Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Theuser789]

I mean, you have no answers to it in your own words, and your argument proving it wrong is wanting unreasonable evidence, so...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I still don't understand why we're using Gameplay mechanics to determine a feat. There's a reason why the Gameplay mechanics page exists, or that you believe things like Mario being killed by 9-B Goombas, 7-A pokemon can one-shot 2-B Pokemon (such Dialga and Palkia in the Diamond & Pearl gameplay), or Super Sonic can be killed by falling off screen.

I mean, if you believe we should only look at feats from gameplay and ignore everything else, then why stop with Sonic? Let's downgrade Mario to Goomba level because they can kill him and Arceus to 8-C since a level 100 pichu can kill level 1 Arceus

 

[Duedate8898]

And once again, just because we don't know the actual answer that doesn't mean we should default to one that we know is wrong. I outlined above why Immeasurable doesn't work to solve the logistical problems of this fight and then asked for evidence to prove immeasurable. The solutions to these logistical problems still don't work and no evidence has been given.

I'm not saying to take gameplay over everything else. I'm saying nothing corroborates with immeasurable. Neither statements nor gameplay, so it has no foundation.

 

[JJSliderman]

Temporal AOE solves how they can hit Solaris but it doesn't really solve how they can dodge his attacks which
I believe were conceded as temporally omnipresent as well, and done casually, which seems to satisfy the Note on Immeasurable speed.

 

[Theuser789]

I outlined above why Immeasurable doesn't work to solve the logistical problems of this fight and then asked for evidence to prove immeasurable.

Immesurable doesn't work because the past self would be hit, people countered that past attacks can be dodged by immesurables, you then argued that this isn't visually show, then I said no video game media visually shows this, so asking for evidence is unreasonable because this type of evidence doesn't exist, it's improvable, therefore immesurable can work because your counter is simply false, you are scaming us by repeating yourself, your logic has been dismantled, those two staments have no more backing, you cannot hide in those false truths anymore

 

[Duedate8898]

Immesurable doesn't work because the past self would be hit, people countered that past attacks can be dodged by immesurables, you then argued that this isn't visually show, then I said no video game media visually shows this, so asking for evidence is unreasonable because this type of evidence doesn't exist, it's improvable, therefore immesurable can work because your counter is simply false, you are scaming us by repeating yourself, your logic has been dismantled, those two staments have no more backing, you cannot hide in those false truths anymore

I've said my piece at this point and you're allowed to believe whatever you want.
And since we've gone back to where we started I will now say that I'm done here.

I do not support immeasurable speed for anyone involved.

I believe there is distinct lack of solid evidence and that what is being proposed lacks any direct evidence as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Shake has asked both sides to be more concise, and I don't have energy to keep posting entire essays. And I agree it should have been closed before we reached 6 pages let alone 9; 10 pages now.

But anyway, DueDate has pretty much asked Pepto to at least bring up something new. I agree staff members and former staff members should try to be more open-minded and elaborate with the disagreements. Which I too have been struggling, but I personally think DueDate and to some extent AKM Sama have done a good job in that regard. And I'm going to respond to one of Pepto's concerns, he claimed I was "trying to make Immeasurable speed a lot more complicated than it should be." And while I might agree that I am making it more complicated then it should be, I'm not intentionally doing that. The truth is, Immeasurable is supposed to be complicated; much like dimensional tiering, Causality, Dimensional Travel, Omnipresence, and especially Conceptual stuff and 1-A; all of those simply are complicated things to tackle. Even Infinite speed is complicated already, with Immeasurable intended to be something more complex from there.

But anyway, for the time being, it is against the rules to just assume "Immeasurable speed" because that "solves all our problems" or "Makes the most sense" despite the rules outright stating that striking an omnipresent character isn't Immeasurable attack speed. Pretty much every Tier 2 destructive capacity character would have Immeasurable attack speed by that logic. But I think we already agreed to give Temporal AoE either way. But I at least see better concerns when it comes to dodging it. But that's also addressed. Also, we corrected Antoniofer on him assuming he only exists in three time periods; but Pepto did somewhat poison the well a little bit when he said "He lost credibility." Nothing too bad, so I can forgive him for that. But even after we corrected him, he still said it's not Immeasurable speed for other reasons he laid out. The only way to honestly defend Immeasurable speed is if a new thread to tackle non omnipresent beings fighting foes with temporal omnipresent beings being Immeasurable. Which could be made yes.

But anyway, I still think DueDate covered most of the points I was going to say otherwise. I already permanently retracted Type 2 Acausality, but it still keeps being brought up, but other assumptions are just repeats of people assuming meteors are omnipresent across time and space and not just time. Or repeating why it takes Immeasurable speed to react, when doing so doesn't quite. But anyway, DueDate appears done. But Solaris blocking temporal AoE attacks with his arms, or Sonic dodging temporal AoE appear to be some of the main pro side points. But that appears to just be similar to a lot of JRPG verse end game bosses.

But I too pretty much just want to wrap this up, and I'm sure even those against the downgrade do too. Given it's 10 pages long, something has to be done at this point. But like DueDate said, I still don't quite see Immeasurable speed being legit at least based on the official rules.

 

[Theuser789]

Your solid evidence is impossible to be found, since you yourself can't find anything that fits your tight standards, so I do not have to show evidence if it doesn't exist, thus your disagreement has no standing and would be dismissed anywhere else as a concession honestly, this is just the truth mate, not even trying to insult you, sure you can believe whatever you want, but your points simply do not hold up, sorry. But you did gave a reasoning and that's all that I asked, we are just wasting time at this point

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I still don't understand why we're using Gameplay mechanics to determine a feat. There's a reason why the Gameplay mechanics page exists, or that you believe things like Mario being killed by 9-B Goombas, 7-A pokemon can one-shot 2-B Pokemon (such Dialga and Palkia in the Diamond & Pearl gameplay), or Super Sonic can be killed by falling off screen.

I mean, if you believe we should only look at feats from gameplay and ignore everything else, then why stop with Sonic? Let's downgrade Mario to Goomba level because they can kill him and Arceus to 8-C since a level 100 pichu can kill level 1 Arceus

Kazuma Kiryu in Yakuza 0 should have physics manipulation for punching a guy and borderline causing him to ascend to Heaven lol

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic in 06 as well, have you seen those glitches?!

 

[JJSliderman]

This is 10 pages long, prolly not the time for jokes.

Either way, it makes sense to me that you would need to be Immeasurable to dodge attacks that are Immeasurable in nature according to the existing standards.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Then what other evidence is there for immeasurable speed besides believing (wrongly I think) that it's the only way for them to combat Solaris?

It IS the only way for them to combat Solaris aside from some specific combinations of abillities. Each of these combinations are less likely than immeasurable speed, so by process of elimination, immeasurable speed has to be what they used. Just because they don't shove down our throats that they used immeasurable and dodged past attacks doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did ANYONE here read my last post?

"Pretty much every Tier 2 destructive capacity character would have Immeasurable attack speed by that logic."
Not every tier 2 character can blitz a time-omni, and I've explained multiple times how no finite speed value should be able to do that using comparisons that make logical sense and haven't been properly argued against. Again, please read my last post.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I hope I don't come off too aggressive, but I genuinely feel like anti-immeasurables either don't look at the bigger picture or willingly chose to ignore my arguments. I'm pretty sure I never ignored any of yours. Why do you think my posts have so much text? I go over everything, and anylize every alternative, and I still think immeasurable is the most reasonable explanation by far

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I was hesitant to post this since it just seems to be a jerk thing to do, but it feels necessary. Despite the fact that the pro-immeasurable side has many members on it, we're still fighting an uphill battle due to not having any staff members to contest against the ones on the anti-immeasurable side. After so many re-iterations, arguments, and debunks to the possible alternatives to immeasurable speed, I feel like the only way to reason with the anti-immeasurable side and have them stop moving the goal post is to use thier own words against them. That way, they might finally realize that they've had pro-immeasurable arguments in the back of thier mind all along, and they won't get to ignore them anymore. With that, I present to you:

EXPOSING THE HYPOCRISY OF THE STAFF MEMBERS AGAINST IMMEASURABLE

@ShakeResounding seems to be the only other member who noticed inconsistancies on the anti-immeasurable side, so if you're reading this Shake, I'd like to know what you think about this, especially since you're the only active staff member to my knowledge who is neutral rather than directly against immeasurable.

Throughout most of this thread, the staff members involved were suspiciously unspecific about why they disagreed with immeasurable. Simply saying that it didn't comform to thier standards, or that large size has nothing to do with speed, both of which would be good arguments... if Sonic 06 was a graphic novel rather than a 3D platforming video game and if Solaris was omnipresent throughout space rather than time. When they did finally get specific, we got these statements:

But just saying that if the reason has to do with all three hedgehogs occupying the entirety of the past, present, and future, then there wouldn’t need to have been 3. If Sonic alone was immeasurable, he would be able to be in the past, present, and future all at the same time. He wouldn’t need Silver to take care of the future and Shadow to take care of the past.

Here, Cal is admitting that immeasurable speed would would allow each of the hedgehogs to project themselves at every point in time at once and match Solaris' temporal omnipresence. He says that if Super Sonic by himself had immeasurable speed, then he wouldn't need help from Shadow and Silver to match Solaris' speed and hit him in every point in time. This means that all we need to do to bring him on the pro-immeasurable side would be to debunk the idea that Sonic needed Shadow and Silver's help to deal with Solaris' physiology and the speed that comes from such a feat, which we already did:

Yeah so I was just wondering if it was because he wasn't fast enough, or he wasn't strong enough.

But the speed thing is only notable if Solaris existed only at three points in time, which was seemingly debunked.

So it must have been a power thing.

It was a lack of power. Solaris can destroy the entire Sonic cosmolgy pretty casually, so Sonic shared his Super form with his allies bestowing them his power and turning the fight into a 3v1. This is supported by every statement in the guides, and the game supports them. Super Sonic still downscales from Solaris though.
One statement says Sonic is the only one with the power to defeat Solaris.
Another says that even he can't beat Solaris by himself, so this is the most logical conclusion. Other games support it as well.

Super Sonic only needed his two allies to deal with Solaris' raw power. It had nothing to do with overcoming his physiology, as each hedgehog has shown to be able to match it individually, lowing Solaris' health and visibly damaging his exoskeleton with each of thier own individual hits. The Super hedgehogs downscale from Solaris in the same way thier base forms would downscale from the combined might of Mephiles and Iblis, which means they're weaker but still comparable in power, and at least comparable in speed. Now let's go into how Duedate contradicts Cal's anti-immeasurable argument with his own.

And immeasurable speed in of itself does not allow you to control the position of your past self, merely update your present to avoid things that incur upon them. And we never see any of them, while playing from their perspective, noticing themselves taking damage from the past and then avoiding it so they take no damage at all. So we have nothing but them dodging the attacks with no damage to support immeasurable, but that doesn't support immeasurable speed as I've illustrated above in this post. Instead, it would support one of two other things:

1. Temporal Omnipresence: With temporal omnipresence, the hedgehogs would be capable of moving their past, present, and future selves simultaneously to avoid these attacks. However, they can't have this because of two key reasons: The hedgehogs wouldn't be able to inhabit the same space as they're shown in the game and they would be able to see each other while battling.

2. Acauaslity Type 2: Without having a future or past, the only point in time they would need to avoid an attack would be in the present. And in that case, the attack from their own perspective would have a finite speed due to the attacks only existing in their presence as far as they were concerned. This doesn't work solely because a later sonic game (Sonic Generations) shows us classic sonic who is said to be Modern Sonics past battling alongside him (both in super form). So either Sonic never had acausality or Sonic Generations retconned it, either way I don't think Sonic would qualify for it as he stands now.

I only included the part about acausality so you don't miss any of the context, but basically, Duedate admits that if the hedgehogs had thier own omnipresence, they would be able to match Solaris the way we see it in-game, except they wouldn't be able to overlap with Solaris' attacks or each other. Like I said in my previous post, this isn't an issue for them if they have immeasurable speed instead, as it can provide the same benefits as temporal omnipresence while also being able to turn it off whenever they want, thus removing any inconsistancy that thier own omnipresence would have brought:

Immeasurable speed does however, allow you to project your present self into the past and move there. If it also allows you to update your present and avoid things from happening in it like you said, then doesn't that also support my point? Since that present would eventually become the past, and the new present would get replaced by what was formerly known as the future, to dodge an attack after already being struck by it is essentially the same thing as moving your past self out of harm's way. It looks like I had a stroke trying to write that sentence, and it must be hard to wrap your head around it from an outsider's perspective, but simply put, I don't see how changing something that happened in your present and something that happened in your past is any different in this case, especially given the context. The past is nothing but a former present, and the future is nothing but a soon-to-be present.

If temporal omnipresence allows them to dodge Solaris' attacks and overlap with them in space, I don't see why it wouldn't allow them to dodge and overlap each other. In additon, Super Shadow and Super Sonic couldn't see each other either during the Finalhazard boss fight. This is either because switching and resting is canon or because the devs didn't want to bother with having the hedgehog(s) you aren't playng as be controlled by an A.I when they would be too far away to see clearly anyway. But all of this is only a problem if we decide to go with the interpretation that the Super forms have thier own omnipresence, however. With immeasruable speed, none if this is an issue, since they can actively turn on and off thier pseudo-omnipresence whenever they want.

Since Cal and I agree about how immeasurable speed can replicate omnipresence and keep up with Solaris, I feel like there needs to be a discussion between the people on the anti-immeasurable side. Right now, at least two of them agree with removing it for completely contradictary reasons, and it looks like at least one of them sub-consciously knows deep down that immeasurable speed is the only thing left that allows the Solaris fight to make any sense.

What Cal and Duedate have in common is that they both say Super Sonic can't be immeasurable because he lacks a certain X-factor. Now that we've proven that he actually does have this X-factor, that only leaves them with the argument that it doesn't fit thier standards, but not only are these standrads unrealistic, but Super Sonic would STILL meet them by process of elimination.

People also conviniently forget to wonder how Super Shadow and Silver flew to different time periods right before the fight. The official speed page says that feats like these must be anylized on a case-by-case basis, stating that they're sometimes done with FTL travel or flying around the Earth faster than it rotates. Neither of those examples aply here, since FTL feats are very common in Sonic games, and not once to they result in time travel without the aid of warp panels which specifically serve that perpouse. Given all of the other evidence it already has going for it, immeasurable is the only rank that can make sense of this feat. Is the anti-immeasurable side suddenly going to start arguing that Shadow and Silver didn't fly to different time periods at all? Even though that was initially an argument they used against immeasurable? That would be a problem. At least pro-immeasurables are consistant in thier viewpoint, arguments, and logistics

 

[JJSliderman]

Based Petro

 

[Peptocoptr27]

It may look like the point of my large paragraphs are to wear down the opposition and make them concede out of boredom, but the truth is, I'm sick of this conversation too. I just genuinely believe removing immeasurable would hurt the reputation of the site. I write in big paragraphs to make people see the bigger picture. How else are we supposed to stop going in circles? I'll shut up and wait for your responses now. Sorry that it has to be this way...

 

[MysticMania]

DueDate, I'm sorry for asking again, but your main issue is that we never see them get hit and then dodge the same attack, right? But why would we need to see that, or have it implied if it happened in the past? By the time we're already moving Super Sonic to avoid another attack, he's already "unstruck" himself from the past attack via avoiding it with immeasurable, and thus, there's no reason to show it in the first place. And like User has said, there's no reason for 06 to show or imply such a thing to begin with.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

From what I've seen, it seems like there's very tight standards for immeasurable, very difficult to replicate in any way through gameplay. However, staff have made a good point that we can't just slap on immeasurable because the situation is confusing, or because it's hard to determine what's going on speedwise.

Is it harder for games to show through gameplay? Yes.

But we can't just give more wiggle room to a game because it's harder to showcase higher speeds within its gameplay. Staff members even gave an example of a story driven RPG with lore statements that fit the requirement.

If sonic 06 doesn't do that, saying something like, "but why would game devs design gameplay to specifically meet these standards?" is essentially a non-argument. The why doesn't matter, all we know is that they didn't showcase the proper requirements through gameplay, lore, or narrative.

At the risk of sounding rude, I ask that the pro-immeasurable side please stop stone walling with circular arguments. Frankly, it's become clear at this point, even to a regular member like myself, that you guys simply won't accept or try to understand any explanation or argument that staff gives you.

And I know I have no right to say such things nor any power over any of you, because if anything I'm new here, but it just feels like things have gotten out of hand, and that those in favor of immeasurable are lashing out with passive aggression.

Now that I've said my piece, I'll just wrap things up by saying that I agree with the downgrade and adding temporal AoE.

Again, sorry if I seemed rude.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don't think the staff really gave good arguments to explain how characters with finite speed can dodge attacks fast enough to travel through time casually.

But, eh.

 

[MysticMania]

You're okay, I don't feel you were rude at all.

If you don't mind me asking, why does my above point not stand? Why would we need to see it, if it didn't happen in the end?

( I also don't agree with just adding Temporal AoE, personally, as I don't feel it'd be enough for them to actually beat Solaris. )

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Just to add but well I don't see the confusion if solaris is temporal omnipresent then by default he would have attacked at every point in time. But the hedgehogs dodge the strikes despite the attacks have the ability to hit them in the past or future. Well at least thats from what i see

 

[Peptocoptr27]

From what I've seen, it seems like there's very tight standards for immeasurable, very difficult to replicate in any way through gameplay. However, staff have made a good point that we can't just slap on immeasurable because the situation is confusing, or because it's hard to determine what's going on speedwise.

Is it harder for games to show through gameplay? Yes.

But we can't just give more wiggle room to a game because it's harder to showcase higher speeds within its gameplay. Staff members even gave an example of a story driven RPG with lore statements that fit the requirement.

If sonic 06 doesn't do that, saying something like, "but why would game devs design gameplay to specifically meet these standards?" is essentially a non-argument. The why doesn't matter, all we know is that they didn't showcase the proper requirements through gameplay, lore, or narrative.

At the risk of sounding rude, I ask that the pro-immeasurable side please stop stone walling with circular arguments. Frankly, it's become clear at this point, even to a regular member like myself, that you guys simply won't accept or try to understand any explanation or argument that staff gives you.

And I know I have no right to say such things nor any power over any of you, because if anything I'm new here, but it just feels like things have gotten out of hand, and that those in favor of immeasurable are lashing out with passive aggression.

Now that I've said my piece, I'll just wrap things up by saying that I agree with the downgrade and adding temporal AoE.

Again, sorry if I seemed rude.

You weren't rude at all, but didn't you read my last post? I adress how even though Immeasruable isn't explicitely force-fed to us, it's still the only remaining alternative, as it's supported by the feat seen before the fight and temporal AoE by itself doesn't cut it. I've also made a summary that sums up why. One staff member even admitted that immeasurable speed does allow to keep up with Solaris and his super-dimensional physiology. I understand the staff's explenation, but the problem is that it doesn’t add up, and what they're replacing it with is nowhere near enough to match let alone defeat Solaris. Until the anti-immeasurable members can start agreeing with each other, removing immeasurable speed makes no sense, especially if it's to be replaced with a finite speed value

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I don't think the staff really gave good arguments to explain how characters with finite speed can dodge attacks fast enough to travel through time casually.

But, eh.

Like I said, the whole situation with Solaris is tricky. But going from what I've read, there's several aspects of the attacks that are just hard to figure out how they work. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers with how the attacks work, but he does target three characters that are essentially at different points of time altogether, and the attack is shown in the same spot even when you switch to different characters during the fight, correct?

All I could think to say with what I've gathered reading, is that the attacks span throughout all time, but only cover a small spacial range. So their temporal and spacial ranges are very specific. The only explanation that would make even a little sense is that the attacks is temporally everywhere, but that the attacks physical aspects covers a specific range at an actual measurable speed. But even that sounds like utter nonsense, and I'm the one who typed it out.

The attacks also don't seem to "last" forever despite encompassing multiple points of time at once. So perhaps the temporal attacks Solaris is capable of, don't have long lasting or permanent effects throughout time. At least not in any way that would grant immeasurable reactions or movement to characters who avoided the temporal attack.

But everything I said is essentially guesswork and assumptions. Things like immeasurable speed aren't my strong suit, even if I have a decent understanding of it. The problem is simply that the tight requirements for Immeasurable just don't match up with what is shown in the gameplay or narrative of 06.

It leaves Solaris and the hogs in a weird position, but we can't just give them immeasurable because they are an odd case compared to most.

At the end of the day, if nothing can be dug up to match immeasurable's requirements through gameplay shown or story/narrative, then unfortunately the buck stops there.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I write in big paragraphs to make people see the bigger picture. How else are we supposed to stop going in circles?

Don't really care about the arguments rn since no one bothered to tell me when I asked earlier however this doesn't help. People aren't going to see a "bigger picture" because for the most part they won't bother reading it as it's unnecessarily long, big paragraphs also don't prevent an argument from going in circles.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Don't really care about the arguments rn since no one bothered to tell me when I asked earlier however this doesn't help.

What did you ask? Didn't you only post once in this entire thread? All I remember seeing you say is that Sonic is 10-C while Chad Lilac is 1-A

People aren't going to see a "bigger picture" because for the most part they won't bother reading it as it's unnecessarily long, big paragraphs also don't prevent an argument from going in circles.

If they're not willing to see the info from both sides, then they shouldn't partake in this. It's exhausting, but what other solution is there? I was genuinely asking. If you think there's a better way to do this, I wanna know it

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Like I said, the whole situation with Solaris is tricky. But going from what I've read, there's several aspects of the attacks that are just hard to figure out how they work. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers with how the attacks work, but he does target three characters that are essentially at different points of time altogether, and the attack is shown in the same spot even when you switch to different characters during the fight, correct?

All I could think to say with what I've gathered reading, is that the attacks span throughout all time, but only cover a small spacial range. So their temporal and spacial ranges are very specific. The only explanation that would make even a little sense is that the attacks is temporally everywhere, but that the attacks physical aspects covers a specific range at an actual measurable speed. But even that sounds like utter nonsense, and I'm the one who typed it out.

The attacks also don't seem to "last" forever despite encompassing multiple points of time at once. So perhaps the temporal attacks Solaris is capable of, don't have long lasting or permanent effects throughout time. At least not in any way that would grant immeasurable reactions or movement to characters who avoided the temporal attack.

You know what? Sure. I said that Solaris would have to be an idiot in order to only target 3 time periods when he exists across all of them, but maybe he is that stupid. I'm open to that possibility. It still doesn't explain how Super Sonic can bypass his reactions to strike his core.

But everything I said is essentially guesswork and assumptions. Things like immeasurable speed aren't my strong suit, even if I have a decent understanding of it. The problem is simply that the tight requirements for Immeasurable just don't match up with what is shown in the gameplay or narrative of 06.

If you haven't read our summaries on the subject, I can send them. They explain how immeasurable is the only option by process of elimination and why temporal AoE doesn't cut it on its own.

It leaves Solaris and the hogs in a weird position, but we can't just give them immeasurable because they are an odd case compared to most.

We can't just give them temporal AoE and a finite speed value either.

At the end of the day, if nothing can be dug up to match immeasurable's requirements through gameplay shown or story/narrative, then unfortunately the bucks stop there

There is. The feat of Shadow and Silver travelling to different time periods. More details at the end of my last big post

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

We can't just give them temporal AoE and a finite speed value either.

But that's the thing. If we're left in this odd middle ground, a very specific thing like immeasurable shouldn't just be given to him. I think arguing that the standards for immeasurable are too strict, really doesn't matter. Just today, another verse meets the standards, and it's also a video game. So it's not like the standards are impossible to find. All I can really say is that if the immeasurable standards are bothersome or too complicated in your opinion, then to try and start a discussion about it. That's really all one could do at that point.

Immeasurable speed is not only a huge speed jump, but even if one argues that Sonic's best speed feats prior to this have always been extremely casual, that shouldn't mean that he just straight up becomes immeasurable at his absolute maximum speed. I agree that it sucks that sonic only can really say that he far above his best MFTL showings, but it makes the most sense here if he isn't meeting the standards for anything higher like immeasurable or infinite speeds.

Lastly, like I said. Even if Solaris attacks throughout all of time at once, he still only covers a specific spacial range, and that physical and spacial aspect of his attack is what muddies things up.

I wish Solaris had used some all-encompassing, omnidirectional time/space attack, because at least then it would be more clear cut. But that isn't that case.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

If they're not willing to see the info from both sides, then they shouldn't partake in this. It's exhausting, but what other solution is there? I was genuinely asking. If you think there's a better way to do this, I wanna know it

There's a concept known as reasonability and no one is reasonably going to sit down a read a thesis essay bible length response over why a fictional rat should have a hypothetical speed tiering, that's just the truth of it. There's plenty of other solutions known as short and concise responses.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

@OverlordDonnelly Your entire argument essentially boils down to the idea that Solaris is temporally omnipresent without having ANY of the benefits that come with it. It's like you're saying he's not temporally omnipresent at all because the way the fight is percieved in gameplay contradicts that idea.

I just want to ask two things from the anti-immeasurable side so we can finally conclude this.

1: Cal and Duedate should work out their differences, as their reasionings behind immeasurable speed being bunk contradict each other to the point that it supports our side
2: Compile all of your evidence against immeasurable in one place. Obviously, it's too much to ask of people to read this whole thread from start to finish, so instead, both sides should fully explain thier POV in one board of their own.
3: Once the evidence for both sides is compiled in one place, pro-immeasurables and anti-immeasurables should state thier concession conditions. (More details coming soon)

 

[Peptocoptr27]

There's a concept known as reasonability and no one is reasonably going to sit down a read a thesis essay bible length response over why a fictional rat should have a hypothetical speed tiering, that's just the truth of it. There's plenty of other solutions known as short and concise responses.

It lead us nowhere for 7 pages, so that alone isn't enough. This topic is too complex and we're already in too deep. You're only making it worse by bringing attention to it. Now a whole page is gonna be filled by our non-sense back and forth if this keeps going

 

[MysticMania]

Has my question been answered yet, by chance? I'm really sorry for asking, but I know some people keep bringing this up.

DueDate, I'm sorry for asking again, but your main issue is that we never see them get hit and then dodge the same attack, right? But why would we need to see that, or have it implied if it happened in the past? By the time we're already moving Super Sonic to avoid another attack, he's already "unstruck" himself from the past attack via avoiding it with immeasurable, and thus, there's no reason to show it in the first place. And like User has said, there's no reason for 06 to show or imply such a thing to begin with.

I just genuinely feel there's zero reason for it to be shown or implied. We're dodging the attacks the entire time, so there's no need for us to see a past Sonic do what you've already been doing for 10 or so minutes. If they were getting hit by past attacks in general, meaning they wouldn't be able to dodge them afterwards, then yeah, that'd be worth bringing up. If they have immeasurable though, then they can dodge said attacks in the past, and thus, there's no reason to mention it. I could be wrong of course, and please let me know how if I am, but I just don't see why simplistic dodging would need to be emphasised. "Oh wow, that attack hit me in the past, but then I dodged it!" If you were to dodge it, which is only possible with immeasurable speed, then there's no reason to say it hit you whatsoever, because now, it never has hit you, if that makes sense. We know Solaris and his attacks, plus body, etc., are all Temporally Omnipresent, so his attacks coming from all of time is still a factor. Either the hedgehogs do get hit, and never dodge the past attacks at all due to their lack of immeasurable ( which is impossible, do to them actually defeating Solaris ), or they have immeasurable and dodge the attacks, meaning they never got hit in the past to begin with.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Your entire argument essentially boils down to the idea that Solaris is temporally omnipresent without having ANY of the benefits that come with it. It's like you're saying he's not temporally omnipresent at all because the way the fight is percieved in gameplay contradicts that idea.

While I don't really have much else to say on the matter, I'd like to point out that there's plenty of characters in fiction that have a "weak" or "bad" version of an otherwise powerful ability or trait; it's not such a farfetched concept. For example, one of most well-known timestoppers can himself be time-stopped during his timestop. Different franchise with different rules, I know, but it at least gets my point across.

The rest of your questions are towards the staff, so with that I suppose I've said my piece.

I'll likely be more silent overall from here on, until the thread comes to a close. However I'll be seeing what both sides have to say and paying close attention. For now though, I still agree with the downgrades.

 

[MysticMania]

holy shit i got really happy seeing JoJo stuff here, honestly

 

[Theuser789]

For example, one of most well-known timestoppers can himself be time-stopped during his timestop

No, he can't, that's wrong, Dio only got time stoped by Jotaro after his time stop had already ended, Jotaro simply outsmarted him into thinking his time stop was longer when the fact was he time stoped right after his own time stoped ended, I already gave up arguing on this thread but don't use false examples bro

 

[Theuser789]

Don't really care about the arguments rn since no one bothered to tell me when I asked earlier however this doesn't help. People aren't going to see a "bigger picture" because for the most part they won't bother reading it as it's unnecessarily long, big paragraphs also don't prevent an argument from going in circles.

I literally made a summary in page 1 so that people wouldn't complain, how many times do I have to repost it?

Context​

I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here

Misconceptions​

First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional

First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change

First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both

And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier

The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering

---

Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points

First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long

Arguments​

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself

Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:

This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong

Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.

Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.

Conclusion​

The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Dio only got time stoped by Jotaro after his time stop had already ended

So the time stopper was not at all resistant to timestop himself, which still gets my original point across that I was saying to Pepto when drawing my comparison. If Solaris has a really crappy, gutted version of Temporal Omnipresence with few benefits, then I guess it would suck to be them, but it would still make more sense than slapping immeasurable speed onto characters who lack the requirements and are stuck in an awkward middle ground as a result.

As it stands, they don't meet the current standards for immeasurable, and most of the people who are pro-immeasurable have just been repeating statements that have already been responded to. At this point it feels like anything staff answers you all with just won't be good enough, unless they all say, "I concede," in unison.

When things get circular like this, all we should do, is summarize the thoughts of both sides, and call in more more staff for a final say. And if that has already happened, then votes should be tallied.

Not only that, but both parties should, at that point, refrain from replying while decisions are made, unless specifically questioned. Otherwise the cycle will repeat and we'll all be here forever.

 

[Greenshifter]

If Solaris has a really crappy, gutted version of Temporal Omnipresence with few benefits

The opposition’s argument isn’t that he has a crappy version of temporal omnipresence. It’s more in the line of even immeasurable isn’t good enough to dodge his attacks.

That’s why we hate this middle ground, you’re essentially saying Sonic has some super OP thing that lets him fight Solaris equally when even immeasurable speed supposedly wouldn’t (or if you ask other people then finite speed suddenly is enough to fight him) but everything that is proposed as this ability that he has is contradicted. So we have a 100% certainty that just removing immeasurable from his page without adding several other abilities (of which I have seen none that would actually let him fight Solaris equally) would make the page less accurate. Hence we are repeating ourselves ad infinitum.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

When things get circular like this, all we should do, is summarize the thoughts of both sides, and call in more more staff for a final say. And if that has already happened, then votes should be tallied.

Not only that, but both parties should, at that point, refrain from replying while decisions are made, unless specifically questioned. Otherwise the cycle will repeat and we'll all be here forever.

The Pro Immeasurable side literally summerized that. Did you even read the summary that you say all of this? As you yourself already seem to get an opinion on this subject while outright claiming that "I won't read all of these arguments"

People such as Pepto and User literally summerized the arguments. If you still don't want to read them, then this is not their problem.

 

[Theuser789]

So the time stopper was not at all resistant to timestop himself, which still gets my original point across that I was saying to Pepto when drawing my comparison

No because Dio is resistant to it as long as his time stop lasts, he got outsmarted, it's not PIS nor CIS, it's simple in verse weaknesses and outsmarting, your comparassion was just wrong

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I want to ask both sides a question: does being omnipresent across time automatically equal your attacks are this fast?