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Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

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He's just using other words to say that blitzing Solaris and dodging his attacks shouldn't be possible even for an immeasurable. We went over this already, and to be honest, he also lost credibility by saying Solaris doesn’t have temporal omnipresence at all to begin with, only being limited to 3 points in time. Even if his statement about the lasers and meteors not being temporally omnipresent was true, not only would Solaris be an idiot to spam these moves instead of just rushing in and punching his opponents, but it still wouldn't explain how he's never able to react in time to defend himself from attacks
 
I mean tbh Solaris probably is just temporally omnipresent, which is what they meant with the whole "beyond time" thing, a la Lavos, and not actually immeasurable.

But I'm like so far removed from this that it's not even funny.

But seriously, what are the pro-immeasurable reasons? I'm not reading nine pages (or even one page).

There's also a ten to one chance that I'm not going agree with the other people of the anti-immeasurable side as I don't know their reasons and I make my own (that are influenced by my other sources). But I am against immeasurable. Tbh it'll probably the last thing I'm vocally against on here...
 
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I don't mean to sound rude, but both Pepto and I made summaries. You can read those if you're looking for some reasons, and if you're unwilling to, then that's fine, but I don't know if you should have much say in this thread if that's the case.
 
Also, I agree with your summary, Pepto. I don't have any issues with it.
Thank you for spending your time on it.

Also also, for those who end up disagreeing with keeping immeasurable for the Super forms, would you be willing to state your reasons why, please?
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
I mean tbh Solaris probably is just temporally omnipresent, which is what they meant with the whole "beyond time" thing, a la Lavos, and not actually immeasurable.

But I'm like so far removed from this that it's not even funny.

But seriously, what are the pro-immeasurable reasons? I'm not reading nine pages (or even one page).
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Then just read our 3 summaries. I made one just above you, and so did TheUser and MysticMania. The "board" that I reference in my summary shows up one page earlier. It compares characters with infinite speed to space-omnipresents, characters with immeasurable speed, and time-omnipresents
The_real_cal_howard said:
There's also a ten to one chance that I'm not going agree with the other people of the anti-immeasurable side as I don't know their reasons and I make my own (that are influenced by my other sources). But I am against immeasurable. Tbh it'll probably the last thing I'm vocally against on here...
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Your only reason for being against it that you mentionned is really moot, but yeah. I might just leave the Wiki after this is over. I had many other threads to make after this one, but I'm starting to think they're all wastes of time. We'll see.
 
MysticMania said:
In favor of keeping Immeasurable speed for game Super forms, my summary is essentially:
  • The existence of Sonic Generations debunks the idea of Type 2 acausality being a factor. Type 1 wouldn't be enough to save or help anyone here, and I've heard Types 3, 4, and 5 don't impact this? ( Either that, or nothing supports their existence here in the first place. I'm just blanking on that specific part. ) Even if they did have Type 2, however, it still wouldn't explain Sonic repeatedly outspeeding Solaris.
  • In both the Japanese and English scripts for Sonic 06, Solaris is described to us by Dr.Eggman as existing "in the past, present, and future, all at once." No specific points in time are specified in either script, further supporting the idea that Solaris exists throughout all of time, all at once, which would make him Temporally Omnipresent. Using speed, very most likely, the Hedgehogs travel to different points in time to battle Solaris. Even if they didn't time travel, that actually wouldn't affect the feat. They're still dodging and countering attacks that exist throughout all of time, all at once.
  • No finite speed would be fast enough to dodge Solaris' projectiles, which are also Temporally Omnipresent. However, Super Sonic, Super Shadow, and Super Silver all dodge multiple attacks from Solaris throughout the fight, and no major or significant injuries are implied after or during the battle. Super Sonic's also fast enough to hit Solaris before he can block, despite the fact that Solaris can see every Sonic, at every second, all at once. He would already know Sonic's every move, and yet, is still beaten to the punch, so to speak. DueDate has argued that the gameplay doesn't display the characters being hit by past attacks, but as I said, "If they dodge an attack, that means they aren't hit by it, thus, there's no need to show them being hit by what they dodged."

That's my summary, but I could certainly be forgetting things. Peptocoptr27 may do a much better job at explaining this than I could, though.
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Here's my summary, for reference.
 
Peptocoptr27 said:
Snip
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So here's what I'm going to say, because I think this is the best way to explain why immeasurable doesn't work. I will admit fault here, because I personally thought it would just make sense by me saying that immeasurable doesn't solve the problem that temporally omnipresent attacks pose.

The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks.
If the attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time, then if any point in their own time ever overlaps with Solaris' attacks they would get hit. Even with immeasurable speed, you still have a past and a future. And immeasurable speed in of itself does not allow you to control the position of your past self, merely update your present to avoid things that incur upon them. And we never see any of them, while playing from their perspective, noticing themselves taking damage from the past and then avoiding it so they take no damage at all. So we have nothing but them dodging the attacks with no damage to support immeasurable, but that doesn't support immeasurable speed as I've illustrated above in this post. Instead, it would support one of two other things:

1. Temporal Omnipresence: With temporal omnipresence, the hedgehogs would be capable of moving their past, present, and future selves simultaneously to avoid these attacks. However, they can't have this because of two key reasons: The hedgehogs wouldn't be able to inhabit the same space as they're shown in the game and they would be able to see each other while battling.

2. Acauaslity Type 2: Without having a future or past, the only point in time they would need to avoid an attack would be in the present. And in that case, the attack from their own perspective would have a finite speed due to the attacks only existing in their presence as far as they were concerned. This doesn't work solely because a later sonic game (Sonic Generations) shows us classic sonic who is said to be Modern Sonics past battling alongside him (both in super form). So either Sonic never had acausality or Sonic Generations retconned it, either way I don't think Sonic would qualify for it as he stands now.

Now I shall directly tackle a few points I believe directly wrong:

Immeasurable Speed simulates Temporal Omnipresence: With immeasurable speed, there is only one of you and it doesn't give you the ability to spread yourself throughout all of time. All it would do is allow you to move to all these points with no delay, which could create the illusion of Temporal Omnipresence without giving any of the actual effects of it. To be more specific, even if you were immeasurable you wouldn't be able to damage someone simultaneously throughout all of time, you'd just be able to make it look like you did.

They're automatically dodging the attacks from the past and that's why we don't see it: You can't actually prove that. Like, the only way for us to know if that's true is for it to be stated somewhere. That's why I keep stressing it being visually communicated to us, because without any form of statements, I feel it better to default to saying that this contradicts immeasurable speed since there's no hard indication given to us by the game or any other source that isn't our own extraploation.

Seeing Solaris as anything more than a ball of light: Amy of all people specifically sees and points out Solaris's core. When everyone sees Solaris, they all see a bright light raining down on them, even the supers seem to see it that same way. It's only when up close and personal that we see Solaris in their entirety and that has nothing to do with speed. In real life if you were to take a flashlight, turn it on, and move away eventually you wouldn't be able to see the bulb of the light anymore. However, if you were to get closer and closer till right in front of it, you'd be able to make out the bulb within the light. Go ahead and try it yourself (if you're fine with not seeing properly for a bit afterward). This isn't really support for immeasurable speed.

Peptocoptr27 said:
If my hypothetical scenario for Solaris’ omnipresence was a reality, would the hedgehogs have immeasurable speed or not? If so, then thier feat goes beyond that, and it’s still immeasurable. If not, then why? You say that omnipresence isn’t a speed, but a state of being that makes speed irrelevant. So then why did DarkDragon say that space-omnis can have finite speeds, and that regular people can avoid thier influence? Is it irrelevant or finite? Don’t get the wrong idea. I do agree that space-omnis can have limited reaction speeds, since they’re still bound by time, but time-omnis are whole other story. They’re like space-omnis, but on 4D scale, rather than a 3D one.
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I can't answer the first part of your question because I don't know what your hypothetical scenario for Solaris' omnipresence is. However, I can respond on the Dragon bit. The reason why someone with temporal omnipresence can have finite speeds is because while their position in time is stagnate, the amount of time it takes for them to change their position in space isn't. Solaris still moves a distance over time, and so does their attacks.

And that's pretty much my response.
 
Duedate8898 said:
They're automatically dodging the attacks from the past and that's why we don't see it: You can't actually prove that. Like, the only way for us to know if that's true is for it to be stated somewhere. That's why I keep stressing it being visually communicated to us, because without any form of statements, I feel it better to default to saying that this contradicts immeasurable speed since there's no hard indication given to us by the game or any other source that isn't our own extraploation.
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Thank you for your summary, DueDate.

In regards to this, I feel it not being shown that they avoided the past attacks can be credited to the fact that, since they're dodging said attacks, it doesn't need to be shown or stated in the first place. There's no reason for Sonic 06 to say, "they dodged past attacks!", or anything, when it can be inferred from the fact that they aren't getting hit by those attacks in the long run of things. It could specifically detail them being hit, and then dodging the same attack, but it also doesn't have to, to get the same point across, I believe. It's also Sonic 06, so really, you could argue them not properly detailing an aspect of something via raw gameplay could either be due to game design, or 06 being 06.
I do agree that the Hedgehogs can't have Type 2 acausality, nor Temporal Omnipresence of their own. ( Of course, to still make it entirely clear, I still stand with keeping immeasurable. )
 
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The_real_cal_howard said:
I mean tbh Solaris probably is just temporally omnipresent, which is what they meant with the whole "beyond time" thing, a la Lavos, and not actually immeasurable.

But I'm like so far removed from this that it's not even funny.

But seriously, what are the pro-immeasurable reasons? I'm not reading nine pages (or even one page).

There's also a ten to one chance that I'm not going agree with the other people of the anti-immeasurable side as I don't know their reasons and I make my own (that are influenced by my other sources). But I am against immeasurable. Tbh it'll probably the last thing I'm vocally against on here...
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Just read the above summaries, it isn't that hard, there was literally one 3 posts ago

Anyways about Dude's comment you are asking way too much, an unfinished 2006 game is not going to do exactly what you want in terms of powerscaling especially since it was not written with that purpose, especially over 15 years ago. Honestly I want you to list a video game that visually cominicates that they dodged past attacks that came during and before 2006, otherwise you are just asking for something unreasonable that would never be proved. At least I am happy you actualy provided reasoning
 
Theuser789 said:
Anyways about Dude's comment you are asking way too much, an unfinished 2006 game is not going to do exactly what you want in terms of powerscaling especially since it was not written with that purpose, especially over 15 years ago. Honestly I want you to list a video game that visually cominicates that they dodged past attacks that came during and before 2006, otherwise you are just asking for something unreasonable that would never be proved. At least I am happy you actualy provided reasoning
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And I understand that's a lot to ask because it's just an odd thing to show, but I feel it still must be asked for. We can't just give it a pass because it's unfinished nor because the developers don't think in terms of power scaling. What we should do is acknowledge that and accept that there is a lack of clear and explicit evidence for immeasurable speed.
 
Duedate8898 said:
And I understand that's a lot to ask because it's just an odd thing to show, but I feel it still must be asked for. We can't just give it a pass because it's unfinished nor because the developers don't think in terms of power scaling. What we should do is acknowledge that and accept that there is a lack of clear and explicit evidence for immeasurable speed.
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Except if you can't find any example of it from any other video game then it is an unreasonable request to ask for Sonic 06 to have it, since literally noone had it, I am asking it to give it a pass if there are no other examples of what you are asking, because the "evidence" you want would be impossible to even find in the first place
 
Does any other game from 2006 (or well in general) have immeasurable speed without statements or showings that indicate such? Because if they do, then they'll have to get the same treatment as Sonic and the rest are getting now. And if this territory has already been walked before and they managed to keep their ratings, then I would very much say that Sonic is in the clear.
 
I am asking to find a videogame that treats immesurable as you want, with it showing what you want, that is this:
Duedate8898 said:
And we never see any of them, while playing from their perspective, noticing themselves taking damage from the past and then avoiding it so they take no damage at all
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Unless your comment is a concession that aren't any and you are asking for the impossible
 
Yes, it does, it means you are making an unreasonable request, asking for the opposition to show evidence for something you don't have, it will be like if someone asked you to take a photo of a very far way planet to debunk aliens don't exist, even if noone else have did so. If you can't prove it, then we don't have to prove it either
 
Theuser789 said:
Yes, it does, it means you are making an unreasonable request, asking for the opposition to show evidence for something you don't have, it will be like if someone asked you to take a photo of a very far way planet to debunk aliens don't exist, even if noone else have did so. If you can't prove it, then we don't have to prove it either
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That doesn't make sense.

I'm asking for evidence to prove the claim of immeasurable speed.
And you're saying that because I don't have a case of such evidence being provided that you don't have to give the evidence to prove immeasurable speed? Is that right?
 
I knew it you were going to use something along of the lines of this point. No, this isn't about burden of proof, I am not asking you to prove that Sonic isn't immesurable, I am simply asking for other examples of such specific evidence you want so that we can truly hold Sonic 06 to those standards, which you have none. So no, that isn't right, I am not saying we don't need to give evidence in general, I am saying I don't need to give you your very specific evidence because it's a trick and there is no such evidence, you are asking me show something that doesn't exist, an unreasonable request. Is that clear? Do you understand that you are asking for is too much if you yourself, the one claiming, has no examples of what you request?
 
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Duedate8898 said:
I will admit fault here, because I personally thought it would just make sense by me saying that immeasurable doesn't solve the problem that temporally omnipresent attacks pose.
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Thank you. This sheds a more postive light on what I was starting to think of this site as a whole.
Duedate8898 said:
The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks.
If the attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time, then if any point in their own time ever overlaps with Solaris' attacks they would get hit. Even with immeasurable speed, you still have a past and a future. And immeasurable speed in of itself does not allow you to control the position of your past self, merely update your present to avoid things that incur upon them.
Click to expand...
Immeasurable speed does however, allow you to project your present self into the past and move there. If it also allows you to update your present and avoid things from happening in it like you said, doesn't that also support my point? Since that present would eventually become the past, and the new present would get replaced by what was formerly known as the future, to dodge an attack after already being struck by it is essentially the same thing as moving your past self out of harm's way. It looks like I had a stroke trying to write that sentence, and it must be hard to wrap your head around it from an outsider's perspective, but basically, I don't see how changing something that happened in your present and something that happened in your past is any different in this case, especially given the context. The past is nothing but a former present, and the future is nothing but a soon-to-be present.

Duedate8898 said:
And we never see any of them, while playing from their perspective, noticing themselves taking damage from the past and then avoiding it so they take no damage at all. So we have nothing but them dodging the attacks with no damage to support immeasurable, but that doesn't support immeasurable speed as I've illustrated above in this post.
Click to expand...
I agree with MysticMania and TheUser on this point
Duedate8898 said:
Instead, it would support one of two other things:

1. Temporal Omnipresence: With temporal omnipresence, the hedgehogs would be capable of moving their past, present, and future selves simultaneously to avoid these attacks. However, they can't have this because of two key reasons: The hedgehogs wouldn't be able to inhabit the same space as they're shown in the game and they would be able to see each other while battling.
Click to expand...
If temporal omnipresence allows them to dodge Solaris' attacks and overlap with them in space, I don't see why it wouldn't allow them to dodge and overlap each other. In additon, Super Shadow and Super Sonic couldn't see each other either during the Finalhazard boss fight. This is either because switching and resting is canon or because the devs didn't want to bother with having the hedgehog(s) you aren't playng as be controlled by an A.I when they would be too far away to see clearly anyway. But all of this is only a problem if we decide to go with the interpretation that the Super forms have thier own omnipresence, however. With immeasruable speed, none if this is an issue, since they can actively turn on and off thier pseudo-omnipresence whenever they want.
Duedate8898 said:
2. Acauaslity Type 2: Without having a future or past, the only point in time they would need to avoid an attack would be in the present. And in that case, the attack from their own perspective would have a finite speed due to the attacks only existing in their presence as far as they were concerned. This doesn't work solely because a later sonic game (Sonic Generations) shows us classic sonic who is said to be Modern Sonics past battling alongside him (both in super form). So either Sonic never had acausality or Sonic Generations retconned it, either way I don't think Sonic would qualify for it as he stands now.
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I'm personally of the opinion that the events of Generations caused a timeline split, which allowed classic Sonic to live out his own adventures seperate from his modern counterpart. This common iteration of time travel prevents paradoxes and is supported by Mania and Forces, but Sonic continuity is such a mess that I could be wrong on this one. Also, if this is true, we'd have to increase Sonic cosmology size to countless 2-B or possibly 2-A because it would comfirm that it operates on the many-worlds interpretation. That's why I also think type 2 acausality is a stretch. In addition, it doesn't explain how Shadow and Silver flew to different points in time.
Duedate8898 said:
Now I shall directly tackle a few points I believe directly wrong:

Immeasurable Speed simulates Temporal Omnipresence: With immeasurable speed, there is only one of you and it doesn't give you the ability to spread yourself throughout all of time. All it would do is allow you to move to all these points with no delay, which could create the illusion of Temporal Omnipresence without giving any of the actual effects of it. To be more specific, even if you were immeasurable you wouldn't be able to damage someone simultaneously throughout all of time, you'd just be able to make it look like you did.
Click to expand...
How? If immeasurable characters can travel anywhere anywhen in less than an instant, then they can travel to all of these points with no delay like you said. By doing so while rushing towards Solaris in physical space would allow them to strike him in every point in time at once. There's absolutely nothing stopping Super Sonic from doing that since his immeasurable speed aplies to his travel, reaction, and combat speed. This is the 4D equivalant of a an infinite speed character flying through the entire volume of the universe at top speed, occupying all of its space as a result and effectively matching a space-omni. There's nothing stopping infinite speed characters from doing that, so the same applies to immeasurable characters filling every point in time with thier presence and matching a time-omni.
Duedate8898 said:
They're automatically dodging the attacks from the past and that's why we don't see it: You can't actually prove that. Like, the only way for us to know if that's true is for it to be stated somewhere. That's why I keep stressing it being visually communicated to us, because without any form of statements, I feel it better to default to saying that this contradicts immeasurable speed since there's no hard indication given to us by the game or any other source that isn't our own extraploation.
Click to expand...
But it's the only option left, so that's proof by rule of elimination. Unless you want to go over the possibillity of them having thier own temporal omnipresence again? In addition, I have proof that temporal AoE by itself isn't enough to deal with Solaris while immeasurable speed by itself is. Yet, you're still pushing for temporal AoE to be the only upgrade, while saying that immeasurable speed should go away presumably to be replaced by the MFTL+ of thier 4-A key. That's hypocritical.
Duedate8898 said:
Seeing Solaris as anything more than a ball of light: Amy of all people specifically sees and points out Solaris's core. When everyone sees Solaris, they all see a bright light raining down on them, even the supers seem to see it that same way. It's only when up close and personal that we see Solaris in their entirety and that has nothing to do with speed. In real life if you were to take a flashlight, turn it on, and move away eventually you wouldn't be able to see the bulb of the light anymore. However, if you were to get closer and closer till right in front of it, you'd be able to make out the bulb within the light. Go ahead and try it yourself (if you're fine with not seeing properly for a bit afterward). This isn't really support for immeasurable speed.
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This isn't as relevent as I made it out to be, so I'll admit my fault here.
Duedate8898 said:
I can't answer the first part of your question because I don't know what your hypothetical scenario for Solaris' omnipresence is.
Click to expand...
I can't blame you for forgetting since there's so much gong on here. Here it is reitereated:
If Solaris existed in every point in time except for the most distant future and the earliest past, no one would argue against the hedgehogs needing immeasurable speed to dodge Solaris' attacks and blitz him, because they would need to dodge them by travelling from the very beginnng of time to the end of it in less than an instant.
Compare that to Solaris' absolute temporal omnipresence, and this hypothetical scenario is less impressive, yet still immeasurable. Disregarding the feat and placing the Super forms at a finite speed rank because it's too impressive is very dis-honest, especially when immeasurable speed can be obtained from upscaling to someone else who is immeasurable.
Duedate8898 said:
However, I can respond on the Dragon bit. The reason why someone with temporal omnipresence can have finite speeds is because while their position in time is stagnate, the amount of time it takes for them to change their position in space isn't. Solaris still moves a distance over time, and so does their attacks.
Click to expand...
Again, this doesn't make sense because Solaris' future movement is already in the past. This completely breaks the speed formula, because before Solaris even thinks about going somewhere in the future, he's already there, and he can see everything in front of him through all of time.
 
Theuser789 said:
I knew it you were going to use something along of the lines of this point. No, this isn't about burden of proof, I am not asking you to prove that Sonic isn't immesurable, I am simply asking for other examples of such specific evidence you want so that we can truly hold Sonic 06 to those standards, which you have none. So no, that isn't right, I am not saying we don't need to give evidence in general, I am saying I don't need to give you your very specific evidence because it's a trick and there is no such evidence, you are asking me show that doesn't exist, an unreasonable request. Is that clear? Do you understand that you are asking for too much if you yourself, the one claiming, has no examples of what you request?
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No it isn't asking too much, because that's the bar to entry. That's one of the ways in which immeasurable speed can be proven, and just because I don't know an instance of it happening doesn't mean you don't have to prove it. Because that bit of evidence is based in another that I can provide, a statement indicating that the characters essentially update themselves to avoid attacks after they've already landed or something of that nature.

And a verse that I just signed off on that does that is the Nasuverse with BB, and I quote:
Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though.
Click to expand...
So no, point still stands in that regard.
 
Duedate8898 said:
No it isn't asking too much, because that's the bar to entry. That's one of the ways in which immeasurable speed can be proven, and just because I don't know an instance of it happening doesn't mean you don't have to prove it.
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Then literally no verses can enter? Noone can be immesurable because noone fits your standards? Because if that's the the bar, and noone has met it then this feels like noone was meant to enter, like a scam
Duedate8898 said:
Because that bit of evidence is based in another that I can provide, a statement indicating that the characters essentially update themselves to avoid attacks after they've already landed or something of that nature.
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Did this statment come from a video game or a light novel? Because I asked it from a videogame, because Sonic 06 is a video game meant to be played and not a novel where those details are said.

Yeah just checked, that's from a visual novel, it's dishonest to hold a video game to the same standards as it
 
Theuser789 said:
Then literally no verses can enter? Noone can be immesurable because noone fits your standards? Because if that's the the bar, and noone has met it then this feels like noone was meant to enter, like a scam

Did this statment come from a video game or a light novel? Because I asked it from a videogame, because Sonic 06 is a video game meant to be played and not a novel where those details are said.

Yeah just checked, that's from a visual novel, it's dishonest to hold a video game to the same standards as it
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My point there is that a video game can provide a statement like the Nasuverse did. Also the Fate/EXTRA games are RPGS, not VN. What more, you asked for video games from that time period. Several verses have done other things to fit the immeasurable standards that I haven't outlined because those were never brought up as support within this thread.

Edit: To expand upon it, if it can be stated it can also be shown in some form or manner. And we're never given any visual indications or statements that directly imply retroactively making something true.
 
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Duedate8898 said:
We hold all verses under the same standards because all verses can provide evidence. Statements or showings.
Click to expand...

“showings.” Has a platformer ever showed, since you had used gameplay as an argument? RPGs are turn-based, at the end of the day, which doesn’t translate to a “real time” format.
 
Duedate8898 said:
My point there is that a video game can provide a statement like the Nasuverse did. Also the Fate/EXTRA games are RPGS, not VN.
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Was that from an actual videogame or a novel, because it's definitvely worded as such with the narration and everything, if it is a video game then I will concede that you aren't asking for the complete impossible, but only a very specific feat
 
Theuser789 said:
Was that from an actual videogame or a novel, because it's definitvely worded as such with the narration and everything, if it is a video game then I will concede that you aren't asking for the complete impossible, but only a very specific feat
Click to expand...
Look up Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC gameplay. PSP dungeon crawlers.
 
Duedate8898 said:
I also asked for a statement, either or works.
Click to expand...

So because there is no direct statement, we have to devolve our thinking to gameplay, even though there’s absolutely no way gameplay can show immeasurable.

Fate/Extra: Well, Gameplay doesn’t show immeasurable but a character said so, so they are immeasurable

Sonic: Well, Sonic is fighting a being that’s omnipresent throughout time, but since there is no direct statement about their speed, let’s use gameplay. Hm, interesting, gameplay shows they are moving below FTL, below HyperSonic. I think the Super Forms are only moving as fast as a car.
 
Then what other evidence is there for immeasurable speed besides believing (wrongly I think) that it's the only way for them to combat Solaris?
 
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CloverDragon03
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Sonic the Hedgehog CRT: Super Form Speed with a Side of Perfect Dark Gaia
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CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
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Finite Speed? That's Small Time! (Modern Base Sonic Speed CRT)
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AdamVhenJP
AdamVhenJP
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