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Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

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The immeasurable speed flows directly from Solaris’ attacks being temporal omnipresent, thus it’s not an assumption but a conclusion.

My argument was again not that I am right, just that your argument to User was wrong.

Also I edited my post, this wasn’t the only thing for immeasurable speed after all.
 
AKM sama said:
If your assumption was right, we would have seen the meteor as a straight line.

make an assumption.
make another assumption so that the first assumption makes sense.
get the highest speed for the character.
Click to expand...
I’m also glad you said this, since we don’t see Solaris’ body as a cylinder when he turns around. And here you can’t argue that he’s only moving in 3 points in time since he physically can’t do that. Thus here the literal only option is immeasurable speed and by your own admission, immeasurable speed would make sense to not see Solaris’ body as a cylinder.
 
AKM sama said:
Like I said, you need more conclusive and direct evidence for such a speed rating. It seems that every staff member who came on the thread agrees that immeasurable speed due to this is wrong, and the thread is already at page 6 with arguments repeating. Doesn't look like anything will happen at this point. I think it's best to drop this topic and close the thread.
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Since the purpose of the thread was to downgrade those involved from Immeasurability would that not mean that immeasurable goes then?
Greenshifter said:
If his assumption were right, then the hedgehogs and Solaris would have immeasurable speed and be fast enough to not see a straight line.

It does seem like we’re kinda stuck on this point. So why don’t we switch to Solaris’ core? My argument is basically that Solaris phase 2’s body would be an impenetrable cylinder with the core in the middle, the moment he decides to turn around. Thus the hedgehogs need to have immeasurable speed to defeat Solaris before his temporal omnipresence sets in (after turning around in the past for instance) which would make him impossible to defeat (since you need to hit his core multiple times to defeat him).
Click to expand...
No actually. Because once again, immeasurability would not solve the problem in that instance. If Solaris is temporally omnipresent there would never be a point in time in which the core wasn't covered.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Solaris is temporally omnipresent there would never be a point in time in which the core wasn't covered.
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AKM disagrees with that:

“make an assumption.
make another assumption so that the first assumption makes sense”

Here the first assumption is: Solaris’ attacks are temporal omnipresent thus his attacks appear as a straight line
The second “assumption” is: Hedgehogs have immeasurable speed thus they don’t see it as a straight line.

In other words, AKM said that the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed would make sense to not see the attacks as a straight line while still being temporally omnipresent.

The same can be said about Solaris’ body.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Since the purpose of the thread was to downgrade those involved from Immeasurability would that not mean that immeasurable goes then?
Click to expand...
Oh yeah. I thought this was an upgrade thread or something. My bad.

Greenshifter said:
My argument is basically that Solaris phase 2’s body would be an impenetrable cylinder with the core in the middle, the moment he decides to turn around. Thus the hedgehogs need to have immeasurable speed to defeat Solaris before his temporal omnipresence sets in (after turning around in the past for instance) which would make him impossible to defeat (since you need to hit his core multiple times to defeat him).
Click to expand...
I quite honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. Why would Solaris body be seen as a cylinder to the hedgehogs? The hedgehog will only be able to see the body at "that" point of time.
Greenshifter said:
In other words, AKM said that the hedgehogs having immeasurable speed would make sense to not see the attacks as a straight line while still being temporally omnipresent.
Click to expand...
I never said this. I only said that the meteor would have appeared as a straight line according to your logic if it was shot at 'every' point of time. You used that logic to say Sonic has immeasurable speed since he doesn't see it as that. I only refuted the first assumption you made and never addressed the second one.
 
AKM sama said:
Why would Solaris body be seen as a cylinder to the hedgehogs? The hedgehog will only be able to see the body at "that" point of time.
Click to expand...
That point of time gets continuously overwritten by Solaris moving though, if he starts the fight by looking right at Sonic and then turns to the side some time later then that will also result in his past self at the beginning of the fight turning to the side, thus he is looking at Sonic and is turned to the side at the same time. This is what I mean with all of his states are true at the same time. It’s basically the same reasoning as the straight line you know, just that it’s a cylinder instead of a line. I have no idea how you can agree on straight line but not see Solaris as a cylinder at the same.
AKM sama said:
I only refuted the first assumption you made and never addressed the second one.
Click to expand...
You quite literally said my second assumption makes sense to justify the first one. All this time you’ve only been arguing it being too many assumptions, not that immeasurable speed wouldn’t be an option at all.
 
AKM sama said:
Yes, explicitly states that they will destroy Solaris in past, present and future, three hedgehogs, three points in time. How is that different than what I am saying
Click to expand...
The "past" isn't a singular point in time, neither is the future, the past is all time points prior to the the present moment, the same applies to the future, therefore claiming it only means three points would be incorrect and an assumption of your part, plus Silver was talking about Eggman's statment that you yourself agreed meant temporal onmipresence, the conversation goes as "Eggman: No Knuckles, beating him is impossible because he exists in all time. Silver (while replying to this statment): NO, if he exists in all of time I will destroy him all at once"

You cannot agree with the first statment being temporal onmipresence but the second only being three points only when the second is a response to the first
AKM sama said:
This is an assumption. Just because he is in all times doesn't mean he is firing lasers in all time. Prove it. Show evidence. Don't assume. From what we see, this is only true for the three points in time when he is fighting the hedgehogs. If your assumption was right, we would have seen the meteor as a straight line.
Click to expand...
What I said is not an assumption but a logical conclusion based on the facts we are seeing, Solaris as a being is temporaly onmipresent therefore since that attack is attached to his body that is temporaly onmipresent would necessaraly be temporaly onmipresent otherwise it would be show separate from his body. The only assumption I am seeing here is the hogs only fighting in three time periods, don't close the thread yet because I want to know why you are having that assumption in the first place
 
Also to be clear my argument isn’t necessarily that the hedgehogs will never see Solaris as a cylinder (Solaris probably moved before the hedgehogs fought against phase 1), just that they’re fast enough to defeat phase 2 before his omnipresence makes his core unreachable.
 
Like, let's close the thread after the misconception has been cleared, I can accept the feat being agreed to not be immesurable, however things like "he only attacked in three time periods" is based on fanon, not canon, it's based on generic lines based on the hogs line that fit their characters. There's no proof in the game they only fight in three time periods, it's just a fanon concept that has been ingrained to people's perception of it
 
AKM sama said:
That does not change what I said. Solaris is temporally omnipresent so the first part is no surprise. And the second part will also be true because he is fighting them all at different points in time.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and attacking Solaris in one time period was stated to do nothing. The damage Solaris receives from one hedgehog is shown across all time periods, therefore they each needed to have the ability to attack him in all time periods. If Solaris’s attacks were limited to just one point in time as you presume, then the same laser patterns would not be present immediately when switching characters.
 
AKM sama said:
From what we see, this is only true for the three points in time when he is fighting the hedgehogs.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry to butt in, but, what's making you assume Sonic, Shadow, and Silver are occupying three specific points in time? They never say a past, present, and future. They say Solaris exists just, "in past, present, and future". That would indicate "all of time" more so than three specific eras, I believe.

Personally speaking, I don't see how the arguments against immeasurable could be solid, at the moment. It seems like immeasurable makes the most sense, in this case, I feel.
 
Well, Antoniofer hasn't commented on this specific thread, but the last thing he said on another thread was that "The meteors and lasers are not Omnipresent" if they're avoidable even if characters have Immeasurable speed. And the way he sees it not is meteors, and lasers that attack the past, present, and future simultaneously is that it's just attacks that distort space-time or that it can only reach temporal omnipresence once it actually hits the targets. Which from those details alone, there's nothing to base Immeasurable speed off of.

So in other words, Solaris is simply Nigh-Omnipresent via being omnipresent on a temporal scale but not a spatial one. Attacks distort time and space, but there's not really any concrete evidence that all his attacks have temporal omnipresence. And finally and most importantly, there's not Immeasurable speed feats to speak of based on his interpretation of the situation. And it appears every staff member who commented so far agrees with the OP and the downgrade.
 
Not sure how distorting space-time really equates to "attacks that can be witnessed no matter what Hedgehog is fighting at the time when they're all spread out across time". That seems like temporal omnipresent attacks to me, anyway.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well, Antoniofer hasn't commented on this specific thread, but the last thing he said on another thread was that "The meteors and lasers are not Omnipresent" if they're avoidable even if characters have Immeasurable speed. And the way he sees it not is meteors, and lasers that attack the past, present, and future simultaneously is that it's just attacks that distort space-time or that it can only reach temporal omnipresence once it actually hits the targets. Which from those details alone, there's nothing to base Immeasurable speed off of.

So in other words, Solaris is simply Nigh-Omnipresent via being omnipresent on a temporal scale but not a spatial one. Attacks distort time and space, but there's not really any concrete evidence that all his attacks have temporal omnipresence. And finally and most importantly, there's not Immeasurable speed feats to speak of based on his interpretation of the situation. And it appears every staff member who commented so far agrees with the OP and the downgrade.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure you're misconstruing his argument here. He talked about the different types of omnipresence and how certain attacks could distort space-time. I don't think this is relevant here.

I'm also pretty sure he said that temporal omnipresent attacks can be dodged with finite speed though, but I still don't see how.

I also don't know if this changes my core argument.

Edit: I mean Solaris’ core btw.
 
Last edited:
The fact that he still says they can be dodged with finite speed is still alone evidence against Immeasurable speed. Misunderstanding certain details perhaps, but he actually said multiple things and the core of his arguments still points to it not being Immeasurable.

Edit: The Core argument simply means his core needs to be struck across all time periods; thus temporal area of effect too.
 
Last edited:
I would just like to point something out cause if the attacks are temporally omnipresent they still shouldn't be able to dodge with immeasurable means moving beyond linear time but temporally omnipresent means all of time even in reverse or things of the like so if they were immeasurable they would still get hit no matter what so the attacks sure as hell arent temporally omnipresent
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
is that it's just attacks that distort space-time or that it can only reach temporal omnipresence once it actually hits the targets. Which from those details alone, there's nothing to base Immeasurable speed off of.
Click to expand...
Not really, he was talking about general attacks rather than time onmipresent ones when talking about "space and time distortions", but he did directly respond to me saying that finite speed can handle onmipresent attacks so even though I disagree I can't argue with the staff's consensus
 
deonment said:
I would just like to point something out cause if the attacks are temporally omnipresent they still shouldn't be able to dodge with immeasurable means moving beyond linear time but temporally omnipresent means all of time even in reverse or things of the like so if they were immeasurable they would still get hit no matter what so the attacks sure as hell arent temporally omnipresent
Click to expand...
Your comment is nonsensical, refer to my previous posts proving they are indeed temporal onmipresent, just because you think immesurable speed wouldn't be able to dodge them is unrelated to they actualy being temporaly onmipresent
 
deonment said:
I would just like to point something out cause if the attacks are temporally omnipresent they still shouldn't be able to dodge with immeasurable means moving beyond linear time but temporally omnipresent means all of time even in reverse or things of the like so if they were immeasurable they would still get hit no matter what so the attacks sure as hell arent temporally omnipresent
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. An immeasurable speed character sees time as another direction they can move in. While traveling across the time axis, they can dodge a temporally omnipresent attack by moving into a space it doesn’t occupy as it’s being fired at them.
 
More like we've been having long staff discussions about Immeasurable speeds and a mass project to remove it from a lot of verses and characters; with many reasons. There never was a "Regular users get no say" statement; quite the contrary since plenty of regular users were involved in those discussions too. But more like the staff do supervise and decide based on the best points being made rather than who it comes from. We already went over Omnipresent =/= Immeasurable speeds since it's not really movement or velocity per say but just occupying space or time via size. Same with moving in distorted times and a lot of other things.

Still, Solaris was the only reason the Hedgehogs have Immeasurable speed to begin with, so if that feat isn't Immeasurable, then it will go. But characters with finite speed can still dodge attacks that have temporal omnipresence by lack spatial omnipresence according to other staff. There were also already other explanations, but I don't have time or stamina to repeat those details atm.
 
Then I assume Immeasurable will get removed from some Archie profiles as well, since Solaris scaling seemed to be the main crux behind Immeasurable for them.
 
JJSliderman said:
Then I assume Immeasurable will get removed from some Archie profiles as well, since Solaris scaling seemed to be the main crux behind Immeasurable for them.
Click to expand...
Not entirely since iirc Ian Flynn confirmed Sonic Man walking out of stopped time was a speed feat, and done via sheer speed, so maybe that can stay.
 
I'm not sure if I fully agree with the Immeasurable nuke but
I suppose it's not my place to say.
Isn't it still possible to keep it if Solaris exists at more than 3 specific points in time?
 
It'll be easier to get Irrelevant than Immeasurable at this rate, assuming Irrelevant still exists after the 1-A revisions.

Well, if he's losing Immeasurable is Type 2 Acausal still in the cards for him?
 
I feel like it's also important to clear up if Solaris exists across the entirety of time, or just three specific points.
Because if it's the former then they would still need to travel through time to some degree to fight him.
 
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