The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,477
- 1,497
Since @Damage3245 decided to close his own thread abruptly, and how no one even managed to address my arguments here during the whole thread, I am making this one to highlight these points and again argue for 5-C 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi characters. This will make it more difficult for anyone to ignore these points.
""At that moment it became the most powerful lethal technique that had been seen in Dragon Ball, and Goku had no choice but to dodge it by flying. By the way, in the previous edition they had destroyed the booth at the tournament venue and the Moon, and in this the ring"
Credits: ChronoUTL.
This was brought up in the earlier thread and made Damage concede to a possibly
This is not allowed. This is a direct confirmation that the Kikoho is stronger than Roshi's MAX Kamehameha. It's not vague. It's not non-definitive.
"Possibly
Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly." - Attack Potency Page
None of this applies to the current situation. The evidence is definitive, and is supported by the source material, where Roshi states it's many times more powerful than the Kamehameha!
There also isn't an equal or sufficient counter argument on the opposition.
There is no tangable reason to discard this definitive evidence as just possibly
I'm asking for a full rating, this is undeniable given the arguments presented
So @KingTempest's comments about Tien struggling against Base Roshi are just contradicted by the source material!
Roshi maybe got one or two hits in by having better experience, and Tien holding back significantly since he didn't even know Roshi would be that strong, Roshi doesn't land a single hit after Tien goes full power.
Considering this, it's incredibly weird to consider that the line where Roshi says he would probably lose is refering to his base form, it makes no sense! Roshi didn't stand a chance in base against a full power Tien, the correct statement would be that he would definitely lose had the battle kept going, Tien even says as much based on Roshi's performance, the only thing that could even give Roshi a slight chance at victory would be his Max Power form. Tien should scale to MAX Power Roshi regardless.
Roshi basically admits that he wouldn't been able to defeat Tien, verbatim. Saying he could have done it had he gone all out is just ignoring the line entirely.
EDIT
Why should Roshi scale to his MAX POWER Kamehameha.
This is an example where one's physicals can tank a Super Kamehameha, which is a better version of the regular Kamehameha. Piccolo has the exact same power level of Goku, however.
MAX Power Roshi with his inferior Kamehameha should scale to his own blast. Literally everyone does.
MAX Power Kamehameha is a regular Kamehameha used by someone in the MAX Power form, as the Daizenshuu explained.
Super Kamehameha is an extra-strength version of the regular Kamehameha
EDIT: More evidence that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha used by a character at max power!
"Possibly" 5-C?
So, last thread brought up the fact that Tien's Kikoho being stated as "More powerful than the Kamehameha" might not include the MAX Kamehameha.
Counter point, this scan exists:
"En aquel momento pasó a ser la técnica letal más poderosa que se había visto en Dragon Ball, y Goku no tuvo otra opción que esquivarla volando. Dicho sea de paso, en la edición anterior se habían destruido la caseta del lugar del torneo y la Luna, y en ésta el ring"Counter point, this scan exists:
""At that moment it became the most powerful lethal technique that had been seen in Dragon Ball, and Goku had no choice but to dodge it by flying. By the way, in the previous edition they had destroyed the booth at the tournament venue and the Moon, and in this the ring"
Credits: ChronoUTL.
This was brought up in the earlier thread and made Damage concede to a possibly
This is not allowed. This is a direct confirmation that the Kikoho is stronger than Roshi's MAX Kamehameha. It's not vague. It's not non-definitive.
"Possibly
Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly." - Attack Potency Page
None of this applies to the current situation. The evidence is definitive, and is supported by the source material, where Roshi states it's many times more powerful than the Kamehameha!
There also isn't an equal or sufficient counter argument on the opposition.
There is no tangable reason to discard this definitive evidence as just possibly
I'm asking for a full rating, this is undeniable given the arguments presented
5-C Physicals
I'm simply going to repeat the argument I put up on the downgrade thread to disagree, as, shocker, it wasn't addressed at any point.
I'd like to point out that Tien was never going at full power against Roshi until the very end where he basically dominated the entire fight, Roshi never managed to even hurt him in any way once during their battle.
So @KingTempest's comments about Tien struggling against Base Roshi are just contradicted by the source material!
Roshi maybe got one or two hits in by having better experience, and Tien holding back significantly since he didn't even know Roshi would be that strong, Roshi doesn't land a single hit after Tien goes full power.
Considering this, it's incredibly weird to consider that the line where Roshi says he would probably lose is refering to his base form, it makes no sense! Roshi didn't stand a chance in base against a full power Tien, the correct statement would be that he would definitely lose had the battle kept going, Tien even says as much based on Roshi's performance, the only thing that could even give Roshi a slight chance at victory would be his Max Power form. Tien should scale to MAX Power Roshi regardless.
Roshi basically admits that he wouldn't been able to defeat Tien, verbatim. Saying he could have done it had he gone all out is just ignoring the line entirely.
EDIT
Why should Roshi scale to his MAX POWER Kamehameha.
- It's a regular Kamehameha. As explained by the Daizenshuu, MAX Power Kamehameha is simply a move used by MAX Power Roshi because of his muscles to withstand the energy emitted. It's inferior to Super Kamehameha.
- Super Kamehameha users are not 10 million times weaker than their own ki blasts. Goku's Kamehameha was slightly weaker than Raditz, yet Goku could tank some attacks from Raditz. They are not worlds apart in any way.
This is an example where one's physicals can tank a Super Kamehameha, which is a better version of the regular Kamehameha. Piccolo has the exact same power level of Goku, however.
MAX Power Roshi with his inferior Kamehameha should scale to his own blast. Literally everyone does.
MAX Power Kamehameha is a regular Kamehameha used by someone in the MAX Power form, as the Daizenshuu explained.
Super Kamehameha is an extra-strength version of the regular Kamehameha
EDIT: More evidence that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just a regular Kamehameha used by a character at max power!
- During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
- Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
- Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
- El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
- Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.
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