Damn Uchiha - Narutoverse God Tiers Speed Revision (Part 2)

[Testarossa002]

The title reflects my constant mood throughout the creation of this thread

Anyway
Sandbox here
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Testarossa002/Speed_Revision_2_(Naruto)
Relevant background threads:

• MAS "Multiplier"
• Urashiki feat

Scaling Notes:

• The Sub-Relativistic characters like Konohamaru scale to Kakashi’s feat (0.028 c)
• The lowest FTL+ characters like Kido scale 1000x the Sub-Relativistic characters (28 c)
• The highest FTL+ characters like Sasuke and Naruto’s Majestic Attire Susano’o scale 2x the highest FTL+ characters (56 c)
• The lowest Massively FTL characters scale to Urashiki’s feat (432 c)
• The highest Massively FTL characters like Isshiki scale 10x the highest FTL+ characters (560 c)

As always, the linked characters in the scaling notes are the origin of their respective ratings. Click on it to understand the scaling better

Spoiler: Explanation

Explanation/Changes

• Sakura and Shin are no longer scaling off Sasuke and Naruto. They are, instead, scaling to a new scaling chain that starts from Sakura herself
• Limited Code and Koji no longer scale to Delta in their base selves. They, instead, are scaling to her in their amped states (Kama and Sage Mode respectively) to mirrot what’s currently in their AP section.
• Boruto and Kawaki Kama selves are noticeably absent from the sandbox. Same with Borushiki. They woukd be covered by Nierre in a follow-up thread
• As shown in the sandbox, Fused Momoshiki is not rated as being twice as fast despite merging with Kinshiki. This is because he displayed no clear increase in speed compared to Kinshiki; he only dispatched the Kage after obscuring their vision with dust, rather than through raw speed. This contrasts with the anime version, where he blitzed Darui (who even commented on his speed) with little dust present. While the anime carries significant canonical weight, the manga depiction takes precedence. Furthermore, Sasuke was able to keep up with both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki, suggesting little to no speed difference between them.

Spoiler: TL;Dr

Tl;dr
If you can't go through the entire sandbox, this is for you

• Sakura = Shin
• Kido = Sakura < Naruto = Toneri < Kaguya =< Momoshiki/Kinshiki
• Kido =< Kakashi = Base Koji

These are the 3 entry routes to the FTL+ scaling. It’s straightforward from there onwards.

Appreciation to @Nierre @Godernet @Ghostimuscrime for the extensive back n forth we had on sections of this scaling.
Agree: @Nierre @Godernet (except MAS scaling)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

agree

 

[karo_senpaii]

The title reflects my constant mood throughout the creation of this thread

Anyway
Sandbox here
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Testarossa002/Speed_Revision_2_(Naruto)
Relevant background threads:

• MAS "Multiplier"
• Urashiki feat

Scaling Notes:

• The Sub-Relativistic characters like Konohamaru scale to Kakashi’s feat (0.028 c)
• The lowest FTL+ characters like Kido scale 1000x the Sub-Relativistic characters (28 c)
• The highest FTL+ characters like Sasuke and Naruto’s Majestic Attire Susano’o scale 2x the highest FTL+ characters (56 c)
• The lowest Massively FTL characters scale to Urashiki’s feat (432 c)
• The highest Massively FTL characters like Isshiki scale 10x the highest FTL+ characters (560 c)

As always, the linked characters in the scaling notes are the origin of their respective ratings. Click on it to understand the scaling better

Spoiler: Explanation

Explanation/Changes

• Sakura and Shin are no longer scaling off Sasuke and Naruto. They are, instead, scaling to a new scaling chain that starts from Sakura herself
• Limited Code and Koji no longer scale to Delta in their base selves. They, instead, are scaling to her in their amped states (Kama and Sage Mode respectively) to mirrot what’s currently in their AP section.
• Boruto and Kawaki Kama selves are noticeably absent from the sandbox. Same with Borushiki. They woukd be covered by Nierre in a follow-up thread
• As shown in the sandbox, Fused Momoshiki is not rated as being twice as fast despite merging with Kinshiki. This is because he displayed no clear increase in speed compared to Kinshiki; he only dispatched the Kage after obscuring their vision with dust, rather than through raw speed. This contrasts with the anime version, where he blitzed Darui (who even commented on his speed) with little dust present. While the anime carries significant canonical weight, the manga depiction takes precedence. Furthermore, Sasuke was able to keep up with both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki, suggesting little to no speed difference between them.

Spoiler: TL;Dr

Tl;dr
If you can't go through the entire sandbox, this is for you

These are the 3 entry routes to the FTL+ scaling. It’s straightforward from there onwards.

Appreciation to @Nierre @Godernet @Ghostimuscrime for the extensive back n forth we had on sections of this scaling.
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

I seem to recall both neirre and fine point agreeing to fused momoshiki having a 2x multiplier too. Other than that looks good

 

[sageof8paths]

The title reflects my constant mood throughout the creation of this thread

Anyway
Sandbox here
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Testarossa002/Speed_Revision_2_(Naruto)
Relevant background threads:

• MAS "Multiplier"
• Urashiki feat

Scaling Notes:

• The Sub-Relativistic characters like Konohamaru scale to Kakashi’s feat (0.028 c)
• The lowest FTL+ characters like Kido scale 1000x the Sub-Relativistic characters (28 c)
• The highest FTL+ characters like Sasuke and Naruto’s Majestic Attire Susano’o scale 2x the highest FTL+ characters (56 c)
• The lowest Massively FTL characters scale to Urashiki’s feat (432 c)
• The highest Massively FTL characters like Isshiki scale 10x the highest FTL+ characters (560 c)

As always, the linked characters in the scaling notes are the origin of their respective ratings. Click on it to understand the scaling better

Spoiler: Explanation

Explanation/Changes

• Sakura and Shin are no longer scaling off Sasuke and Naruto. They are, instead, scaling to a new scaling chain that starts from Sakura herself
• Limited Code and Koji no longer scale to Delta in their base selves. They, instead, are scaling to her in their amped states (Kama and Sage Mode respectively) to mirrot what’s currently in their AP section.
• Boruto and Kawaki Kama selves are noticeably absent from the sandbox. Same with Borushiki. They woukd be covered by Nierre in a follow-up thread
• As shown in the sandbox, Fused Momoshiki is not rated as being twice as fast despite merging with Kinshiki. This is because he displayed no clear increase in speed compared to Kinshiki; he only dispatched the Kage after obscuring their vision with dust, rather than through raw speed. This contrasts with the anime version, where he blitzed Darui (who even commented on his speed) with little dust present. While the anime carries significant canonical weight, the manga depiction takes precedence. Furthermore, Sasuke was able to keep up with both Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki, suggesting little to no speed difference between them.

Spoiler: TL;Dr

Tl;dr
If you can't go through the entire sandbox, this is for you

These are the 3 entry routes to the FTL+ scaling. It’s straightforward from there onwards.

Appreciation to @Nierre @Godernet @Ghostimuscrime for the extensive back n forth we had on sections of this scaling.
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

agree with everything except the fused momoshiki stuff he VERY CLEARLY gets a speed increase.

We are giving individual shots of every kage registering and noticing his presence before he proceeds to blitz and one shot them, despite having a prolonged clashes on equal footing in base.

The anime then makes it even clearer with the way he completely man handles a suppressed sasuke WHILE DEALING WITH BASE NARUTO, EVEN WHEN SASUKE SNUCK HIM. This same surpressed sasuke is the one kinshiki was going band for band and arguably losing to and getting mocked by the entire arc.

To say he got no improvement in speed is incredibly disengenous.

 

[Damage3245]

To say he got no improvement in speed is incredibly disengenous.

The sandbox doesn't say he got no improvement in speed. It says he's faster than before.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Seems good

 

[HelloThere1089]

Either I'm blind, or the statistics values are a mess.

 

[sageof8paths]

The sandbox doesn't say he got no improvement in speed. It says he's faster than before.

explanation says
“This is because he displayed no clear increase in speed compared to Kinshiki;” In the manga, which i believe is false for reasons above, and that “Sasuke who kept up with kinshiki can keep up with fused momoshiki” When this is blatantly false in the manga, which for some reason is being used as the primary canon in this instance, but even if we do use that, i still believe the op is downplaying for no reason.

but there’s a clear false equivalence and cherry picking of feats between the manga and anime. SASUKE DOES NOT keep up with momoshiki at all in the manga, he just snuck a one hit after naruto already sent him flying, the second momoshiki actually engages him, he gets overwhelmed, in the manga.

In the anime however, the sasuke that kept up with kinshiki gets fodderized, then later on blatantly keeps up with him but it’s made clear that he has obviously powered up from seconds ago by activating his mangekyo sharingan and lightning cloak.

Momoshiki has WAY more speed increase feats than the MAS, which i agree should also be a 2x speed. It seems like unreasonable downplay,

fused momo should get 2x increase as well.

 

[Nierre]

Sasuke does keep up with Fused Momoshiki. He gets one hit on Fused Momoshiki and then proceeds to cut up his Jutsu and get overwhelmed by numbers, not because they're 2x faster than him like many people want to believe.

No, Fused Momoshiki is not 2x faster than Kin. Fused Momoshiki in the manga caught the Kage off guard by utilizing smoke to his advantage to one-shot them (he is than Kin, not denying that), but when we see his performance against Sasuke, it's clear there isn't a gap that showcases that he's much much faster than the likes of Kin.

The anime and the movie iterations of the fight are VERY different than the manga's.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I have the following questions:
1. Naruto jumps from 28c to 112c in MAS. How?
2. Sasuke is 56c in MAS. Why is he slower than Naruto inside MAS?
3. Did Kakashi's first gate multiplier get scrapped for his new era key?
4. Isshiki goes from 28c to 112c again (but still FTL+ for some reason). Where is this 4x multiplier?
5. if Isshiki is 112c, then his Suck-unahikona should be 1120c.
Just to confirm, the scaling chain is: Kaguya = 28C<Fused Momoshiki~Naruto and Sasuke<MAS = 2xmultiplier< Jigen<Isshiki<Sukunahikona correct?

 

[karo_senpaii]

I have the following questions:
1. Naruto jumps from 28c to 112c in MAS. How?
2. Sasuke is 56c in MAS. Why is he slower than Naruto inside MAS?
3. Did Kakashi's first gate multiplier get scrapped for his new era key?
4. Isshiki goes from 28c to 112c again (but still FTL+ for some reason). Where is this 4x multiplier?
5. if Isshiki is 112c, then his Suck-unahikona should be 1120c.
Just to confirm, the scaling chain is: Kaguya = 28C<Fused Momoshiki~Naruto and Sasuke<MAS = 2xmultiplier< Jigen<Isshiki<Sukunahikona correct?

It's a mistake. All 112c values are supposed to be 56c

 

[Nierre]

yeah I think there was a mistake in some of the ratings

 

[sageof8paths]

Sasuke does keep up with Fused Momoshiki. He gets one hit on Fused Momoshiki and then proceeds to cut up his Jutsu and get overwhelmed by numbers, not because they're 2x faster than him like many people want to believe.

getting one hit on your opponent directly after he’s just gotten two pieced and sent flying, doesn’t mean you’re keeping up with him and even if it was, the anime makes it clear that sasuke has powered up, just like naruto did. Sasuke in the manga previously couldn’t even cut scratch him with a full sword slash on the neck even when he was off guard. he clearly got stronger.

No, Fused Momoshiki is not 2x faster than Kin. Fused Momoshiki in the manga caught the Kage off guard by utilizing smoke to his advantage to one-shot them

I literally explained and sent scans of the kage lirerally all registering his presence before he’s proceeds to blitz them. the smoke should not be a factor in them blocking his attacks.

he is than Kin, not denying that), but when we see his performance against Sasuke, it's clear there isn't a gap that showcases that he's much much faster than the likes of Kin.

The anime and the movie iterations of the fight are VERY different than the manga's.

Can we also stop acting like a 2x speed increase difference is night and day?

Why are we also using the manga’s 5 page fight interpretation as the primary interpretation and COMPLETELY ignoring the entire episode devoted to the fight, that everyone agrees is the superior version of the fight.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I'm also in favor of fused momoshiki being a 2x multiplier. My reason is as follows.
1. It is accepted that Otsutsuki level fusions and amps are treated as a boost in all stats.
2. Fused Momoshiki is an Otsutsuki level amp.
So unless he has antifeats, he should by default have a 2x amp in speed. The stuff mentioned in OP would be relevant if there was no general rule of giving such amps. But since there is, the contrary should be proven. Momoshiki beating all the Kage with dust doesn't seem like an antifeat. He can beat them any way he wants. None of the Kage really tagged him. So there is nothing to suggest he scales to them in speed. Manga Momoshiki doesn't need to show a superiority in speed. He just needs to not have anti feats. Because we aren't arguing for a fused momoshiki amp to exist. The amp already falls under a general rule.

 

[Nierre]

getting one hit on your opponent directly after he’s just gotten two pieced and sent flying, doesn’t mean you’re keeping up with him and even if it was, the anime makes it clear that sasuke has powered up, just like naruto did.

Momoshiki had stopped himself in the air before Sasuke threw his punch. He wasn't off guard or mid movement. He turned around and saw Sasuke and Sasuke sent him flying.

I literally explained and sent scans of the kage lirerally all registering his presence before he’s proceeds to blitz them. the smoke should not be a factor in them blocking his attacks.

The only Kage that arguably registered his presence is Darui and Gaara.

The fact that Gaara can keep up with Fused Momoshiki and NOT outspeed Base Momoshiki brings credence to the fact that it's not a two times multiplier in speed.

Can we also stop acting like a 2x speed increase difference is night and day?

Why are we also using the manga’s 5 page fight interpretation as the primary interpretation and COMPLETELY ignoring the entire episode devoted to the fight, that everyone agrees is the superior version of the fight.

A 2x difference is a 2x difference.

Because the manga is the main canon? What kind of question is that? Regardless of whether the anime has a better portrayal we've never picked the anime versions over the manga. That's not a valid reason to do so. We don't do that for the Isshiki fight, we don't do that for the Jigen fight, and we surely won't be doing it here.

 

[Nierre]

I'm also in favor of fused momoshiki being a 2x multiplier. My reason is as follows.
1. It is accepted that Otsutsuki level fusions and amps are treated as a boost in all stats.
2. Fused Momoshiki is an Otsutsuki level amp.
So unless he has antifeats, he should by default have a 2x amp in speed. The stuff mentioned in OP would be relevant if there was no general rule of giving such amps. But since there is, the contrary should be proven. Momoshiki beating all the Kage with dust doesn't seem like an antifeat. He can beat them any way he wants. None of the Kage really tagged him. So there is nothing to suggest he scales to them in speed. Manga Momoshiki doesn't need to show a superiority in speed. He just needs to not have anti feats. Because we aren't arguing for a fused momoshiki amp to exist. The amp already falls under a general rule.

I agreed in that thread that it would be looked at in a case by case basis because of this.

Anti feats:
Sasuke fights Kinshiki three times. Sasuke then proceeds to fight and keep up with Fused Momoshiki.
Gaara keeps up with Base Momoshiki, then proceeds to react and block an attack from Fused Momoshiki.


Mind you, the same people that are saying a 2x speed difference isn't a big deal are here claiming that Fused Momoshiki blitzed the Kage, when he absolutely didn't blitz Gaara, Darui arguably perceived him (so it wasn't even a blitz), Chojuro got smoke diffed, and Kurotsuchi just got beat down. Kurotsuchi's performance against Fused Momoshiki was less indicative of him being far faster, but more indicative of him being WAY stronger, which is why he's able to knock her out in one blow and the rest of the Kage.

 

[sageof8paths]

Momoshiki had stopped himself in the air before Sasuke threw his punch. He wasn't off guard or mid movement. He turned around and saw Sasuke and Sasuke sent him flying.

he still needed to completely turn around in order to block the punch as opposed to a head on clash.

The only Kage that arguably registered his presence is Darui and Gaara.

kurorsuchi definitely did, and got fodderized, despite her overwhelming kinshiki.

The fact that Gaara can keep up with Fused Momoshiki and NOT outspeed Base Momoshiki brings credence to the fact that it's not a two times multiplier in speed.

Gaara never fought base momoshiki head on, he merely created steps for darui, and even if he did so what? momoshikig came lunging at gara from like a dozen meters away, all gara did was create a sand wall infront of him, that doesn’t mean he’s as fast.

A 2x difference is a 2x difference.

so why’re we pretending like a 2x difference is automatically needa to be a perception blitz across all cases??

Because the manga is the main canon?

debatable on whether it’s the MAIN canon, is there ever even a statement like this.

What kind of question is that? Regardless of whether the anime has a better portrayal we've never picked the anime versions over the manga. That's not a valid reason to do so. We don't do that for the Isshiki fight, we don't do that for the Jigen fight, and we surely won't be doing it.

Neither of the fights have the night snd day difference the momoshiki fight does.

 

[Kaydee1648]

Sasuke does keep up with Fused Momoshiki. He gets one hit on Fused Momoshiki and then proceeds to cut up his Jutsu and get overwhelmed by numbers, not because they're 2x faster than him like many people want to believe.

No, Fused Momoshiki is not 2x faster than Kin. Fused Momoshiki in the manga caught the Kage off guard by utilizing smoke to his advantage to one-shot them (he is than Kin, not denying that), but when we see his performance against Sasuke, it's clear there isn't a gap that showcases that he's much much faster than the likes of Kin.

The anime and the movie iterations of the fight are VERY different than the manga's.

I don’t get the idea that sasuke comfortably keeps up with Fused Momoshiki. Considering the fact that the supposed jump in speed between Momoshiki and fused Momoshiki, is not significant. Infact, let’s go over the course of Sasuke’s “performance” against Momoshiki.

• His first feat against fused Momoshiki comes after Naruto had just used KSPSM and sent Momoshiki flying. While Momoshiki was still midair, Sasuke appeared with Shunshin and knocked him away. It should be noted that Momoshiki was unbalanced, hadn’t regained his footing, and didn’t expect Sasuke to be there. Sasuke being able to do this while being half as fast is very logical.
• The second is Sasuke cutting Momoshiki’s wood dragon. While I disagree that the wood dragon should scale to Fused Momoshiki’s speed, I’ll just assume it’s the same speed for now. In this scenario, Sasuke was able to swing his sword over a shorter distance than the wood dragon traveled, yet he was eventually outsped by it. Just like how we don’t treat every lightspeed reaction as lightspeed, and since it depends on how the feat in question was performed, I don’t see why we should treat this differently. Sasuke was clearly inferior in speed to Momoshiki’s wood dragon but could still react to it, which is very possible if Sasuke is only 1/2 as fast and has an advanced stage of precognition.

With that said, I believe Sasuke shouldn’t scale to fused Momoshiki, at least, not casually. So it’s either;
Scenario 1: Sasuke gets his previous 28c and unquantifiably higher with Shunshin or Chidori
Scenario 2: Sasuke stays at 28c and possibly scales to Momoshiki 2x speed with Shunshin and variants

 

[Nierre]

he still needed to completely turn around in order to block the punch as opposed to a head on clash.

If he was 2x faster he'd have no problem doing so.

kurorsuchi definitely did, and got fodderized, despite her overwhelming kinshiki.

She saw him as he sent Chojuro flying and tried to fight back and couldn't.

She didn't "overwhelm" Kinshiki. she threw a punch at him which she was able to do thanks to Chojuro and Sasuke's help.

Gaara never fought base momoshiki head on, he merely created steps for darui, and even if he did so what? momoshikig came lunging at gara from like a dozen meters away, all gara did was create a sand wall infront of him, that doesn’t mean he’s as fast.

Dozens of meters away? Darui was not far from Gaara, and even from the panel where Gaara SEES Fused Momoshiki, he's in front of him - not far at all.

debatable on whether it’s the MAIN canon, is there ever even a statement like this.

Because the current chapters of Two Blue Vortex are building on the contents we got from the manga in Next Generations? I'm not sure I get this question, why wouldn't the manga be the main canon. Unless you're saying the manga isn't canon at all (which.. why wouldn't it be) I don't get your point.

 

[sageof8paths]

I don’t get the idea that sasuke comfortably keeps up with Fused Momoshiki. Considering the fact that the supposed jump in speed between Momoshiki and fused Momoshiki, is not significant. Infact, let’s go over the course of Sasuke’s “performance” against Momoshiki.

• His first feat against fused Momoshiki comes after Naruto had just used KSPSM and sent Momoshiki flying. While Momoshiki was still midair, Sasuke appeared with Shunshin and knocked him away. It should be noted that Momoshiki was unbalanced, hadn’t regained his footing, and didn’t expect Sasuke to be there. Sasuke being able to do this while being half as fast is very logical.
• The second is Sasuke cutting Momoshiki’s wood dragon. While I disagree that the wood dragon should scale to Fused Momoshiki’s speed, I’ll just assume it’s the same speed for now. In this scenario, Sasuke was able to swing his sword over a shorter distance than the wood dragon traveled, yet he was eventually outsped by it. Just like how we don’t treat every lightspeed reaction as lightspeed, and since it depends on how the feat in question was performed, I don’t see why we should treat this differently. Sasuke was clearly inferior in speed to Momoshiki’s wood dragon but could still react to it, which is very possible if Sasuke is only 1/2 as fast and has an advanced stage of precognition.

With that said, I believe Sasuke shouldn’t scale to fused Momoshiki, at least, not casually. So it’s either;
Scenario 1: Sasuke gets his previous 28c and unquantifiably higher with Shunshin or Chidori
Scenario 2: Sasuke stays at 28c and possibly scales to Momoshiki 2x speed with Shunshin and variants

Scenario 3: Sasuke is 28c with 3 tomoe sharingan, but 56c with mangekyo Sharingan and/or lightning cloak, like the anime would have us believe.

 

[Nierre]

His first feat against fused Momoshiki comes after Naruto had just used KSPSM and sent Momoshiki flying. While Momoshiki was still midair, Sasuke appeared with Shunshin and knocked him away. It should be noted that Momoshiki was unbalanced, hadn’t regained his footing, and didn’t expect Sasuke to be there. Sasuke being able to do this while being half as fast is very logical.

I'm charitable to the opinion it's Shunshin tbh, I've mentioned that before but it doesn't really matter to me whether that's the case or not.

Momoshiki had already stopped himself in the air when Sasuke got behind him. If you think he got snuck, sure.

The second is Sasuke cutting Momoshiki’s wood dragon. While I disagree that the wood dragon should scale to Fused Momoshiki’s speed,

...? Why would it be slower.

The second is Sasuke cutting Momoshiki’s wood dragon. While I disagree that the wood dragon should scale to Fused Momoshiki’s speed, I’ll just assume it’s the same speed for now. In this scenario, Sasuke was able to swing his sword over a shorter distance than the wood dragon traveled, yet he was eventually outsped by it. Just like how we don’t treat every lightspeed reaction as lightspeed, and since it depends on how the feat in question was performed, I don’t see why we should treat this differently. Sasuke was clearly inferior in speed to Momoshiki’s wood dragon but could still react to it, which is very possible if Sasuke is only 1/2 as fast and has an advanced stage of precognition.

I don't agree that he was outsped, I think he was overwhelmed because there was alot of wood dragons.

Also, if the dragons are slower then it makes no sense that Sasuke got outsped if he's just as fast + has the Sharingan like you're claiming (mind you, he's not using his Sharingan here, so that point isn't even relevant). He'd have no issues dealing with them if they were slower than Fused Momoshiki.

 

[sageof8paths]

If he was 2x faster he'd have no problem doing so.

based on what head canon? u also keep ignoring the fact that sasuke is blatantly just stronger than he was seconds ago, how would any punch be able to even do any damage if a sword slash did nothing to a weaker form??

She saw him as he sent Chojuro flying and tried to fight back and couldn't.

exactly my point, kinshiki was not able to react to such an attack but fused momoshiki completely caught the punch. and overwhelmed her.

She didn't "overwhelm" Kinshiki. she threw a punch at him which she was able to do thanks to Chojuro and Sasuke's help.

ok and fused momoshiki easily reacted when kinshiki couldn’t.

Dozens of meters away? Darui was not far from Gaara, and even from the panel where Gaara SEES Fused Momoshiki, he's in front of him - not far at all.

the actual number is irrelevant, the point is Gaara OBVIOUSLY needed to travel a far shorter distance to create the wall than momoshiki needed to reach him. ASIDE FROM THAT, gaara has no feats against base momoshiki or kinshiki so what’s this arguement completely falls flat on both faces.

Because the current chapters of Two Blue Vortex are building on the contents we got from the manga in Next Generations? I'm not sure I get this question, why wouldn't the manga be the main canon. Unless you're saying the manga isn't canon at all (which.. why wouldn't it be) I don't get your point.

my point is there’s no official statement placing the manga above the anime or vice versa, especially in boruto’s case where the anime does a lot more supplementary stuff to expand on the manga’s content, so completely ignoring one for the sake of downplay isn’t fair.

 

[karo_senpaii]

I have the following questions:
1. Naruto jumps from 28c to 112c in MAS. How?
2. Sasuke is 56c in MAS. Why is he slower than Naruto inside MAS?
3. Did Kakashi's first gate multiplier get scrapped for his new era key?
4. Isshiki goes from 28c to 112c again (but still FTL+ for some reason). Where is this 4x multiplier?
5. if Isshiki is 112c, then his Suck-unahikona should be 1120c.
Just to confirm, the scaling chain is: Kaguya = 28C<Fused Momoshiki~Naruto and Sasuke<MAS = 2xmultiplier< Jigen<Isshiki<Sukunahikona correct?

It's a mistake. All 112c values are supposed to be 56c

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

When's the next LS revision :333

 

[KingTempest]

I don't intend to stay for too long but I don't think this is strong evidence for a 2x increase in speed at all. People merging and increasing in stats doesn't mean that their stats are by default merged.

Now I can give grace for the AP due to things like chakra merging and whatnot, but speed is such a complicated concept that 2 people merging proportionally increasing speed is something that needs to be blatantly stated for it to happen.

 

[sageof8paths]

I don't intend to stay for too long but I don't think this is strong evidence for a 2x increase in speed at all. People merging and increasing in stats doesn't mean that their stats are by default merged.

Now I can give grace for the AP due to things like chakra merging and whatnot, but speed is such a complicated concept that 2 people merging proportionally increasing speed is something that needs to be blatantly stated for it to happen.

there’s already been a thread about this which accepted chakra fusion being a 2x increase in speed as well bro.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I agreed in that thread that it would be looked at in a case by case basis because of this.

Anti feats:
Sasuke fights Kinshiki three times. Sasuke then proceeds to fight and keep up with Fused Momoshiki.
Gaara keeps up with Base Momoshiki, then proceeds to react and block an attack from Fused Momoshiki.


Mind you, the same people that are saying a 2x speed difference isn't a big deal are here claiming that Fused Momoshiki blitzed the Kage, when he absolutely didn't blitz Gaara, Darui arguably perceived him (so it wasn't even a blitz), Chojuro got smoke diffed, and Kurotsuchi just got beat down. Kurotsuchi's performance against Fused Momoshiki was less indicative of him being far faster, but more indicative of him being WAY stronger, which is why he's able to knock her out in one blow and the rest of the Kage.

I think the Sasuke argument comes closest to an actual antifeat. However I don't think that's enough. In the manga, Sasuke only interacts with Fused Momo twice. Once when he attacks Momo from behind after he is pushed back by Naruto. And second when he is attacked by those long dragon things. Due to how speed works, the dragon feat can be explained away as aim dodging. And the first one is simply Momoshiki not focusing on Sasuke until the last moment. So I don't think this is enough to claim that Sasuke scales to Fused Momo in speed.

That said, the scaling is definitely messy. Because if Sasuke doesn't scale to Fused Momo, then he's 28c when fusing in MAS. Naruto in SPSM should be 56c. So do we treat MAS as a 1.5x boost?

 

[karo_senpaii]

I don't intend to stay for too long but I don't think this is strong evidence for a 2x increase in speed at all. People merging and increasing in stats doesn't mean that their stats are by default merged.

Now I can give grace for the AP due to things like chakra merging and whatnot, but speed is such a complicated concept that 2 people merging proportionally increasing speed is something that needs to be blatantly stated for it to happen.

If it was rejected I'm fine with that. The issue is it is already accepted but they're saying he didn't outspeed people enough to justify a 2x speed increase

 

[HelloThere1089]

It's a mistake. All 112c values are supposed to be 56c

I know. You already stated once before.

 

[Kaydee1648]

I'm charitable to the opinion it's Shunshin tbh, I've mentioned that before but it doesn't really matter to me whether that's the case or not.

Momoshiki had already stopped himself in the air when Sasuke got behind him. If you think he got snuck, sure.

It’s both shunshin and an offguard feat, to show you how unimpressive the feat was.

I don't agree that he was outsped, I think he was overwhelmed because there was alot of wood dragons.

Also, if the dragons are slower then it makes no sense that Sasuke got outsped if he's just as fast + has the Sharingan like you're claiming (mind you, he's not using his Sharingan here, so that point isn't even relevant). He'd have no issues dealing with them if they were slower than Fused Momoshiki.

I’ll drop the slower “wood dragon” as it’d just clog up the thread for now.

They were not a-lot of wood dragons, we saw like only 3 get to him, and Sasuke had already finished slicing 2 but couldn’t react to the 3rd one because it got too close. That’s a blatant sign of inferiority.

Scenario 3: Sasuke is 28c with 3 tomoe sharingan, but 56c with mangekyo Sharingan and/or lightning cloak, like the anime would have us believe.

I don’t disagree with this

 

[Damage3245]

If it was rejected I'm fine with that. The issue is it is already accepted but they're saying he didn't outspeed people enough to justify a 2x speed increase

The general principle being accepted doesn't mean it is universally accepted for all cases if there is reason and evidence to think otherwise.

 

[KingTempest]

there’s already been a thread about this which accepted chakra fusion being a 2x increase in speed as well bro.

If it was rejected I'm fine with that. The issue is it is already accepted but they're saying he didn't outspeed people enough to justify a 2x speed increase

???????? can yall link me a thread?

Also didn't Momoshiki (fused) be kept up with by Base and KCM Naruto? How does that work?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Actually yeah, if the Mangekyo scaling has no antifeats then that works

 

[HelloThere1089]

Also didn't Momoshiki (fused) be kept up with by Base and KCM Naruto? How does that work?

If you can call what Naruto did "keeping up" then yeah I kept up with the goth baddie last night

 

[Nierre]

based on what head canon? u also keep ignoring the fact that sasuke is blatantly just stronger than he was seconds ago, how would any punch be able to even do any damage if a sword slash did nothing in a weaker form??

What do you mean "based on what headcanon" if Fused Momoshiki is 2x faster then he should be able to dodge and block an attack from someone 2x slower??

why exactly is Sasuke stronger than before???

Firstly, we're talking speed here. Secondly, his punch literally did nothing, yeah. All it did was send him flying but did no damage. I'm sure Sasuke is painfully aware that his sword slash did nothing, but he's not going to just stand there because he did no damage. The fact that he was able to send him flying proves it's way better than just standing around.

exactly my point, kinshiki was not able to react to such an attack but fused momoshiki completely caught the punch. and overwhelmed her.

ok and fused momoshiki easily reacted when kinshiki couldn’t.

For starters, Kinshiki was mid swing. He saw her but just didn't react in time.

But also just because you get attacked that does not mean you cannot be comparable or scale. You're acting like because Kinshiki got sent flying by Kurotsuchi and Fused Momoshiki didn't that means they can't be the same in speed.

the actual number is irrelevant, the point is Gaara OBVIOUSLY needed to travel a far shorter distance to create the wall than momoshiki needed to reach him. ASIDE FROM THAT, gaara has no feats against base momoshiki or kinshiki so what’s this arguement completely falls flat on both faces.

Gaara scales to Darui for keeping up with Base Momoshiki.

 

[Nierre]

And second when he is attacked by those long dragon things. Due to how speed works, the dragon feat can be explained away as aim dodging.

Aim dodging? Based on what?

 

[Damage3245]

???????? can yall link me a thread?

Also didn't Momoshiki (fused) be kept up with by Base and KCM Naruto? How does that work?

This thread in the OP.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Aim dodging? Based on what?

Not exactly that, since he didn't dodge anything. But the distance was big enough that he had time to time his attacks accordingly. The principle was the same in my head. My bad

 

[Nierre]

They were not a-lot of wood dragons, we saw like only 3 get to him, and Sasuke had already finished slicing 2 but couldn’t react to the 3rd one because it got too close. That’s a blatant sign of inferiority.

That isn't a blatant sign of inferiority at all

If Naruto and Sasuke are fighting and Sasuke blocks every punch but one punch from Naruto that does not make him inferior. That doesn't negate the fact that he could react to, pull out his sword, and swing his sword twice before getting attacked by the third.

 

[HelloThere1089]

pull out his sword, and swing his sword twice

I should get some sleep