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This thread proposes the removal of Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 for the Sailor Moon Universe, which was based on the arguments made in this previous thread. Credit to @MeiouHades for creating 80-90% of this.
To be more precise, the main cast is in a sea of beginnings within the cauldron wherein you can reincarnate and embark on a different history, rather than leaving the cauldron to return to present Earth. The context behind the "possibilities" statement is that the villain Chaos could reincarnate in the future after being erased in the cauldron, since that's what the cauldron's life-making power entails. The cauldron is also stated to be where destinies begin. That's not to say that "beginnings, "destinies," and "possibilities" are mutually exclusive, just that if you read through all the scans, the terms are clearly used interchangebly to describe the cauldron's reincarnation powers poetically. So overall, "Possibilities" is being used in the most broad 'there are new opportunities' sense possible. It's the same thing with the "potential" statement.
Statement 1: "Everything in the Heavens comes from a Star Seed.
Statement 2: "And not just stars." (stars here likely refers to actual stars since the previous statement is about Heaven/sky)
Statement 3: They comes in all shapes and sizes, and have different names.....but everything with life grows from a Star Seed.
Now pay careful attention to Statement 3 here. On the panel, you see that it is continued in two different text bubbles, but interpreted naturally, one can see that it is a single, continuous statement.
What does it say? Well, it says that they (the living things) all comes in different shapes, sizes and have different names, but everything with live/all living things also grow from Star Seeds. This is matters because the panel here does not say that Star Seeds are creating names, shapes and sizes, it directly states that although they all have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things do come from a Star Seed.
Now, why was this misinterpreted to mean that Star Seeds would create shapes and sizes? The answer lies in the English panel itself, it misses the word "although" which makes the distinction between statement 2 and statement 3 here. So the dialogue, more naturally, would be something like "And not just the stars, although they have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things also come from Star Seeds" which ironically is the EXACT thing Executor says, he included the word "although" because it is crucial to make that distinction here, and I do trust his judgement. To add insult to injury, we asked another Japanese native speaker for input, and they also confirmed that this scan does not indicate that star seeds are the origin of shapes, sizes, and names, but that the things that star seeds create have different shapes, sizes, and names.
As for creating Metallia, who's just an 'alien mass of solid darkness with no physical substance,' I fail to see how what is at best incorporeality qualifies for as an Independent Universal concept. Also, that Death Phantom scan says nothing about resentment being his "true form," nowhere are those words written. It only states that the planet Nemesis has been soaking up Phantom's resentment and using it for some kind of empathic manipulation. He even says that he's the planet itself. Nothing about "resentment being his true form."
In general, your kids in the future being erased if you are killed in the past is not enhanced existence erasure, that's a very standard outcome of causality in general. Indeed, if I kill someone in the past, in most fictional works, basically everything they would've done in the future would disappear. Furthermore, why is Chibi-Usa being erased relevant? With how the argument is phrased, doesn't this indicate that Tuxedo Mask's "concept" directly encompasses his daughter, who is also argued to have her own concept?
Moreover, this is the ideal time to mention an elephant in the room. So a "concept" is loosely defined on this site as an abstract essence that governs a part of reality. This broad definition could be scrutinized, since regular 4-D time could technically be thought of as an abstraction that governs reality, but that's the gist of it. Anyways, the original arguments are centered around star seeds governing reality, but overlook the important part of arguing that star seeds are abstract in nature in the first place. At best the original thread argues that star seeds can create intangible beings, but even ignoring my previous response to that, there's an obvious non-sequitur in that creating non-physical beings =/= being directly non-physical. Throughout the series, we've seen the silver crystal treated like a physical object that can be touched, removed, and placed physically, or even fall on the floor. They can even be placed inside glass containers, and there seems to be an instance of crystal being used as a reactor, capable of being accelerated via nuclear fusion. Same goes for star seeds in general. The place where star seeds are born, Sagittarius Zero Star, the location of the Galaxy Cauldron in the center of the Universe, also has physical phenomena like fog and extreme density. For contrast, as conveniently mentioned in the quote box above, there's a scene where Hotaru has to protect both souls and crystals as a disembodied spirit herself, and while the souls are depicted as ghost-like objects, the crystal is depicted as a physical object. There's simply not enough evidence to suggest that star seeds function as a metaphysical aspect on the level of abstract concepts, so all forms of conceptual manipulation for star seeds should be downgraded.
Agreements: @Theglassman12 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus
Neutrals:
Disagreements:
To scrutinize this statement, first things first: there is no mention of the Cauldron directly creating possibilities or potential in an abstract, metaphysical manner. These scans must be considered alongside their role in the story. The context here, for the 'possibilities' part, is referring to how Stars (which, as we know, includes living beings as well) here come to life, which then by itself brings along many possibilities with it. There's a reason why it says "Stars, and possibilities...", because as I said it isn't creating literal possibilities on its own, but rather it gives birth to Stars that themselves will go on to birth possibilities as well.
To be more precise, the main cast is in a sea of beginnings within the cauldron wherein you can reincarnate and embark on a different history, rather than leaving the cauldron to return to present Earth. The context behind the "possibilities" statement is that the villain Chaos could reincarnate in the future after being erased in the cauldron, since that's what the cauldron's life-making power entails. The cauldron is also stated to be where destinies begin. That's not to say that "beginnings, "destinies," and "possibilities" are mutually exclusive, just that if you read through all the scans, the terms are clearly used interchangebly to describe the cauldron's reincarnation powers poetically. So overall, "Possibilities" is being used in the most broad 'there are new opportunities' sense possible. It's the same thing with the "potential" statement.
Okay, now this is the main crux of the argument that we really need to address, if you're gonna read anything, just read this section and ignorance all else. For starters, we got Executor to translate this part for us and discussed its diction with him, so let's interpret and see what he and the panel itself say here.
Statement 1: "Everything in the Heavens comes from a Star Seed.
Statement 2: "And not just stars." (stars here likely refers to actual stars since the previous statement is about Heaven/sky)
Statement 3: They comes in all shapes and sizes, and have different names.....but everything with life grows from a Star Seed.
Now pay careful attention to Statement 3 here. On the panel, you see that it is continued in two different text bubbles, but interpreted naturally, one can see that it is a single, continuous statement.
What does it say? Well, it says that they (the living things) all comes in different shapes, sizes and have different names, but everything with live/all living things also grow from Star Seeds. This is matters because the panel here does not say that Star Seeds are creating names, shapes and sizes, it directly states that although they all have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things do come from a Star Seed.
Now, why was this misinterpreted to mean that Star Seeds would create shapes and sizes? The answer lies in the English panel itself, it misses the word "although" which makes the distinction between statement 2 and statement 3 here. So the dialogue, more naturally, would be something like "And not just the stars, although they have different shapes, sizes and names, all living things also come from Star Seeds" which ironically is the EXACT thing Executor says, he included the word "although" because it is crucial to make that distinction here, and I do trust his judgement. To add insult to injury, we asked another Japanese native speaker for input, and they also confirmed that this scan does not indicate that star seeds are the origin of shapes, sizes, and names, but that the things that star seeds create have different shapes, sizes, and names.
As for creating Metallia, who's just an 'alien mass of solid darkness with no physical substance,' I fail to see how what is at best incorporeality qualifies for as an Independent Universal concept. Also, that Death Phantom scan says nothing about resentment being his "true form," nowhere are those words written. It only states that the planet Nemesis has been soaking up Phantom's resentment and using it for some kind of empathic manipulation. He even says that he's the planet itself. Nothing about "resentment being his true form."
They do not "give rise" to ideals and abstractions, just that each Sailor Guardian represents a certain ideal. You need an actual statement to prove that each Sailor's crystal actually creates or "gives rise" to the ideals or abstractions that the crystal's bearer represents, you can't just assume this. The fact that Sailor Moon has dominion over the "moon" or Sailor Galaxia has dominion over "destruction" means nothing, you have to actually prove that they control the abstract ideas of their dominions, or else you're relying on circular arguments.
I've already addressed the possibilities part earlier. Now, creating all life and being the source of all abilities in a verse doesn't exactly qualify as evidence of an Independent universal concept on its own. It can be supporting evidence in some cases but that's about it. There's no actual evidence about "Shapes all of reality within their area of influence" as the standard page demands. As mentioned above with the whole "sailor guardians represent certain ideas" point, there's no evidence whatsoever about Star seeds shaping reality the same way concepts do (similar to how, say for instance, the concept of justice shapes all and any number of just acts).
Okay, now this part is the most bizarre for me. The evidence for the Star seeds being concepts independent from the reality they govern is.... their power being used by others who are not its Guardians...? Really now...? Let's address this one by one, firstly there's still no evidence here for "The reality that they govern..." part, so their power being used by others is a non-factor as far as that's concerned, it's a moot point. Secondly, the Sailor Guardians whose Crystals are being used, being dead here doesn't really mean much, as even the Sailor Crystals of Guardians (and its power) that are alive can be used by other beings as shown with the Silver Crystal earlier, in fact two can be used at the same time, the one from the future and the one from the past. This is not evidence of some "concept" that is independent from its "reality."
These are just the scans we use to justify most characters having Acausality via the Crystals. That's why standard erasure in the past doesn't erase them from the future, but if their Crystal is destroyed, then they are erased from the future as well (Acausality neg), and their actions are reverted too, hence Kamen's daughter dying in the future as a result of her dad dying too.
In general, your kids in the future being erased if you are killed in the past is not enhanced existence erasure, that's a very standard outcome of causality in general. Indeed, if I kill someone in the past, in most fictional works, basically everything they would've done in the future would disappear. Furthermore, why is Chibi-Usa being erased relevant? With how the argument is phrased, doesn't this indicate that Tuxedo Mask's "concept" directly encompasses his daughter, who is also argued to have her own concept?
This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence here, but let's start by pointing out that the interpretation of the second scan is editorialized here. Nowhere does she state that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn. Rereading the scan shows it's a very vague, poetic, self-encouraging statement about Hotaru having a greater purpose in the grand scheme of things than she realizes, and therefore needing to save others. Moreover, the arc is about Hotaru learning to value friendship mainly as a civilian, which works against the idea that her "bigger self" is her identity as Sailor Saturn, which regardless is a high-end interpretation of poetic text, used to formulate another high-end interpretation that her identity as Sailor Saturn means her star seed (which hadn't been introduced by this point in the manga) rather than in itself, still referring to having a purpose higher than herself as an individual.
Moreover, this is the ideal time to mention an elephant in the room. So a "concept" is loosely defined on this site as an abstract essence that governs a part of reality. This broad definition could be scrutinized, since regular 4-D time could technically be thought of as an abstraction that governs reality, but that's the gist of it. Anyways, the original arguments are centered around star seeds governing reality, but overlook the important part of arguing that star seeds are abstract in nature in the first place. At best the original thread argues that star seeds can create intangible beings, but even ignoring my previous response to that, there's an obvious non-sequitur in that creating non-physical beings =/= being directly non-physical. Throughout the series, we've seen the silver crystal treated like a physical object that can be touched, removed, and placed physically, or even fall on the floor. They can even be placed inside glass containers, and there seems to be an instance of crystal being used as a reactor, capable of being accelerated via nuclear fusion. Same goes for star seeds in general. The place where star seeds are born, Sagittarius Zero Star, the location of the Galaxy Cauldron in the center of the Universe, also has physical phenomena like fog and extreme density. For contrast, as conveniently mentioned in the quote box above, there's a scene where Hotaru has to protect both souls and crystals as a disembodied spirit herself, and while the souls are depicted as ghost-like objects, the crystal is depicted as a physical object. There's simply not enough evidence to suggest that star seeds function as a metaphysical aspect on the level of abstract concepts, so all forms of conceptual manipulation for star seeds should be downgraded.
Agreements: @Theglassman12 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus
Neutrals:
Disagreements:
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Why are you insulting us instead of trying to prove why your interpretations are correct lol.
