Garou vs Reinhard (15-5-1)

[Delusionaltx2]

Divine Protection to wake him up when he's in danger.

He's not just asleep here tho...he's being knocked out does it heal him by chance?

It's less stats more abilities. Like he can just gain the ability to force Garou to stop moving for a bit (Divine Protection of Coercion).

hows dat work?

 

[First_Witch]

If skill in fiction must always follow a real-world causal chain, then rain-dodging, bullet-timing, and dozens of other “skill feats” fall apart the same way concept cutting does, because none of them map cleanly onto biomechanics or physics. What makes them “skill” isn’t real causality but narrative causality: the author establishes a path of refinement (focus, perception, precision, discipline) and uses it to justify feats beyond the physical. If rain-dodging is valid skill because the story frames it as such, then concept cutting is no different, it’s just skill expressed at a metaphysical level rather than a physical one.

Great response, but incorrect. I will ignore the fact that you put rain-dodging next to bullet-timing and pretend like they are even remotely compareable in first place? Like humans can, given enough speed, do bullet-timing. Humans have literally on camera cut apart small projectiles traveling at high speed at them. Which is a good showcase of basic causal chain, but I digress. The mistake youre making is that you equate all fictional skill feats and think that the standards im arguing under would disqualify them, but that is simply not the case.

Lets illustrate this by dissecting both problem feats. Lets start with rain dodging, to see why this is a logical impossibility and not just a physicall impossibility. What does it entail to dodge rain? Let me preface this by me assuming the highest interpretation of the feat; Character A is currently in the middle of a rainstorm, no dry patch near him and he still remains perfectly dry, specificly through the art of physically dodging every individual raindrop. What would required for this to be possible? The ability to fit within the milimeter big area between individual rain drops. That is impossible. Not because humans can't do that, but because nothing the size of a human can do that period. Its not even a question of "skill", speed, intelligence or strength. Its just not doable. But fiction can make this doable, and in this case it was made doable. But as stated, no amount of physical stats can make this doable, including skill. This can't be demonstrated more easily than on the example of speed. Even if you were to move at lightspeed, it would still not be possible. And what do we call things that are not doable period, but still happen? Hax. This entire bogus applies to the specific idea of "Standing in the middle of a rainstorm, remaining there and still remain dry". If Character A were to, for example, create dry space by activly dispersing the rain through attacking, that would be perfectly doable (Not for real humans mind you). And there is where the idea of a causal chain comes in and why fixating on real life is incorrect, no one did it, but also misses the point.

Because if given keen enough senses, just enough speed to process what your senses see, just enough physical speed to act on your thoughts and a precise enough handling of your weapon to disperse the rain drops before they reach you, you can perform the feat. The causal chain from "Humans can, if they concentrate hard enough and train at their peak physicality long, catch things that are really really fast" to what I just described is simply enough "stats" (To simplify) in those specific categories. And I can claim this quite confidently because I know that feat is physically doable. I have a basis in real life from which i can move up to the fictional nonsense. There exist a path where I can, without reaching and bending, can move up. The contested feat would not even exist on the same plane as Skill as a whole, let alone be reachable from my starting point of real life.

Now lets come to concept cutting. I think cutting in general is a really good example of the causal chain. What is the real life limit of human cutting ability? Things harder than thick leather. Steel is out question. But in fiction, mountains get sliced like butter, let alone steel. But Those 2 still fall within the causal chain of increased cutting feats. Most importantly, those things can be physically harmed. Second, they can be interacted with with a sword. Thats all you need as a baseline assumption, because now you can move up from cutting leather to steel and higher and higher. A Cut is made out of bodily structure, precision and a fine enough blade. All 3 aspects can be scaled up near infinitly. If I have a fine enough edge that is also more durable than the material im cutting, have enough hand eye coordination to keep the blade impossible precise and enough structure to generate the kinetic energy necessary, you could cut steel. You could scale this up, and fiction HAS scaled this up plenty of time, until you reach the logical limit, which is probably going to be planck length or some shit like that i dont know, im not a scientist. Again, is this possible for humans? No, not really. But I can quantify what would be necessary for a human to perform such feats. I can't do that for concept cutting. Like, how much precision does your character need to cut concepts? How much force? How thin does your blade need to be?

Causally possible doesnt mean anything fictional has to go. Causally possible means that you could mechanically trace the ways in which the feat would work and quantify it.

Hope that helps

However if you disagree with all fictional skill feats that seem Implausible then

If you limit “skill” strictly to biomechanics and physics, then of course concept cutting isn’t skill — but that definition excludes almost every fictional martial feat ever written. Fiction doesn’t need to obey real causality; it only needs an internally consistent causal chain, and authors routinely establish that things like “dodging rain” or “cutting concepts” are trainable, repeatable, or differentiated by mastery. That’s exactly how “skill” functions in narrative: it’s the measure by which characters are separated in ability. So saying “none of them are skill” doesn’t resolve the issue, it just creates a definition of skill so narrow that it can’t be applied to fiction at all.

I have no idea why i split the reply like this so uh, see the big wall of text.

 

[First_Witch]

Ik but you can still equate it to things that are logically possible to use as a reference point to quantify the feat in question which in this case is rain dodging

we can do that through comparing it to danmaku

You can't quantify it is the whole issue. As for why, see my previos response @Crimsonobu, Im not paid enough to type so much text again.

 

[Zabazab]

He's not just asleep here tho...he's being knocked out does it heal him by chance?

I think being knocked out and being asleep are the same thing but, he is constantly being healed by lesser spirits in the atmosphere.

hows dat work?

He can receive almost any Divine Protection[2] that exists in the world if he feels he needs it, and even Divine Protections which don't exist[3] as Od Lagna creates and gives Divine Protections to him. Divine Protections are often either: combat-oriented, environmental, or useless poor jokes.[1] Reinhard's number of Divine Protections and ability to adapt are so outstanding that even if he were caught in a trap that was prepared to ensnare and kill the world's cleverest Witch, he would easily break through.[1] The existence that grants him Divine Protections is the root of the world,[29] the foundation of eternity,[30] the source of all mana,[31] and the will of the world itself,[32] the Od Lagna— an unimaginably vast[33] conceptual entity[32] which forges the world's unshakeable laws,[32] oversees the recycling of souls,[31] and is referred to as a mechanism for keeping the world from breaking.[31]

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You can't quantify it is the whole issue. As for why, see my previos response @Crimsonobu, Im not paid enough to type so much text again.

Your response to crimson is just the same thing, it's you saying it isn't logically possible while explaining why and saying therefore you can't quantify it because of said reasoning

I'm saying, while yes, the exact specifics of the feat itself aren't logically possible, you can still use its similarities to danmaku and equate it to that which is logically possible to quantify, therefore quantifying it even if it isn't logically possible, the reason why you can equate it to that i because your still doding a bunch of small objects at the end of the day weither its logically possible to irl or not does not change that and if it dosen't change that then it's still quantifiable

The only caveat is that rain dodging and dodging danmaku are the exact same thing now, in opposition to being different.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I think being knocked out and being asleep are the same thing but,

They aren't, when knocked out, your body is physically beyond its operating compacity

he is constantly being healed by lesser spirits in the atmosphere.

To what extent? is it mid healing for example?

 

[First_Witch]

Your response to crimson is just the same thing, it's you saying it isn't logically possible while explaining why and saying therefore you can't quantify it because of said reasoning

I'm saying, while yes, the exact specifics of the feat itself aren't logically possible, you can still use its similarities to danmaku and equate it to that which is logically possible to quantify, therefore quantifying it even if it isn't logically possible, the reason why you can equate it to that i because your still doding a bunch of small objects at the end of the day weither its logically possible to irl or not does not change that and if it dosen't change that then it's still quantifiable

The only caveat is that rain dodging and dodging danmaku are the exact same thing now, in opposition to being different.

O...okay... And how exactly are you quantifying Danmaku dodging...?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I think being knocked out and being asleep are the same thing but, he is constantly being healed by lesser spirits in the atmosphere.

Also I'm asking how the idea of him making garou unable to move works? How does or how would the divine projection manifest itself here? Would it do so as TK? Is it just paralysis inducement? what would the ability be exactly?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

O...okay... And how exactly are you quantifying Danmaku dodging...?

Simple, how many attacks you can dodge at once

In the case of rain dodging, you can dodge dozens to hundreds depending on where you are so that's how much you can dodge

 

[First_Witch]

Simple, how many attacks you can dodge at once

In the case of rain dodging, you can dodge dozens to hundreds depending on where you are so that's how much you can dodge

Right so the mechanics with which this happens simply doesn't matter to you then?

 

[Zabazab]

They aren't, when knocked out, your body is physically beyond its operating compacity

I'm pretty sure it's just your consciousness cutting off when your brain impacts your skull. But in any case Reinhard has better stamina than Garou, both in energy exertion and injury tolerance.

To what extent? is it mid healing for example?

It's High-Low. Can reattach severed limbs, restore broken bones or damaged organs, etc.

Also I'm asking how the idea of him making garou unable to move works? How does or how would the divine projection manifest itself here? Would it do so as TK? Is it just paralysis inducement? what would the ability be exactly?

It's a form of mind manip, exorcising a compulsive effect through the weight of words. It's practically a ripoff of Cursed Speech from JJK.

 

[Epiccheev]

Yeah, Garou's arguments about skill convinced and RE convinced me more, but at the same time Zabazab's arguments about Reinhard's stamina and DP against incap convinced me more.
Realistically this eventually turns into a stamina battle, since Garou can't kill Reinhard for good and also can't reliably incap, since even if he fought Reinhard to exhaustion and he fell asleep/got knocked out, Garou would have to just leave without interacting with him further and even then there's no Guarantee he'd sleep for the 24h needed for an incap win. This with the fact early on Reinhard would have the upper hand + get a good chance to hit Garou offguard with a conceptual spatial EE regen neg slash that would permanently harm him in the long run even with a graze would mean Reinhard still wins more times than not.
Reinhard FRA.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I'm pretty sure it's just your consciousness cutting off when your brain impacts your skull. But in any case Reinhard has better stamina than Garou, both in energy exertion and injury tolerance.

"External forces that affect head movement cause mechanical stress within the brain tissue, producing a sudden electric discharge or depolarization of nerve cells throughout the brain."

Actual stress is being put on the brain, causing a disconnect. Reinhard can't just wake up from that unless he wants to deal with severe brain damage.

It's High-Low. Can reattach severed limbs, restore broken bones or damaged organs, etc.

hmm, so it doesn't heal brain damage or severe organ damage (the things Garou is known for with his accupunture)

yea that won't cut it

It's a form of mind manip, exorcising a compulsive effect through the weight of words. It's practically a ripoff of Cursed Speech from JJK.

garou resists this through supernatural willpower then

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Yeah, Garou's arguments about skill convinced and RE convinced me more, but at the same time Zabazab's arguments about Reinhard's stamina and DP against incap convinced me more.
Realistically this eventually turns into a stamina battle, since Garou can't kill Reinhard for good and also can't reliably incap, since even if he fought Reinhard to exhaustion and he fell asleep/got knocked out, Garou would have to just leave without interacting with him further and even then there's no Guarantee he'd sleep for the 24h needed for an incap win.

Actually tank top master was straight up hospitalized after this which would be more than enough to suggest the incap would last for 24 hrs

that and the fact reinhard seems to have nothing for this basically guarentees the incap

This with the fact early on Reinhard would have the upper hand + get a good chance to hit Garou offguard with a conceptual spatial EE regen neg slash that would permanently harm him in the long run even with a graze would mean Reinhard still wins more times than not.
Reinhard FRA.

its been established that Reinhard can't use that here actually

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I think it might be a good idea to bring in someone knowledgeable, or?

As others have said, it's pretty much allowed. I've done it plenty of times myself.

If you search hard enough, you'll find a lot of matches that were added with higher-tier things restricted. Ex: Thanos (Gauntlet restricted) vs Hela or Naruto (Kurama Mode restricted) vs Po.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

As others have said, it's pretty much allowed. I've done it plenty of times myself.

If you search hard enough, you'll find matches that were added with higher-tier things restricted.

The wacky thing for me is just how it's written, and specifically mentions optional equipment directly under it, but eh if you say it's fine, let's go with that.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Holy hell, 5 pages. I was gone for 2 hours man

So far, the conclusion has been that Garou cant beat Reinhard..wow that is so surprising. I could not have guessed that in a million years

Anyways, for you @Delusionaltx2 rain dodging is superior because while its physically possible for you to dodge a "rain of arrows" or danmaku because there will always be some physical gap for you, in an actual rainstorm there isnt enough gap for a human to go through so while it may appear as though rain of arrows and a rain is the same. it really isnt

Plus Reinhard isnt limited to just that, he can also dodge sand in a sandstorm, rain of light, and with some difficulty, mists of light. which i dont even know what that means, mist is like particles in the air, unless tappei was talking about dodging photons or smth

Now, onto the next part, the reason it is valid for cqc is because he can do the same thing MUCH more easily when a big ass fist is coming at him, this makes it physically impossible for non rain dodgers to hit him. If that wasnt enough for you, Olbart a much weaker character has been able to do so in cqc before, dodging a "physically impossible to dodge attack"
now about the skill scaling, 99% of the feats you see are upscalable to Reinhard because of the flow method which chains every skill feat upto the heavenly sword, that being Reid Astrea himself.

how do the rest of the verse which perform the feats scale to Reinhard then? well, most of them cant even reach Theresia's level even with an eternity of training who also cant reach Reinhard's level after training for an eternity

After going through the skill blog i posted above, i can confidently say that Garou is ass in skill relative to the rz verse. If you want to fully understand it, do check it out. That way you will have a good understanding of how things hold upto him.

I will drop the link again for you:

Re:Zero: The Path to The Heavenly Sword

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

 

[Lort15]

holy yap it seems like reinhard got outvoted isn't the grace already reached to end too? if yall are still debating it's ok too ig

 

[MrTayman616]

So far, the conclusion has been that Garou cant beat Reinhard..wow that is so surprising. I could not have guessed that in a million years

Two person reached that conclusion i guess (which i have no idea why honestly, maybe i missed something?)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

isn't the grace already reached to end too?

No, grace started today, so it will only end tomorrow.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Anyways, for you @Delusionaltx2 rain dodging is superior because while its physically possible for you to dodge a "rain of arrows" or danmaku because there will always be some physical gap for you, in an actual rainstorm there isnt enough gap for a human to go through so while it may appear as though rain of arrows and a rain is the same. it really isnt

No, the fact that it isn't logically possible to do that irl means trying to equate it as anything higher than that makes it unquantifiable, which is why scaling it to danmaku is the most appropriate method since we know thats something that IS quantifiable

Plus Reinhard isnt limited to just that, he can also dodge sand in a sandstorm, rain of light, and with some difficulty, mists of light. which i dont even know what that means, mist is like particles in the air, unless tappei was talking about dodging photons or smth

There technically isn't really a limit when it comes to danmaku dodging so all this stuff just gets encompassed as well

Now, onto the next part, the reason it is valid for cqc is because he can do the same thing MUCH more easily when a big ass fist is coming at him, this makes it physically impossible for non rain dodgers to hit him.

As already brought up many years ago, garou simply has the precision to counter rain dodging

If that wasnt enough for you, Olbart a much weaker character has been able to do so in cqc before, dodging a "physically impossible to dodge attack"

being deada*** you can't quantify that without context

Is the logic because it's FTE, or has some other form of mannerisms that make it physically impossible to dodge?, Because if it's physically impossible to dodge in the truest sense, it makes no sense to assume Reinhard can dodge it without it being an unquantifiable contradiction

now about the skill scaling, 99% of the feats you see are upscalable to Reinhard because of the flow method which chains every skill feat upto the heavenly sword, that being Reid Astrea himself.

Basically all the feats presented are from human garou who gets skill diffed by monster garou so badly its not even funny

Monster garou has like 40+ martial arts, each and all individually refined to a far superior degree than human garou + his own martial art that combines all of his other martial arts to make his own perfect fist

how do the rest of the verse which perform the feats scale to Reinhard then? well, most of them cant even reach Theresia's level even with an eternity of training who also cant reach Reinhard's level after training for an eternity

Define an eternity in this case because it clearly seems hyperbolic here

is it a year? a century?

 

[Zabazab]

"External forces that affect head movement cause mechanical stress within the brain tissue, producing a sudden electric discharge or depolarization of nerve cells throughout the brain."

Actual stress is being put on the brain, causing a disconnect. Reinhard can't just wake up from that unless he wants to deal with severe brain damage.

Just getting getting KOd isn't gonna fry your brain. Have you never gotten knocked out before?

hmm, so it doesn't heal brain damage or severe organ damage (the things Garou is known for with his accupunture)

Getting your liver or kidneys blown up is fatal. But Reinhard can fight just fine with such wounds before eventually dying and reviving. He won a 2v1 against the Admirer and Beast of the End with a sword plunged in his guts. In fact, bleeding makes Reinhard stronger due to DP of Bloodshed. Literally nothing Garou has will incapacitate Reinhard, and killing him activates Phoenix.

Irregardless of the skill debate, Garou literally cannot bring down Reinhard. He just gets stamina/immortality-diffed no matter how you slice it.

garou resists this through supernatural willpower then

When a user who had never used Coercion before tried it on the shinobi Yae Tenzen (who herself has insane willpower just on account of being a shinobi), it still froze her long enough that someone below her level could launch a free attack.

its been established that Reinhard can't use that here actually

It's not got conceptslop or EE, but Reinhard can still use an omnidirectional spatial-cutting duraneg attack.

 

[AthelChan]

holy **** its been 11 pages, the skillslop agenda really ******* sells

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

No, the fact that it isn't logically possible to do that irl means trying to equate it as anything higher than that makes it unquantifiable, which is why scaling it to danmaku is the most appropriate method since we know thats something that IS quantifiable

There technically isn't really a limit when it comes to danmaku dodging so all this stuff just gets encompassed as well

As already brought up many years ago, garou simply has the precision to counter rain dodging

aint no way you pulled up him negging bullets by physically deflecting it, point at it with a serious face and said "this negs rain dodging"

being deada*** you can't quantify that without context

Is the logic because it's FTE, or has some other form of mannerisms that make it physically impossible to dodge?, Because if it's physically impossible to dodge in the truest sense, it makes no sense to assume Reinhard can dodge it without it being an unquantifiable contradiction

there isnt enough physical space to dodge, as phoenks said it. Its like trying to fit a meter cube into a centimeter cube.

Basically all the feats presented are from human garou who gets skill diffed by monster garou so badly its not even funny

okay? not as big of a skill gap as mentioned above.

Monster garou has like 40+ martial arts, each and all individually refined to a far superior degree than human garou + his own martial art that combines all of his other martial arts to make his own perfect fist

good for him, Ley had 10k+ lifespans worth of data which he sifted through and combined all at once to become warlock ley and he isnt even considered a transcendent. Unironically, Garou has no stand in this department.

Define an eternity in this case because it clearly seems hyperbolic here

is it a year? a century?

an infinite amount of time spent training. is that enough context for you?

 

[First_Witch]

holy ** its been 11 pages, the skillslop agenda really ***** sells

skillslop on top. Its there actual discussion still happens

 

[Delusionaltx2]

aint no way you pulled up him negging bullets by physically deflecting it, point at it with a serious face and said "this negs rain dodging"

There are so many bullets fired directly at one direction it appears more as a beam than actual bullets and he deflected each and every single one...yes this negs rain dodging

there isnt enough physical space to dodge, as phoenks said it. Its like trying to fit a meter cube into a centimeter cube.

Chat if want to appeal to it this way than as phoenks and many others said before it becomes unquantifiable making the feat useless so idk what ur getting at here by bringing up this argument

okay? not as big of a skill gap as mentioned above.

So "Reinhard upscales from everyone else mentioned by a huge margin!" is magically better justification for upscale than "garou has mastered 40+ different martial arts all on a level that would neg early series garou while also fusing each and every single one of those martial arts to form his perfect fist"....

good for him, Ley had 10k+ lifespans worth of data which he sifted through and combined all at once to become warlock ley and he isn't even considered a transcendent. Unironically, Garou has no stand in this department.

Experience does not equate to skill (although it does help it's not the only factor)

There is still likes like actual mechanical skill and on the fly thinking (Adaptability basically) that this feat doesn't encompass

Garou has demonstrated significantly better showings in both of these

an infinite amount of time spent training. is that enough context for you?

Oh so the characters are physical incapable of doing whatever they can do? That isn't even skill

Mosquito girl can fly yet even with an infinite amount of time mumen rider can never learn how to fly. Is mosquito girl now a skill demon???

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Here's a better analogy

Maki zenin cannot use cursed energy and therefore even with an infinite amount of time she will never be better at using CE than miwa.

Is miwa now some skill demon when it comes to CE manipulation? No, maki just likes the physical capacity to do that do you see the issue here?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

There are so many bullets fired directly at hit it appears more as a beam than actual bullets and he deflected each and every single one...yes this negs rain dodging

You do not grasp what rain dodging is if you think blocking and deflecting is in anyway similar. This is completely possible because he absolutely blitzes the hell out of those bullets and can individually deflect them with his hands unlike rain dodging

Chat if want to appeal to it this way than as phoenks and many others said before it becomes unquantifiable making the feat useless so idk what ur getting at here by bringing up this argument

it doesnt "become useless" it just isnt classified as conventional skill anymore. Any attempts to ignore it by calling it "unquantifiable" is unironically cope. Just say garou cant handle that shi and move on.

So "Reinhard upscales from everyone else mentioned by a huge margin!" is magically better justification for upscale than "garou has mastered 40+ different martial arts all on a level that would neg early series garou while also fusing each and every single one of those martial arts to form his perfect fist"....

Reinhard is an eternity above the rest of the cast which perform those feats so yeah, its definitely better

Experience does not equate to skill (although it does help it's not the only factor)

There is still likes like actual mechanical skill and on the fly thinking (Adaptability basically) that this feat doesn't encompass

Garou has demonstrated significantly better showings in both of these

You probably think this because of the lack of context so it isnt necessarily your fault but Ley batenkaitos is the gourmet of gluttony and everybody he has eaten was a major figure in some way or the other. He prefers quality over quantity and just some techniques he used were:

• Palm of the Fist King: A powerful strike that ruptures a person's internal organs as well as outright destroys physical objects like swords. It can also bypass mana based defensive techniques. The move originally belong to Neiji Rockheart. [this can also powerrnull, dura neg and basically no diff any attack possible\

• Leaper: A technique which is a short range teleport, that can be used in succession. The move originally belonged to Dorkell.

• Carnivorous Beast: Using the Memories of a certain serial killer, he can strengthen his body to a beyond-superhuman level– allowing his limbs to destroy all and his skin to deflect even holy blades. This physicality originally belonged to Beli Heinelga.

There are numerous more such as the invisible wind blades which summon layered invisible blades which are undetectable on a much deeper level

Now imagine 10k+ of such techniques and they are all blended together to form the perfect martial arts. Garou has only been able to do so with 40 abilities and he was still primarily using his fist of flowing water technique

Oh so the characters are physical incapable of doing whatever they can do? That isn't even skill

Mosquito girl can fly yet even with an infinite amount of time mumen rider can never learn how to fly. Is mosquito girl now a skill demon???

False equivalence and a deep misunderstanding of the subject at hand. This doesnt even need a rebuttal

 

[Epiccheev]

When is grace hitting?

 

[Catbowtie]

Sometime tomorrow

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

When is grace hitting?

Tomorrow.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You do not grasp what rain dodging is if you think blocking and deflecting is in anyway similar. This is completely possible because he absolutely blitzes the hell out of those bullets and can individually deflect them with his hands

Yeah no, characters death gattling sees as comparable to him were able to keep up with and apply pressure on garou and that's before poisoned.

unlike rain dodging

You act like rain dodging / danmaku dodging also can't potentially be done through being faster

it doesnt "become useless" it just isnt classified as conventional skill anymore.

So you can quantify it above conventional skill in a logical manner??! Please tell me, how so exactly?

Any attempts to ignore it by calling it "unquantifiable" is unironically cope. Just say garou cant handle that shi and move on.

So ur argument to saying it's unquantifiable is just saying "it isn't unquantifiable that's just...it's cope!" and moving on, not a good look on ur part

Reinhard is an eternity above the rest of the cast which perform those feats so yeah, its definitely better

So Reinhard can do things physically/magically impossible for the rest of the cast, as already explained this isn't skill nor does it make him special.

You probably think this because of the lack of context so it isnt necessarily your fault but Ley batenkaitos is the gourmet of gluttony and everybody he has eaten was a major figure in some way or the other. He prefers quality over quantity and just some techniques he used were:

1. internal damage
2. Short range teleportation
3. Statistics amplification

There are numerous more such as the invisible wind blades which summon layered invisible blades which are undetectable on a much deeper level

Now imagine 10k+ of such techniques and they are all blended together to form the perfect martial arts.

So uh...you mentioned a bunch of abilities not martial arts and also garou perfect fist is actually acknowledged on his profile as using real martial arts techniques not just abilities

If he's combining a bunch of abilities into things I don't see how that's nearly as impressive as using martial arts to this degree

Garou has only been able to do so with 40 abilities and he was still primarily using his fist of flowing water technique

Brother, these are straight up stated to be martial arts techniques and portrayed as such, you can either look at the profile that literally shows him combining everything into a singular stance or read chapter 155 of the manga

False equivalence and a deep misunderstanding of the subject at hand. This doesnt even need a rebuttal

I don't think you understand the implications of being unable to do something with infinite time. that literally means the characters physically cannot do it or don't have the means too. No matter how skilled you are if you have infinite time to learn something and you're being given adequate training it makes no sense for the characters to be unable to learn it unless they lack the physical ability or the means too meaning this isn't much of a skill feat

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You can't dodge rain by being faster, there is literally not enough space to dodge...

Whether its skill or some nonsense being called skill doesn't really negate that it can't be done via being faster.

It is an impossible feat just like Reinhard can dodge all the sand in a sandstorm, i agree we shouldn't call it skill, its not, but it is still an ability he has.

As for Ley, he has gained the skills of numerous people including martial artist and magicians, some of stuff listed ie teleportation isn't skill, other stuff like causing internal damage is. Ley has all those abilities and combined it to create his own style of martial arts, which allows him to react to and counter stuff used against him, but somehow Ram through quote and quote skill, beats up Ley.

And wow this thread is on 11 pages... I think the skill debate really is going nowhere.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You can't dodge rain by being faster, there is literally not enough space to dodge...

You can in fiction if you like it to danmaki dodging as a means of quantification

Whether its skill or some nonsense being called skill doesn't really negate that it can't be done via being faster.

Again if you liken it to dodging danmaku the yes it becomes possible

It is an impossible feat just like Reinhard can dodge all the sand in a sandstorm, i agree we shouldn't call it skill, its not, but it is still an ability he has.

Doesn't really matter since you'd either have to like it to danmaku in which case garou is just precise enough to hit him or you say it's unquantifiable slop in which case the feat is an outlier

As for Ley, he has gained the skills of numerous people including martial artist and magicians, some of stuff listed ie teleportation isn't skill, other stuff like causing internal damage is.

Ok that makes more sense than just saying their all skill

Ley has all those abilities and combined it to create his own style of martial arts, which allows him to react to and counter stuff used against him, but somehow Ram through quote and quote skill, beats up Ley.

This kinda depends on how much out of those thousands of abilities are done through skill in oppose to just bring abilities

All of garous 40+ martial arts are just well...martial arts so their all done through raw skill

Since you basically conceded that some of these are abilities and others are just done through raw skill that kinda begs the question on how many were done through raw skill

And wow this thread is on 11 pages... I think the skill debate really is going nowhere.

I mean garou long wins atp (A ratio of 12:5 is hard to come back from) so yea it's almost pointless to argue

I'm just holding it down ig to make sure the argument stands

 

[LaserPrecision]

Isn't the rain dodging and dodging every grain of sand in a sandstorm done via logic manipulation? Why don't ya'll just get that on the page, makes it way easier. I remember someone sending an excerpt that they're so skilled that they literally defy logic, which is what allows them to dodge things that are logically impossible to dodge. That would settle every issue here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Isn't the rain dodging and dodging every grain of sand in a sandstorm done via logic manipulation? Why don't ya'll just get that on the page, makes it way easier. I remember someone sending an excerpt that they're so skilled that they literally defy logic, which is what allows them to dodge things that are logically impossible to dodge. That would settle every issue here.

There was a statement about Cecilus being able do anything he can imagine, hence why he can do impossible stuff, so more like subjective reality.

Back to the rain dodging feats, from a while back i remember someone posted about there being like millions of rain drops within something like 1mm or some nonsense, someone correct me if I am wrong, but there is literally no place to dodge. As for precision the type of precision Re Zero top tiers operate on is to such an extent they can incapacitate your arm/leg, avoiding all your bones, nerves, blood vessels and muscles, which again seems nonsensical...

 

[Epiccheev]

Any technology too advanced cannot be distinguished from magic
Any skillslop too advanced cannot be distinguished from toonforce.

 

[LaserPrecision]

There was a statement about Cecilus being able do anything he can imagine, hence why he can do impossible stuff, so more like subjective reality.

I think that'd be reality warping. Subjective Reality is for stuff involving fiction and reality.

But that can just be a facet of said logic manip. I don't remember the scan, but I know there was an explicit statement about them defying logic, so I do think that should just be added to the profiles with the description elaborating it allows them to dodge logically impossible to evade attacks.

As for precision the type of precision Re Zero top tiers operate on is to such an extent they can incapacitate your arm/leg, avoiding all your bones, nerves and muscles, which again seems nonsensical...

That could also be added under logic manipulation as an application of it. I don't know if logic manipulation has a page yet, but they ARE going to make a page out of it soon if they haven't already. So if it's not, ya'll can just list it as law manipulation since logic manip is currently a subset of it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Let me see if I can gather up some scans/quotes to post into a CRT.

I think this whole rain dodging/logic breaking stuff has been brewing for way too long, we should properly index it, at which point we can stop having arguments about skill, which isn't really skill, but logic manipulation...

 

[LaserPrecision]

Let me see if I can gather up some scans/quotes to post into a CRT.

I think this whole rain dodging/logic breaking stuff has been brewing for way too long, we should properly index it, at which point we can stop having arguments about skill, which isn't really skill, but logic manipulation...

Good idea. Then we don't need to worry about these arguments spanning pages anymore. May wanna ask ZabZab for scans since I think they were the ones who posted the scans IIRC