Why everything is assumed to have a soul here?

[Keeweed]

We assume it’s real because the majority of humanity, the people that make fiction, think it’s real and write it into their stories. We aren’t debating real life, we are debating the views and opinions of real life and the majority opinion is that people believe in souls.

 

[Bernkastelll]

so concept hax shouldn't work on verses without concepts

if the verse isnt stated to have concepts, yeah, as concepts are not a proved thing, so, kinda of fantasy, aka only works in the verses that does stated that it exists

think it’s real and write it into their stories

That's my point, the people that put it in their stories, assumed that souls exist in their verse, so, souls exist there, but it cannot be said to a verse that isnt stated to have these

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

it does comes from math/physic stuff

Its from a theory

Theory

It's not something proven

But we treat it as something real to make things easier

 

[Bernkastelll]

Its from a theory

Theory

It's not something proven

but the verses with tier 1 assumed that it exist, so, they are tier 1 just fine, different than souls, unless the verse stated to

 

[Thelastmlg]

Tier 2 and 1 aren't even a argument, they are literal theories, just like souls, but enough verses use them and even more use souls, simple as that.

You just said is fine to have tier 1 because some verses have them, but not souls despite most having them.

 

[Urshani]

thats actually, the best thing that we have currently

for something as metaphysical as a soul or concept, materialism (our current paradigm) cannot try to solve those questions. It's the hard problem of consciousness, times infinity. It's like trying to play a video game without a computer, or anything to build it with.

Wait a thousand years.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

****, the entire Tier 1 is almost purely assumption

Yes, shit on that cringe tier more

 

[Bernkastelll]

Tier 2 and 1 aren't even a argument, they are literal theories, just like souls, but enough verses use them and even more use souls, simple as that

As I said, if the verse stated that tier 1 shit like higher dimensions exist, then it exist in the verse just fine, same as souls, if the verse stated that souls exist, then souls exist in the verse

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

but the verses with tier 1 assumed that it exist, so, they are tier 1 just fine, different than souls, unless the verse stated to

Tier 1 verses say "I see you as fiction gg" and then we apply the theory

At no point does the particular verse treat the theory as legitimate

 

[Bernkastelll]

er 1 verses say "I see you as fiction gg" and then we apply the theory

what, i didnt understood this

 

[Keeweed]

Concepts aren’t something that need to be proven. Did people forget what the definition of a concept is. A concept is the just the overall description/idea of a thing. The concept of space is everything about space in and of itself. It’s not like a soul at all.

Though again the default assumption for humanity is that people have souls, so that is the default assumptions of their stories until that majority changes. And even if it changed, verse equalization still covers it majority of the time unless the verse states it doesn’t have souls to counter the claims of the verse saying all life has souls.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

How is soul different from what being used in Tier 1?

In fact, the soul has been theorized in science if I gonna been honest as the wiki page mention the more scientific stuff.

Also do keep in mind, science also have theories that is not proven nor disprove like the Many Worlds Interpretation to being specific.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Concepts aren’t something that need to be proven. Did people forget what the definition of a concept is. A concept is the just the overall description of a thing. The concept of space is everything about space

hrmm, according to Plato theory of forms (which I guess is where concept comes from), Concepts are in the Realm of Forms, which are the ''Real'' things, untouchable, unbound by space and time, impossible to be completely understood, as the physical worlds is just a generic representation of the realm of forms, so, concept is definitely a thing that need to be proved lmfao, because it is baseless

How is soul different from what being used in Tier 1?

it is not, if it exist in the verse, cool

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

it is not, if it exist in the verse, cool

But it does not exist

 

[Bernkastelll]

hrmm, according to Plato theory of forms (which I guess is where concept comes from), Concepts are in the Realm of Forms, which are the ''Real'' things, untouchable, unbound by space and time, impossible to be completely understood, as the physical worlds is just a generic representation of the realm of forms, so, concept is definitely a thing that need to be proved lmfao, because it is baseless

it is not, if it exist in the verse, cool

maybe im shittalking about tier 1, as i am not a math wizard, but math does have a basis, souls base is literally ''God created it tho'', and you know, we can reach more deep points if yall wants to use that argument

 

[HammerStrikes219]

it is not, if it exist in the verse, cool

The thing is we also never go by the assumption that the entire verse is completely and utterly soulless as it requires legitimate burden of proof rather than the verse having souls for that matter.

 

[Keeweed]

That’s not the modern or at least normal today definition. The basic definition of a concept nowadays (not referring to this site, but last I checked this site dropped that type of concept a long time ago) is that it’s just the overall idea of an specific thing. Don’t know how to give a good example due to it being so abstract.

Edit: Though this is kinda derailing. Going back to souls next post.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The thing is we also never go by the assumption that the entire verse is completely and utterly soulless as it requires legitimate burden of proof rather than the verse having souls for that matter.

so, we go with reversing burden of proof, which is literally the total opposite of a battleboard that claims to be a indexing wiki, as we are assuming not proved things

 

[HammerStrikes219]

maybe im shittalking about tier 1, as i am not a math wizard,

and to a extent, science as science did play a role in Tier 1, specifically theoretical physics (even if it has been largely overlooked like the Hilbert space being a example).

 

[Keeweed]

“And even if it changed, verse equalization still covers it majority of the time unless the verse states it doesn’t have souls to counter the claims of the verse saying all life has souls.”

Said this earlier but I’ll bring it up again. Verse equalization makes this pointless. The verse without souls would need to say it doesn’t have souls to counter the verse that does have souls’ claim that everything has souls. Without a counter the verse actually putting down an idea takes priority.

 

[Urshani]

trying to prove concepts existing in irl, is like a computer program trying to prove system 32 exists without ever getting out of its program

At the time, souls and concepts and other things like that cannot be disproven or proven. Accept this, and you will be happier for it.

 

[Bernkastelll]

“And even if it changed, verse equalization still covers it majority of the time unless the verse states it doesn’t have souls to counter the claims of the verse saying all life has souls.”

i dont understand why did u brought a wiki rule, as I am questioning the legitimacy of it lol, i don't care if verse equalization exist, I am questioning some aspects regarding souls

 

[Keeweed]

I bring it up because it makes this debate pointless. Either the verse says it’s soulless so we don’t need this thread. Or it says nothing and the verse saying souls exist takes priority.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Or it says nothing and the verse saying souls exist takes priority.

And what is the reason? A wiki standard? I am questioning it, so, yeah, it needs a thread

 

[Keeweed]

That is the basis of verse equalization. The verse is claiming something about all living beings, the other verse doesn’t make a counter claim, so the character that has souls will treat his living opponent as if they have a soul. Because in their verse all living beings have souls.

 

[Bernkastelll]

That is the basis of verse equalization.

I literally don't care, I am asking the legitimacy, bringing that the standard exist doesnt means that i cannot make threads regarding it legitimacy

 

[Urshani]

I literally don't care, I am asking the legitimacy, bringing that the standard exist doesnt means that i cannot make threads regarding it legitimacy

talk to the mods

 

[Keeweed]

You didn’t make a thread on verse equalization. You made a thread on souls. Souls fall under verse equalization. You would need to talk about and remove verse equalization. So what is your problem with verse equalization?

 

[joshpiece]

Wouldn’t the people who say soul manip works on somebody also have to prove that they have a soul to actually manip due to the burden of proof or am I getting this convo wrong.

 

[Keeweed]

Them soul manipulating someone in and of itself proves people in their verse has souls. In verse equalization, without the other verse making a counter claim, the verse that makes a claim takes priority (since, you know, one actually claimed something about everyone versus the one that didn’t say anything at all).

 

[Bernkastelll]

talk to the mods

No, I made a thread asking about it legitimacy, thats enough

. You made a thread on souls. Souls fall under verse equalization.

Yeah I made a thread about souls being assumed, and your argument is about standard existing, and the standard is literally ''people belive it tho, common sense tho'', so what? I cannot made a thread asking about the legitimacy?

 

[Bernkastelll]

That is the basis of verse equalization. The verse is claiming something about all living beings, the other verse doesn’t make a counter claim, so the character that has souls will treat his living opponent as if they have a soul. Because in their verse all living beings have souls.

wait, no, what the ****, this is not even what the verse equalization said

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Technically we trying to apply irl logic to every fictional verse (which we all know doesn’t work all the time) as again fiction doesn’t have to follow the logic being used in this thread so…

 

[Keeweed]

Souls don’t rely on legitimacy though, because we aren’t talking about the real world. We are talking about fiction and majority of fiction is either religious and has souls, or doesn’t say anything on the subject at all and thus will be covered by verse equalization.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If the reason for not wanting it to be a standard assumption for everyone and everything to have souls simple because "We cannot scientifically prove souls exist", we might as well do the same thing for mind manipulation, fate manipulation causality manipulation ect. One needs to prove they have immunity to all those hax abilities rather than assuming the hax abilities don't work on anything outside their own universe; otherwise what's the point of even having hax to begin with. Prove a positive not a negative regarding hax resistance/immunity.

As for the existence of IRL souls themselves, that is not relevant to the indexing of this wiki and gets into religious controversial territory so I'd rather not have that. But even in IRL, saying their is no soul or no "Higher Power Entity" is just as religious as saying there are those. And we're supposed to be more neutral when it comes to IRL stuff. No one should force any kind of religion or nonreligious on anyone. But what we do prioritize is verse equalization; which the best way to do that is to make it the standard assumption that everybody has a body, mind, soul, empathy, past/history, present, future/fate, and exist within cause and effect unless otherwise stated in respective verses.

 

[Bernkastelll]

If the reason for not wanting it to be a standard assumption for everyone and everything to have souls simple because "We cannot scientifically prove souls exist", we might as well do the same thing for mind manipulation, fate manipulation causality manipulation ect.

Yes, we should

As for the existence of IRL souls themselves, that is not relevant to the indexing of this wiki and gets into religious controversial territory so I'd rather not have that. But even in IRL, saying their is no soul or no "Higher Power Entity" is just as religious as saying there are those. And we're supposed to be more neutral when it comes to IRL stuff. No one should force any kind of religion or nonreligious on anyone. But what we do prioritize is verse equalization; which the best way to do that is to make it the standard assumption that everybody has a body, mind, soul, empathy, past/history, present, future/fate, and exist within cause and effect unless otherwise stated in respective verses.

Yeah we shouldnt, so, why are we assuming that it exist?

 

[Bernkastelll]

verse equalization; which the best way to do that is to make it the standard assumption that everybody has a body, mind, soul, empathy, past/history, present, future/fate, and exist within cause and effect unless otherwise stated in respective verses.

can u even explain how? if we are an indexing wiki, why are we doing the opposite and assuming unproved and unreliable things?

 

[Keeweed]

“Yes, we should”

95% of powers in fiction aren’t scientifically accurate. The entire point of fiction is to be non realistic or to tell a story in anyway the writer wants. Why do you think every little thing about it needs to be scientific when any living creature being above 9-A is unrealistic.

I can’t scientifically prove a flying eye exist, but Terraria has over a dozen.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I've never understood why people have a problem with it, honestly. We do assume quite a lot of things that don't necessarily have to exist exist, so I don't see what's the problem with having this one specifically.

Bern, we can not prove things like concepts, or higher dimensions, humans having consciousnesses, etc etc. We assume LOTS of things exist and treat them as such, this one in specific is not special nor is it a problem.

 

[Bernkastelll]

95% of powers in fiction aren’t scientifically accurate.

fire is accurate, so, fire manipulation is fine, so, obviously someone can get burn, I can literally list several others examples if u want to