Miki Saiki Part 2: Stats

[Antvasima]

What do you think GyroNutz?

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

The topic of Death Manipulation can probably get its own thread, since this one was only meant to cover stats. Someone can message a few staff members from there and discuss whether Miki would be getting that ability.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it seems more convenient to handle both here. Feel free to ask a few discussion moderators and maybe administrators to help out with input though: VS Battles Staff

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

I'll go ahead and message them to comment here, then.

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

So I found Light Yagami's page... he does not have the same powers at all as the Winter Woman does. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Light_Yagami

Specifically, the Death Note uses heart attacks as the primary cause of death, and also disease, suicide, and then causing accidents at times. Having all of those options available allows Yagami to earn Death Manipulation, though Saiki can only ever kill people through car wrecks. Perhaps she could've reached Death Note's level of killing if she stayed alive, but the lack of scenes with her only show what can be considered just Probability Manipulation (though I see your point). I've messaged a few people to make comments on this to see where we stand.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Uh, you realize that he's still choosing when people die which is the Same chase for the Winter Woman right?

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

The main difference is HOW their powers work. Yagami uses primarily heart attacks and suicide to kill his victims, whereas Winter Woman kills through car crashes and her blizzard. Though I do see your point that both can choose to kill their victims, you can't deny that the Death Note gives greater power, so it's better classified as Death Manip than Saiki's limited abilities.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

You realize that heart attacks and suicide are via biological and empathic Manipulation?

I never said they were equal in how they work, I was using death Note to justify and compare the manipulations

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I think majority of the stats are fine and I think Stalker and Ant has a point. It doesn't appear to be Death Manipulation but rather another ability that resulted their deaths.

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Stalker was arguing it IS Death Manipulation, and Ant's kind of off to the side. The main question is if Miki's abilities constitute as such. But so far, it seems almost everyone agrees that what Miki is able to do, even if she kills people, isn't quite Death Manipulation. Causing car accidents is only really Probability Manipulation, and her appearances were too brief to give any more information.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Uh

Why would it be "brief" when we have statements that she can flat control when people die?

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Uh
Why would it be "brief" when we have statements that she can flat control when people die?

Miki's appearances are brief because, as a minor antagonist, she only killed 5 or 6 people in her 3 manga issues? You really did not address that point at all.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

What do you mean by "You really did not address this point at all"?

Hell, you didn't even debunk my main argument at all so can you can actually address that point?

 

[Gemmysaur]

At least one example of Probability Manipulation is her first kill, a lady gets run over by a car when she tries to see her boyfriend [best explained here https://spiderfan.org/review/comics/spiderman_manga/023.html]. The lady rushes to see her boyfriend, ignoring the crosswalk, the car slips on the wet road, and all these events lead to the girl's demise.
Let me get this straight, can she or can she not control ice? Because slipping on the road can be done with a little ice.

Yamano being frozen

Oh so she does have ice powers? Makes sense since she's apparently called the Winter Woman.

From what I remember, Miki flat out states she can choose to kill someone

Anyone with power can choose to kill someone. Even just a guy with a knife.

and Takao with his knife

Details unknown. Could this person have... I dunno, slipped and impaled himself on a knife? Sounds plausible to me, given that she apparently got someone killed via car slipping on wet ground.

They literally state that people drop like flies around her

An ice person lowering the temperature in an area around her can drop people immediately from sudden temperature shifts.

Can anyone give more solid feats of hers? Sounds like her kills are just applications of ice powers.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

What?

She only used her ice powers twice canonically, how does causing a car accident have to anything with ice Manipulation when it wasn't via distortion or causing a wind

Uh, how does the "drops like flies statement" have to do ANYTHING with Ice Manipulation when it's consistently shown that her mere presence kills people and it's via accidents and not ice Manipulation (expect for like 1 example that was incredibly early on when her accident abilities weren't even shown)

And death Manipulation is unironically supported by the fact she's literally meant to be the Goddess of Death and her entire character is based around the idea of death

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Btw, I can post scans later if necessary

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

What?
She only used her ice powers twice canonically, how does causing a car accident have to anything with ice Manipulation when it wasn't via distortion or causing a wind

Well, the last car wreck was probably done by her blizzard (or Probability powers). Here, there appears to be quite a bit of snow and even wind as she car speeds into the pole. Though the manga isn't very clear on what exactly happened.


[And speaking of not being clear on what exactly happened, I think we're accepting that Takao and his knife is a useless scene. With minimal clues, there's no reason to assume anything (or because of minimal clues, we can assume any claim.) Gemmysaur wanted to debunk that sentence of mine, but he only proved my point further.]

Uh, how does the "drops like flies statement" have to do ANYTHING with Ice Manipulation when it's consistently shown that her mere presence kills people and it's via accidents and not ice Manipulation
There's one or two prime examples that she does kill with ice. Remember that she froze a man (Yamano) in his office, and that's accepted as part of her Ice Manipulation. The Winter Woman even almost killed Yu in their first encounter through sheer cold (before leaving in the next scene, sparing our hero). This kind of thing definitely sounds like people can drop like flies from freezing. If the Winter Woman's blizzard, which Yu describes in great detail, doesn't kill people, then something is wrong.

Though back to the topic of Probability Manipulation vs Death Manipulation... A 3rd option seems to be that she has neither because all her kills can be explained with her blizzards. I can see that making sense, unless there's proof that she does control probability.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Scans would be appreciated, so we can actually see how it happened. I mean, there's a specific note on how the car slipped on wet road.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Give me a second, I'm currently on a stream

 

[Antvasima]

@Gemmysaur & Dino

Thank you for helping out.

For the record, I also do not think that she has death manipulation.

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Stalker, when you come back, it might be best if you repeat why Miki has Death Manipulation. From what I gathered, the Winter Woman has Death Manipulation because she can choose to kill someone with her powers, and through accidents. Causing accidents doesn't imply Death Manipulation, which Death Manip would need actual control over death itself (Death Note has this kind of control). Choosing to kill someone can be done by anyone, like Rainbow Dash or Bayonetta or Jeff the Killer, powers or not. That's not a real argument.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Ant No problem. Just helping as much as I can.

 

[Antvasima]

So should somebody update the page then? This seems to have dragged out for long enough.

 

[GyroNutz]

Stalker, when you come back, it might be best if you repeat why Miki has Death Manipulation. From what I gathered, the Winter Woman has Death Manipulation because she can choose to kill someone with her powers, and through accidents. Causing accidents doesn't imply Death Manipulation, which Death Manip would need actual control over death itself (Death Note has this kind of control). Choosing to kill someone can be done by anyone, like Rainbow Dash or Bayonetta or Jeff the Killer, powers or not. That's not a real argument.

I agree with this

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

So should somebody update the page then? This seems to have dragged out for long enough.

Well, I already removed the Death Manipulation after my first thread concluded, and Miki has her stats now that we agreed on here. The only other thing to update is whether or not she has Probability Manipulation, though the lacking of context for her kills might remove her Probability Manipulation... Could we make it "possible Probability Manip" at least?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that might be a good idea.

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

What do the others think about it? I was kind of hoping for some more discussion on whether the Woman of Winter has Probability Manipulation.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Sorry for the delays, I'll try to make a comment tomorrow. I've been very busy on the DJW

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Whenever you're ready to try justifying Death Manipulation... Though keep in mind I've read the whole arc, so it'll be hard saying much against me.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

"Well, the last car wreck was probably done by her blizzard (or Probability powers). Here, there appears to be quite a bit of snow and even wind as she car speeds into the pole. Though the manga isn't very clear on what exactly happened"

>Why would we just assume that the weather was reasonable for that? She's causing a car accident and we literally don't see that the weather pushed the car. Hell, what about the train accident she causes? Nothing implies that it has to do with weather


"There's one or two prime examples that she does kill with ice. Remember that she froze a man (Yamano) in his office, and that's accepted as part of her Ice Manipulation. The Winter Woman even almost killed Yu in their first encounter through sheer cold (before leaving in the next scene, sparing our hero). This kind of thing definitely sounds like people can drop like flies from freezing. If the Winter Woman's blizzard, which Yu describes in great detail, doesn't kill people, then something is wrong."

>I'm aware that she killed two people with Ice Manipulation

And everyone else died via accidents.

"Though back to the topic of Probability Manipulation vs Death Manipulation... A 3rd option seems to be that she has neither because all her kills can be explained with her blizzards. I can see that making sense, unless there's proof that she does control probability."

>First off, you don't need a full on statement on being able to control probability in order to have probability Manipulation. Otherwise Slenderman wouldn't have it. And they are both via accidents

"Stalker, when you come back, it might be best if you repeat why Miki has Death Manipulation. From what I gathered, the Winter Woman has Death Manipulation because she can choose to kill someone with her powers, and through accidents. Causing accidents doesn't imply Death Manipulation, which Death Manip would need actual control over death itself (Death Note has this kind of control). Choosing to kill someone can be done by anyone, like Rainbow Dash or Bayonetta or Jeff the Killer, powers or not. That's not a real argument."

>Expect for the fact that Miki's ENTIRE character is based around the idea of death

>She's literally called the Goddess of Death

>She's stated to be the grim reaper

Also if you wanna argue "ThEsE sTaTeMeNtS aRe HyPeRbOlEs" then ******* how? The entire idea of Miki not having Death Manipulation goes against everything the story is trying to tell with her.

Shall I go on? Also, she does have control over death, she literally states she does in a scan I sent earlier

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Why would we just assume that the weather was reasonable for that? She's causing a car accident and we literally don't see that the weather pushed the car. Hell, what about the train accident she causes? Nothing implies that it has to do with weather

Like I said, you can see snow and wind in the image for the car. That implies a blizzard. If not a blizzard, then explain what all of that is. As for the train... it's a bit more confusing than the first one, but I think I see some snow and wind (or white and lines) around here too [scan is here]. Hopefully other people can give their thoughts on what exactly is happening.

>I'm aware that she killed two people with Ice Manipulation And everyone else died via accidents.
I'm glad you now agree her blizzards can kill people. And since her blizzards can kill people, people will drop around the Woman of Winter that way. It doesn't always have to be cars and trains (which can be explained through the blizzard if someone wanted to).

First off, you don't need a full on statement on being able to control probability in order to have probability Manipulation. Otherwise Slenderman wouldn't have it. And they are both via accidents
We could use a scan that shows that power, though. Does Miki Saiki have anything that's irrefutably Probability Manipulation?

>Expect for the fact that Miki's ENTIRE character is based around the idea of death
>She's literally called the Goddess of Death

>She's stated to be the grim reaper

Also if you wanna argue "ThEsE sTaTeMeNtS aRe HyPeRbOlEs" then ******* how? The entire idea of Miki not having Death Manipulation goes against everything the story is trying to tell with her."
So she killed someone somewhere, not using Probability or her blizzard? I'd like to see that scan. Even if she's called Grim Reaper and Goddess of Death, those names don't mean she can just make someone die out of nowhere (which Death Manipulation would imply). At best, she made someone get ran over with a train using a separate power.

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Here's the description of Death Manipulation for the site:

"The power to manipulate and induce death. In its most straightforward applications, this ability allows the user to instantly kill others by manipulating factors associated with death to make them die. The method varies, however; some users may halt vital biological processes or attack the soul directly. Others affect their target on a more abstract level, simply causing them to die for no discernible reason, though death manipulation comes in many other forms, with some functioning on a conceptual scale. Death manipulation is often associated with necromancy and has a wealth of deeper potential uses and utility in the hands of a skilled user, with many death manipulators having the tools to kill even immortals and those with potent regenerative abilities easily."

Going off of what this Goddess of Death did, she used a blizzard to kill at least Yamano through sheer cold, ran one person over with a car, crashed another car, and ran over a drunk guy with a train. I don't think these count as "factors associated with death". Saiki never halted biological processes or attacked a soul, or just made someone "die for no discernible reason", which would work. Miki Saiki does not have Death Manipulation. At best she has shown deadly Probability Manipulation. (We won't count Takao's death, since the details of his death are unknown.)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Mewtwo makes sense.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

I'll reply when I get something to eat

 

[MasterMewtwo3]

Food is good. Good is food.