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Touhou Upgrades
- Thread starter Omnitraxus100
- Start date
- 35
- 32
- Thread starter
- #42
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Yukari is stated to manipulate every existence. This likely includes the entire cosmology and this is backed up by the notion Yukari can undermine all of existence
Yukari has control over all concepts essentially and so she should be able to effect the verse
It wouldn't be an outlier. It would simply mean the Lunarian's are stronger and would scale
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First statement needs proof, and even your specific wording is very open to interpretation. I've already talked about the second. "Undermining reality" doesn't equate damaging ALL of reality, especially when it refers to someone who's capable of reality warping. This is similar to how someone who can manipulate space-time isn't automatically Low 2-C unless we know if they can affect all of space-time. In the context of Yukari's "feat", this is just used to point out that she can warp reality via boundaries.
No concept has ever shown to be on a scale high enough to warrant High 1-C.
Do you...not know the concept of outlier? We can't just say "everyone scales so it's not an outlier" when we get an inconsistency. The verse is currently full of Tier 6 to Tier 4 feats, with only one feat being even remotely close to Tier 3. Having someone on the level of the Youkai Sages e Tier 1 is a huge inconsistency indeed, and contradicts the portrayal of everyone, especially since it's been stated that Yukari alone couldn't have done something on the scale of the Hakurei Barrier (which s not even Low 2-C).
No concept has ever shown to be on a scale high enough to warrant High 1-C.
Do you...not know the concept of outlier? We can't just say "everyone scales so it's not an outlier" when we get an inconsistency. The verse is currently full of Tier 6 to Tier 4 feats, with only one feat being even remotely close to Tier 3. Having someone on the level of the Youkai Sages e Tier 1 is a huge inconsistency indeed, and contradicts the portrayal of everyone, especially since it's been stated that Yukari alone couldn't have done something on the scale of the Hakurei Barrier (which s not even Low 2-C).
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I'd wager and say there's more than a single Tier 3 feat due to a certain Hecatia, and that creating a world in the past with help of others could be ambiguous considering how big and complex Gensokyo is, but either way I strongly disagree with these 'upgrades' as it relies on nothing more than taking everything in face value.
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Which is, again, meaningless.
Udlmaster
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Well, shouldn't Yukari be given Higher Dimensional Manipulation? Being able to Manipulate Dimensions with her Boundary Manipulation? After all, she does have the Spellcard "Boundary of Dimensions"
And Cthulhu EU was given Higher Dimensional Manipulation for manipulating Non-Eluclidion space.
And Cthulhu EU was given Higher Dimensional Manipulation for manipulating Non-Eluclidion space.
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Said spell card was only shown to affect 2D and 3D. At best you can argue she can manipulate space-time, but I don't think we slap Higher Dimensional stuff on people who can do so.
EU Cthulhu is 1-A though. If you mean canon Cthulhu, then 1. Pretty sure that was meant to be removed 2. It's just one reason among many why he has that. By itself it doesn't mean anything.
EU Cthulhu is 1-A though. If you mean canon Cthulhu, then 1. Pretty sure that was meant to be removed 2. It's just one reason among many why he has that. By itself it doesn't mean anything.
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Ugh. I know this wont change anything but im gonna have my say anyway. Yukari being beyond 4-A because "lunarians" is in no way an outlier. If there is something to fully contradict it then it is an outlier. This is like me saying that goku in dragon ball super is not universal because he fights on par with multiple people who have not shown universal feats. those characters are universal by scaling and as would lunarians scale to yukari.
I honestly dont see how yukari destroying reality is in any way a vague statement. It was outright stated. I hate to bring up dbs in this again but even statements in that like shaking the world of void are more vague than this
Then you have hermits being able to create infinitely expanding worlds like sekai which would be universal plus at least considering that manipulating space is the same as manipulating time which is pretty much confimed by the author
Then you have characters like kaguya being able to have multiple parallel histories and scaling to miko. unless there is a different context to that
As for non euclidean, isnt non euclidean space supposed unbound by conventional geometry? Either way im fairly sure that it does have connections to higher dimensions.
The reason the spell card only effects 3D is probably because she would pretty much kill the opponent if she used a fully 4D or higher attack.
For yukari undermining reality is pretty much undeniable no matter the dimensional structure https://imgur.com/a/PGDEqIC It even gives an explanation as to how boundaries in the sense that everything would exist in one place without them. And to be unnafected by something that can literally collapse reality would either mean that you are outside that reality (higher dimensional) or you are able to fly outside of it like reimu. And not only that but beings like the watatsuki sisters are untouchable from even this ability. If it was just undermining reality on its own i could understand your point. However it literally goes on to say that all of existence is built apon boundaries. So no matter what way you slice it, she can destroy reality.
and she can affect the outside world https://imgur.com/a/0M8RuPA which pretty much has its dimensions split from gensokyo.
Then you have the numerous references to quantum mechanics like Schrödinger's cat https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency's_Freak_Report/Story Manipulating wave particle duality and brane cosmology which all tie into quantum mechanics and string theory and references to string theory. All of these together (not just individually) heavily imply gensokyo to follow string theory. Either that of zun just made several references to string theory for no reason.
And then you have suika shattering the heavens which is around the same size (if not larger) as paradise which in wild and horned hermit is confirmed to be a place where people ascend to godhood whos residents previously lived in heaven meaning that the realm was at least capable of containing beings like amithaba who is googols of times greater than the observable universe.
And there is the dream realm controlling all of reality which doremy sweet completely rules over
Edit: And i have no idea why pc 98 isnt cannon when it is basically the reason spellcards were created and doesnt even have anything to really suggest it being non cannon
I honestly dont see how yukari destroying reality is in any way a vague statement. It was outright stated. I hate to bring up dbs in this again but even statements in that like shaking the world of void are more vague than this
Then you have hermits being able to create infinitely expanding worlds like sekai which would be universal plus at least considering that manipulating space is the same as manipulating time which is pretty much confimed by the author
Then you have characters like kaguya being able to have multiple parallel histories and scaling to miko. unless there is a different context to that
As for non euclidean, isnt non euclidean space supposed unbound by conventional geometry? Either way im fairly sure that it does have connections to higher dimensions.
The reason the spell card only effects 3D is probably because she would pretty much kill the opponent if she used a fully 4D or higher attack.
For yukari undermining reality is pretty much undeniable no matter the dimensional structure https://imgur.com/a/PGDEqIC It even gives an explanation as to how boundaries in the sense that everything would exist in one place without them. And to be unnafected by something that can literally collapse reality would either mean that you are outside that reality (higher dimensional) or you are able to fly outside of it like reimu. And not only that but beings like the watatsuki sisters are untouchable from even this ability. If it was just undermining reality on its own i could understand your point. However it literally goes on to say that all of existence is built apon boundaries. So no matter what way you slice it, she can destroy reality.
and she can affect the outside world https://imgur.com/a/0M8RuPA which pretty much has its dimensions split from gensokyo.
Then you have the numerous references to quantum mechanics like Schrödinger's cat https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency's_Freak_Report/Story Manipulating wave particle duality and brane cosmology which all tie into quantum mechanics and string theory and references to string theory. All of these together (not just individually) heavily imply gensokyo to follow string theory. Either that of zun just made several references to string theory for no reason.
And then you have suika shattering the heavens which is around the same size (if not larger) as paradise which in wild and horned hermit is confirmed to be a place where people ascend to godhood whos residents previously lived in heaven meaning that the realm was at least capable of containing beings like amithaba who is googols of times greater than the observable universe.
And there is the dream realm controlling all of reality which doremy sweet completely rules over
Edit: And i have no idea why pc 98 isnt cannon when it is basically the reason spellcards were created and doesnt even have anything to really suggest it being non cannon
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Read this post seems to make sense
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Except that this is not like DBS Goku suddenly showing universal power. This is like Goku back in early DBZ suddenly showing universal power, contradicting pretty much every other feats at his level. It's not comparable to DBS characters showing minor feats and a couple of universal ones.
"Manipulating space is the same as manipulating time" nonsense. ZUN stated that manipulating time means you're able to manipulate space, not the opposite. Even then, that'd just be plain wrong. Even if High 3-A was legit, it'd be an outlier, again.
Don't you use "multiple parallel stories" as an AP feat, because that's far from being one.
Not at all. The only reason one would think that is due to one out-of-context screencap from a G+ dude. At the very best, this would be 4-D, which wouldn't change anything.
I've debunked this at least 3 times now. "Undermining" reality doesn't mean doing significant damage to the universe as a whole, much like how warping reality doesn't mean warping the entire universe. This whole paragraph is meant to show how Yukari's ability can affect an important part of the world: boundaries. But that doesn't mean she can just nuke the universe.
As a metaphor, someone being able to manipulate nails doesn't make them able to destroy all buildings on Earth at once due to most of them using nails. Thus, Yukari being able to manipulate boundaries does not make her able to destroy all of reality at once due to most of it being built on boundaries. Akyuu's statement about reducing all of reality into a single object is equivalent to saying that all buildings on Earth would collapse without nails, thus making nails manipulation a powerful ability.
My dude, the verse following String Theory doesn't mean that Gensokyo itself is 11 Dimensional. By its very nature, Gensokyo is a brane, meaning a 4-D parallel world (according to String Theory, mind you). It is NOT a multiverse containing 11 dimensions.
Your jump in logic makes no sense. "People who ascend to godhood go to Heaven = Amitabha lives in Heaven" doesn't fly, because gods aren't limited to just Heaven in Touhou, and we know next to nothing about Amitabha. This would just be 3-A either way.
Doesn't mean she can control all of it, given that she has only shown the ability to manipulate a few dreams at once. Also this would be 3-A at best, again. None of this helps to prove that Tier 1 Touhou isn't an outlier.
Because PC-98 contradicts Windows a lot. And since Windows takes priority over PC-98 and that Windows often retcons PC-98 stuff, we can't take at face value anything in PC-98, knowing that it's bound to be retconned eventually. I also have no idea where you got the idea that PC-98 caused the creation of the Spell Card Rules. It was the Vampire Incident that caused that. And we've seen like, one vampire in all of PC-98.
Overall this is just a bunch of arguments that have been debunked countless times.
"Manipulating space is the same as manipulating time" nonsense. ZUN stated that manipulating time means you're able to manipulate space, not the opposite. Even then, that'd just be plain wrong. Even if High 3-A was legit, it'd be an outlier, again.
Don't you use "multiple parallel stories" as an AP feat, because that's far from being one.
Not at all. The only reason one would think that is due to one out-of-context screencap from a G+ dude. At the very best, this would be 4-D, which wouldn't change anything.
I've debunked this at least 3 times now. "Undermining" reality doesn't mean doing significant damage to the universe as a whole, much like how warping reality doesn't mean warping the entire universe. This whole paragraph is meant to show how Yukari's ability can affect an important part of the world: boundaries. But that doesn't mean she can just nuke the universe.
As a metaphor, someone being able to manipulate nails doesn't make them able to destroy all buildings on Earth at once due to most of them using nails. Thus, Yukari being able to manipulate boundaries does not make her able to destroy all of reality at once due to most of it being built on boundaries. Akyuu's statement about reducing all of reality into a single object is equivalent to saying that all buildings on Earth would collapse without nails, thus making nails manipulation a powerful ability.
My dude, the verse following String Theory doesn't mean that Gensokyo itself is 11 Dimensional. By its very nature, Gensokyo is a brane, meaning a 4-D parallel world (according to String Theory, mind you). It is NOT a multiverse containing 11 dimensions.
Your jump in logic makes no sense. "People who ascend to godhood go to Heaven = Amitabha lives in Heaven" doesn't fly, because gods aren't limited to just Heaven in Touhou, and we know next to nothing about Amitabha. This would just be 3-A either way.
Doesn't mean she can control all of it, given that she has only shown the ability to manipulate a few dreams at once. Also this would be 3-A at best, again. None of this helps to prove that Tier 1 Touhou isn't an outlier.
Because PC-98 contradicts Windows a lot. And since Windows takes priority over PC-98 and that Windows often retcons PC-98 stuff, we can't take at face value anything in PC-98, knowing that it's bound to be retconned eventually. I also have no idea where you got the idea that PC-98 caused the creation of the Spell Card Rules. It was the Vampire Incident that caused that. And we've seen like, one vampire in all of PC-98.
Overall this is just a bunch of arguments that have been debunked countless times.
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Referencing doesn't make everything in it canon. Like I said, at best it's a weird secondary canon that spawned the current setting, but it keeps getting retconned and changed as the Windows series progress. Clearly, PC-98 only affects Windows canon when ZUN wants to. Which means we certainly can't go around and claim that Reimu would still be 4-A in canon due to a fight that was nowhere near implied to have happened in canon.
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"Clearly" is exaggerating what is pretty much vague throwbacks like "Hey I met you before". And again, PC-98 is getting retconned away over time. We already have blatant contradictions like nearly everything about Makai, Alice's origins, Marisa's origins, Yumemi, etc. So we can't take everything that happened back then as canon.
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That is because goku was actually shown to be limited to solar system levels of power through feats, weaknesses even scaling. Lunarians and gods have not shown to be limited to any finite level. If a character shows a feat and others scale to them then they are at that level unless they themselves have shown to be hurt by lesser things.
https://orig00.deviantart.net/0686/...17_09_14_18_24_14_739_by_jrlwhite-dbnlt9r.jpg It says visa verca at the end. It is stated that you cannot separate these two things. And no, nothing to suggest it being an outlier.
Pretty sure it said histories. And yes parrallel histories no matter what way you slice it is at least a parallel timeline
Well i do hear a lot about non euclidean being unbound by conventional geometry which is kind of the definition, but then again the intent is usually not outerversal so i do somewhat agree with you here.
I think you are unintentionally nitpicking each sentence as if they were stated on their own. It is literally stated that everything it build apon boundaries. And that everything that exists would be in one point if it wasnt for that. Reality means everything that exists. Warping reality is not warping the universe unless it is done on a universal scale. Boundaries exist on a universal/multiversal scale as they make up everything that exists.
Yeah, nails are an extremely small part of the actual structure of buildings whilst boundaries separate reality as a whole. And it is still further stated that "everything" would exist as one. Are you saying akkus statement is wrong? Because it is basically authors intent and follows the law of how boundaries work.
There is a difference between warping a portion of reality (standard reality warping) and warping reality as a whole.
Even though gensokyo practially has its reality and dimensions separated from the real world. And has its own parralel worlds proven by sakuyas spellcard so for gensokyo to only be one timeline separated from the real world would be contradicted. And brane can range from 4 to infinite dimensions so it doesnt exactly disprove anything here.
Um no. Paradise is where gods ascend to. However they all start off in heaven. Which is confirmed in wahh. I didnt say that they are limited to heaven. They would have just previously existed there
Is it stated she can only manipulate a few dreams at once or control a portion of the dream world? She outright controls it. No offence but this is honestly sounding like excuses at this point. It wouldnt be 3A as reality itself is 11 dimensional. And it controls other realms with infinite size and the real world which by what you said with your brane argument would make it a multi universal feat at worst. So multiple tier 2-tier 1 feats doesnt disprove it being an outlier? despite nothing directly suggesting it as an outlier? I feel like this is burden of proof
Just because a few things are retconnted that does not make it non cannon. Pre retcon beyonder is cannon. But his feats were changed to things like "creating illusions" etc. Even dbz had many things retconnted like (ugh) potara earings and z is still cannon. Being refferenced several times does make it cannon. And what has been contradicted about makai? Is it makai burning down? Because the only evidence of that is the screen going red lol.
https://orig00.deviantart.net/0686/...17_09_14_18_24_14_739_by_jrlwhite-dbnlt9r.jpg It says visa verca at the end. It is stated that you cannot separate these two things. And no, nothing to suggest it being an outlier.
Pretty sure it said histories. And yes parrallel histories no matter what way you slice it is at least a parallel timeline
Well i do hear a lot about non euclidean being unbound by conventional geometry which is kind of the definition, but then again the intent is usually not outerversal so i do somewhat agree with you here.
I think you are unintentionally nitpicking each sentence as if they were stated on their own. It is literally stated that everything it build apon boundaries. And that everything that exists would be in one point if it wasnt for that. Reality means everything that exists. Warping reality is not warping the universe unless it is done on a universal scale. Boundaries exist on a universal/multiversal scale as they make up everything that exists.
Yeah, nails are an extremely small part of the actual structure of buildings whilst boundaries separate reality as a whole. And it is still further stated that "everything" would exist as one. Are you saying akkus statement is wrong? Because it is basically authors intent and follows the law of how boundaries work.
There is a difference between warping a portion of reality (standard reality warping) and warping reality as a whole.
Even though gensokyo practially has its reality and dimensions separated from the real world. And has its own parralel worlds proven by sakuyas spellcard so for gensokyo to only be one timeline separated from the real world would be contradicted. And brane can range from 4 to infinite dimensions so it doesnt exactly disprove anything here.
Um no. Paradise is where gods ascend to. However they all start off in heaven. Which is confirmed in wahh. I didnt say that they are limited to heaven. They would have just previously existed there
Is it stated she can only manipulate a few dreams at once or control a portion of the dream world? She outright controls it. No offence but this is honestly sounding like excuses at this point. It wouldnt be 3A as reality itself is 11 dimensional. And it controls other realms with infinite size and the real world which by what you said with your brane argument would make it a multi universal feat at worst. So multiple tier 2-tier 1 feats doesnt disprove it being an outlier? despite nothing directly suggesting it as an outlier? I feel like this is burden of proof
Just because a few things are retconnted that does not make it non cannon. Pre retcon beyonder is cannon. But his feats were changed to things like "creating illusions" etc. Even dbz had many things retconnted like (ugh) potara earings and z is still cannon. Being refferenced several times does make it cannon. And what has been contradicted about makai? Is it makai burning down? Because the only evidence of that is the screen going red lol.
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@Omni The fact that because you didn't mention "1-A Touhou" I'll let it slide but still disagreeing with it regardless due to the lack of reasonings you mentioned in your top post.
Just a reminder: Retcons =/= Non-Canon.
@Read this post [copy & paste link here on the left bracket + press space + type what is mentioned in your link on the right bracket], it helps make your responses/posts shorter.
@Wish Regardless of what I say, I'm still neutral on this topic but I have to say that mentioning "pretty much everyone in the Windows era holds back due to the Spell Card Rules so there's that" is technically considered to be a fallacious statement if you're using this to defend the OP's claims.
Just a reminder: Retcons =/= Non-Canon.
@Read this post [copy & paste link here on the left bracket + press space + type what is mentioned in your link on the right bracket], it helps make your responses/posts shorter.
@Wish Regardless of what I say, I'm still neutral on this topic but I have to say that mentioning "pretty much everyone in the Windows era holds back due to the Spell Card Rules so there's that" is technically considered to be a fallacious statement if you're using this to defend the OP's claims.
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Oh wow, thanks. I was wondering why the add link option wouldnt direct me to other sites lol.
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Goku at the end of the Buu saga was far above any 4-B feat. Yet this would still be an outlier. Also do you want me to showcase every time a character's power has been implied to be lower than High 4-C, let alone 3-A or higher? Suika destroying the moon being considered impressive, Okuu's manipulation of solar energy being considered scary even to lunarians, the dragon destroying Gensokyo being impressive, lightning bolts hurting fairies, etc. Any of those characters being multiversal reality warpers is utterly contradicted at any chances possible.
Not at all. Especially since Kaguya's powers creating entire timelines makes no sense, when she has already shown the ability to affect history in lesser means (such as preventing Eientei from having a history).
This is not nitpicking. This is taking time to actually read and understand the quotes we're given and not just rolling with the interpretation that's going to place the characters at their highest.
Boundaries separate aspects of reality, not all of reality at once. Like the sky and the sea, or life and death. All of them together do hold reality together, but no single boundary has shown to be able to affect reality as a whole on its own. This just goes back to my metaphor. No nails hold the entire world together.
And, surprise, Yukari has never shown the ability to warp reality as a whole.
Gensokyo doesn't have parallel worlds or dimensions. Stuff like the Netherrealm or Hell are just other Otherworlds. They aren't "part" of Gensokyo. Also a brane is only anything higher than 4-D when it encompasses multiple universes. Which it doesn't.
Proofs? Nothing in WaHH hints that all gods "started" in Heaven. And that's also just blatantly untrue, given that gods in general existed before Heaven did.
Was she stated to be able to control all dreams at once? The answer is no. Ruling over something =/= controlling it. And no, the burden of proof is definitively on you. You need to prove that Doremy is 3-A based on this 4-A at best feat. You need to prove that it's 11-D. You have a lot to prove.
It's more than "a few things". PC-98 canon is gleefully ignored and only occasionally taken as canon. Windows just takes whatever it likes from PC-98 and ignores the rest. Ergo we can't use random PC-98 content to upgrade Windows. Stuff like how Makai can literally be entered from a cavern behind the shrine and left at will in PC-98, while it requires some long-sealed ship in order to enter it, and Byakuren was trapped in it for centuries.
Not at all. Especially since Kaguya's powers creating entire timelines makes no sense, when she has already shown the ability to affect history in lesser means (such as preventing Eientei from having a history).
This is not nitpicking. This is taking time to actually read and understand the quotes we're given and not just rolling with the interpretation that's going to place the characters at their highest.
Boundaries separate aspects of reality, not all of reality at once. Like the sky and the sea, or life and death. All of them together do hold reality together, but no single boundary has shown to be able to affect reality as a whole on its own. This just goes back to my metaphor. No nails hold the entire world together.
And, surprise, Yukari has never shown the ability to warp reality as a whole.
Gensokyo doesn't have parallel worlds or dimensions. Stuff like the Netherrealm or Hell are just other Otherworlds. They aren't "part" of Gensokyo. Also a brane is only anything higher than 4-D when it encompasses multiple universes. Which it doesn't.
Proofs? Nothing in WaHH hints that all gods "started" in Heaven. And that's also just blatantly untrue, given that gods in general existed before Heaven did.
Was she stated to be able to control all dreams at once? The answer is no. Ruling over something =/= controlling it. And no, the burden of proof is definitively on you. You need to prove that Doremy is 3-A based on this 4-A at best feat. You need to prove that it's 11-D. You have a lot to prove.
It's more than "a few things". PC-98 canon is gleefully ignored and only occasionally taken as canon. Windows just takes whatever it likes from PC-98 and ignores the rest. Ergo we can't use random PC-98 content to upgrade Windows. Stuff like how Makai can literally be entered from a cavern behind the shrine and left at will in PC-98, while it requires some long-sealed ship in order to enter it, and Byakuren was trapped in it for centuries.
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Goku in the buu saga didnt show any feat above 4B. Through scaling it would make no sense for him to scale him to multi solar system. The moon in touhou is far different from a normal moon considering the fact that suika destroying the heavens was easier than destroying the moon and she was required to shatter the heavens in order to do so. This isnt an ordinary moon busting feat. If a child gets a really good score on a test and impresses the teacher, does that make the kid smarter than the teacher? no. Is there anything to show where they are scared of this for context? And im pretty sure them being scared of solar energy is the only outlier here considering you have them at multi solar system level. And since when does fear correlate to power? And there fact that the watatsuki sisters are untouchable so they are unlikely to be affected by solar energy. Fairies are not multiversal tho lol. Even island level is generous for them.
So affecting time on a lesser scale means you are never going to be able to affect it on a higher one? Do you know how many characters you could downgrade with this logic? Just because she does one feat that does not mean that she cant do more. Especially when it is outright stated she can do that.
Also you kinda dropped the discussion about hermits being able to create infinitely expanding realms.
Its the other way around. The quote clearly states that everything that exists is made of boundaries and everything in existence would exist as one without them. There is no other way to slice it without taking it out of context. I also forgot to mention that boundaries marked the beginning of creation. also it says here she can manipulate all existence but i am not completely sure how well translated that is
I know. But yukari can manipulate all boundaries. The profile even says that. This says it as well. And there is the fact that she naturally exists on the border between gensokyo and the outer world which is easily 11D. 5d with a lowball.
Yukari doesnt warp reality as a whole because it would kill everybody. In fact im pretty sure even zun stated that if some of these characters used their full power then there would be no more game.
Gensokyo doesnt have multiple timelines? But sakuya is able to summon herself from seperate timelines. These timelines are always linked with gensokyo when she summons herself from gensokyo. None of them are linked with the real world. It is pretty obvious that gensokyo has multiple timelines to it lol.
Here
Ugh, i could downgrade so many characters with that logic. Time baby could be downgraded to below low 2C because he only rules over the space time continuum. Doremy sweet controlling a realm which basically controlls every aspect of reality is a higher dimensional feat. Her being able to warp reality using the dream realm proves she is controlling it and not just ruling over it. The dream realm would logically be an 11D structure and ruling over it and controlling it almost like it was a physical thing would make you 11D. No. Saying that "it is an outlier unless proven not to be one" is literally burden of proof. You are asking me to disprove something never proven in the first place. And whilst im on the topic, answer me this, is it possible for A Square to rule over an infinite 3 dimensional universe?
Perhaps the cavern could have been removed. And byakuren being trapped for centuries isnt a contradiction. Makai is a different timeline/space time continuum. Meaning time would flow differently in that realm. Time is infinite. Meaning that when makai is created, it could have had its history already present. There are many ways that can be possible without pc being retconnted. Retconnting something doesnt make it as a whole non cannon. Especially when characters remember most of the events that took place.
did i forget to mention that gods are practically formeless, existed before all things and can exist practically anywhere?. Seriously, what is your excuse for this?
Edit: Since you are accusing me of taking things in face value i guess i should explain everything to you.
"Manipulating boundaries is a terrifying way ability capable of fundamentally undermining reality. As far as we know, everything is built apon the existence of boundaries." Everything is built apon boundaries. Not just a part of reality but the whole thing.
"If there were no water surface, there could be no lake. If there were no sky line, neither mountain nor sky could exist. Were it not for the great barrier, even gensokyo itself wouldnt exist." In other words, nothing can exist without boundaries. Even gensokyo and the real world which has even their timelines separated are separated by boundaries and yukari can manipulate that. Proving that boundaries also work on higher dimensions, giving yukari higher dimensional hacks at bear minimum.
"If there were no boundaries, everything would probably exist as one enourmous object" Pretty obvious. Without anything to separate everything all of reality would exist as one.
"So basically, red and white symbolize the distinction between existence and nothingness. That's why the red-white boundary means "joyous". By using red and white mutually, this border is emphasized, and the borderline represents the beginning of all things." In other words red and white represent the boundary between existence and nothingness/the beginning of all things. Not only would this imply that boundaries form everything that exists but it also means that yukari could logically manipulate it which again is at least a multi dimensional feat
So affecting time on a lesser scale means you are never going to be able to affect it on a higher one? Do you know how many characters you could downgrade with this logic? Just because she does one feat that does not mean that she cant do more. Especially when it is outright stated she can do that.
Also you kinda dropped the discussion about hermits being able to create infinitely expanding realms.
Its the other way around. The quote clearly states that everything that exists is made of boundaries and everything in existence would exist as one without them. There is no other way to slice it without taking it out of context. I also forgot to mention that boundaries marked the beginning of creation. also it says here she can manipulate all existence but i am not completely sure how well translated that is
I know. But yukari can manipulate all boundaries. The profile even says that. This says it as well. And there is the fact that she naturally exists on the border between gensokyo and the outer world which is easily 11D. 5d with a lowball.
Yukari doesnt warp reality as a whole because it would kill everybody. In fact im pretty sure even zun stated that if some of these characters used their full power then there would be no more game.
Gensokyo doesnt have multiple timelines? But sakuya is able to summon herself from seperate timelines. These timelines are always linked with gensokyo when she summons herself from gensokyo. None of them are linked with the real world. It is pretty obvious that gensokyo has multiple timelines to it lol.
Here
Ugh, i could downgrade so many characters with that logic. Time baby could be downgraded to below low 2C because he only rules over the space time continuum. Doremy sweet controlling a realm which basically controlls every aspect of reality is a higher dimensional feat. Her being able to warp reality using the dream realm proves she is controlling it and not just ruling over it. The dream realm would logically be an 11D structure and ruling over it and controlling it almost like it was a physical thing would make you 11D. No. Saying that "it is an outlier unless proven not to be one" is literally burden of proof. You are asking me to disprove something never proven in the first place. And whilst im on the topic, answer me this, is it possible for A Square to rule over an infinite 3 dimensional universe?
Perhaps the cavern could have been removed. And byakuren being trapped for centuries isnt a contradiction. Makai is a different timeline/space time continuum. Meaning time would flow differently in that realm. Time is infinite. Meaning that when makai is created, it could have had its history already present. There are many ways that can be possible without pc being retconnted. Retconnting something doesnt make it as a whole non cannon. Especially when characters remember most of the events that took place.
did i forget to mention that gods are practically formeless, existed before all things and can exist practically anywhere?. Seriously, what is your excuse for this?
Edit: Since you are accusing me of taking things in face value i guess i should explain everything to you.
"Manipulating boundaries is a terrifying way ability capable of fundamentally undermining reality. As far as we know, everything is built apon the existence of boundaries." Everything is built apon boundaries. Not just a part of reality but the whole thing.
"If there were no water surface, there could be no lake. If there were no sky line, neither mountain nor sky could exist. Were it not for the great barrier, even gensokyo itself wouldnt exist." In other words, nothing can exist without boundaries. Even gensokyo and the real world which has even their timelines separated are separated by boundaries and yukari can manipulate that. Proving that boundaries also work on higher dimensions, giving yukari higher dimensional hacks at bear minimum.
"If there were no boundaries, everything would probably exist as one enourmous object" Pretty obvious. Without anything to separate everything all of reality would exist as one.
"So basically, red and white symbolize the distinction between existence and nothingness. That's why the red-white boundary means "joyous". By using red and white mutually, this border is emphasized, and the borderline represents the beginning of all things." In other words red and white represent the boundary between existence and nothingness/the beginning of all things. Not only would this imply that boundaries form everything that exists but it also means that yukari could logically manipulate it which again is at least a multi dimensional feat
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Interesting but i think i've understand what saik want to say:
if she claim that she can manipulate all boundary, it isn't simultanously but "one by one" it's the same as a guy who can manipulate all matter in the Universe with his atomic manipulation, indeed he can manipulate all thing but not instantansouly, "Overtime"
It's this?
if she claim that she can manipulate all boundary, it isn't simultanously but "one by one" it's the same as a guy who can manipulate all matter in the Universe with his atomic manipulation, indeed he can manipulate all thing but not instantansouly, "Overtime"
It's this?
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I can see what you are trying to say. However the statement that says she could undermine reality (said paragraph is talking about reality as a whole) heavily implies that she can do this extremely quickly. Especially when she can manipulate boundaries like the red and white examples i have shown. So even if she does manipulate them individually she would only at worst need to manipulate a few to at least completely break reality. And you still have the case of beings not even being unaffected by this power like the watatsuki sisters which would mean they are unaffected by reality breaking attacks. And there is the statement that she can destroy the fabric of gensokyo, seemingly with nothing stopping her either.
Also im pretty sure that someone who can manipulate matter on a universal scale would be universal with hacks. Unless they actually were shown to take time to control the matter in the universe in which case the statement would more likely say something like "given enough time, he can manipulate all of the matter in the universe"
Also im pretty sure that someone who can manipulate matter on a universal scale would be universal with hacks. Unless they actually were shown to take time to control the matter in the universe in which case the statement would more likely say something like "given enough time, he can manipulate all of the matter in the universe"
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It wasn't implied to be quick at all. In fact, nothing was implied about Yukari doing anything on her own. Not even "she could reduce all of reality to nothing" or something, just "Boundaries hold the world together, and she can manipulate that". Also "she would only at worst need to manipulate a few to at least completely break reality" is complete speculation right now.
Gensokyo is extremely small, so this isn't relevant.
There is a difference between range and potency. I can manipulate matter all over the universe, without being able to do so all at once. Same with Yukari.
btw if you want a genuine Touhou upgrade, get over here.
Gensokyo is extremely small, so this isn't relevant.
There is a difference between range and potency. I can manipulate matter all over the universe, without being able to do so all at once. Same with Yukari.
btw if you want a genuine Touhou upgrade, get over here.
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Dude, I just gave reasoning to why it would be quick. I told you the boundaries she can manipulate such as red and white which would basically destroy everything. It isnt speculation. She is stated to be able to destroy the fabric of gensokyo. Not the island. Even some of the low tiers could destroy the island of gensokyo, so it would make zero sense for them to be talking about the island as if it was impressive. Fabric is a keyword here.
If you were manipulating all matter in the universe but not at once, you would only be manipulating multiple galaxies which would just be going against the statement. Plus the universe is made of beyond decillions of atoms which you would need to manipulate. It only takes a few boundaries to mess up gensokyo especially when she can completely annihalate it (probably with her own power as well). She can even manipulate boundaries quickly in spellcard battles and doesnt even struggle at all.
Its like me saying that bill cipher could only destroy reality over a long period of time. You cant just say "this person cannot use their powers efficiently" when there is nothing to suggest they cannot and especially when it implied that they can. If the author intended for them to be terrible at using their powers then there would be something to suggest it. Otherwise you would practically be using headcannon.
So gensokyo which is a 5d (bear minimum) to 11D structure is considered small? yeah i dont think so.
Yukari uses boundary manipulation on a 5D-11D range. She can also destroy this due to the things she manipulates.
A genuine upgrade? Im not a fanboy who wants to just get the verse as high as possible. I am simply telling you how things are and where they should logically be. It is your choice whether you want to acknowledge new information or not. Or even respond to all of the other points that i just made.
If you were manipulating all matter in the universe but not at once, you would only be manipulating multiple galaxies which would just be going against the statement. Plus the universe is made of beyond decillions of atoms which you would need to manipulate. It only takes a few boundaries to mess up gensokyo especially when she can completely annihalate it (probably with her own power as well). She can even manipulate boundaries quickly in spellcard battles and doesnt even struggle at all.
Its like me saying that bill cipher could only destroy reality over a long period of time. You cant just say "this person cannot use their powers efficiently" when there is nothing to suggest they cannot and especially when it implied that they can. If the author intended for them to be terrible at using their powers then there would be something to suggest it. Otherwise you would practically be using headcannon.
So gensokyo which is a 5d (bear minimum) to 11D structure is considered small? yeah i dont think so.
Yukari uses boundary manipulation on a 5D-11D range. She can also destroy this due to the things she manipulates.
A genuine upgrade? Im not a fanboy who wants to just get the verse as high as possible. I am simply telling you how things are and where they should logically be. It is your choice whether you want to acknowledge new information or not. Or even respond to all of the other points that i just made.
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I disagree with any sort of upgrade once more.
All of this is implying everything in Touhou is taken at face value alongside many other assumptions. I'm not gonna get into any lengthy discussion but I don't think anyone else would be really supportive of this upgrade considering it'll break any other measuring we do for other verses.
All of this is implying everything in Touhou is taken at face value alongside many other assumptions. I'm not gonna get into any lengthy discussion but I don't think anyone else would be really supportive of this upgrade considering it'll break any other measuring we do for other verses.
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Everything i said was taken in context. I even explained the context of most of the quotes and what they imply/outright stated. It wasnt face value at all. And how would it break measuring for other verses? If anything other verses are measured in a certain way and given the benefit of the doubt whilst touhou isnt. I even pointed that out to by comparing the fact that i could downgrade almost every verse with the arguments used against touhou. And im pretty sure many people would be fine with the upgrade as long as the articles are well made.
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IDK if you have understand what i said but it seem my exemple isn't the best in this situation:
- If for exemple, a characters said "I can Manipulate all heavenly body in the Reality" indeed he can potentially manipulate all heavenly body in the reality but not all heavenly body simultanoutly, one by one so finally his statemate is good but not interpreting this in another way in the yukari case IDK, i only played at PC 98 games
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Is this what you mean? If all reality is composed of boundaries and she can manipulate and remove any boundary, if you connect the dots then that statement is basically true to yukari lol.
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Thanks for the scan:
in the Yukari case, it's like "Removed all Pilars of a things for collapse it" via a conceptual manipulation. so IDK
where is the scan for "Yukari Yakumo has the power to undermine all of reality with her powers." it's pretty important
in the Yukari case, it's like "Removed all Pilars of a things for collapse it" via a conceptual manipulation. so IDK
where is the scan for "Yukari Yakumo has the power to undermine all of reality with her powers." it's pretty important
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Thanks buddy
Yeah in this case if reality = all reality, it's like destroying the reality by removed "the very concepts (boundaries) of it" basically "mess the reality in destroying is fundations"
Well, it's seem unquantifiable because it's basically hax and it's comparable to a guy who can collapse a bridge in erasing two pillar
Concerning the Dimensional part (5-D, 11D ect..) I know almost nothing about it, so I will not discuss this point lol
Yeah in this case if reality = all reality, it's like destroying the reality by removed "the very concepts (boundaries) of it" basically "mess the reality in destroying is fundations"
Well, it's seem unquantifiable because it's basically hax and it's comparable to a guy who can collapse a bridge in erasing two pillar
Concerning the Dimensional part (5-D, 11D ect..) I know almost nothing about it, so I will not discuss this point lol
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I thought someone with a profile like that would be an expert lol. On its own i do agree it would be hacks. However she is seemingly unbound by structures like gensokyo which even hermits are bound by (who are at least universal plus from what i said earlier). And you have characters who are unaffected by that making it questionable.
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Nah i only play at all PC games now i'm on Perfect cherry blossom (the game wher yukari come, I look forward lol)
I see, well I do not know what to think about it so I leave this to the experts hehe
I see, well I do not know what to think about it so I leave this to the experts hehe
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Tbf most of the lore is actually in other things like the books, guides and even wikis. Especially when it comes to scaling. A lot of the games are mostly story.
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I see, I would inquire after playing the games
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