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Kinda, since he went so fast that he was able to hit himself
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Immeasurable & Infinite: Deep Sea Confusion
- Thread starter Milly_Rocking_Bandit
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This thread is long and kinda chaotic. I will just address the parts that caught my eyes.
I don't think the undefined thing mentioned on the page is a contradiction. It is in a sense undefined in both cases, it's simply that being undefined isn't the sole criteria for those speed values, but more so a consequence of being any one of them. Note 6 explains it in proper detail, I think.
As DarkDragonMedeus said Immeasurable speed is roughly like treating at least 1 dimension of time as a spatial dimension.
In regards to the time traveling via running: Well, first FTL would do that via physics and then it often is the Immeasurable form of travel speed.
Immeasurable combat speed implies Immeasurable reactions, i.e. you have to be capable of reacting to an attack to your own past. Characters that merely time travel via running usually can't do that.
Being transcended over space and time in certain manners can imply this capability. E.g. reality-fiction transendence of the whole timeline. If time of the lower reality is just a page number in a book for you, you obviously have those capabilities.
I disagree that putting movement in timeless voids as 'undefined' is lazy or a huge problem in itself.
If there is no correlation between that and speed, that's just how that is.
It's like expecting a general speed tier for all characters with fire manipulation. If the feat points to nothing, not using it for anything is the responsible thing to do. It being common just doesn't change that.
I don't think the undefined thing mentioned on the page is a contradiction. It is in a sense undefined in both cases, it's simply that being undefined isn't the sole criteria for those speed values, but more so a consequence of being any one of them. Note 6 explains it in proper detail, I think.
As DarkDragonMedeus said Immeasurable speed is roughly like treating at least 1 dimension of time as a spatial dimension.
In regards to the time traveling via running: Well, first FTL would do that via physics and then it often is the Immeasurable form of travel speed.
Immeasurable combat speed implies Immeasurable reactions, i.e. you have to be capable of reacting to an attack to your own past. Characters that merely time travel via running usually can't do that.
Being transcended over space and time in certain manners can imply this capability. E.g. reality-fiction transendence of the whole timeline. If time of the lower reality is just a page number in a book for you, you obviously have those capabilities.
I disagree that putting movement in timeless voids as 'undefined' is lazy or a huge problem in itself.
If there is no correlation between that and speed, that's just how that is.
It's like expecting a general speed tier for all characters with fire manipulation. If the feat points to nothing, not using it for anything is the responsible thing to do. It being common just doesn't change that.
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DT makes sense as usual.
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Just thinking about something tho, would someone who "transcend the concept of distance" be immeasurable?
Not saying transcending in a higher D way or whatever but more being unaffected by space/distance.
For example a guy with Infinite speed can go from one side to another instantly of a "spaceloop" (y'know, this kind of thing in fiction where one side is connected to another), but an Immeasurable guy would just blitz this and not be trapped.
It's not a big brain reflection, just a little wonder.
Not saying transcending in a higher D way or whatever but more being unaffected by space/distance.
For example a guy with Infinite speed can go from one side to another instantly of a "spaceloop" (y'know, this kind of thing in fiction where one side is connected to another), but an Immeasurable guy would just blitz this and not be trapped.
It's not a big brain reflection, just a little wonder.
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- Thread starter
- #87
So if you said you had power that transcends the dimensions of space-time, would that count?
I’d disagree with that, because at least fire manipulation is easily quantifiable. Now we just have a bunch of characters with undefined speed and it’s just jarring to wrap my head around it. Like, again, timeless void standards were made with DB in mind, then lo & behold, DB reaches said requirements, then now it just doesn’t exist at all anymore, along with anyone else who scaled to that exact criteria.
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This is kind of why I asked in the timeless voids thread if you would still qualify for the speed if you can move in an area where there is no existing space.
Because without space being present, there is no distance present. And if you can move where there’s no distance, that would mean distance is irrelevant to you and your movements.
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- Thread starter
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That’s true too, because what if it’s more than just time? The verses I mostly refer to make note of there being more than just no time, but it transcends space and time in its entirety.
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I think it's different tho. Just no space/space means your movement aren't quantifiable, but not that you aren't under it (like how a 0D character would have no dimension but is under dimensions as a thing).
The example I tried to give for space would be the equivalent of "going so fast you go through time" distance edition.
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I’m not seeing how it would only be unquantifiable though (which, from what I know, is really no different since infinite speed isn’t quantifiable speed either).
When your moving within a place where no distance exists within said place, there would be no quantifiable existing movement being done, which shouldn’t be any different than moving within a place where distance does exist but your moving within it instantly to reach the same result.
We even accept ignoring distance as infinite speed too. For example, Cronus from Saint Seiya currently has this listed:
“Massively FTL+. Infinite Attack Speed with Pragma Spathe (Able to remove and manipulate distance, allowing him to hit the opponent instantaneously).
While it doesn’t scale around to his total speed, this specifically is still currently acknowledged as infinite speed by us. If removing/manipulating distance counts as infinite speed, why wouldn’t ignoring distance all together be the same?
When your moving within a place where no distance exists within said place, there would be no quantifiable existing movement being done, which shouldn’t be any different than moving within a place where distance does exist but your moving within it instantly to reach the same result.
We even accept ignoring distance as infinite speed too. For example, Cronus from Saint Seiya currently has this listed:
“Massively FTL+. Infinite Attack Speed with Pragma Spathe (Able to remove and manipulate distance, allowing him to hit the opponent instantaneously).
While it doesn’t scale around to his total speed, this specifically is still currently acknowledged as infinite speed by us. If removing/manipulating distance counts as infinite speed, why wouldn’t ignoring distance all together be the same?
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- Thread starter
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Well, let’s see what the mods think of it.
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The only ones on that list that are truly immesurable are Morgoth, Morax, Alphamon, Alduin and Vector Prime
For the others I am not so sure
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See here.
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so to recap, from this thread: immeasurable speed can be given to characters:
1. Whose attacks or actions have an effect before they even do them
2. Interact with time as though it was a spatial dimension
3. has multiple instances of traveling through time via physical movements and not through any devices or special abilities
1. Whose attacks or actions have an effect before they even do them
2. Interact with time as though it was a spatial dimension
3. has multiple instances of traveling through time via physical movements and not through any devices or special abilities
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By interacting with time as if its a spatial dimension, what does that mean more specifically?
Like flat out transcending above space-time and into a higher realm with sheer speed?
Like flat out transcending above space-time and into a higher realm with sheer speed?
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Wouldn’t that fit the requirement then? Or if anything go beyond?
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Okay. I’m fine with those then.
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Unironically, there are at least three other Chuck jokes that are legitimate examples of immeasurable speed and time being mostly irrelevant to him, up to and including the one where he can literally kick you "yesterday".
Anyway, I think the real problem is down to the page's wording. Moving in a timeless void (by itself) is undefined because time doesn't exist in the location, whereas immeasurable speed is granted when time simply doesn't matter to a character no matter where they are. That's the difference.
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For the ones who’s ratings are questionable/wrong, we should at least make a thread to address them so that users of those verses can try and come to make cases for them (if there’s any)
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Anyway, we likely need to do a bit of a cleanup of unreliable statistics. Help would be very appreciated.
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I thought we agreed that feats such as, characters moving forward and backwards in time via running laps around the earth faster than the earth rotates counts as merely Time Travel added to the list of abilities and not really much of a speed feat. Or other similar cases where traveling time via movement but lacking actual combat speed and reactions on such a level. It's the main reason various versions of Superman need to have their Immeasurable speed ratings removed as having that is basically the same thing as giving Goku Infinite speed via Instant Transmission.
Wally West's speed is fine because his speed fluctuates and he is sometimes able to fight at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds, but not all the time. But characters like Superman (Pre-Crisis) should just be Massively FTL+ and have Time Travel listed on powers and abilities; no Immeasurable speed at all.
Wally West's speed is fine because his speed fluctuates and he is sometimes able to fight at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds, but not all the time. But characters like Superman (Pre-Crisis) should just be Massively FTL+ and have Time Travel listed on powers and abilities; no Immeasurable speed at all.
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Okay. You may be correct. I am not the best person to ask.
Anyway, can somebody remind me what we need to do here please? Other than start to remove immeasurable speed from the inappropriate entires in the list that I quoted above that is.
Anyway, can somebody remind me what we need to do here please? Other than start to remove immeasurable speed from the inappropriate entires in the list that I quoted above that is.
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It was just to clarify and then the list was brought up by another member so I thinks that's it
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Okay. Help to decide which of the listed profile pages (and all other characters from their verses that scale from the same feats) that should have immeasurable speed removed would be very appreciated.
@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Dargoo_Faust @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245
Are you willing to help out here with that task please?
@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Dargoo_Faust @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245
Are you willing to help out here with that task please?
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I made this suggestion and YuriAkuto agreed with me.
I think a thread for these other characters should be made first so others have a chance of making a case for them before we remove their speed ratings.
Especially since we would need to decide what tier of speed to rate them as anyway if they’re to be downgraded.
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