It's that TIME again.(Jiren, Goku and Hit potential upgrade, DBS)

[Aeyu]

There is a difference in saying:

"The entire world of Void is shaking"

Said statement is not contradicted and said void has already been mention as Infinite and...


"Jiren transcends time"

Which has little to no context and is severely contradicted by his feats and as I said could imply that Jiren is unaffected by Hit's time skip. This makes far more sense as it was first stated by Vados of all people (the angel of Hit's Universe).


So it's not about the sources being reliable. It's about what they actually mean and said statements not being contradictory.

How is it contradicted by feats?

And it was said that his power transcends time.

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

Let's have a tally.

Votes for Low 2-C Jiren: 0

Votes for Time Hax Resistance Jiren: 1 (We'll keep going as this thread goes on)

 

[Aeyu]

Let's have a tally.
Votes for Low 2-C Jiren: 0

Votes for Time Hax Resistance Jiren: 1 (We'll keep going as this thread goes on)

>implying there's been nobody who supports the upgrade

K

Also, I'll say it again: At least wait until other staff see it, first.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

No one is mentioning how the Grand Priest just changed the appearance of the whole World of Void? Is that a good feat?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I vote for 1-A Jiren ovo

 

[LordGinSama]

This outta end good. Imo we should wait till the end of this arc before jumping to any upgrades. However I do agree with Jiren being stronger than Infinite Zamasu but as I said before we should wait till the end of the arc.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

And yet we clearly saw Jiren powering through Hit's Time-Lock which further supports the idea that Jiren has resistance to Hit's Time based techniques.

We still need solidified proof that Jiren is indeed Low 2-C.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

This entire thread needs to be hit with Occam's Razor.

>Applying Occam's razor in the face of solid statements and scaling
Just because people don't want something (bias, logic) doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

Except that the statement flies in the face of how to overcome Hit's time based hax. Again, Goku demonstrated it by literally overpowering it two arcs eariler.

Not to mention that Jiren only overcame a hax that was focused soley on him. It did not encompass the entire universe's Space-Time.

So the choice is between Jiren being Low 2-C/having Immeasurable Speed vs simply being powerful enough to resist the Time hax, which we already have a precedent for. I'm going with the option that's less farfetched.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

As much as I hate it this is more evidence for stronger characters in Dragon Ball negating hax from weaker characters. At this point you have to look for exceptions to this rule.

As sacred as we hold hax on this site I think this is a legitimate issue.

 

[LegendsVII]

So should Hit get a "High 3-A with Time-Lock", or?

 

[Ryukama]

No one is mentioning how the Grand Priest just changed the appearance of the whole World of Void? Is that a good feat?

Changing the color of something isn't an AP feat. Even if saying it is it isn't any higher than what he's already rated as.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

Ah ok. When I first saw it it seemed pretty impressive.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

No one is mentioning how the Grand Priest just changed the appearance of the whole World of Void? Is that a good feat?

Well it is still High 3-A but it would be great to add it to GP's justificacion as a stand-alone feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah disagreeing with this heavily for reasons above.

Heck according to a thread I was on before, Infinite Zamasu might even get downgraded.

We need much more actual proof for anything more in DB being Low 2-C.

 

[Peter1129]

So should Hit get a "High 3-A with Time-Lock", or?

Pretty sure Hit is going to be 3-A Possibly/Likely High 3―A since he was able to slightly damage Jiren with his attacks. And survive hundreds of blows from Jiren. As well as being considered by Jiren to be the only two fighters in the entire tournament that's worth his time.

 

[Aeyu]

This entire thread needs to be hit with Occam's Razor.

>Applying Occam's razor in the face of solid statements and scaling
Just because people don't want something (bias, logic) doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered.

Except that the statement flies in the face of how to overcome Hit's time based hax. Again, Goku demonstrated it by literally overpowering it two arcs eariler.
Not to mention that Jiren only overcame a hax that was focused soley on him. It did not encompass the entire universe's Space-Time.

So the choice is between Jiren being Low 2-C/having Immeasurable Speed vs simply being powerful enough to resist the Time hax, which we already have a precedent for. I'm going with the option that's less farfetched.

It's not just based on that statement, though, as I've been saying throughout the thread. It's based off of the fact that Low 2-C was already being considered last week before the High 3-A upgrades got introduced. If anything, I myself support a "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C," rating above a straight Low 2-C one, but I still think it's something that should be considered further than "vague statement". The statement only adds fuel to an argument that existed previously.

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

As much as I hate it this is more evidence for stronger characters in Dragon Ball negating hax from weaker characters. At this point you have to look for exceptions to this rule.
As sacred as we hold hax on this site I think this is a legitimate issue.

I think the biggest example of Hax negation for stronger characters in Dragon Ball is the fact that Shenron's wishes cannot affect those who are stronger than him like the Saiyans in the Saiyan Saga, he couldn't bring Goku back to Earth against his will in the Frieza Saga, Android 18 couldn't be turned human again, etc.

 

[Aeyu]

The higher end High 3-A regarding time is a given now, however, and should be added to their profiles if NOTHING else. It furthers solidifies a ranking we have already had argued about for a week now.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Well High end High 3-A might be plausible but I want to hear the others thoughts about it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think the biggest example of Hax negation for stronger characters in Dragon Ball is the fact that Shenron's wishes cannot affect those who are stronger than him like the Saiyans in the Saiyan Saga, he couldn't bring Goku back to Earth against his will in the Frieza Saga, Android 18 couldn't be turned human again, etc.

You do realize the strength of Shenron relies on the power of the one who created him right?

Its not at all a matter of his wishes not working on stronger foes.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

But depending on strength proves his point...

If Shenron's powers were able to effect stronger people it would be a solid case against Hax<Power in DB.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Well High end High 3-A might be plausible but I want to hear the others thoughts about it.

What would it even be called though? High 3-A+?

 

[Aeyu]

I still wanna see the other staff members, whose thoughts last week supported a Low 2-C rating, particularly Matthew Schroeder's, reaction to this.

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

I understand that but think about it. Shenron can recreate planets, resurrect people, turn people immortal, and a plethora of other things, but none of his magic works on people stronger than his creator. That's still hax negation via being physically stronger when you really think about it.

 

[Aeyu]

Well High end High 3-A might be plausible but I want to hear the others thoughts about it.

What would it even be called though? High 3-A+?

Could be called that if High 3-A was ever revised. But no, just High 3-A, but with an explanation in their AP next to the High Universe level ranking. I still stand by my arguments for Possibly Low 2-C, however.

 

[AguilaR101]

1.I stand by by argument that Jiren has a level of 4-D High 3-A given how the statement is explicitly mentioned to be in reference to his strength, not speed like some peope are claiming.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

What would it even be called though? High 3-A+?

Its still High 3-A. Just the less than Universal 4-Dimensional portion of it that is being argued.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Or its simply a weakness in Shenrons hax...

We've denies power>hax for idek how long here for DB and we are not about to end it now. You'll have to convince a lot of people, otherwise its a HUGE NO. Period.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why would anyone assume that Jiren has Immeasurable speed?


It was stated that Jiren's power transcends Time, not his speed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Repuzan

Please close this thread. This honestly is getting ridiculous at this point.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Well can we put in the upgrades that are at least agreed upon before this thread is closed? Resistance to Time Manipulation for Jiren and High 3-A for Hit.

 

[Aeyu]

@Repuzan
Please close this thread. This honestly is getting ridiculous at this point.

Closing threads because you don't like them is ludicrous, and future threads WILL be made about this even if it is.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Repuzan
Please close this thread. This honestly is getting ridiculous at this point.

There's really no point, a hundred other threads like this will pop up with the exact same question.

 

[Aeyu]

I still say wait until more staff see this. It seems a pretty split issue.

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

What about Jiren and Goku resisting Hit's time-stop out of pure power or Chiaotzu's telekinesis not effecting Nappa or Future Trunks blocking Dabura's petrifying spit or Vegeta resisting Babidi's mind control? Those are all notable examples of Power>Hax in Dragon Ball. That's on top of Goku resisting Hakai and Hit's time-stop and Jiren resisting Hit's Time-Lock.

 

[Ryukama]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but why High 3-A for Hit? The only things that got to Jiren was that dura negating blast and time-stopping him. It didn't seem like they were conventional AP attacks that harmed him. And Jiren glared Hit's ultimate attack back. They clearly aren't on the same level.

 

[Aeyu]

This, as well. It seems more like Jiren was too powerful for Hit's abilities.

 

[LordGinSama]

Exactly let's get this over with now. Move it to the staff discussions board if need be. I honestly think we should wait for Mathew to give his opinion on this before we close this.

 

[Aeyu]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but why High 3-A for Hit? The only things that got to Jiren was that dura negating blast and time-stopping him. It didn't seem like they were conventional AP attacks that harmed him. And Jiren glared Hit's ultimate attack back. They clearly aren't on the same level.

I support a more At least 3-A or 3-A, possibly High 3-A since he damaged Jiren, if even slightly. If Jiren was infinitely superior to Hit, Hit wouldn't have been able to affect him at all, something that only he and Goku were able to do. Additionally, Jiren mentions how Goku and Hit were his only threats in the tournament.

 

[Aeyu]

Exactly let's get this over with now. Move it to the staff discussions board if need be. I honestly think we should wait for Mathew to give his opinion on this before we close this.

I agree. Matt was one of the staff members whom I recall supporting a Low 2-C upgrade even last week, and I think he might see this as a stronger argument, honestly.