• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Sans' intangible attacks

JustANormalLemon said:
In favor: It expands the lore of undertale, show more conterparts of the characters from deltarune in undertale, show more sides of the characters and the fact the ghast door isn't black and white implies toby was playing "the original undertale'

Cons: The entire spamtom scene
Click to expand...
I'm a bit iffy on it.

Observation: It seems like all of the attacks other than Sans's that pass through you are meant to be big and heavy, things you wouldn't really be able to just block. We know Sans is physically really strong (at least w/ magic) from how easily he broke that giant branch at the start of the game.

So maybe it's just an indicator that the attack is really strong.
 
I don't think spamton sweepstakes stuff should remove the canonicity of the anniversary stream at all. Sweepstakes already gave us tons of canonical DT lore so I think that, as long as we remove it, it all works perfectly.
Toby wanted to show us that there's more to the UT world than we imagine and we already know the world can be different with the PS and Nintendo Switch special rooms and bosses existing. This is an expansion, not just noncanon funny stuff.
 
FinePoint said:
Observation: It seems like all of the attacks other than Sans's that pass through you are meant to be big and heavy, things you wouldn't really be able to just block. We know Sans is physically really strong (at least w/ magic) from how easily he broke that giant branch at the start of the game.
Click to expand...
Uhh…
tumblr_inline_o2ntoszumk1qda68o_500.png
 
FinePoint said:
Observation: It seems like all of the attacks other than Sans's that pass through you are meant to be big and heavy, things you wouldn't really be able to just block. We know Sans is physically really strong (at least w/ magic) from how easily he broke that giant branch at the start of the game.
Click to expand...
The fact that you said this for Sans of all people is wild.

Also lmao at calling the branch thing impressive for UT standards.
 
FinePoint said:
Observation: It seems like all of the attacks other than Sans's that pass through you are meant to be big and heavy, things you wouldn't really be able to just block. We know Sans is physically really strong (at least w/ magic) from how easily he broke that giant branch at the start of the game.

So maybe it's just an indicator that the attack is really strong.
Click to expand...
How to tell me you've never touched Sans' fight without telling me you've never touched Sans' fight before.

1 Atk. 1 Def. ******* Monster Kid is stronger than this guy in terms of stats.
 
FinePoint said:
I'm a bit iffy on it.

Observation: It seems like all of the attacks other than Sans's that pass through you are meant to be big and heavy, things you wouldn't really be able to just block. We know Sans is physically really strong (at least w/ magic) from how easily he broke that giant branch at the start of the game.

So maybe it's just an indicator that the attack is really strong.
Click to expand...
when-you-realize-your-goats-washed-v0-fo39dggseqic1.png
 
The branch isn't impressive from the perspective of our powerscaling-rotted brains, no, but it was clearly meant to convey the fact he was strong and him breaking it so easily was meant to be kind of scary.

I'm not saying that the feat has any relevance to his AP, but may have some thematic connection to attacks phasing through the heart based on the other ones that do being things which are big and presumably hard to block (axes, giant spiders, etc).

Also, who is writing the check text here exactly? If it's us, why do we call him the easiest enemy despite knowing it's not true?

If it is him, who's to say he's not just trolling since he clearly has some knowledge and minor control over the meta functions?

You're free to take that text at face-value, but I'm free to be skeptical. There's no need to make fun of me just because we disagree.
 
Anyway, in terms of an actual vote, I'd be fine with either:

A.) All monsters whose attacks pass through the soul get intangible attacks.
B.) It's just game mechanics and none of them do (where I would lean more unless we determine the anniversary stream canon).

Sans only getting it is the only thing that definitely doesn't make sense to me here.
 
FinePoint said:
The branch isn't impressive from the perspective of our powerscaling-rotted brains, no, but it was clearly meant to convey the fact he was strong and him breaking it so easily was meant to be kind of scary.
Click to expand...
"Kind of scary" in a world filled of people with 9-A feats lol.
FinePoint said:
Also, who is writing the check text here exactly? If it's us, why do we call him the easiest enemy despite knowing it's not true?
Click to expand...
If you want to discredit the stats scaling, then you gotta do a CRT to basically remove that (good luck though).
FinePoint said:
You're free to take that text at face-value, but I'm free to be skeptical. There's no need to make fun of me just because we disagree.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's something that has been coming because you're basically saying that Sans is far above 1 ATK/DEF which is pretty much against one of the core parts of his character.
 
StrymULTRA said:
"Kind of scary" in a world filled of people with 9-A feats lol.

If you want to discredit the stats scaling, then you gotta do a CRT to basically remove that (good luck though).
Click to expand...
I don't need to nor want to. I'm arguing around theming here. There are characters with more ATK than others that have smaller, easier to dodge/bullet-based attacks, and thematically it makes sense that these ones 'disappear' when they hit you while larger ones like a giant axe don't.

Maybe it just indicates that Sans is really going all-out in these attacks, hence why he gets tired so fast.

All I'm suggesting is that maybe there's an explanation for why some attacks 'pass through' and others 'disappear' when in contact with the SOUL other than some attacks being literally intangible physically.
StrymULTRA said:
Actually, it's something that has been coming because you're basically saying that Sans is far above 1 ATK/DEF which is pretty much against one of the core parts of his character.
Click to expand...
Making fun of me has never been 'coming'. I resent that kind of bully attitude.
 
FinePoint said:
I don't need to nor want to. I'm arguing around theming here. There are characters with more ATK than others that have smaller, easier to dodge/bullet-based attacks, and thematically it makes sense that these ones 'disappear' when they hit you while larger ones like a giant axe don't.

Maybe it just indicates that Sans is really going all-out in these attacks, hence why he gets tired so fast.
Click to expand...
Again, are you saying that Sans is actually stronger than 1 ATK/DEF, despite the fact that his attacks without KR inflict only 1 damage without KR?

Stats are also shown to display the maximum potential of a monster even when they hold backm Toriel being an example.
FinePoint said:
All I'm suggesting is that maybe there's an explanation for why some attacks 'pass through' and others 'disappear' when in contact with the SOUL other than some attacks being literally intangible physically.
Click to expand...
I think the anniversary stuff is pretty much confirming it though?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Again, are you saying that Sans is actually stronger than 1 ATK/DEF, despite the fact that his attacks without KR inflict only 1 damage without KR?
Click to expand...
No, I'm saying his attacks might be particularly hard to block and/or have a lot of effort behind them and that's why they pass through instead of vanishing, which would align thematically with other attacks which do the same thing.
StrymULTRA said:
Stats are also shown to display the maximum potential of a monster even when they hold backm Toriel being an example.
Click to expand...
Then they're obviously just wrong, as Sans clearly has immense 'potential'. It's possible all the stats are accurate except his, since he as a penchant for messing with the game mechanics.

That said, again, I'm not even trying to make any AP claims here, just thematic ones.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
StrymULTRA said:
I think the anniversary stuff is pretty much confirming it though?
Click to expand...
Indeed, but we have yet to fully decide if that's canon.

If we decide it is, then I have no objections (though think we'd still need to give it to all the other monsters whose attacks pass through).
 
FinePoint said:
All I'm suggesting is that maybe there's an explanation for why some attacks 'pass through' and others 'disappear' when in contact with the SOUL other than some attacks being literally intangible physically.
Click to expand...
The problem is that literally any monster who fights us has above 1 stats, and they don’t have intangible attacks. You’d have to discredit all of stats scaling and pretty much nuke the entire chainscaling UT profiles rely on.

StrymULTRA said:
I think the anniversary stuff is pretty much confirming it though?
Click to expand...
Maybe interpretation would be that since Sans is holding back, his attacks became weaker and are not stronk enough to be intangible or smth. Idk.
 
FinePoint said:
Then they're obviously just wrong, as Sans clearly has immense 'potential'. It's possible all the stats are accurate except his, since he as a penchant for messing with the game mechanics.
Click to expand...
He has potential because he ignores durability altogether and inflict karma. Not because he deals 80 damage per attack otherwise. As Strym said, without KR, his damage is 1.

I’m pretty sure you can beat Sans without even moving if there was no KR… I’d find a Youtube video for you but I have bad Internet here right now.
FinePoint said:
If we decide it is, then I have no objections (though think we'd still need to give it to all the other monsters whose attacks pass through).
Click to expand...
Yeah I think this is the best solution.
 
FinePoint said:
Then they're obviously just wrong, as Sans clearly has immense 'potential'. It's possible all the stats are accurate except his, since he as a penchant for messing with the game mechanics.
Click to expand...
Can we not with this argument about "stats can be wrong because characters can mess with them" argument? I thought that died back in 2020, we're not going back to arguments on the level of "Asriel's infinite stats are wrong as he could've just messed with the code", absolutely not.

Yours is just incredulity, as even in his most "effort" attack he can still deal just 1 damage per slam, which lines with the check description.
FinePoint said:
That said, again, I'm not even trying to make any AP claims here, just thematic ones.
Click to expand...
But we mostly don't really use thematics, as it's just vibes there.
FinePoint said:
If we decide it is, then I have no objections (though think we'd still need to give it to all the other monsters whose attacks pass through).
Click to expand...
I mean, if other monsters can, then sure. Just give to both them and Sans something like "Selective Intangibility (For attacks only: stuff)" and be done with it.
 
Finepoint, mate, even ME, the guy who despises how UT is scaled right now, who thinks 9-A Sans is a ******* meme among memes, thinks that the check stats are solid.

Sans uses dura neg to be dangerous. See the pacifist fight Toby released to see exactly what happens when he isn't dura negging.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
The problem is that literally any monster who fights us has above 1 stats, and they don’t have intangible attacks. You’d have to discredit all of stats scaling and pretty much nuke the entire chainscaling UT profiles rely on.
Click to expand...
Not if you assume it's game mechanics based more on the theme of the attack than its actual potency (though nuking the chainscaling from the stats may be a good idea don't tempt me).

Since my opinion depends on it, we should probably just move on to discussing whether it's canon before worrying about it anyway.

The Spamton part is giving me some serious doubts, but maybe I could be convinced.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Yours is just incredulity, as even in his most "effort" attack he can still deal just 1 damage per slam, which lines with the check description.

But we mostly don't really use thematics, as it's just vibes there.
Click to expand...
Half of what we do here is vibes, especially in considering whether a game mechanic is literal or not.
DaReaperMan said:
Finepoint, mate, even ME, the guy who despises how UT is scaled right now, who thinks 9-A Sans is a ******* meme among memes, thinks that the check stats are solid.
Click to expand...
Well, if you agree with it then it must be true.
DaReaperMan said:
Sans uses dura neg to be dangerous. See the pacifist fight Toby released to see exactly what happens when he isn't dura negging.
Click to expand...
I saw, and it's convincing, but I'm questioning whether any of it is canon.

If you think it is, then I invite you to explain the Spamton scene.

There's also a larger consideration of how much merit it has as a standalone live-stream as opposed to a playable release of the game.
 
FinePoint said:
I saw, and it's convincing, but I'm questioning whether any of it is canon.

If you think it is, then I invite you to explain the Spamton scene.

There's also a larger consideration of how much merit it has as a standalone live-stream as opposed to a playable release of the game.
Click to expand...
They're in the same multiverse. If it's that much of an issue give Spamton dimensional travel Goff Rokker style.
 
FinePoint said:
If you think it is, then I invite you to explain the Spamton scene.
Click to expand...
An explanation can be this:
  1. I think it's meant to be just a funny thing made from Spamton A. Spamton with no real impact on the lore.
  2. The "real world" is actually a thing in-verse (which is not surprising given the Player shenanigans), though this means that Omega Flowey can affect to a degree also said real world lol.
Personally I am leaning on the first as Toby himself straight up called Spamton A. Spamton not canon, while we can simply take that the additions to the game to be canon as they're genuine expansions of the original game, while Spamton A. Spamton made it by literally hacking the game to replace the cutscene of Sans at Grillby's with Spamton.

Like I don't really want to sound a "let's cherrypick only this thing as not canon", but the Spamton cutscene happened because of literal outside interference, and not a native part of the "true game" that Toby played.
 
DaReaperMan said:
They're in the same multiverse. If it's that much of an issue give Spamton dimensional travel Goff Rokker style.
Click to expand...
I suppose we'd have to.

It's weird, but if that's what y'all really want to do I'll support it.

It would at least be consistent.
StrymULTRA said:
Personally I am leaning on the first as Toby himself straight up called Spamton A. Spamton not canon, while we can simply take that the additions to the game to be canon as they're genuine expansions of the original game, while Spamton A. Spamton made it by literally hacking the game to replace the cutscene of Sans at Grillby's with Spamton.
Click to expand...
Well, he said nothing THERE was canon. The fact that he's aware of and willing to make an announcement about that kind of thing (and didn't this time) does kind of hint that it's all canon to some multiversal element (which seems heavily implied, but I don't remember if explicitly confirmed.)
 
FinePoint said:
Well, he said nothing THERE was canon. The fact that he's aware of and willing to make an announcement about that kind of thing (and didn't this time) does kind of hint that it's all canon to some multiversal element (which seems heavily implied, but I don't remember if explicitly confirmed.)
Click to expand...
That is also a good point.

Toby usually goes his way to say if something he made is canon or not, and even in the livestream he said that he prefers to leave stuff to interpretation, meaning that if he wants something to be interpreted in a certain way, he'll make it clear.
 
Tbh I think a CRT regarding the Canon status of the 10th anniversary is in order, since I think this is not the place to discuss it.

There are relatively few things that it adds (like Omega Flowey being now the official name over Photoshop Flowey), but it's still better to do it elsewhere while putting this thread on a pause.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Tbh I think a CRT regarding the Canon status of the 10th anniversary is in order, since I think this is not the place to discuss it.

There are relatively few things that it adds (like Omega Flowey being now the official name over Photoshop Flowey), but it's still better to do it elsewhere while putting this thread on a pause.
Click to expand...
Can we treat it like some form of extended canon that is separate from what we already know?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Locked
Undertale CRT
Replies
30
Views
5K
VIZION99
Oikarian
Undertale and Deltarune are getting a buff
2
Replies
55
Views
5K
Oikarian
Oikarian
ShionAH
Really Controversial Sans CRT...
2 3
Replies
118
Views
6K
ShionAH
ShionAH
  • Locked
Disarming the Second Nuke | Re-Evaluating Undertale Electricity and Sound Scaling
2
Replies
47
Views
2K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Rodriiogo
  • Locked
The nuking of Undertale: Part 2 out of 6 or 7 | "Faster than Sound? Not even Faster than a car."
8 9 10
Replies
392
Views
26K
Axorandom0
Axorandom0
Back
Top