjago had lightning accepted as being real due to the guy being called Master of Lightning and controlling the one from the clouds despite him straight up saying it is 10K volts which is Wall level

I see... Then I'm neutral now ig.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I've probably found a better way to prove Tier 8 Knight Knight.

YES, is the Sun stuff again if you wonder.

 

[ShionAH]

Doesn't this basically allow MHS+ to happen??

Undertale: See Me Moving An Elevator? No Shit!

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Doesn't this basically allow MHS+ to happen??

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ndertale:_See_Me_Moving_An_Elevator?_No_Shit!

Flowey really just downscales from Asgore, we don't know how strong he is compared to everyone else.
So it kinda just makes the Top Tiers 8-B while keeping everyone else at 9-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't this basically allow MHS+ to happen??

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ndertale:_See_Me_Moving_An_Elevator?_No_Shit!

Vulkin doesn't scale to Flowey.

 

[ShionAH]

Anyways, this is bound to happen eventually anyway. Further support is always good though