Just gonna elaborate more on some of our points, because why not?
Essentially, our overarching argument is that the original thread hinges on affirming the consequent [When P exists, it has Q properties. Q properties are observed for something, therefore it is P]. Conceptual Manipulation is an umbrella with multiple characteristics, each of which result in various powers. A majority of the arguments in the original thread amounted to listing out the characteristics of Type 1 Concepts, then working backwards by assuming that since star seeds display powers which are often consequences of the characteristics of Conceptual Manipulation, they should have Conceptual Manipulation. Many of the examples given for star seeds are powers that are shared by a variety of things like normal souls or minds, or misinterpreted altogether.
Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern
Even though star seeds pertain to the thing they form, they can be taken and used independently. The
Sailor Animamates took the Sailor Crystals of dead Sailor Senshi and used it to power themselves. If star seeds were dependent on their forms, they would disappear when those forms are destroyed or erased. (Sailor Crystals are "super" star seeds for those who don't know)
Many non-physical aspects of existence still exist when the physical thing they define is destroyed, that's why they're non-physical aspects of existence. This goes for spiritual aspects like souls, as in nearly all works of fiction, the soul doesn't disappear when a physical form is erased and instead goes to an afterlife. To argue otherwise is to argue that existence erasure is spiritual erasure by default.
The alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
When Tuxedo Kamen was
erased in the past, his future self was
still alive in the future and his daughter, Chibi-Usa, was unaffected by her father dying in the past. When Tuxedo Kamen was
pushed into the galaxy cauldron and his star seed was destroyed. Chibi-Usa, his daughter from the future, was immediately
erased from history, meaning everything that was dependent on him ceased to exist.
The argument is that star seeds provide acausality, which is a possible power resulting from the CM1 characteristic of being independent from reality. Now, it's worth pointing out that the sequence of events above leaves out a key detail. The argument follows that future Tuxedo Mask was just fine when his past self was just physically erased in order to extract his star seed, but he disappeared the instant his past self's actual star seed was erased, hence reliant acausality via star seeds. However, this is ignoring an event in between. After past Tuxedo Mask and the Sailor Guardians were physically erased in order to have their star seeds stolen,
we're actually shown that all of their future counterparts eventually collapsed and started to fade away due to that action.
The stolen past star seeds also had their immense power maintained to prevent them from losing light too, so the star seeds were clearly intact up until the point they were erased. Seeing as they started disappearing in the future after their physical forms were destroyed, and even before their past star seeds were destroyed, it would seem that star seeds
do not grant acausality, but resistance to causality manipulation.
Moreover, I'll bring back a point that I believe has been ignored by every single opponent thus far. The premise here is that star seeds provide acausality, which can apparently be attributed only to Type 1 Concepts. However, the premise also depends on the fact that Chibi-Usa was affected by her father disappearing in the past... which contradicts her own star seed providing her with acausality. Does Tuxedo Mask's concept encompass his daughter? I thought all sailor guardians had independent concepts, spanning the planets or ideas which their titles are named for.
In addition, it's broadly agreed by both sides here most beings, places, and objects living and inorganic, have star seeds. Does this mean that all regular people, spaces, and objects have acausality? The acausality argument comes off as a mess from every possible angle...
It's not just celestial objects like stars and planets. It's everything including all living things. Including all shapes, sizes, and names. This is not just for physical beings, but non-physical beings such as Metallia who is
pure darkness,
Death Phantom, whose true form is his resentment,
ghosts, and
Gods. The galaxy cauldron through star seeds give form to all things..
Star Seeds also give rise to ideals/abstractions. Sailor Senshi represent certain abstractions as part of their powers, which ultimately comes from their star seed.
I don't know if the point about star seeds shaping non-physical beings was meant to be supporting evidence for star seeds being the source of
all things and not just organic beings, or evidence for the star seeds being abstract in nature. If it's the latter, then it's a simple non-sequitur to suggest that creating incorporeal objects=being abstract.
Regardless, it's argued that a being who is pure darkness, one whose true form is resentment, one who is a ghost, and one who is a god, are all shaped by star seeds.
- The first one is described precisely as "an alien life-form with no physical substance or a mass of solid darkness." Not only is there doubt as to its true nature in the scan provided, but both descriptions more easily match definitions of intangibility.
- Nothing about Death Phantom having a "true form of resentment" is mentioned in the scan, it says that the villain Death Phantom's resentment was absorbed by the planet Nemesis and used as fuel to project its own power. This interpretation is wildly different.
- Ghosts are spiritual beings by default definition, and spirits aren't the kinds of abstracts involved in abstract concepts, seeing as the first line of the Metaphysical Aspects page makes a distinction between spiritual aspects (mind/soul) and metaphysical ones.
- "Gods" has a different meaning from verse to verse, I don't see how this helps here.
As for the part about Sailor Senshi representing certain abstractions, I have yet to see an argument across this thread in favor of this that isn't circular or vibes-based. They "represent certain ideas" in that Sailor Moon and Sailor Venus have certain ideas which their titles are named for (the Moon or the planet Venus), like Galaxia being the Sailor of Destruction. They're also in charge of what their titles represent, so Sailor Moon watches over the Moon and is the monarch of it. However, there is no evidence that Sailor Moon controls the concept of the Moon, or Sailor Galaxia controls the concept of destruction. The only arguments are either circular ("They're conceptual just because the vibes are there! They're in charge of celestial bodies, named after them, have powers related to them, it just makes sense!"), or demands to prove negatives ("I haven't proven that they represent their titles on the conceptual level, but prove that they don't!"). As mentioned at the end of our OP, star seeds are generally non-metaphysical objects susceptible to physical phenomena.
Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even being unaffected by abilities that can't target the abstraction.
Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.
The statements provided for them embodying their titles in the first place are very poor. Unless I've missed something, Sailor Venus being the "incarnation of Venus" is sloppy. The scan gallery literally confirms multiple times that the "Venus" which she is supposedly the incarnation of is the Roman goddess.
Also, what is the purpose of the last two scans in the gallery? Seeing as it highlights the raw text of the part about star seeds having "perfect forms," which is also being used in another thread to argue that star seeds are platonic for some bizarre reason, I'll assume that's the objective. I wanted to point this out if I had a chance to respond to the staff thread for Beyond-Dimensional Existence Type 2 in Sailor Moon, but I might as well respond now.
This is the scan used elsewhere to prove that star seeds have "perfect forms." However,
this offical translation which is actually provided in the gallery above is more contextual, stating that Guardian Cosmos should have had trouble maintaining their
complete star seeds inside the cauldron. This is because the galaxy cauldron erases whatever enters it. Since OP provided the raw for that statement,
I also put it through simple MTL (if everyone's fine with that) and it translates as "It's amazing that the stars can be perfectly preserved inside this cauldron." In other words, "perfect" means
intact, not "perfect" in the hyperspecific context of platonism. That's extremely clear to anyone who reads the actual chapter, and clear to the OP too, seeing as they switch between 2 different translations and cherrypick their implications when convenient.
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