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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Oh it is not.
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The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It's absolutely wasted,
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Meh
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
used as a punching bag, with a stupid concept,
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That's the point, destructive thoughts increase Vegeta's power, which can also be achieved through taking damage.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
and by having Vegeta literally faint from damage, it betrays the entire concept
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Not really, it just shows us the limits of a transformation the way Vegeta uses it, despite getting stronger, he doesn't heal, the damage accumulates, and he will probably have to improve those aspects in future sagas, just as Goku had to train the ultra instinct
Also, the scene in which he faints is not bad, Gas literally looks overwhelmed and towards the end he was scared by Vegeta, if Vegeta had been able to endure more he may have won the fight alone. (It's also a decent way to make way for Goku to have his fight with Gas, not good, but decent)

Anyway, I said that is fine, not that it was good, I personally like the concept and I see the potential for the future (although they will probably leave it aside now that Gohan has been reintroduced to the greatest scales of power, and Broly exists )

Now, all this is based on my memories of that moment, I may be wrong in the concept or how it was executed, but I am not going to start rereading the saga for this comment, I just make it clear that it is my opinion with probable failures, and that we are all free to think as we want
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It has justification for existing at the very least, it fits a narrative at least. Goku trained 7 YEARS to achieve it and it only works by exerting the principles of Super Saiyan (boosting at an unthinkable cost of stamina) to their max, which was only possible BECAUSE Goku was in the afterlife which has no time flow.
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Hate to break it to you, but that bolded part… You made it up. SSJ3 is literally just stronger Super Saiyan with a stamina drain. That’s not even a unique thing either since Grade 3 exists. Nothing about “applying SSJ principles to their max” is stated in the series. You made that up to justify the form.

For all intents and purposes, it’s just SSJ Grade 3 without the muscle problem.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Everything makes sense and is justifiable. If you're going to be as skeptical as that, then no form in any capacity has a "logical explanation to why it exists" because this is fiction.
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Incorrect. Super Saiyan, Gohan’s SSJ2, SSJ4, and Ultra Instinct are all great examples of forms that are perfectly justified in their existence. SSJ3 simply isn’t that.

I could say SSJ Blue is justified by being an application of Super Saiyan’s principles to divine ki, but I think we can both agree it’s far from a masterclass in transformation writing
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I forgot the authority I had, I'm sorry Clover! oh my oh my /s

Nah, people are allowed to like trash, doesn't mean I can't complain about it, freedom goes both ways my friend.
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I’m just asking you to not be rude about it. I hope that’s not too big an ask.

Also you’re not the sole arbiter of quality
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Dragon Ball Super is a mess to be sure, and I don't think both the anime and the manga go above "decent" from my standards of quality, but its moments like that which help me remember why I fell in love with Dragon Ball in spite of its flaws and shortcomings.
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In my opinion Super as part of the franchise has good high points, and low points that go to the bottom
I like it, but I think I was more interested when I read "the 7 deadly sins" than in the super manga (which is a manga with decent good points and bad points that go to the bottom, at least it was more consistent)
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I know it's in reference to the manga iteration, but I actually quite love Super Saiyan Blue Evolution in the anime for one reason: It's a form that was achieved through selfless intentions and IMO served as a way of showing how far Vegeta has come since his days of being a ruthless killer.

Most of Vegeta's transformations up until that point were either fueled by selfish desires (Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was triggered from a mixture of jealously and anger that he was weaker then a "low class" Saiyan like Goku who achieved a form thought to be myth before he did, and I don't think I need to clarify the intent behind Vegeta allowing himself to become a Majin) or was a result of his intensive training to begin with (Super Saiyan 2, God, Blue, etc). But what makes Evolution stand out in the best way possible is that he obtained it not from selfishness or training, but a desire to protect those he loves and to serve as proof of his promise to Cabba that he'll revive Universe 6 if it were erased during the tournament. In the anime, Evolution to me feels like a cultivation of decades of character development on Vegeta's part and cemented that he wasn't the ruthless and selfish killer that he was in the past but someone who uses his strength to fight for those he loves and values in his life.
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In the case of the anime, everything that has to do with Vegeta obtaining the transformation is good, reflecting well the character at that moment, but... it has no explanation, within the verse it has no logic
I don't have any major problems other than that, that's why I'm Bullying the Evolution of the manga and not the anime,
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Dragon Ball Super is a mess to be sure, and I don't think both the anime and the manga go above "decent" from my standards of quality, but its moments like that which help me remember why I fell in love with Dragon Ball in spite of its flaws and shortcomings.
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Yup I kinda feel the same too, I even sometimes get a tingling sensation in my back like I can almost go "super".
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
SSJ Rage had so much narrative backing that was shot in the face by the lack of in universe explanation. Also I'm still fine with Frieza getting that strong. I'm gone for real this time.
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Yep, I love the moment, but it doesn't make sense, and for no reason does the transformation look like a fusion of blue with superayayin, which makes me hate it
Still, excellent moment
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I could say SSJ Blue is justified by being an application of Super Saiyan’s principles to divine ki, but I think we can both agree it’s far from a masterclass in transformation writing
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Good transformation in the manga, not because it's good how they get it (because we don't even see it), but because of how they handle it afterwards.
 
Yeah, I don't know what's going on with the Revisionist History. SSJ2 is perfectly fine. As are SSJ Grade 2 and Grade 3, as they served as foreshadowing/precursors to the SSJ2 form Gohan takes, especially in providing the means of which Gohan's character arc is completed. It should also be noted this theme that Gohan undergoes is maintained in the Buu Saga for other SSJ2 users. Vegeta doesn't go SSJ2 (even though we know he has it) until after he self-destructs and completes his arc, and Goku doesn't go SSJ2 until he fights Vegeta and challenges him on his fall into Darkness (unless you want to count the Yakon "blip" as him actually transforming all the way for a fight), and to convince him to snap out of it.

SSJ3 is useless, yeah, but that was the narrative point. It's supposed to break the trend of "new threat, new form.," that had started to become a factor after Saiyan Saga (Kaioken {Saiyan Saga}, Super Saiyan {Frieza Saga}, Super Saiyan 2 {Cell Saga}), and establish that this Saga won't go the same as it previously did.

SSJ4, and Super Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (for reasons I'll soon go over) are peak.

SSG is also good, Narratively speaking, Goku is ascending not towards the Gods not because of his “unga bunga strength” or “big mad,” but because of his GOOD DEEDS. This theme is very prominent in Dragon Ball and is acknowledged twice—Once at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and yet again at the Tournament of Power. The opportunity to turn into a Super Saiyan God came not from strength, but from Goku’s ability to see kindness in others and grant them the ability to improve themselves as people, which they then do good on. It’s those people who then give him the power of a God.

SSB is ass.

SSJ Rage is ass.

SSBE is...eh. You could make the argument that Vegeta gets Super Saiyan Blue Evolution from his tapping into the good will (promises/dreams) of Saiyans from another Universe. His Student, who he lost. It’s made explicitly clear that, narratively, this form is the reward for not only having changed, but seeking to grant that change to other Saiyans. You can even add in his insecurity over the Saiyan race into this, as Zamasu steals the embodiment of the changes Saiyan (Goku) and perverts it—Hell, he becomes a better “Saiyan” than Goku or Vegeta were with it, and you can reason this shook his beliefs. Which in itself can be supported with the Bulma scene—Vegeta realizing that not even his wife views him as a solution to the problems, and instead relies on Goku. But at the same time I'm not very enamored with it, and it feels like it was just shoved in to give Vegeta a SSBKK equivalent.

SSBKK is Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken by tapping into the power given to him by a friend—Which he specifically met from his own good will, as that is what got him the opportunity to train in Otherworld with his physical body. It's basically the furthering of the themes of SSG. Very meh outside of hype factor.

UIO-MUI is peak.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Nothing about “applying SSJ principles to their max” is stated in the series.
Click to expand...
For the love of God.
4QH726Z.png


This was also stated by Goku around chapter 490, but my internet is sucking some ass so I can't get it
 
Sparkive said:
Again, the only transformations that deserve bullying are the Blue Evolution, the SSJ Rage and the Beast (although slightly less, because at least it has an explanation... bad, but it does) all the others have something that saves them or makes them worse. makes good directly
If I had to choose which one is worse... evolution manga (it's a damn tantrum, for the love of Zeno)
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You'll never convince me Blue or 3 was a good form idgaf.
 
RedReaper said:
Yeah, I don't know what's going on with the Revisionist History. SSJ2 is perfectly fine. As are SSJ Grade 2 and Grade 3, as they served as foreshadowing/precursors to the SSJ2 form Gohan takes, especially in providing the means of which Gohan's character arc is completed. It should also be noted this theme that Gohan undergoes is maintained in the Buu Saga for other SSJ2 users. Vegeta doesn't go SSJ2 (even though we know he has it) until after he self-destructs and completes his arc, and Goku doesn't go SSJ2 until he fights Vegeta and challenges him on his fall into Darkness (unless you want to count the Yakon "blip" as him actually transforming all the way for a fight), and to convince him to snap out of it.

SSJ3 is useless, yeah, but that was the narrative point. It's supposed to break the trend of "new threat, new form.," that had started to become a factor after Saiyan Saga (Kaioken {Saiyan Saga}, Super Saiyan {Frieza Saga}, Super Saiyan 2 {Cell Saga}), and establish that this Saga won't go the same as it previously did.

SSJ4, and Super Full Power Super Saiyan 4 (for reasons I'll soon go over) are peak.

SSG is also good, Narratively speaking, Goku is ascending not towards the Gods not because of his “unga bunga strength” or “big mad,” but because of his GOOD DEEDS. This theme is very prominent in Dragon Ball and is acknowledged twice—Once at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and yet again at the Tournament of Power. The opportunity to turn into a Super Saiyan God came not from strength, but from Goku’s ability to see kindness in others and grant them the ability to improve themselves as people, which they then do good on. It’s those people who then give him the power of a God.

SSB is ass.

SSJ Rage is ass.

SSBE is...eh. You could make the argument that Vegeta gets Super Saiyan Blue Evolution from his tapping into the good will (promises/dreams) of Saiyans from another Universe. His Student, who he lost. It’s made explicitly clear that, narratively, this form is the reward for not only having changed, but seeking to grant that change to other Saiyans. You can even add in his insecurity over the Saiyan race into this, as Zamasu steals the embodiment of the changes Saiyan (Goku) and perverts it—Hell, he becomes a better “Saiyan” than Goku or Vegeta were with it, and you can reason this shook his beliefs. Which in itself can be supported with the Bulma scene—Vegeta realizing that not even his wife views him as a solution to the problems, and instead relies on Goku. But at the same time I'm not very enamored with it, and it feels like it was just shoved in to give Vegeta a SSBKK equivalent.

SSBKK is Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken by tapping into the power given to him by a friend—Which he specifically met from his own good will, as that is what got him the opportunity to train in Otherworld with his physical body. It's basically the furthering of the themes of SSG. Very meh outside of hype factor.

UIO-MUI is peak.
Click to expand...
Also I find it very reductive to consider anything less than universal praise of SSJ2/3 as “Revisionist History.” Are people not allowed to have dissenting opinions? And are people’s opinions not allowed to change? If all our opinions were the same and/or unchanging, debates would be pointless.

Frankly, I found some glaring issues in your justifications of those two forms in particular, but I’ve already said I’ll stop debating this topic. And I believe that’s for the best, given how this thread has largely shown itself to be unreceptive to dissenting opinions.

Edit: Shitty Internet made this post twice.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Also I find it very reductive to consider anything less than universal praise of SSJ2/3 as “Revisionist History.” Are people not allowed to have dissenting opinions? And are people’s opinions not allowed to change? If all our opinions were the same and/or unchanging, debates would be pointless.
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I mean, not really? I agree SSJ3 is ass—But the POINT is that it’s ass. It’s a subversion of the “stronger form = win” trope Toriyama had went through. And while I don’t think you should just lavish SSJ2, I do think it’s revisionist history to assert the form was ever bad and “carried by Gohan.” If that was the case, SSJ sucks and was “carried by Namek Goku,” because every other Alien Ape who supported it makes it look like it’s not worth having.
CloverDragon03 said:
Frankly, I found some glaring issues in your justifications of those two forms in particular, but I’ve already said I’ll stop debating this topic. And I believe that’s for the best, given how this thread has largely shown itself to be unreceptive to dissenting opinions.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I’m not particularly against insulting SSJ3–Mostly because the point of the form stops mattering after you go past the original end of the Buu Saga. And SSJ2 definitely isn’t a great form in the sense that it’s ever noteworthy visually or just to even have after it’s debut—But to be frank, in the canon, neither is SSJ except for a few exceptions.
 
Where are the English translations for the new chapter coming from? I keep getting spoiled about stuff but I can’t find an English version of the chapter online yet.
 
Does anyone know how much radiation 17 million blutz waves is because it's used as one of the justifications for radiation resistance on the profiles.
 


Cell basically beats a Infinite Zamasu that fused with every timeline in that continuity (Aka a collection of dragon ball timelines) Aka fused with 7 timelines.

So like... how strong is that
 
StekFence said:
Do blutz waves have a confirmed analogue to actual radiation numbers?
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Not that I know of. Vegeta rates them in "Zenos." Specifically, at 17 Million Zeno Units Per Second, which when a Saiyan absorbs such through their eyes allows them to turn into an Oozaru.
 
RedReaper said:
Not that I know of. Vegeta rates them in "Zenos." Specifically, at 17 Million Zeno Units Per Second, which when a Saiyan absorbs such through their eyes allows them to turn into an Oozaru.
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Zeno is infinitely powerful so 17 million layers of infinities of radiation per second.
 
RinneItachi said:
Zeno is infinitely powerful so 17 million layers of infinities of radiation per second.
Click to expand...
Funnily enough, they aren’t written the same. You have Zen’o, (全王), the King of All, and then you have Zeno, (ゼノ) the measurement of Radiation. Surprisingly, despite how infamously forgetful he is, Toriyama didn’t muck it up and dupe the term/mix the two. It’s just a JP coincidence.
 
Wait since when is it allowed to use power levels for scaling here? I randomly stumbled across a "back scaling" thread
 
SirAlex09 said:
Wait since when is it allowed to use power levels for scaling here? I randomly stumbled across a "back scaling" thread
Click to expand...
It isn't for backscaling-Just upscaling.

So you couldn't, say, get the relative strength of a man (standard farmer at 5) by backscaling off of Piccolo's PL of 408's Moon Bust. But you COULD get Z Bardock over Moon Bust Piccolo via upscaling because he has a PL of ~10,000.
 
Something is wrong with Beast Gohan design in new chapter :

9275930-images%281%29%283%29.jpeg

Vs
9275933-img_20240216_180659.jpg


His eyes are different and hid hair is shorter...is Gohan like holding back or something ?
 
Prime2024 said:
Something is wrong with Beast Gohan design in new chapter :

9275930-images%281%29%283%29.jpeg

Vs
9275933-img_20240216_180659.jpg


His eyes are different and hid hair is shorter...is Gohan like holding back or something ?
Click to expand...
No one knows either Toyo made a mistake or Gohan holding back currently given the chapter before we say his beast form have pupils and Dark outline
 
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