Damn Uchiha - Narutoverse God Tiers Speed Revision (Part 2)

[Kaydee1648]

It just doesn't. All we see is his shoulder in the panel prior to Naruto getting sent flying by a kick. We literally don't know how far up his leg was at all. And even if he was standing still it doesn't take away from the circumstance Naruto was in as I had mentioned earlier.

In the panel that Naruto sees momoshiki we could still see that momoshiki head position is perfectly vertical, and when Momoshiki actually kicks Naruto, his head bends to about 95 degrees, indicating he was still when Naruto saw him/he didn’t drastically move much inbetween what we saw in the panel prior.

Naruto and Base Momoshiki have one valid interaction where Naruto just did one kick and jumped away to carry Boruto.

And in that valid interaction, he still couldn’t tag momoshiki, but against FM he could; Intercept, block, dodge and even counter. One denotes a superior performance.

If Naruto dodged Fused Momoshiki once, hypothetically, that wouldn't be indicative of him being faster, that would make him AT LEAST comparable/equal to him in speed, unless further context dictates otherwise.

What? you’re literally saying Momoshiki is faster than FM here, which nulls the entire idea of them combining in the first place.

The performances isn't even comparable. Naruto was actually fighting Fused Momo and they each both did multiple moves rather than one simple gesture to get his kid out the way so he can actually fight the Otsutsuki.

You’re just being contradictory here, because not long ago you emphasized on the panel because momoshiki easily dodged Naruto without looking. So what will you pick? Is momoshiki faster than Naruto or is base Naruto faster than Momoshiki

Sasuke can still keep up with Naruto and fight equally with him even if he's weaker (he's not slower, they're equal like I've been saying this whole time).

More the so reasons that Naruto having any significant feat against FM should be an outlier.

 

[Testarossa002]

As I have been repeating on Discord, the anime version of events has disillusioned many of us (myself included) about how the fight actually unfolded. I linked the anime version in the OP. Compare it with the manga version here

Manga	Anime
Smokescreen	No smokescreen
Gaara and Darui were close	Shockwave threw them a significant distance away
Darui gets sneaked and jumped	Darui gets blitzed with clear line of sight and a much farther distance away from FM. Even commenting on his speed
Chojuro and Kuro still blinded by smokescreen and didn't know what was happening	They see Gaara get manhandled (say nothing about not seeing gaara or FM) and Chojuro gets blitzed
Kuro had somewhat similar showings in both albeit with different combat sequence
No need to go on here because its very clear how different Nard/Sauce vs FM went in both version

 

[Nierre]

What? you’re literally saying Momoshiki is faster than FM here, which nulls the entire idea of them combining in the first place.

You’re just being contradictory here, because not long ago you emphasized on the panel because momoshiki easily dodged Naruto without looking. So what will you pick? Is momoshiki faster than Naruto or is base Naruto faster than Momoshiki

I wasn't trying to emphasize that Momoshiki is faster than Fused Momoshiki. What I was trying to emphasize was that Momoshiki and Fused Momoshiki are both comparable in speed to Naruto.


Look, I really can't continue this back and forth with both of you forever, and I understand the the manga iteration isn't the best and Ikemoto's early fight sequences were trash, so I can understand why there's alot in these chapters we disagree on, and even both of you who disagree with me have different interpretations of how the scaling should look like. I'm not really all that interested on rehashing points I've already said on these two pages because I'd just be a broken record, so unless there's something new I don't think I'll continue this debate. I just don't think we'll be convincing each other. I have exams coming up under a month so I can't spend so much time on this thread especially since I have thread I want to churn out before this time next month but im severely behind schedule - obviously i have no one to blame but myself but all that to say that I'll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Testarossa002]

Let's get your votes before you leave

 

[Nierre]

oh right

just checked the updated values. everything looks alright to me

 

[Kaydee1648]

I totally disagree with fused Momoshiki not being faster than his base self.
I agree with everything else

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Isn't it fine to just wave off all Base Naruto and Fused Momoshiki interactions as outliers, and base the scaling on the actual fight i.e Naruto and Sasuke vs Fused Momo? I think Fused Momo, Base Momo, Base Naruto and KSPSM Naruto all having comparable speed is... a bit of a stretch, to say the least.

 

[Testarossa002]

Isn't it fine to just wave off all Base Naruto and Fused Momoshiki interactions as outliers, and base the scaling on the actual fight i.e Naruto vs Sasuke vs Fused Momo? I think Fused Momo, Base Momo, Base Naruto and KSPSM Naruto all having comparable speed is... a bit of a stretch, to say the least.

Naruto interacted more with FM in base than he did in SPSM. Maybe SPSM is the outlier (kidding)
You can say it's a stretch but it is what's shown. Everybody from Kinshiki to V1 Jigen. There isn't any noticeable speed difference among the characters in between. There is but not to the point where they can't hang with each other. Naruto was performing at similar levels in base and cloaked against Delta. It's not until V2 Jigen/BM Nard/Daemon that the speed gap becomes rather blatant. Maybe a writer's issue? I wouldn't know

 

[Godernet]

I'm still of the opinion that Susano'o and MAS aren't really physical speed amps tbh (outside of the Susano'o arrow, which he never really uses in this key)

Not only is that never really implied or shown by the story

But Jigen also says that Susano'o's speed isn't really impressive.

Right before he effortlessly blasts Sasuke through it, showing no real contradiction with that assessment.

Other than that, I agree with the thread.

 

[HelloThere1089]

I'm still of the opinion that Susano'o and MAS aren't really physical speed amps tbh (outside of the Susano'o arrow, which he never really uses in this key)

Not only is that never really implied or shown by the story

But Jigen also says that Susano'o's speed isn't really impressive.

Right before he effortlessly blasts Sasuke through it, showing no real contradiction with that assessment.

Other than that, I agree with the thread.

Sasuke's own defense > Susanoo ngl

Edit: Also when was Susanoo argued for a speed amp. Am I missing info.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

But Jigen also says that Susano'o's speed isn't really impressive.

Just means that their avatars are not impressive (in comparison to himself) as individual avatars, rather than MAS, don't it?

Sasuke's own defense > Susanoo ngl

Personally, Sasuke's Susano'o, at least in Boruto, is just a massive additional defense, rather than an end-all-be-all defense tbh.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Personally, Sasuke's Susano'o, at least in Boruto, is just a massive additional defense, rather than an end-all-be-all defense tbh.

I was mostly joking. Susanoo even if more defensive than Sasuke's skin still would break easier than Sasuke's body. Simply because of pressure = force/area

 

[Samlex1234]

Following

 

[Godernet]

Just means that their avatars are not impressive (in comparison to himself) as individual avatars, rather than MAS, don't it?

Not really, to Jigen/Isshiki, his superiority to Naruto and Sasuke is a foregone conclusion.

In this scene, he's assessing Susano'o and Kurama Mode as Naruto and Sasuke going all out, and wants to see what that looks like.

After Sasuke swings his comment about it not being fast should be in reference to what he previously perceived was Sasuke not going all out.

That's why, after his speed comment, he questions its durability rather than pondering its power in comparison to his own; he's not making comparisons with himself but rather of Sasuke before and after he started going, what Jigen perceives as all-out.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Not really, to Jigen/Isshiki, his superiority to Naruto and Sasuke is a foregone conclusion.

In this scene, he's assessing Susano'o and Kurama Mode as Naruto and Sasuke going all out, and wants to see what that looks like.

After Sasuke swings his comment about it not being fast should be in reference to what he previously perceived was Sasuke not going all out.

That's why, after his speed comment, he questions its durability and not its power in comparison to his own; he's not comparing it to himself but rather its speed and durability in comparison to Sasuke's earlier showings of speed and durability.

Doesn't necessarily mean he got slower

 

[Godernet]

Doesn't necessarily mean he got slower

no one said he got slower, its just not a speed amp

 

[HelloThere1089]

no one said he got slower, its just not a speed amp

yeah. Susanoo isn't a speed amp. Who said otherwise?

 

[Godernet]

yeah. Susanoo isn't a speed amp. Who said otherwise?

It's in the Sandbox for both TL Sauce and New Era Sauce,

even higher with the Susano'o (In addition to providing immense strength, the Susano'o is noted for its incredible speed. Even in its lower stages, the Susano'o can consistently overwhelm opponents close to its caster in speed with its blinding quickness)

even higher with the Susano'o, far higher with Majestic Attire Susano'o (By merging the Susano’o with the Kurama Avatar, Naruto and Sasuke—using their Ōtsutsuki-tier chakra control—can combine the attributes of both avatars into the MAS.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

There isn't any noticeable speed difference among the characters in between. There is but not to the point where they can't hang with each other. Naruto was performing at similar levels in base and cloaked against Delta.

I suppose, but are we gonna ignore statements of Naruto's KCM being a massive boost already from base? Or is it that the amps don't amp speed now? I mean contradictory scenes like Base Naruto performing roughly the same as KSPSM can just be chalked up as him holding back, or Delta powering up.

 

[HelloThere1089]

It's in the Sandbox for both TL Sauce and New Era Sauce,

even higher with the Susano'o (In addition to providing immense strength, the Susano'o is noted for its incredible speed. Even in its lower stages, the Susano'o can consistently overwhelm opponents close to its caster in speed with its blinding quickness)

even higher with the Susano'o, far higher with Majestic Attire Susano'o (By merging the Susano’o with the Kurama Avatar, Naruto and Sasuke—using their Ōtsutsuki-tier chakra control—can combine the attributes of both avatars into the MAS.

Dunno why I missed that. Very unintuitive. But I agree with MAS being a speed amp. And nothing really has contradicted it so far. That's what I was referring to. No opinion on Susanoo tho.

 

[Godernet]

I suppose, but are we gonna ignore statements of Naruto's KCM being a massive boost already from base?

It's not really ignoring tbh,

not all amps are multipliers, just bc something was a big amp when it was introduced doesn't mean it will remain that way.

between when KCM was relevant and now Naruto has gotten several massive buffs to the point where he's pretty consistently not starting fights in his strongest form and feeling them out in Base, ever since his fight with Sasuke tbh (so you could say Hagaromo's buff just elevated his base to the point where his prior amps became significantly less potent)

It's hard to even call it inconsistent when there are only examples of KSPSM being relative to Base across all of Naruto's fights, and roughly no examples of him getting massively faster from Base to SPSM to KSPSM across all the arcs the forms have existed in.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

not all amps are multipliers, just bc something was a big amp when it was introduced doesn't mean it will remain that way.

between when KCM was relevant and now Naruto has gotten several massive buffs to the point where he's pretty consistently not starting fights in his strongest form and feeling them out in Base, ever since his fight with Sasuke tbh (so you could say Hagaromo's buff just elevated his base to the point where his prior amps became significantly less potent)

I mean, are you assuming his Base increased in power, but his forms (KCM, particularly) remained stagnant and didn't really grow?

and roughly no examples of him getting massively faster from Base to SPSM to KSPSM across all the arcs the forms have existed in.

2x isn't "massively", is it?

 

[HelloThere1089]

You know what IS massive tho

 

[Godernet]

I mean, are you assuming his Base increased in power, but his forms (KCM, particularly) remained stagnant and didn't really grow?

I'm saying that since EoS, his feats show us that Post-Hagaromo's chakra, his Base and KSPSM have been portrayed in a similar tier, with just lower and higher end levels of relativity to his opponents.

That doesn't break previous lore that KCM is a big amp, bc at the time it for sure was.

But for non-multiplier amps, they can be powercrept into irrelevance by the stronger and stronger characters over time which seems to be the case here.

2x isn't "massively", is it?

I mean, being twice as fast as your opponent is a sizable advantage, no matter how you put it.

We also just never really get evidence for Manga Base and Fused Momo even having different speeds, let alone being twice as fast.

 

[Samlex1234]

Okay, I agree with everything except the idea that Fused Momoshiki ≈ Base Momoshiki. Kinshiki was already relative to Base Momo in speed and AP, yet Base Momo proceeds to absorb him into a chakra fruit, which, as we know, contains not just his chakra but also his genetic information. The fact that we’re even debating whether Momoshiki + Kinshiki results in a stats amp across the board is strange. i mean that aside, if anyone should have a perfect chakra control to apply chakra to amp all their stats it would be Momoshiki who is an Otsutsuki that should at least be ~ Kaguya who is stated to have a perfect chakra control .

What makes this discussion even more fascinating is how people cling strictly to the manga despite its contradictions. Kodachi himself worked on both the manga and the anime, approved changes in both, and allowed differences to stand and the anime came later and even expands on the fight. So what exactly is the point of all this mental gymnastics just to argue that Fused Momoshiki didn’t gain a speed amp all while insisting that 3-Tomoe Sasuke who scales to Kinshiki ~ Base Momo also scales ~ Fused Momo?

• Speed feat #1: Here, we see Darui literally notice Momoshiki coming yet unable to do anything about it.
• Speed feat #2: Here. Clearly suprerior speed.
• Non-anti-feat: Here, where Gaara saw Momoshiki approaching from afar and reacts in time. That’s a reaction/perception feat to a travel speed. Same way I can see Usain Bolt sprinting toward me and throw my hands up, that doesn’t mean I can match his actual travel speed.

At the end of the day, not all types of speed are equal. Perception, reaction, and travel speed scale differently. Honestly, even travel speed itself should be considered amped after the fusion but that’s a topic for another day.

 

[Damage3245]

Your first link doesn't work Samlex.

 

[Samlex1234]

Your first link doesn't work Samlex.

Fixed.

 

[Testarossa002]

I'm still of the opinion that Susano'o and MAS aren't really physical speed amps tbh (outside of the Susano'o arrow, which he never really uses in this key)

I'd leave the Susano'o point for now since it doesn't really change anything rating wise but MAS dodges and then counterattacks lava golem all before the lava golem completed it's own attack. It's similar in movement to what SM Naruto did vs A3 except better as MAS cleanly and easily landed it's own hit instead of scrapping one
Mind you, LG was overwhelming Kurama mode before this

Speed feat #1: Here, we see Darui literally notice Momoshiki coming yet unable to do anything about it.

He noticed him at the last minute. Ofc he couldn’t do anything about it

Speed feat #2: Here. Clearly suprerior speed

Where? All I'm seeing is him punching her after holding her arm. Which is an indication of clearly superior strength. Not speed

What makes this discussion even more fascinating is how people cling strictly to the manga despite its contradictions

What contradictions?

 

[Sasukesama0492]

Sandbox here
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Testarossa002/Speed_Revision_2_(Naruto)

Where is eida

 

[Testarossa002]

Where is eida

I was pretty sure I added it
Matters little though
It's just a value swap for her

 

[Testarossa002]

bump

 

[IvarUHQ]

I agree I'm even surprised that there is still no mftl+

 

[Godernet]

MAS dodges and then counterattacks lava golem all before the lava golem completed it's own attack. It's similar in movement to what SM Naruto did vs A3 except better as MAS cleanly and easily landed it's own hit instead of scrapping one
Mind you, LG was overwhelming Kurama mode before this

I mean, as we discussed with the Fused Momo point, beating someone down isn't really indicative of a speed gap.

In CQC, just having a power advantage is enough to quickly overwhelm someone, even with relative speed.

And MAS ducking under Lava Golem swinging overhead to cut it in half isn't really a speed gap, (Boxers quite literally weave under punches and land gut shots before their opponent can counter all the time, landing shots and dodging isn't really indicative of a speed deficit or sudden speed increase.)

(to also reuse this example. Base Momo was shown effortlessly dodging Base Naruto's attacks, only for Base Naruto to later be capable of blocking Fused Momo's attacks, by the logic presented above, Base Naruto < Base Momo ~ Fused Momo ~ Base Naruto)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[Testarossa002]

Alright
I’ve decided I won’t be actively pursuing the MAS 2x stuff anymore. Someone else can pick it up if they’d like, but it won’t be me.

For clarity, the main goals of this thread are:

1. Replacing values: Many characters are currently scaled to 20c instead of 28c, which makes the scaling chain harder to follow.
2. Fixing scaling: Reworked justifications have changed some values, and the affected characters are listed in the OP.

As I’ve mentioned several times throughout these revisions (from Mid tiers up to God tiers), upgrades might be the most noticeable aspect, but they aren’t the only purpose of these threads. A big part of my focus has been refining the scaling as carefully as I can.

I truly hope I’ve left the verse in a better state than when I started.

This won’t be my final contribution to the verse (I’ve still got two more threads left in me), but it will be my last major one.

Sayonara.

 

[Testarossa002]

Alright,
I’ve decided I won’t be actively pursuing the MAS 2x stuff anymore. Someone else can pick it up if they’d like, but it won’t be me.

For clarity, the main (new) goals of this thread are:

1. Replacing values: Many characters are currently scaled to 20c instead of 28c, which makes the scaling chain harder to follow.
2. Fixing scaling: Reworked justifications have changed some values, and the affected characters are listed in the OP.

As I’ve mentioned several times throughout these revisions (from Mid tiers up to God tiers), upgrades might be the most noticeable aspect, but they aren’t the only purpose of these threads. A big part of my focus has been refining the scaling as carefully as I can.

I truly hope I’ve left the verse in a better state than when I started.

This won’t be my final contribution to the verse (I’ve still got two more threads left in me), but it will be my last major one.

Sayonara.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I truly hope I’ve left the verse in a better state than when I started.
This won’t be my final contribution to the verse (I’ve still got two more threads left in me), but it will be my last major one.
Sayonara.

dw goatie I'll take over
you did magnificent work

 

[Samlex1234]

I mean, as we discussed with the Fused Momo point, beating someone down isn't really indicative of a speed gap.

In CQC, just having a power advantage is enough to quickly overwhelm someone, even with relative speed.
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And MAS ducking under Lava Golem swinging overhead to cut it in half isn't really a speed gap, (Boxers quite literally weave under punches and land gut shots before their opponent can counter all the time, landing shots and dodging isn't really indicative of a speed deficit or sudden speed increase.)

(to also reuse this example. Base Momo was shown effortlessly dodging Base Naruto's attacks, only for Base Naruto to later be capable of blocking Fused Momo's attacks, by the logic presented above, Base Naruto < Base Momo ~ Fused Momo ~ Base Naruto)

Fusion is, at minimum, a 1+1 = 2× amp of the former providing both characters are relatively in power, because combining two energy sources necessarily increases output. The manga itself proves that access to more chakra is not just more Ap but also more speed, provided the user has great chakra control, as shown when Kaguya absorbed chakra from the God Tree (IT) and both her might and speed became exponentially greater.

Majestic Attire Susano’o is consistently presented as Naruto and Sasuke’s ultimate fused state, where each retains their full arsenal in one construct:

• Sasuke contributes Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan perception + chakra.
• Naruto contributes Sage Mode danger sensing and Kurama’s massive chakra reserves.
• Together, their chakra volumes, abilities, defenses, and offensive power are synergized into a single war-god form.

Importantly, reaction feats do not erase speed scaling. Reacting to a faster opponent does not mean you equal their travel speed or combat speed; it is specifically called Reaction speed which is tied to many factors. responding to an opponent twice as fast is not the same as matching them in movement, and being “2× faster” does not necessarily equate to a perception blitz.

There are multiple cases in the same series where characters react to opponents above their tier in speed without equaling them. To deny that MAS receives a speed amp ignores both the canon evidence of how more chakra works with great chakra control and the consistent precedent that fusion increases all stats rather than just one.

 

[Testarossa002]

bump
it's just a value swap guys. no more big numbers