Undertale Calculations - 90% of them are wrong

[Robo432343]

More calcs for evaluation:
1. Actual 8-C calc
2. Supporting 9-A calc, plus Class M LS

This is a calc group discussion thread talking about the calculation in the OP being unusable. Save any talk about future calcs in a CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is a calc group discussion thread talking about the calculation in the OP being unusable. Save any talk about future calcs in a CRT.

There's literally no rush here, this isn't a CRT and evaluating feats is literally the purpose of this board. Plus let's not talk as if CRTs didn't become new feats-evaluating stuff (FoTNS and Kirby are examples)

 

[Rodriiogo]

Bump (still need the flowey elevator solution choosen by CGMs before closing)
For any CGM reading so they don't need to go back pages:

OP Issues:

Flowey moves an elevator at subsonic speeds
This calculation relies on far too many assumptions. The timeframe used for the kinetic energy is “6.73333333333” seconds, based on the timeframe of the video itself, but that doesn’t hold up. The video does not show the entire thing, it cuts midway through and then time-skips to a point where Frisk is already out of the elevator. The previous version of the calculation attempted to use "15 seconds", but there is zero evidence supporting that number either. We simply do not have a reliable timeframe, so giving it any value is nothing more than headcanon and unjustified overscaling. I also wanna point out that Flowey is shown to be able to use multiple vines, and when the door is closed we see multiple of them covering it, so the feat of lifting in itself would be divided by an unknown amount of vines and would be, therefore, incalculable.

More Issues:

I just think using timeframes on stuff like this where there's timeskips is eh?
I mean even going RIGHT AFTER the "elevator feat", the next elevator takes you this distance:

in around four frames.
The timeframes are obviously all over the place imo unless you think this elevator is somehow faster than every other elevator in the underground by dozens of times

Toby just didn't wanna waste time and wanted to skip right to the finale of the story so he didn't wanna make people have to walk ALLLL the way back to new home and through it or wait a long time between travels
Or when you go on the long elevator the second time, the timeframe changes and is much faster, Toby was actively speeding up stuff at the end otherwise it'd be a walking + waiting simulator.

The argument from the other side currently is:

The violent shaking of the screen with the lights in the elevator blaring and the screen fading to white shortly after actually means it was going really slowly, like snail's pace, this was the narrative intent i assure you.

Anyways if you want a non-snarky answer it's because earlier in the game when you go up the same elevator the ride is much slower, even infamously having the track that plays during that moment being called "long elevator".

And this is my counter:

I don't believe it was going insanely slow, I believe it was going above the average elevator speed sure, that's why it was shaking, howerver, an elevator wouldn't handle speeds at even 10m/s. That's already insanely fast for an elevator. The calculation is going for an INSANELY high speed (279.11m/s) with an unsupported timeframe is my issue. It being "fast" doesn't mean it supports it being 279.11m/s fast, as "fast" for an elevator to start shaking? 10m/s is already more than enough. The average fast elevator doesn't even go past 3m/s.

Small issue. First off, that's an elevator that is going at the average speed of a elevator (1-3m/s) ofc it'd take time. Second off, that elevators ride starts a whole 644.66 meters nearer the destination when compared to where the true lab's elevator is used to be in the calculation. This example just actually makes the idea of the intent being it taking "15 seconds" even more ridiculous. This examples don't work in my opinion.

My stance remains the same:

I think it's better to just remove the feat entirely, at least for now, unless/until someone brings up a valid way of getting timeframe that doesn't rely on such faulty assumptions.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

bump

 

[M3X_2.0]

Bump (still need the flowey elevator solution choosen by CGMs before closing)
For any CGM reading so they don't need to go back pages:

OP Issues:


More Issues:


The argument from the other side currently is:


And this is my counter:


My stance remains the same:

I agree with the OP and the other issues with the calcs. I don't have any interest in calcing it or whatever though

 

[Rodriiogo]

I'm not sure if the other cgms agree with removing the calc as of right now so I will wait for confirmation

 

[Armorchompy]

I think if other 9-A feats exist for the higher tiers the elevator is fine to keep as support.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I think if other 9-A feats exist for the higher tiers the elevator is fine to keep as support.

How can it be recalculated though? The timeframe is completely unknown, the only usable thing from there would be just calculating the shaking of the elevator on screen as joakin said.

The feat itself is just a big question mark

 

[Armorchompy]

How can it be recalculated though? The timeframe is completely unknown, the only usable thing from there would be just calculating the shaking of the elevator on screen as joakin said.

The feat itself is just a big question mark

I don't think it should be recalculated. The timeframe being questionable doesn't make it immediately wrong. It's possibly wrong - but just as possibly fine

 

[Rodriiogo]

I don't think it should be recalculated. The timeframe being questionable doesn't make it immediately wrong. It's possibly wrong - but just as possibly fine

Can we even use "questionable timeframes" for main feats that change an entire category of the verse's scaling? This seems like just inflating the verse.
(For Context: Once Mettaton's legs are removed, right now, high tiers will be "Class 50" in LS because of that feat instead of Class 10-5 like the rest of the verse, so the entire verse's LS is getting buffed because of a very very very questionable, and with nothing supporting it, feat)

I think this goes beyond the timeframe being "questionable" it's jsut straight up unsubstantiated since it's "basis" is something that doesn't work because of what I said. If it actually had a decent basis I would agree normally (which is why I asked if someone even has a good basis for such a timeframe which doesn't seem to be the case)

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean I still ultimately think the visuals seem to present it as having happened that fast. The whole point of the scene is "flowey is moving the elevator really fast, it's not the craziest conclusion to say he was indeed, moving it fast".

I dunno I'm not super attached to the feat but I also don't think the arguments that have been made against it have been that effective.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Tbf the long elevator being 20 seconds long point is sorta like arguing that Undyne went from her house to Papyrus' in less than a second cause she crossed 5 meters in less than 1 second in another scene.

 

[Rodriiogo]

I mean I still ultimately think the visuals seem to present it as having happened that fast. The whole point of the scene is "flowey is moving the elevator really fast, it's not the craziest conclusion to say he was indeed, moving it fast".

I dunno I'm not super attached to the feat but I also don't think the arguments that have been made against it have been that effective.

I mean yea I agree that it is moving "fast" when compared to a regular elevator's speed that's fine. But the feat currently says Flowey is moving the elevator at 279.11m/s.
The max speed for a passenger elevator is 20m/s. (And the average is between 1 to 7 meters per second). The current calculation makes Flowey move the elevator over 13x the max speed of the fastest elevator in the entire world.

Another point I forgot to brought up is that the elevator's "shaking" movements that are supposedly being used to prove why it's "moving fast" also happens when the elevator to the true lab loses power. It's the exact same shaking intensity yet it still takes 14 seconds to reach the true lab from the lab (without even counting the initial movement before the power went down), if we use what the current speed is thought to be about that (as they both have the same shaking intensity which is the justification to why it's "fast") it would mean the elevator fell almost 4 kilometers down, when it's supposed to be just a few meters per second logically since it's just the small elevator falling. Take into account that Flowey's elevator starts in the true lab aswell, you'd be saying Flowey moved it from the true lab to the new home IN LESS TIME (6 seconds) than an elevator falling with the same shaking intensity (Justification for it's "speed") took to do Lab -> True Lab (14 seconds).

TLDR of why the time makes 0 sense with other elevators:
Falling Elevator after losing power from Lab -> True Lab with the same shaking intensity as Flowey's was producing: 14 seconds travel
Long Elevator traveling from Core -> New Home initial part: 18 seconds travel

What the calc is implying is that Flowey moved from the True Lab, up to the lab, through the entirety of hotlands, through the entirety of the core, through the travel between core and new home, and THE ENTIRETY of new home's distance in 6 seconds.

I think it's fine to say the elevator is moving fast when compared to the average elevator obviously. But streching and making up timeframes to get 279.11m/s is straight up absurd and just logically inconsistent with the rest of the "elevators timeframes" in the verse as I showed (and in other messages aswell) etc etc.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Ill check back on the skibidi elevator thing

 

[Dalesean027]

If any of the recalcs got accepted in this thread then those should be mentioned the OP but otherwise I think everything presented there is fine to be axed and/or replaced accordingly as per the discussions had through the thread.

 

[ElJoaki5]

If any of the recalcs got accepted in this thread then those should be mentioned the OP but otherwise I think everything presented there is fine to be axed and/or replaced accordingly as per the discussions had through the thread.

May I ask you what you think should be done with the elevator calc?

 

[ElJoaki5]

I think its clear that the in-game timeframe isn’t accurate, when the cut happens you can hear the sound of the elevator still going off which from the start gave me the impression that the elevator kept moving after the whitescreen. That would already make the current calc invalid in my opinion.

The one thing we have for the speed is that the elevator moved fast. Ofc we can't use this to say it was moving at mach 0.8 or any arbitrary really high speed for that matter since sadly the timeframe is unknown and we truly have no clues to it. I can see that, and if other cgms agree to it yeah it can be changed.

The bare minimum would be to scale the elevator above actual elevator speed or of course you could also go off the shaking as i initially said, at that point it might be higher.

(Final message for real real now)

 

[Qurbonboev]

The bare minimum would be to scale the elevator above actual elevator speed or of course you could also go off the shaking as i initially said, at that point it might be higher.

I calced feat using shaking. KE unsurprisingly went down to 9-B, but LS increased by x2.58 times

 

[ElJoaki5]

I calced feat using shaking. KE unsurprisingly went down to 9-B, but LS increased by x2.58 times

If the shaking is a mere 12 m/s you could make and end with the speed of a highspeed elevator which would be a bit higher

 

[Qurbonboev]

If the shaking is a mere 12 m/s you could make and end with the speed of a highspeed elevator which would be a bit higher

Fastest elevator is only 20 m/s. AP would still firmly lie in 9-B realm. LS would increase, if we assume that such speed was reached in one frame, and I don't think we could reasonably make such an assumption.
(And for purposes of LS scaling I already have much more important feat in my sleeve, that awaits evaluation)

 

[Rodriiogo]

I calced feat using shaking. KE unsurprisingly went down to 9-B, but LS increased by x2.58 times

This is way better in my opinion, seems fine by me. However I still think the result should be divided by the amount of vines to apply it to Flowey's LS.

(And for purposes of LS scaling I already have much more important feat in my sleeve, that awaits evaluation)

I think this lays on the same issue of the mettaton leg feat by the way. Won't talk about it much since I already have a thread to talk about feats like this and battle box feats in general ready to be posted once this calc thread is over (alongside applying the stuff talked here lol), but do wanna note that I don't think is valid.

 

[Qurbonboev]

However I still think the result should be divided by the amount of vines.

Why? We are trying to calculate Flowey max possible LS, we don't care at all about LS of one individual wine. If you are interested, calculate it yourself, but it has no bearing on scaling at all

I already have a thread to talk about feats like this and battle box feats in general ready to be posted

At least it won't take too long, since only this feat remains

 

[Rodriiogo]

Why? We are trying to calculate Flowey max possible LS, we don't care at all about LS of one individual wine. If you are interested, calculate it yourself, but it has no bearing on scaling at all

Because in profiles we don't take into account LS using multiple "attacks" as the baseline of the character. Flowey's LS on his profile should be of a singular vine, he can get to higher via stacking vines but that's irrelevant for the profile's baseline (and for the verse in general). It's like giving a character that can grow limbs the lifting strength value of when hes using 10 limbs as his baseline when he uses 2 normally, no one should scale to multiple of Flowey's vines but they (high tiers) should scale to 1.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because in profiles we don't take into account LS using multiple "attacks" as the baseline of the character. Flowey's LS on his profile should be of a singular vine, he can get to higher via stacking vines but that's irrelevant for the profile's baseline (and for the verse in general). It's like giving a character that can grow limbs the lifting strength value of when hes using 10 limbs as his baseline when he uses 2 normally, no one should scale to multiple of Flowey's vines but they (high tiers) should scale to 1.

How about nobody scales to Flowey's vines at all?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Because in profiles we don't take into account LS using multiple "attacks" as the baseline of the character. Flowey's LS on his profile should be of a singular vine, he can get to higher via stacking vines but that's irrelevant for the profile. It's like giving a character that can grow limbs the lifting strength value of when hes using 10 limbs as his baseline when he uses 2 normally, no one should scale to multiple of Flowey's vines but they (high tiers) should scale to 1.

Then say how many wines do you think he used there.
If you don't know, his LS would be just:
"[Whatever value he gets by upscaling from weaker characters] physically, Unknown with one wine, up to [Elevator feat value] with all of them"
I don't care either way, all characters that scale to Flowey in LS, would scale to full value of feat either way

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

How about nobody scales to Flowey's vines at all?

Only Asgore does anyway.

 

[Qurbonboev]

no one should scale to multiple of Flowey's vines but they (high tiers) should scale to 1.

Lmao, no. Asgore, Toriel and Frisk with high determination would obviously upscale from max LS strength of Flowey. Otherwise we have ridiculous situation where Flowey (character who does restrains with wines in character) have enough LS to restrain peeps he wants to kill, but doesn't do it for some reasons

 

[Rodriiogo]

Then say how many wines do you think he used there.
If you don't know, his LS would be just:
"[Whatever value he gets by upscaling from weaker characters] physically, Unknown with one wine, up to [Elevator feat value] with all of them"
I don't care either way, all characters that scale to Flowey in LS, would scale to full value of feat either way

I'm pretty sure it'd just be "whatever value one vine is", higher with multiple vines (elevator value) because of the UES making one vine scale to his physicals no? Or does that not apply to Flowey? I dislike the UES in general so I'm not sure.

Lmao, no. Asgore, Toriel and Frisk with high determination would obviously upscale from max LS strength of Flowey. Otherwise we have ridiculous situation where Flowey (character who does restrains with wines in character) have enough LS to restrain peeps he wants to kill, but doesn't do it for some reasons

Them being able to beat to him doesn't mean they can libertate themselves from like 20 vines at the same time? Are you saying they can't dodge Flowey's vines or just get out of one at at time or, hell, Asgore and Toriel who have magic and are shown to be able to use magic even when restrained cant just blast each vine? Why are you going for the highest end for no reason that he somehow is even able to restrain them in DOZENS of vines in the first place without them doing anything?

 

[Rodriiogo]

Anyways, I just need Dale to confirm that he agrees with deleting the current calculation for Flowey's feat (since he kinda made it vague if he agrees or not with the removal of it). If he does agree, then this thread can be closed afterwards since that would already be 3 cgms agreeing.

Scaling and Chainscaling stuff can be talked about in the CRT.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Scaling and Chainscaling stuff can be talked about in the CRT.

Ok

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll sign off on any conclusion other CGMs reach. If they agree the elevator feat isn't usable I won't debate against dropping it though I personally think it's okay-ish.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I'll sign off on any conclusion other CGMs reach. If they agree the elevator feat isn't usable I won't debate against dropping it though I personally think it's okay-ish.

I calced feat using shaking. KE unsurprisingly went down to 9-B, but LS increased by x2.58 times

What you think off trying to calc feat using shaking?(it's not total replacement, since it tackles different part of feat, so both of them can can exist simultaneously)

 

[ElJoaki5]

Fastest elevator is only 20 m/s. AP would still firmly lie in 9-B realm. LS would increase, if we assume that such speed was reached in one frame, and I don't think we could reasonably make such an assumption.
(And for purposes of LS scaling I already have much more important feat in my sleeve, that awaits evaluation)

Im not sure if calcing LS from shaking is valid

 

[StrymULTRA]

Im not sure if calcing LS from shaking is valid

I mean you do extert force when skaking something, no? Lifting a dumbbell is technically shaking it but slower.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Im not sure if calcing LS from shaking is valid

Validity of shaking for LS depends on source of shaking.
If shaking is results of someone striking the ground, it's obviously unusable for LS.
But if shaking is result of someone pulling and pushing heavy object it should be usable for LS

 

[Dalesean027]

The shaking version is fine though I disagree with the LS part of it, as said above its done with an unknown amount of vines whilst also not even actually taking account the work flowey actually would have done. It calculates the raw force in newtons of elevators shaking which like would be fine if we actually went through the next step of calculating the actual amount of distance the work over to scale to floweys LS but since we don't actually see it its basically just inflated and should be discarded

 

[Qurbonboev]

as said above its done with an unknown amount of vines

Yeah, it would be noted on the profile

It calculates the raw force in newtons of elevators shaking which like would be fine if we actually went through the next step of calculating the actual amount of distance the work over to scale to floweys

Wdym?!? Raw force in newtons of elevators shaking is LS. We need to do Force = Work/Distance if calc measured joules of work (instead of newtons). But since calc measured newtons of force (by multiplying acceleration to mass) we don't need to do it at all.

 

[ElJoaki5]

However if you were to use the linear speed of the elevator and use the timeframe i explained some comments ago LS would be fine. It would also increase KE a bit.

 

[Qurbonboev]

However if you were to use the linear speed of the elevator and use the timeframe i explained some comments ago LS would be fine. It would also increase KE a bit.

You mean like this?

 

[ElJoaki5]

You mean like this?

Yeah (with the updated speed)