Undertale Calculations - 90% of them are wrong

[StrymULTRA]

Personally I'd say to leave both the MTT feats (the wall busting and the supersonic kicks) for a discussion in a CRT than a CGM Thread, as their validity depends entirely on stuff that's outside simple maths and instead relies on lore interpretations.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Personally I'd say to leave both the MTT feats (the wall busting and the supersonic kicks) for a discussion in a CRT than a CGM Thread, as their validity depends entirely on stuff that's outside simple maths and instead relies on lore interpretations.

It was already explained why regardless of lore interpretation the supersonic kicks one is completely invalid. The lore interpretations would just make it even further invalid than it already is.

For the wall busting maybe tho.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It was already explained why regardless of lore interpretation the supersonic kicks one is completely invalid. The lore interpretations would just make it even further invalid than it already is.

This says you, though. Don't speed as if you're a staff member, as things as whether MTT was using kicks or bullets are not where a CGM thread should be. There's a reason why several CGMs here don't have a real vote about it lol.

 

[Rodriiogo]

This says you, though. Don't speed as if you're a staff member, as things as whether MTT was using kicks or bullets are not where a CGM thread should be. There's a reason why several CGMs here don't have a real vote about it lol.

Again that was not the reason tho. Both armor and joakin agreed with the arguments regardless of lore interpretations because of the other arguments about it. Go back one page.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again that was not the reason tho. Both armor and joakin agreed with the arguments regardless of lore interpretations. Go back one page.

Yeah but things like "UT doesn't follow KE" isn't really something reliant on math lol. But to avoid to go in a loop:

Snip

Personally I'd say to leave both the MTT feats (the wall busting and the supersonic kicks) for a discussion in a CRT than a CGM Thread, as their validity depends entirely on stuff that's outside simple maths and instead relies on lore interpretations.

What do you think about this, given you're an admin?

 

[Rodriiogo]

Yeah but things like "UT doesn't follow KE" isn't really something reliant on math lol. But to avoid to go in a loop:

Strawmanning the argument that was clarified one page ago to NOT be the argument I'm making. Dude. Genuinely.

I do wanna clarify here, I just think calculations like Papyrus's Bones, Sans's bones etc etc shouldn't be used via the same reason as mettaton's (The damage argument on KE being a non-factor), not literally all type of KE calcs.

The argument isn't "UT doesn't follow KE at all" it's the calculation in question is invalid because the SCENE(S) OF THE CALC(S) IN QUESTION doesn't follow KE rules and breaks them. This can be talked about here in a CGM thread, not a CRT.

 

[Qurbonboev]

For the wall busting maybe tho.

No argument that you provided is in jurisdiction of CGM to solve. This is why one of them disagreed with deletion, and another said it should be tackled by knowledgeable members

The argument isn't "UT doesn't follow KE at all" it's the calculation in question is invalid because the SCENE(S) OF THE CALC(S) IN QUESTION doesn't follow KE rules and breaks them

You provided example of two calcs, first(Sans) is invalid due to bones being intangible, second one(Papyrus) doesn't have calculated KE in the first place(it's too slow)

 

[Rodriiogo]

No argument that you provided is in jurisdiction of CGM to solve. This is why one of them disagreed with deletion, and another said it should be tackled by knowledgeable members

Sure that's why I said maybe. I will address it in a CRT another time then, cutting it out of the OP rq. (Done)

You provided example of two calcs, first(Sans) is invalid due to bones being intangible, second one(Papyrus) doesn't have calculated KE in the first place(it's too slow)

Those examples were just random examples of where it breaks KE rules if used on. It being invalid because of another reason (it being intangible) doesn't change my point. As for Papyrus's I literally told you in the page ago that I was reading the old calc by mistake so that was my bad.
And why are the examples even relevant, the point is that there is no need for a "CRT" for the supersonic kicks calc because CGMs can see (and already saw) that applying KE is just invalid in that scene. Lore isn't needed because of the other arguments, lore likely just supports it being even more invalid but since it's invalid to begin with it doesn't even really matter for now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

A feat should make sense no matter what, not just because a standard says that it has to. Trying to turn a slow-moving attack into a supersonic KE-kick is obviously just abusing the KE rules to make nothing into something, and we have clearly set a precedent that KE feats should be put under particular scrutiny precisely because it's so easy to get a random motion into high tiers. I would point to that same recent Naruto thread that was trying to give characters Class P for moving a sword during a Rel+ feat - we rejected that not because it explicitly broke any of our standards but because it was obviously not actually a real feat, these standards are just meant to outline that, they won't cover every edge case.

This is obviously a lower tier but the principle is similar. The fact that this is so abstract and requires several assumptions (like Mettaton creating giant legs rather than just kicking, the electricity actually being X speed, the KE being properly represented or even intended, the electricity being real, the legs actually moving at speeds comparable to it, hell even a lot of battle box/UT standard interpretations like how you interpret the Soul taking damage, or its size being fine to pixel scale things...) to all be correct just to make sense pretty clearly outlines that it's not good to use - some of these assumptions may be fine on their own but all things together there's too many points of failure for this to be the leading AP feat for a verse.

I agree with the op and Armor on the kick calc.

As it currently stands, seems the calc needs to be removed regardless. But what can be done is discuss a more applicable method in the future thread where the proper calc assumptions are hammered out.

Those are my thoughts, @StrymULTRA

 

[Qurbonboev]

As it currently stands, seems the calc needs to be removed regardless. But what can be done is discuss a more applicable method in the future thread where the proper calc assumptions are hammered out.

Those are my thoughts, @StrymULTRA

Doesn't want to start discuss over same things over and over again(which is obviously undesirable), but:
1. Mettaton creating giant legs instead of kicking, electricity being real and moving with speed of X is accepted assumptions. To change this you need to make CRT(I am not even talking about things like diegeticity of battlebox/UI, this is another can of worms that isn't here to handle). And they shouldn't be used currently as arguments against validity of calc. Sadly it's commonplace in this thread. We recently had discussion about whether TK LS should scale to Physical LS, when CGM thread obviously not a place of discussion for such questions. OP only recently did delete Mettaton wall feat from opening post, when it was obvious from the start that it's not place of discussion for it. I would be very thankful if we limited this discussion to only questions, that are directly in jurisdiction of CGMs(we are already 6 pages deep)
2. OP and Armor does have other potentially valid arguments using it for AP. Such as doing same damage when not on motion and when moving. But I disagree with it: you can't get hit by a motionless leg. You either need for leg to move towards SOUL, or for the SOUL move towards it. And physically there is no difference between "Object A with speed X being thrown at character B" and "Character B throw himself at Object A with speed X", if we restrict analysis only to them.
3. Question of it's validity for LS is different matter, main valid argument(that doesn't involve challenging assumptions that shouldn't be challenged here) doesn't make LS calculation invalid, only AP(if argument is accepted). So I am asking CGMs again to eval this recalc.

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[Armorchompy]

Yeah but things like "UT doesn't follow KE" isn't really something reliant on math lol.

The discussion regarding the Mettaton feat hinges primarily on calc standards and assumptions and those are the jurisdiction of CGMs.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The time would be how long force is exerted until the elevator moves at that speed, which would be the time from when the doors are closed until the elevator moves, at most.

Done

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't know acceleration stuff super well. Looking at OP the timeframe concerns seem valid, I'm not so sure regarding the vine stuff since only so many could be moving it, if memory serves they're pretty huge

 

[Rodriiogo]

Since Flowey's elevator is the last thing to talk about before the changes can be applied
People have been saying it is "meant to happen fast" can someone explain what is the justification for that? I still didn't get it despite just looking at the video of it again. (and even then why the arbitrary numbers of "6" and "15" seconds

As for the vines count, Flowey used this many vines just for the door part of the elevator:

And the elevator, compared to the door's length, has a length of around 2.93x a width around 1.51x. Just pointing it out regardless as a way it could be measured if someone tries it.
I still stand by my opinion that the feat should be discarded due to how the info we have is basically none outside of assumptions.

 

[SnakesCity]

Since Flowey's elevator is the last thing to talk about before the changes can be applied
People have been saying it is "meant to happen fast" can someone explain what is the justification for that? I still didn't get it despite just looking at the video of it again.

The violent shaking of the screen with the lights in the elevator blaring and the screen fading to white shortly after actually means it was going really slowly, like snail's pace, this was the narrative intent i assure you.

Anyways if you want a non-snarky answer it's because earlier in the game when you go up the same elevator the ride is much slower, even infamously having the track that plays during that moment being called "long elevator".

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Since Flowey's elevator is the last thing to talk about before the changes can be applied

The second last thing, actually, since you still need a CRT to implement what was approved in Calc Group Discussion.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I assume that without the calcs most would scale to 8-C based on the lightning feats

 

[Armorchompy]

I assume that without the calcs most would scale to 8-C based on the lightning feats

The lightning is only accepted as being real thanks to a possibly and even then I think the basis for that was that the electricity scaled to higher AP than real lightning. If the verse is downgraded that probably wouldn't apply.

 

[Rodriiogo]

The violent shaking of the screen with the lights in the elevator blaring and the screen fading to white shortly after actually means it was going really slowly, like snail's pace, this was the narrative intent i assure you.

I don't believe it was going insanely slow, I believe it was going above the average elevator speed sure, that's why it was shaking, howerver, an elevator wouldn't handle speeds at even 10m/s. That's already insanely fast for an elevator. The calculation is going for an INSANELY high speed (279.11m/s) with an unsupported timeframe is my issue. It being "fast" doesn't mean it supports it being 279.11m/s fast, as "fast" for an elevator to start shaking? 10m/s is already more than enough. The average fast elevator doesn't even go past 3m/s.

Anyways if you want a non-snarky answer it's because earlier in the game when you go up the same elevator the ride is much slower, even infamously having the track that plays during that moment being called "long elevator".

Small issues. First off, that's an elevator that is going at the average speed of a elevator (1-3m/s) ofc it'd take time. Second off, that elevators ride starts a whole 644.66 meters nearer the destination when compared to where the true lab's elevator is used to be in the calculation. This example just actually makes the idea of the intent being it taking "15 seconds" even more ridiculous. This examples don't work in my opinion.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The lightning is only accepted as being real thanks to a possibly and even then I think the basis for that was that the electricity scaled to higher AP than real lightning. If the verse is downgraded that probably wouldn't apply.

I'm well aware. I was planning to remove the verse rule after this thread as well since Rodrigo was also planning to deal with speed later

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyways if you want a non-snarky answer it's because earlier in the game when you go up the same elevator the ride is much slower, even infamously having the track that plays during that moment being called "long elevator".

This does make sense to me, actually. The fade to white is still potentially indicative of a time-skip, but there is a fair argument this is just directly being compared to the long elevator ride and thus the short timeframe is deliberate. I'm not sure.

Would this feat be used just for Flowey or every monster?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Would this feat be used just for Flowey or every monster?

Toriel is > Flowey rn, so her, Asgore, MTT NEO and Undyne the Undying scale to that too.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, all things considered it doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. I feel like the feat's timeframe is ambiguous but not necessarily wrong. At worst I think you can rate it as a possibly/likely.

 

[Rodriiogo]

The reason I dont like this example is because, well one, it isn't the same elevator, but two, they are 644.66 meters away from eachother, so using the timeframe of one to a completely unrelated feat and elevator is weird.

Even a possibly seems like a stretch

 

[WizardPowers101]

I dunno, all things considered it doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. I feel like the feat's timeframe is ambiguous but not necessarily wrong. At worst I think you can rate it as a possibly/likely.

yeah, that’s pretty much the problem, is that it uses too many assumptions.

 

[SnakesCity]

The reason I dont like this example is because, well one, it isn't the same elevator, but two, they are 644.66 meters away from eachother, so using the timeframe of one to a completely unrelated feat and elevator is weird.

Entry points are different but the ending location is the same, they at least share the same shaft. Or it's Toby Fox ignoring the layout of the Underground to make a cool scene but it's not my job to determine that

 

[Armorchompy]

Them being (kind of) not the same elevator does muddy things a bit. I do think saying it's a timeskip is a little strange when we're shown toby is completely willing to have us sit through the whole elevator ride, so it just being a sudden acceleration and stop would make sense (and probably contextualize it best as a contrast to the long elevator ride).

I can understand the concerns with the feat and admittedly saying the elevator is going at like, 250 m/s or whatever it is is a bit strange. But I dunno, it seems at least potentially valid as a feat, I'd suggest keeping it as a possibly if nothing else.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Entry points are different but the ending location is the same, they at least share the same shaft. Or it's Toby Fox ignoring the layout of the Underground to make a cool scene but it's not my job to determine that

I just think using timeframes on stuff like this where there's timeskips is eh?

I mean even going RIGHT AFTER the "elevator feat", the next elevator takes you this distance:

in around four frames.
The timeframes are obviously all over the place imo unless you think this elevator is somehow faster than every other elevator in the underground by dozens of times

Toby just didn't wanna waste time and wanted to skip right to the finale of the story so he didn't wanna make people have to walk ALLLL the way back to new home and through it or wait a long time between travels

 

[Rodriiogo]

Or (sorry I forgot)

When you go on the long elevator the second time, the timeframe changes and is much faster, Toby was actively speeding up stuff at the end otherwise it'd be a walking + waiting simulator.

 

[Armorchompy]

Or (sorry I forgot)

When you go on the long elevator the second time, the timeframe changes and is much faster, Toby was actively speeding up stuff at the end otherwise it'd be a walking + waiting simulator.

The trips just being skipped doesn't do too much to convince me (since it could feasibly just be for convenience it's not like they're actually teleporters) but admittedly this is a fair point. Even then though I think there's an argument that this is just to save time vs the Flowey one being actively shown to go fast with the unique animation of the white flash at the end, it's kind of a different case.

I'll admit I'm not really sure how to treat this feat in the end.

 

[WizardPowers101]

Them being (kind of) not the same elevator does muddy things a bit. I do think saying it's a timeskip is a little strange when we're shown toby is completely willing to have us sit through the whole elevator ride, so it just being a sudden acceleration and stop would make sense (and probably contextualize it best as a contrast to the long elevator ride).

I mean, we’ve already experienced something like this before.

When Frisk woke up and when Frisk fell down the bridge, the white screen is just meant to be a cut.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I'm well aware. I was planning to remove the verse rule after this thread as well since Rodrigo was also planning to deal with speed later

Snip

Verse doesn't have many speed calcs to begin with, so don't see reason to make separate thread about it.
I am just gonna remove possibly MHS in CRT about scaling after this thread fully concludes

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Verse doesn't have many speed calcs to begin with, so don't see reason to make separate thread about it.
I am just gonna remove possibly MHS in CRT about scaling after this thread fully concludes

There's a verse rule against it, so I assume that we need to create a CRT to remove it before trying to downgrade the whole thing

 

[Qurbonboev]

There's a verse rule against it, so I assume that we need to create a CRT to remove it before trying to downgrade the whole thing

"Do not attempt to make discussions regarding the speed of Vulkin's lightning attacks until new canon information is released from official sources"
I won't try to start discussing whether Vulkin lightning is actual lightning again. I will just write that as long as AP of verse is lower than 1.6 billion joules, we can't treat it as realistic lightning. If verse gets its AP back to such level, possibly MHS would return, but until then verse wouldn't have it.

Also, anyone wants to eval Undyne jump and fall recalc(we can measure her size much better now)

 

[ElJoaki5]

Done

Well math looks fine although the speed of the thing is probably getting changed

 

[Qurbonboev]

Since verse is in dire need of new calcs, I calced Undyne smashing hockey puck into the sky (not ingame content, but considered a canon).
Could anyone eval it?

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[StrymULTRA]

Since verse is in dire need of new calcs, I calced Undyne smashing hockey puck into the sky (not ingame content, but considered a canon).
Could anyone eval it?

The LS part is wrong due to it being a result of striking strength.

 

[Rodriiogo]

The trips just being skipped doesn't do too much to convince me (since it could feasibly just be for convenience it's not like they're actually teleporters) but admittedly this is a fair point. Even then though I think there's an argument that this is just to save time vs the Flowey one being actively shown to go fast with the unique animation of the white flash at the end, it's kind of a different case.

I'll admit I'm not really sure how to treat this feat in the end.

I think it's better to just remove the feat entirely, at least for now, unless/until someone brings up a valid way of getting timeframe that doesn't rely on such faulty assumptions.

 

[Robo432343]

yeah if its too unclear how that flowey feat should be treated then it should just be removed for now

 

[Qurbonboev]

More calcs for evaluation:
1. Actual 8-C calc
2. Supporting 9-A calc, plus Class M LS